FWIW we havent performed any back to back comparisons, but we have built several combos with both cylinder heads and the As Cast are always about 8 to 10rwhp down from the CNC heads... For the price the As Cast head is hard to beat for a street car......
FWIW we havent performed any back to back comparisons, but we have built several combos with both cylinder heads and the As Cast are always about 8 to 10rwhp down from the CNC heads... For the price the As Cast head is hard to beat for a street car......
wow thats all??? the price difference is enough to buy rockers, pushrods and gaskets
FWIW we havent performed any back to back comparisons, but we have built several combos with both cylinder heads and the As Cast are always about 8 to 10rwhp down from the CNC heads... For the price the As Cast head is hard to beat for a street car......
I think what would be ideal Ron, or at least what the OP is really asking for is to have a car either run the tfs 215's or as cast 220s first then run the other set on the same day, same car, same dyno for a true A-B Comparison. Just like how you guys did my car.
I have a question though, you say 8-10 rwhp difference, with the CNC'd 215's making more power. Is that only at peak or over the entire RPM range ??? I'd be most curious to see how the 2 graphs look overlayed, provided it was the same car, same dyno with only difference being the heads. There should be some spots (I'm guessing down low due to port velocity) that make a good bit more hp/tq then the slightly larger as cast 220's.
Whats your experience Ron ?
__________________ 2000 FRC LS2 402 - 541 rwhp 505 rwtq Tuned by Vengeance Racing
TFS 215's (59cc) Custom Cam, 1 7/8 ARH, Ported FAST 92, UD Pully, EWP
RPS Street Twin Lite, and Pfadt Coil overs, Sways, bushings kit, RPM Stg III
For all your Performance needs:Vengeance Racing678 513 7105 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamo...s-results.html
When the "as cast" heads were released it was feared that they would obsolete the 215 heads, but the reality is everyone wants a fully CNC ported head.
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
When the "as cast" heads were released it was feared that they would obsolete the 215 heads, but the reality is everyone wants a fully CNC ported head.
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
FWIW we havent performed any back to back comparisons, but we have built several combos with both cylinder heads and the As Cast are always about 8 to 10rwhp down from the CNC heads... For the price the As Cast head is hard to beat for a street car......
Will be a nice combo with the VRX3 camshaft, cannot wait to get the car back together and on the dyno!
Thanks Ron.
Having the As Cast heads shaved down for 61cc. Will let everyone know the numbers when done
thanks you for all that have contributed. especially ron@vengeance, allngn c5, & brian tooley. your info was very helpful.
__________________ www.tick-performance.com (704) 660-5843 || www.ws6store.com & www.texas-speed.com 1967 RS Hardtop Muncie 4 speed-in restoration
1984 F150 under 99,000 original miles
2002 SS M6 Black with Red w/ Ebony interior (Dale Earnhardt Themed)-"All Throttle Plus Bottle" Bolt Ons, Bolt Ins whats the difference
thanks you for all that have contributed. especially ron@vengeance, allngn c5, & brian tooley. your info was very helpful.
Thanks man, but I don't believe my name is worthy of being mentioned with those 2 names. They are the ones in the know, I can only speak from my one experience with tfs 215's. While Ron and Brian have all the vast experience. Therefore I defer to them. Thanks for the mention though. Very kind of you. I'm glad my afr 205 to tfs 215 swap was so helpful to those that followed it. Along with the header and cam swaps.
__________________ 2000 FRC LS2 402 - 541 rwhp 505 rwtq Tuned by Vengeance Racing
TFS 215's (59cc) Custom Cam, 1 7/8 ARH, Ported FAST 92, UD Pully, EWP
RPS Street Twin Lite, and Pfadt Coil overs, Sways, bushings kit, RPM Stg III
For all your Performance needs:Vengeance Racing678 513 7105 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamo...s-results.html
Had the car finally on the dyno today and it turned out very well with the Trickflow "As Cast" heads.
Here is what is on the car at this time"
Honker Intake
LS1 Maf
LS1 ported TB
Old FAST intake (Self ported)
Trickflow "As Cast" heads cut down to 61cc
Comp 850-16's
FAST 36lbs.
7.5 pushrods
VRX3 226/228 114lsa
Kooks 1 3/4 headers
Kooks Cat'd Xover
Corsa Exhaust
3:73 rear
Max Power: 435.09 Max Torque: 397.21
With the Nitto NT05's it might hook up a bit at the track, with a good pair of slicks I dont know how low I could get in the 1/4?
The LS1 Maf and LS1 TB is hurting me a bit for sure but is a blast to drive so far!
Thanks goes out to Ron at Vengeance for all the help and great tech info.
I have a set of as cast 220's for 4inch bore on my 408. also with a vengeance VRX7 cam. i dont have any numbers yet, i'm still working out some tuning bugs at this time. the car pulls very hard from 2500 rpm. it is a full weight f-body with a six speed. as soon as my tuning issues are fixed thanks to mike at vengeance i will have some numbers. i know this is a comparison between 215's and 220's. just thought i would chime it about my 220's.
I have a set of as cast 220's for 4inch bore on my 408. also with a vengeance VRX7 cam. i dont have any numbers yet, i'm still working out some tuning bugs at this time. the car pulls very hard from 2500 rpm. it is a full weight f-body with a six speed. as soon as my tuning issues are fixed thanks to mike at vengeance i will have some numbers. i know this is a comparison between 215's and 220's. just thought i would chime it about my 220's.
I will be very interested to hear about your results and your whole set up. I have been considering some TFS220s for my 408.
__________________
Arctic White SLP #7424, 17X9.5 C6 Z06 rims
Car wt. full tank 3520
I recently bought a set of the as-casts for the 4" bore also and am currently building the 408 I'll be bolting them onto. I'll let you know how I do as well.
__________________ 2009 G8 GT - Totally stock for now.
When the "as cast" heads were released it was feared that they would obsolete the 215 heads, but the reality is everyone wants a fully CNC ported head.
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
hi Brian again...
In this CNC program youre talking about here... are you only open the chambers out for bigger bore, or are you switching out valves too?
Another happy as cast owner here. Put down 459/444 rwtq with 228/230 114lsa cam, 85mm ls6 intake, stock ls2 through a fairly restrictive exhaust setup.
__________________ 94 mazda rx7- 01 ls1/t56 old motor=11.47 et 124MPH
ls2-tfs combo to be running soon.....
Well I bought the 215 TFS heads and 238 242 cam It will be a few months befor the car is put back together and ran on the dyno....but definitly will post the results, I had to go ahead and get them even if its only 10hp gain! I bought the whole kit though heads cam and rocker arms and etc. $3100 dollars for all cant wait to see what she puts out
