Im gonna have to agree with Damian on this one. Its nothing to get bent up about because they didnt include instructions. Outside of the fact that there are a bunch of how to's on how to install headers. They made a great product and installation is pretty self explanatory really. Installed these in a garage on 4 jack stands, with a little common sense and some patience you can get it.
Agree or disagree, mister 10 posts, several people have had issues that could have been easily avoided if there were a few application notes, either on TSP's website or on a sheet included with the product. Your esteemed opinion doesn't change the fact that these issues do not happen with other vendors' products and have tripped up experienced mechanics that have to either charge real labor costs to their customers or eat the wasted time.
Seeing that you don't say you have anything other than the original stock LS1 in your sig, why are you even in this forum?
You realize we're describing issues with a different block than yours?
You know that these issues are not covered in any how-to article?
My headers were installed some time ago and I'm happy with them after the issues were resolved, but it's pretty disingenuous to imply that just because you had no issues, other people will not.
The simple fact is there's great enough tolerances in the GM manufacturing process for these cars that a jig created from one may turn out a product that may not fit another. It may turn out great for "most" customer cars, but a few may experience fitment issues but are still within factory spec.
Several times suggestions were made for a quick cheat-sheet to be included that would allow future customers of TSP to handily avoid these problems. Several install issues have been spoonfed back to TSP in this thread and have been summarily ignored or dismissed.
If I or my very experienced installer knew there could be snags and planned around them, I would have saved quite a bit in labor costs, split with what extra hours he put in on top of that.
My later posts in this thread are trying to be constructive. If the help isn't appreciated, I can live with that -- But do not tell others that may encounter these same issues that are known to us but not acknowledged by TSP to not "get bent up about" it.
The suggestion made for TSP to document this should in no way should disparage potential customers and should be seen in the light of a vendor trying to be helpful in ensuring their customer's success. Providing a few tips are not indicative of problems with product quality, but could save them a few aggravated customers bad-mouthing it.
It's really not my problem anymore, but it saddens me that someone else wasn't helped.
Agree or disagree, mister 10 posts, several people have had issues that could have been easily avoided if there were a few application notes, either on TSP's website or on a sheet included with the product. Your esteemed opinion doesn't change the fact that these issues do not happen with other vendors' products and have tripped up experienced mechanics that have to either charge real labor costs to their customers or eat the wasted time.
Seeing that you don't say you have anything other than the original stock LS1 in your sig, why are you even in this forum?
You realize we're describing issues with a different block than yours?
You know that these issues are not covered in any how-to article?
My headers were installed some time ago and I'm happy with them after the issues were resolved, but it's pretty disingenuous to imply that just because you had no issues, other people will not.
The simple fact is there's great enough tolerances in the GM manufacturing process for these cars that a jig created from one may turn out a product that may not fit another. It may turn out great for "most" customer cars, but a few may experience fitment issues but are still within factory spec.
Several times suggestions were made for a quick cheat-sheet to be included that would allow future customers of TSP to handily avoid these problems. Several install issues have been spoonfed back to TSP in this thread and have been summarily ignored or dismissed.
If I or my very experienced installer knew there could be snags and planned around them, I would have saved quite a bit in labor costs, split with what extra hours he put in on top of that.
My later posts in this thread are trying to be constructive. If the help isn't appreciated, I can live with that -- But do not tell others that may encounter these same issues that are known to us but not acknowledged by TSP to not "get bent up about" it.
The suggestion made for TSP to document this should in no way should disparage potential customers and should be seen in the light of a vendor trying to be helpful in ensuring their customer's success. Providing a few tips are not indicative of problems with product quality, but could save them a few aggravated customers bad-mouthing it.
It's really not my problem anymore, but it saddens me that someone else wasn't helped.
This is honestly the first time I've heard someone bitching about this on LS1tech. I'm sure TSP figured their consumer base was competent enough to work around any 'snags' or installation issues, or had the brains to give them a call when they ran in to a problem.
I had one of the first TSP Rumbler systems on my old v6 car, and no, it didn't come with stupid instructions. Ya know why? Cause it's obvious. Call TSP if you have problems, I'm sure they would be more than happy to talk to you about them, just don't come to the forum bad-mouthing a reputable company over some really really stupid shit.
Chadder, do you like running around kicking people in the jimmy when they're being friendly and just trying to be helpful?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadder
This is honestly the first time I've heard someone bitching about this on LS1tech.
Did you not read >this< thread? Miss the dates on the posts within?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadder
I'm sure TSP figured their consumer base was competent enough to work around any 'snags' or installation issues, or had the brains to give them a call when they ran in to a problem.
