How much strength, if any would cryo treatment add to an aluminum block? If we were doing an all out build and didn't want to add the weight of the iron block, could cryo significantly increase the strength of the alum. block and limit or eliminate distortion?
on that video, the guy mentioned they WILL NOT do "used" gears......that seems rather stupid as I know PERSONALLY I am not about to buy all new gear sets for a tranny if the current ones are in working order (low mileage)....
I have the 4.56 gears out of my 12bolt and I want them done (it would be stupid to buy new gears since these have less than 1K miles on them). Where should I send them?
__________________ Chris
2001 Camaro Z28, 388CI all bore, MM6
its "stock"...ignore the lope.....they all sound like that...
2004 Silverado LS, 5.3Liter, A4 (soon to be T56), 2WD
We will not do used gears because used gears usually have wear ridges in them. The Mikronite process is a surface finishing process that strengthens the outer surface of the material like shot peening but provides a "high-luster" super smooth finish that reduces friction and noise. IT IS NOT A COATING!!! It adds strength in the outer .010 - .014" of the material (verified by x-ray diffraction). Strength in the outer skin of the material is like the strength in a monocoque chassis or an airplane fuselage.
If we processed a used gear set we would make those wear ridges very hard and they would become like hard file teeth and would destroy the rear end. We only want our customers to have success not "self destruct"!
This process has many unique capabilities and that is why it is being used on military applications, many different racing applications (there really are some speed secrets...at least for a little while!), industrial (one company has reduced the number of gun drill bits from 7000/yr to 700/yr), medical, aerospace and others. It is significantly different from REM. Not that REM is bad, but REM does not impart residual compressive stresses in the surface and near surface substrate. Those residual stresses are what strengthen the material. That is what you get in shot peening, but shot peening looks nasty compared to Mikronite. Hope this clears things up a little. If not, come to my seminar at the PRI Show in Orlando. It's Friday, Dec 15 at 9:00AM.
Mark Campbell
VP, Market and Product Development
Crane Cams Inc.
If we processed a used gear set we would make those wear ridges very hard and they would become like hard file teeth and would destroy the rear end. We only want our customers to have success not "self destruct"!
Mark Campbell
VP, Market and Product Development
Crane Cams Inc.
DAMNIT!!!!!!!
oh well....guess I'll just have to run what I have...
__________________ Chris
2001 Camaro Z28, 388CI all bore, MM6
its "stock"...ignore the lope.....they all sound like that...
2004 Silverado LS, 5.3Liter, A4 (soon to be T56), 2WD
So at a macro (how, if at all, should it change?) and microscopic level (what do the surfaces look like before and after) how does the break-in process compare on treated vs. standard gears? I'm a little confused by the 'ridges' reference. Aren't gears often run together during the manufacturing process to improve stress distribution, etc., and if so, how would the surfaces differ from those of low-mileage, properly broken-in 'used' gears?
__________________ "It is not necessary to build a swimming pool to determine that a bowling ball won't float." -Zora Arkus-Duntov
Yeah, Mikronite is good stuff. I read in a MM&FF last year that you can use this process on just about anything. They did a set of valve springs, and it increased the strength of them by a very significan't ammount. They also treated a Ring and Pinion set, Cam, Crank, set of pushrods, set of Connecting rods, and I think even a cylinder head.
It's almost like it's too good to be true since it strengthens the item, reduces the friction, and lower's operational temperatures. I'm not 100% on it, but I think it mentioned that a race team was pretty much treating their whole drivetrain with Mikronite.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by silver98formula
Last time we had woofers here, like 9 cops showed up.
Chris
Mikronite doesn't really increase strength property of metal. The metal can already do that but the manufacturing technique has made the product inferior. Mikronite just helps get it back closer to an ideal part.
When you test things in an engineering enviroment you set up an equation for how strong a metal bar would be based off alloy, diameter, and impurities. Then, subract out surface finish (mikronite changes that), notch factor (hope you don't have those), and other things which you don't want to know about.
Rough surface finish 'weakens' the metal because the rough areas in the metal serve like conduits making it easier for cracks to start. If the surface is smooth it is harder for the cracks to start as it is like hitting a perfectly flat wall and not having any corners to get leverage on.
If the cracks can't start, then they can't become progressive. Then, your part won't fail under the same forces.
__________________ LS1Tech. Home of Challenge Pissing!
Last edited by 2002_Z28_Six_Speed; 12-19-2006 at 06:27 PM..
