LS3 swap into LS6 CTS-V ????
02-01-2011, 08:04 AM
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LS3 swap into LS6 CTS-V ???? Stemming from my camshaft problems disccussed in another thread, I have been offered what seems to be a pretty good deal on a 09' vette complete LS3. I know it would bolt in and alot of the accessories would work. Is there anything huge I should be concerned about in the swap? My biggest concerns are harness, flywheel, clutch, wiring changes? Was'nt originally planning on going this route, so it is all a bit new to me. Please enlighten me. Thanks.
02-01-2011, 08:17 AM
#2
Yes. Do NOT use the Lingenfelter module. I know it's "version 2" but my experiences were horrible with them and their product, service wise, and many of the updated versions still had problems. Left me stranded many times. Spend the money and have a good shop pull your crank and swap reluctor wheels while the motor is out, that's your 100% reliable solution. The rest of the stuff is run of the mill.
That said, you WILL love the LS3, it's everything the LS6 is - just more. You'll get 450 to 480 at the wheels with just cam and headers, should you choose to, and the torque is awesome! Even with the cam, I still could get 24-25 cruising on the highway.
That said, you WILL love the LS3, it's everything the LS6 is - just more. You'll get 450 to 480 at the wheels with just cam and headers, should you choose to, and the torque is awesome! Even with the cam, I still could get 24-25 cruising on the highway.
02-01-2011, 09:06 AM
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Yes. Do NOT use the Lingenfelter module. I know it's "version 2" but my experiences were horrible with them and their product, service wise, and many of the updated versions still had problems. Left me stranded many times. Spend the money and have a good shop pull your crank and swap reluctor wheels while the motor is out, that's your 100% reliable solution. The rest of the stuff is run of the mill.
That said, you WILL love the LS3, it's everything the LS6 is - just more. You'll get 450 to 480 at the wheels with just cam and headers, should you choose to, and the torque is awesome! Even with the cam, I still could get 24-25 cruising on the highway.
That said, you WILL love the LS3, it's everything the LS6 is - just more. You'll get 450 to 480 at the wheels with just cam and headers, should you choose to, and the torque is awesome! Even with the cam, I still could get 24-25 cruising on the highway.
02-01-2011, 10:35 AM
#4
Mike,
I got your message. It's not that hard to do. There are just a few issues that need to be addressed.
1. Wrong crank trigger. Two solutions:
A: Go with the Lingenfelter 58 to 24x converter box. I don't know of the problems stated by jmilz28, but it's up to you if you want to go with option B.
B: Remove the crank and install the 24x crank trigger. Change the cam sensor to the 24x (black) sensor)
2. Cam/knock sensor differences
Tap the knock sensor holes to M10 and install LS6 knock sensors in them. Use KAT-4750 cam/knock adapter harness to move the knock sensors to the side of the block and connect the new cam sensor location in the front cover.
3. Wrong cam trigger
You need a 2x cam trigger so you'll need to use the 2005 LS2 sprocket (12576407). The problem with running this in an LS3 is that it's for a three bolt cam so you'll also need to change the camshaft. You can put in an aftermarket cam or pick up a low cost OEM take out such as an LS2 or LS6 cam.
4. Injector connector difference
You'll need KAT-A4758 injector adapters
5. MAP sensor difference
The LS6 uses a Delphi sensor and the LS3 uses Bosch. There are two solutions:
A. Run the Delphi sensor and use a small piece of hose to make up the difference in the grommet diameter. Fabricate a small metal hold down to secure the sensor. You will also need KAT-4751 MAP extension harness since the MAP sensor on the LS3 is located in the front.
B. Run the Bosch sensor and use the KAT-5185 MAP sensor adapter. You will also need to use the KAT-4751 MAP extension.
6. Throttle body difference
Use KAT-4752 throttle body adapter harness.
7. Flywheel/clutch
You will not have any problems because the LS6 and LS3 crankshaft flange location and flywheel bolt pattern is identical. You can use your OEM CTS-V clutch, do an LS7 clutch conversion, or use Katech's new LS9X clutch kit for CTS-V (KAT-A6179).
8. Your front drive accessories from your LS6 will transfer over to the LS3.
9. Oil pressure sensor.
Transfer the oil pressure sensor from your LS6 to the LS3.
10. Canister purge solenoid
Transfer the CPS from your LS6 to the LS3. It connects to the intake manifold in the same location.
I got your message. It's not that hard to do. There are just a few issues that need to be addressed.
1. Wrong crank trigger. Two solutions:
A: Go with the Lingenfelter 58 to 24x converter box. I don't know of the problems stated by jmilz28, but it's up to you if you want to go with option B.
