A cheap shift kit in a bottle that works!
11-14-2003, 11:02 AM
#41
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As to why GM would want to get the soft shifting feel from the fluid rather than by reducing the line pressure, maybe they found that to get the feel they wanted, the pressure had to be lowered so much that it caused other problems (like increased friction material wear or clutch chatter.) So, they used a sloppier shifting fluid instead. Just a theory.
11-14-2003, 11:40 AM
#43
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Here is what Mike said:
4L60E applications are not necessarily going to be the same as what you might use in a Turbo 400.
Type F= more friction, more grab, but diminished (plastic) thrust bearing life.
Trickshift= even more harsh and he would not use it in a 4L60E.
Dextron III - has friction modifers so it won't grab as hard or as harshly.
I asked him about my Tahoe. He said since I was towing it, I should run 50/50 Dextron and Type F. Pure Type F would not be as good for a vehicle that tows.
So Mike likes Type F but notes that thrust bushings in the 4L60E are plastic and will wear faster. How much faster I don't know but enough that he highlighted it.
I think he also said that Type F is thicker.
He does not like the Mercon stuff.
He also like the Lucas stuff but I'm not going to get into that I did not take very good notes.
4L60E applications are not necessarily going to be the same as what you might use in a Turbo 400.
Type F= more friction, more grab, but diminished (plastic) thrust bearing life.
Trickshift= even more harsh and he would not use it in a 4L60E.
Dextron III - has friction modifers so it won't grab as hard or as harshly.
I asked him about my Tahoe. He said since I was towing it, I should run 50/50 Dextron and Type F. Pure Type F would not be as good for a vehicle that tows.
So Mike likes Type F but notes that thrust bushings in the 4L60E are plastic and will wear faster. How much faster I don't know but enough that he highlighted it.
I think he also said that Type F is thicker.
He does not like the Mercon stuff.
He also like the Lucas stuff but I'm not going to get into that I did not take very good notes.
11-14-2003, 11:55 AM
#44
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"I think he also said that Type F is thicker."
I've noticed this as well. I wonder if it might effect stall speed a little? I've never noticed it if it does but it might make sense.
I wonder how much it reduces the thrust bearing life. Are we talking about the difference in lasting 200,000 and 150,000 or 50,000 miles (I seriously doubt it makes that much difference)? I've never had one go out but then I've never put 100,000 miles on a 4L60-E with (or without) F-type either. But it's not like you couldn't check it out each time you rebuild the tranny and replace it if necessary.
I've noticed this as well. I wonder if it might effect stall speed a little? I've never noticed it if it does but it might make sense.
I wonder how much it reduces the thrust bearing life. Are we talking about the difference in lasting 200,000 and 150,000 or 50,000 miles (I seriously doubt it makes that much difference)? I've never had one go out but then I've never put 100,000 miles on a 4L60-E with (or without) F-type either. But it's not like you couldn't check it out each time you rebuild the tranny and replace it if necessary.
11-14-2003, 12:49 PM
#46
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Mike is all for max performance, but he will note the downsides of various mods or changes from a stock approach.
My T400 in my car has brass thrust bushings which is why I can run trickshift.
My T400 in my car has brass thrust bushings which is why I can run trickshift.
11-14-2003, 01:02 PM
#47
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Wow, lots more good info here. I have used type F in my yank trans since day 1. I guess I'll be a good test of how much the bearings wear will be accelerated with type F because I think I'm easy enough on the car and my power level is low enough so the rest of my transmission should last a long time (hopefully) and I'll see when and if those bearings wear out.
11-14-2003, 02:35 PM
#48
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So is there anyone here who can say that they've had
a thrust (or other plastic) bushing failure, and used Type
F?
And, is there anyone who knows about whether (say) a
50/50 Dex/F mix would give the plastic enough slide to
get by?
a thrust (or other plastic) bushing failure, and used Type
F?
And, is there anyone who knows about whether (say) a
50/50 Dex/F mix would give the plastic enough slide to
get by?
11-17-2003, 04:20 AM
#51
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I was talking with the guy at Redline, and he said that Type-F fluid is thicker, so it will drop your stall speed a bit.
I was asking him about using both their Racing ATF, which is basiaclly a Type-F according to them, and Dexron-III, which is Redline D4 ATF. He said that the two (this is Redline fluid now, so it may not apply to all) will mix fine. He said the only possible issue with the Type-F might be some TCC chatter because of the higher friction of the fluid, but other than that, he said there weren't any other issues that could arise from using the Type-F.
I had some problems with something slipping in my tranny, so I'm going to try a 50/50 mix of Redline Racing ATF and D4 ATF (Type F and Dexron III).
I'm thinking (my opinion/educated guess here) that the only possible issue with synthetic ATF may be the stronger film strength than regular fluid, which might cause problems with some components that operate on friction alone (like the sprags, which use metal-to-metal friction to hold) by making them more prone to slipping.
I was asking him about using both their Racing ATF, which is basiaclly a Type-F according to them, and Dexron-III, which is Redline D4 ATF. He said that the two (this is Redline fluid now, so it may not apply to all) will mix fine. He said the only possible issue with the Type-F might be some TCC chatter because of the higher friction of the fluid, but other than that, he said there weren't any other issues that could arise from using the Type-F.
I had some problems with something slipping in my tranny, so I'm going to try a 50/50 mix of Redline Racing ATF and D4 ATF (Type F and Dexron III).
I'm thinking (my opinion/educated guess here) that the only possible issue with synthetic ATF may be the stronger film strength than regular fluid, which might cause problems with some components that operate on friction alone (like the sprags, which use metal-to-metal friction to hold) by making them more prone to slipping.