How much strength, if any would cryo treatment add to an aluminum block? If we were doing an all out build and didn't want to add the weight of the iron block, could cryo significantly increase the strength of the alum. block and limit or eliminate distortion?
The place that does my Cryo-teatment has seen as much as a 50% increase in strength on aluminum connecting rods. On a set of aluminum heads that I had cryo'd & powder coated, it took 23 minutes for the powder to melt. The place that I had do the powder coating said that it normally only takes 15 minutes for the other aluminum heads that he has treated. The machine shop that I had work on the cryo'd heads however was very confused. They went through almost 3 valve guide reamers before they were done installing the 5/16" guides. So do your machine work first before cryoing your parts b/c they will charge for the extra time spent. For your engine block liners it is suggested by my cryo guy to just bore the liner's and then finish hone the block (or crankshaft) after the cryo treatment.
In addition to polishing the surface, Mikronite imparts residual compressive stresses (much the same as shot peening) to the surface and near surface substrate. Cracks cannot initiate in areas of compressive stress. Cracks initiate in areas of tensile stress. From what I have read, another advantage of mikronite (compared to REM or just polishing) is that mikronite does not change the profile of the gear teeth. Any uneven polishing of the gear teeth can affect noise and vibration and compromise ultimate strength of the gear teeth.
I would imagine that mikronite could be used with cryo for a super strong piece. Let's face it, cryo does not affect the surface finish and the real benefits of cryo are deeper in the material. Mikronite works at and near the surface.
I had it done to a new 3.73 set (same as original) in my 2WD Tahoe for theRWHP and fuel economy improvement. Still putting mileage on the new wheel bearings before Vinci dynos it for a accurate HP assessment! Mileage looks like it has gone up about 1.4-1.6mpg on my normal highway driving. That seems like what it should be if there is a 10 -14 HP increase at the rear wheels. SOTP, there is a definite HP gain. We will find out how much soon. I will be sure to post.
So would there be a significant increase in strength on an iron block? I'm assuming I should have it machined first... Would there be any noticeable benefits?
__________________ -Alan
'97 Formula m6
17" ROH SP wheels, Eibach, Bilstien, Hotchkis, K&N, ATR, Hurst, TB bypass, Racetronix...Totaled 9/22/07
New Ride: 1990 MJ Comanche, 4" on 32"s... going turbo
So would there be a significant increase in strength on an iron block? I'm assuming I should have it machined first... Would there be any noticeable benefits?
When you cryo gray cast iron you will gain 97% increase in strength. As the piston cycles you will have less bore distortion and better ring seal. The other benefit that you will get by cryoing your materials is that they "slip" between each other freeing up friction. You will also wear out your rings before you will your cross hatching marks.
When you cryo gray cast iron you will gain 97% increase in strength. As the piston cycles you will have less bore distortion and better ring seal. The other benefit that you will get by cryoing your materials is that they "slip" between each other freeing up friction. You will also wear out your rings before you will your cross hatching marks.
So worth it... Here's a related question/idea. What about a micronite treatment to the cylinder walls?
__________________ -Alan
'97 Formula m6
17" ROH SP wheels, Eibach, Bilstien, Hotchkis, K&N, ATR, Hurst, TB bypass, Racetronix...Totaled 9/22/07
New Ride: 1990 MJ Comanche, 4" on 32"s... going turbo
I would think that you need a certain type of finish that would only be obtained with the friction and wear that the contact between the rings and the cylinder walls would produce to get that good piston ring cylinder wall seal for peak compression ...
__________________ Y2K NBM 6 MT Z28 CP
DYNO TUNED BY RON & MIKE @ GMMG
THEY ARE NOW VENGEANCE RACING & DEVELOPMENT
HP/TQ ? IT'S STOCK THEY ALL SOUND LIKE THAT
POWER TOUR 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, & 09 ... YEAH I'M GOING IN 2010 TOO
Last edited by slt200mph; 01-17-2007 at 03:38 PM..
I agree that a micronite finish on the cylinder walls would not be beneficial. I would keep it at the cryo process. What I meant by wearing the rings out first is that they will wear faster than the cylinder wall surfaces will.
This thread got me wondering how it would affect internal motor friction. Most rods people go with are strong enough w/out this. But I was thinking about the crank and pistons. If mikroniting the crank, you should shed some friction, free up some power, along with the pistons, strengthen them a bit, also smooth out the tops even more, less likely to have hot spots possibly?
If you had the crank finished, would it still be ok the make the clearances a lil "loose" to free up some power as done in race motors? Or would it be too loose?