B: Remove the crank and install the 24x crank trigger. Change the cam sensor to the 24x (black) sensor)
2. Cam/knock sensor differences
Tap the knock sensor holes to M10 and install LS6 knock sensors in them. Use KAT-4750 cam/knock adapter harness to move the knock sensors to the side of the block and connect the new cam sensor location in the front cover.
3. Wrong cam trigger
You need a 2x cam trigger so you'll need to use the 2005 LS2 sprocket (12576407). The problem with running this in an LS3 is that it's for a three bolt cam so you'll also need to change the camshaft. You can put in an aftermarket cam or pick up a low cost OEM take out such as an LS2 or LS6 cam.
4. Injector connector difference
You'll need KAT-A4758 injector adapters
5. MAP sensor difference
The LS6 uses a Delphi sensor and the LS3 uses Bosch. There are two solutions:
A. Run the Delphi sensor and use a small piece of hose to make up the difference in the grommet diameter. Fabricate a small metal hold down to secure the sensor. You will also need KAT-4751 MAP extension harness since the MAP sensor on the LS3 is located in the front.
B. Run the Bosch sensor and use the KAT-5185 MAP sensor adapter. You will also need to use the KAT-4751 MAP extension.
6. Throttle body difference
Use KAT-4752 throttle body adapter harness.
7. Flywheel/clutch
You will not have any problems because the LS6 and LS3 crankshaft flange location and flywheel bolt pattern is identical. You can use your OEM CTS-V clutch, do an LS7 clutch conversion, or use Katech's new LS9X clutch kit for CTS-V (KAT-A6179).
8. Your front drive accessories from your LS6 will transfer over to the LS3.
9. Oil pressure sensor.
Transfer the oil pressure sensor from your LS6 to the LS3.
10. Canister purge solenoid
Transfer the CPS from your LS6 to the LS3. It connects to the intake manifold in the same location.
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Satterly2164 (07-18-2021)
02-01-2011, 08:19 PM
#5
Yes. Do NOT use the Lingenfelter module. I know it's "version 2" but my experiences were horrible with them and their product, service wise, and many of the updated versions still had problems. Left me stranded many times. Spend the money and have a good shop pull your crank and swap reluctor wheels while the motor is out, that's your 100% reliable solution. The rest of the stuff is run of the mill.
That said, you WILL love the LS3, it's everything the LS6 is - just more. You'll get 450 to 480 at the wheels with just cam and headers, should you choose to, and the torque is awesome! Even with the cam, I still could get 24-25 cruising on the highway.
That said, you WILL love the LS3, it's everything the LS6 is - just more. You'll get 450 to 480 at the wheels with just cam and headers, should you choose to, and the torque is awesome! Even with the cam, I still could get 24-25 cruising on the highway.
02-02-2011, 11:54 AM
#6
Jason's reply is spot on, as expected. The only thing he doesn't know of first hand is the multiple failures of the LPE box.
A WELL KNOWN REPUTABLE SHOP here in Houston did my swap on my 98 Z28 about a year ago. LS3 in place of LS1, pretty much addressed each issue Jason outlined one way or the other. LPE box seemed the hot ticket. After a few weeks (when the weather warmed up), the box got hot and went into protect. No crank signal, no running engine. (duh, right?)
Well, since it correlated to heat (I could ice the box and start the car within two minutes), I tried other options. I insulated the box heavily, to no avail. Finally, I broke down and extended the spaghetti and put the box in the cabin. This well known crafter of race cars did the exact same thing on two other cars at the same time. After extending the harness, each car had the exact same issue after a short time. LPE was of little help from a customer service standpoint. They eventually (months later) sent version 2 of the box. I heard this didn't fix all of the issues but fixed some - I have no experience directly since I sold the damn car because of this.
So, from my direct experience, the box is a great concept executed poorly. LPE's customer service blows, or at least did at the time - and this is at a well thought of shop and good customer of LPE.
I suggest you spend the extra 500-1000 bones and swap reluctors. Yeah, do a cam too, unless you put lots of miles on the car. If this is a daily driver, do a lower lift cam for valvespring life. If not, cam it up, you will LOVE it.
Katech is not the cheapest option but their work and advice is reliable and that is worth a lot. I can tell you their tensioner is amazing quality!
Hope this is helpful.
02-02-2011, 02:21 PM
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Mike,
Jason's reply is spot on, as expected. The only thing he doesn't know of first hand is the multiple failures of the LPE box.
A WELL KNOWN REPUTABLE SHOP here in Houston did my swap on my 98 Z28 about a year ago. LS3 in place of LS1, pretty much addressed each issue Jason outlined one way or the other. LPE box seemed the hot ticket. After a few weeks (when the weather warmed up), the box got hot and went into protect. No crank signal, no running engine. (duh, right?)