11-17-2003, 04:54 PM
#52
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colonel, the 3-4 clutches dont burn out if your not shifting into 4th gear at wot right? i see no reason why they would unless your actually making them slip and the only time to do that is at wot. do people race in overdrive? sure you would have to go with a little less gear to only go up to 3rd but if your not rebuilding trannies left and right i would be worth it no?
11-17-2003, 05:58 PM
#53
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Thread Starter
The 3-4 clutch pack is applied when you shift into 3rd gear and when you shift into 4th gear. So, shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear activates the 3-4 clutches. When we say 3-4 clutches we don't mean the 3 to 4 shift. If you go to 4th gear at WOT you REALLY wear the 3-4 clutches at an accelerated rate since the clutch pack has even less leverage over the resistance and drag of the car than when in 3rd.
Most people never see 4th in the 1/4 miles. If they do then they're overgeared.
Most people never see 4th in the 1/4 miles. If they do then they're overgeared.
11-17-2003, 10:17 PM
#55
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The word is wrong. These statements are BS and are EASILY proven wrong. My shifts are not only obviously quicker and harder by feel, but I've had to RAISE my shift points to account for the decrease in tranny slippage.
Borg Warner tests show that you lose about 13-17% holding power in "dynamic" situations, (clutches and bands used that come on & off as in a shift). The reason it "appears" to improve a shift is that the clutches/band slip longer during the shift and come on all at once at the end of the shift.
Borg Warner tests show that you lose about 13-17% holding power in "dynamic" situations, (clutches and bands used that come on & off as in a shift). The reason it "appears" to improve a shift is that the clutches/band slip longer during the shift and come on all at once at the end of the shift.
11-17-2003, 10:20 PM
#56
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Another indication I've seen is when clutch packs are on the borderline of going out. A simple switch to F-type gives the clutches the holding power to make it for awhile longer. I've seen this for myself as have many others.
If the clutches slipped longer then this would be revealed by simply Autotapping the RPMs during the shifts. All Autotapping that I've conducted has clearly shown just the opposite. I don't know what the motivation for spreading this false information is but it's plain as the fascia on the front of my car that it's
If the clutches slipped longer then this would be revealed by simply Autotapping the RPMs during the shifts. All Autotapping that I've conducted has clearly shown just the opposite. I don't know what the motivation for spreading this false information is but it's plain as the fascia on the front of my car that it's
11-18-2003, 01:06 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by Colonel
A couple of weeks ago I noticed that my 4L60-E tranny (it has a TCI shift kit but is otherwise stock) was shifting a bit sloppy. It was quickly getting worse over the course of a couple of days. I thought my stock clutches were finally ready for the dumpster but I REALLY wanted to head to the track that night. I needed a bandaid. Something to hold the tranny through one more night of racing abuse. So, I took it to the local Pennzoil 10 minute oil change and had them do a tranny flush using F-type fluid. Afterwards we checked the fluid level and we noticed that it was two quarts low. See, their fluid exchange is a 1:1 ratio. If it's 2 quarts low to begin with then it'll be two quarts low afterwards. We filled it back up to normal and chalked that up to a leaky line at the tranny cooler. The result? Well, not only was it back to normal (due to getting the level back to normal) but it shifted NOTICABLY better than ever due to the F-type fluid! 
This is not the first time I've seen this with F-type fluid. I've used it in all of my 4L60-Es at one point or another. It never fails to deliever quicker and firmer shifts.
This is not the first time I've seen this with F-type fluid. I've used it in all of my 4L60-Es at one point or another. It never fails to deliever quicker and firmer shifts.
11-18-2003, 01:11 AM
#58
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"So there, HA!!!!!!!!!! "
LOL! Who ya shootin' down there, Mr. Gunslinger?
With two tranny coolers I would think it should run cool...although I don't really see the point of running it at 100-125 degrees.
"LOL! Who ya shootin' down there, Mr. Gunslinger?
With two tranny coolers I would think it should run cool...although I don't really see the point of running it at 100-125 degrees.
11-18-2003, 01:34 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by Colonel
"So there, HA!!!!!!!!!! "
LOL! Who ya shootin' down there, Mr. Gunslinger?
With two tranny coolers I would think it should run cool...although I don't really see the point of running it at 100-125 degrees.
"LOL! Who ya shootin' down there, Mr. Gunslinger?
With two tranny coolers I would think it should run cool...although I don't really see the point of running it at 100-125 degrees.
Last edited by FaSS Blac; 11-18-2003 at 01:39 AM.
11-18-2003, 01:47 AM
#60
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I don't believe in running over 200 degree temps either.
I run one VERY small cooler after the radiator and my temps generally run 150-165 degrees...up to 200 sometimes under repeated race conditions.
I really wouldn't want my tranny below 150 for WOT operation.
I'm sorry, I thought you were disagreeing with someone in this thread...as if someone had suggested that running high tranny temps wasn't bad or something. Heat is, no doubt, the #1 killer of auto trannys.
And yes, high line pressures CAN do damage to trannys too. I will disagree with you there, with all due respect, if you think otherwise.
I run one VERY small cooler after the radiator and my temps generally run 150-165 degrees...up to 200 sometimes under repeated race conditions.
I really wouldn't want my tranny below 150 for WOT operation.
I'm sorry, I thought you were disagreeing with someone in this thread...as if someone had suggested that running high tranny temps wasn't bad or something. Heat is, no doubt, the #1 killer of auto trannys.
And yes, high line pressures CAN do damage to trannys too. I will disagree with you there, with all due respect, if you think otherwise.