Well, since it correlated to heat (I could ice the box and start the car within two minutes), I tried other options. I insulated the box heavily, to no avail. Finally, I broke down and extended the spaghetti and put the box in the cabin. This well known crafter of race cars did the exact same thing on two other cars at the same time. After extending the harness, each car had the exact same issue after a short time. LPE was of little help from a customer service standpoint. They eventually (months later) sent version 2 of the box. I heard this didn't fix all of the issues but fixed some - I have no experience directly since I sold the damn car because of this.
So, from my direct experience, the box is a great concept executed poorly. LPE's customer service blows, or at least did at the time - and this is at a well thought of shop and good customer of LPE.
I suggest you spend the extra 500-1000 bones and swap reluctors. Yeah, do a cam too, unless you put lots of miles on the car. If this is a daily driver, do a lower lift cam for valvespring life. If not, cam it up, you will LOVE it.
Katech is not the cheapest option but their work and advice is reliable and that is worth a lot. I can tell you their tensioner is amazing quality!
Hope this is helpful.
Jason's reply is spot on, as expected. The only thing he doesn't know of first hand is the multiple failures of the LPE box.
A WELL KNOWN REPUTABLE SHOP here in Houston did my swap on my 98 Z28 about a year ago. LS3 in place of LS1, pretty much addressed each issue Jason outlined one way or the other. LPE box seemed the hot ticket. After a few weeks (when the weather warmed up), the box got hot and went into protect. No crank signal, no running engine. (duh, right?)
Well, since it correlated to heat (I could ice the box and start the car within two minutes), I tried other options. I insulated the box heavily, to no avail. Finally, I broke down and extended the spaghetti and put the box in the cabin. This well known crafter of race cars did the exact same thing on two other cars at the same time. After extending the harness, each car had the exact same issue after a short time. LPE was of little help from a customer service standpoint. They eventually (months later) sent version 2 of the box. I heard this didn't fix all of the issues but fixed some - I have no experience directly since I sold the damn car because of this.
So, from my direct experience, the box is a great concept executed poorly. LPE's customer service blows, or at least did at the time - and this is at a well thought of shop and good customer of LPE.
I suggest you spend the extra 500-1000 bones and swap reluctors. Yeah, do a cam too, unless you put lots of miles on the car. If this is a daily driver, do a lower lift cam for valvespring life. If not, cam it up, you will LOVE it.
Katech is not the cheapest option but their work and advice is reliable and that is worth a lot. I can tell you their tensioner is amazing quality!
Hope this is helpful.
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02-02-2011, 08:32 PM
#8
Most agree that the swap requires the crank go to a machine shop, YMMV. Since the engine is already out, you'll save some savings - but it's not a cheapie deal. Better than being stuck in the road in traffic multiple times, I can vouch for that.
Cam is pure choice. Valve springs have gimproved but you will still only get 30-50k out of a set, if you're easy on them. These LS3 heads love high lift and it makes it hard not to do it. With folks like EPS/PatG, LMR, and Vengeance specing such great cams with little to no downside, it's hard NOT to cam it up. Really, the only downsides are two:
1. Changing valvesprings (NOT cheap) becomes regular maintenance. Usually, you also get a sewing machine noise as a bonus with a high lift cam. I hated that 95% of the time, forgot about it the 5% of the time I had it matted.
2. You'll get the cam/hot rod exhaust/fuel smell no matter what you do. If you have a woman that cares, this can be a consideration.
Properly tuned, you won't suffer much in MPG or manners so there's no real downside there.
Cam is pure choice. Valve springs have gimproved but you will still only get 30-50k out of a set, if you're easy on them. These LS3 heads love high lift and it makes it hard not to do it. With folks like EPS/PatG, LMR, and Vengeance specing such great cams with little to no downside, it's hard NOT to cam it up. Really, the only downsides are two:
1. Changing valvesprings (NOT cheap) becomes regular maintenance. Usually, you also get a sewing machine noise as a bonus with a high lift cam. I hated that 95% of the time, forgot about it the 5% of the time I had it matted.
2. You'll get the cam/hot rod exhaust/fuel smell no matter what you do. If you have a woman that cares, this can be a consideration.
Properly tuned, you won't suffer much in MPG or manners so there's no real downside there.
02-03-2011, 07:53 PM
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I have been thinking of the same now that the Sun Journal is having some hard time. After all, we can see that there are lots of other factors as well that come into play here namely the importance of buying servers, to maintain the overall appearance and function of the news design website. Even though that is not negotiable until and unless some help is offered, I am sure that they could make it out!
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cheap presentation folders
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Talk about off topic 
02-04-2011, 12:13 AM
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We did the Swap in a few cars already.
I believe the first car was a LS2 V that came to us with no motor an we installed a LS3 in it and used the Lingfelter set-up and as far as I know the owner never had a problem with it.
Then we did my 00 Z28 as well and again used the Lingenfelter controller and I have not had one problem with it at all. I believe when we did my car we took the controler apart and filled it with silicone or something (my friend did it before I picked it up and wired it in so I am not 100% positive on that one I would have to ask him)
If you would like send me a PM and I can send ya a copy of what a bone stock dyno sheet will look like for ya.
I
I believe the first car was a LS2 V that came to us with no motor an we installed a LS3 in it and used the Lingfelter set-up and as far as I know the owner never had a problem with it.
Then we did my 00 Z28 as well and again used the Lingenfelter controller and I have not had one problem with it at all. I believe when we did my car we took the controler apart and filled it with silicone or something (my friend did it before I picked it up and wired it in so I am not 100% positive on that one I would have to ask him)
If you would like send me a PM and I can send ya a copy of what a bone stock dyno sheet will look like for ya.
I
02-05-2011, 02:31 PM
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The lingenfelter module prevents from having to change the reluctor wheel on the crank. Does it also prevent from having to change the camshaft as described by Katech earlier in the post?
03-10-2011, 11:32 AM
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I'm also about to start swapping an ls3 into my ls6 cts-v. I already have a brand new ls3 with the ls3 wiring harness, ecu, and sensors. Will I need anything else for the swap as far as electronics are concerned? Will the ls3 ecu work with the cts-v gauges and features?
06-06-2011, 10:19 AM
#17
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Bumping this a couple months later, as I blew up my LS6 this weekend at VIR and I'm looking at options. The summary of issues and fixes posted by Jason @ Katech is excellent!
There's a guy over on cadillacforums that had an LS3 installed by Jesse @ wait4me early last year. Jesse posted this in the thread:
Does the Katech TB harness adapter (KAT-4752) take care of the issue Jesse was referring to? I haven't seen anyone else make any mention of such a significant issue with the TB, so I'm guessing in the year since Jesse did the install people have figured out how to fix the difference in the TBs?
There's a guy over on cadillacforums that had an LS3 installed by Jesse @ wait4me early last year. Jesse posted this in the thread:
This swap will be pretty much impossible for others to do if they are going to run the full motor with the throttlbody and everything. The computer needed major changing even after the 58k converter was used, to make all the 2004 computer work with it. When you try, it will shut off any time you touch the gas. In the future, i will post the raw hex segment i modified to make it work without failure.. The conversion of pedal to throttle opening is way off if you dont. so it thinks it is stuck open.
11-08-2012, 11:04 AM
#18
Good info.
On number 3. above, could you redrill/machine for the one bolt LS3 cam?(I know, you are already in their replacing the crank trigger, so might as well replace the cam and sprocket together; right?)
Pricing:
1. 24x Crank Trigger Free of LS6, $150 new
2. Cam/Knock Sensor Katech harness KAT-4750 , $60
3. Cam Trigger LS2 Sprocket GM # 12576407 $30
3. New Cam Free Takeout, $?
4. Injector diff Katech KAT-A4758 injector adapters, $70
5. MAP sensor diff Katech KAT-4751 MAP $60
6. Throttle body diff Katech KAT-4752 throttle body adapter harness, $50
7. Flywheel clutch Free to $?
8. Accessories None
9. Oil pressure sensor. None.
10. Canister purge sole None.
11. Cost of LS3 Free to $???
So $270 from Katech and $150 for the Crank trigger.
Not bad.....there will be other cost that are alot higher....lol
On number 3. above, could you redrill/machine for the one bolt LS3 cam?(I know, you are already in their replacing the crank trigger, so might as well replace the cam and sprocket together; right?)
Pricing:
1. 24x Crank Trigger Free of LS6, $150 new
2. Cam/Knock Sensor Katech harness KAT-4750 , $60
3. Cam Trigger LS2 Sprocket GM # 12576407 $30
3. New Cam Free Takeout, $?
4. Injector diff Katech KAT-A4758 injector adapters, $70
5. MAP sensor diff Katech KAT-4751 MAP $60
6. Throttle body diff Katech KAT-4752 throttle body adapter harness, $50
7. Flywheel clutch Free to $?
8. Accessories None
9. Oil pressure sensor. None.
10. Canister purge sole None.
11. Cost of LS3 Free to $???
So $270 from Katech and $150 for the Crank trigger.
Not bad.....there will be other cost that are alot higher....lol