Competent? You actually read this thread where the questions were asked and TSP claimed the problems didn't exist or just didn't have an answer even with photos provided? Oh yeah, it'd require you to have brains to understand what you were reading...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadder
I had one of the first TSP Rumbler systems on my old v6 car, and no, it didn't come with stupid instructions. Ya know why? Cause it's obvious.
And you bolting on a known application onto a stock engine has what to do with this conversation? Or forum, for that matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadder
Call TSP if you have problems, I'm sure they would be more than happy to talk to you about them...
Again, read this thread? Currently these issues "don't exist".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadder
just don't come to the forum bad-mouthing a reputable company over some really really stupid shit.
The only bad mouthing is coming from you, friend. Those headers are a quality product and am happy with mine, though they did cause several headaches (and increased labor time) at install time -- point out where I have said something to the contrary?
Read / comprehend as in I'm not pointing out flaws with the product, just a few issues that have caused at least a few people in this thread some pain. What TSP ultimately decides to do is their business, quite literally, but it seems there are some "corner case" issues people may run into when transplanting a LS2 block into an fbody with their headers that could help prevent pain if documented in some fashion... :shrug:
I'll take some photos shortly for Pro Stock John and look at the clearance again... It's still tight clearance on my steering, but we did manage to shift the engine a bit over and banged on the offending pipe ever so slightly.
Front of engine - passenger side:
Front of engine - driver side:
Under car - driver side:
Under car - passenger side:
Wow, that's a close shave!
(Disclaimer - depending on your specific application, whether you install an LS2 into a 10th Anniversary Firehawk, or your name is not SeaHawk, you may or may not be able to get your headers to rub on the steering column without significant photoshopping)
Last note: this Firehawk has the Bilstein package from SLP which despite their claims of being within factory tolerence actually lowers the car about 1-1/2" compared to the other 4x4 F-body's with stock suspension I park next to... Even so, I don't think I've ever knocked the collectors on any bumps.. just the cats
Ummmmm that doesnt look safe! Hope your not driving the car with the header that close to the stearing shaft? Does TSP have a solution? Are they stepping up and helping? After reading the thread it seems like TSP is just shrugging it off?? or did I miss something?
As long as it stays off the collar of the shaft it seems ok.. I'll probably wind up just tapping it with a hammer to "make" some clearance.
I'm using the L92 heads/intake package from SLP who mills them some super secret amount (~0.030"), but I don't think that alone would shift things around that much.
We've only had one set of these headers come back from an owner saying they ran into shaft clearance problems. Those headers came back and we installed them on the next F-body that came through the shop and cleared perfectly! Come to find out, the other car had been wrecked and the rack as well as the shaft had been swapped out to non-OE parts and caused the fitment issues. With the visible leaks on the power steering reservoir above as well as the passenger valve cover onto the head, I'd question the over-all state of maintenance on that vehicle, and wonder if the motor mounts are indeed the underlying issue there.
__________________
Largest Stocking Distributor of LS-x Engines / Largest LS-x Comp Cams Distributor in the Country!
COMP - FAST - PACESETTER - DIAMOND RACING - CALLIES - COMETIC GASKETS - MONSTER CLUTCHES - MOSER ENGINEERING - KOOKS HEADERS - ARP - GM BOLTS AND GASKETS - MSD - NGK - POWERBOND - ASP - AND MORE!
With the visible leaks on the power steering reservoir above as well as the passenger valve cover onto the head, I'd question the over-all state of maintenance on that vehicle, and wonder if the motor mounts are indeed the underlying issue there.
Not sure what the power steering leak or the valve cover leak has to do with the driver side header not fitting correctly?
No wrecks, the power steering resevoir has always leaked a bit, but proper maintenance has been maintained. The dealership service department said this was "normal" and wouldn't address that issue. The proper fluid level has been maintained. All steering system parts are as-is from the factory.
As noted elsewhere in this thread in several places, there are new poly engine mounts installed, as per TSP's recommendation. The car has had subframe connectors since before 10k on the odometer.
Most of the dirtiness of the engine compartment results from a local shop spraying anti-freeze all over the engine bay when I had it swapped out for distilled water per rules at a Pinks All-Out event, and has been parked since while I haven't had a chance to run a hose in there.
You're not suggesting that I have/had a fitment issue because I let the engine get dirty at the track?
If I can take measurements, more pictures of specific areas, re-aligning pieces or whatever, I can, but I need constructive advice rather than finger pointing.
The variable is not the header here. They are made on a jig, and verified to the jig before shipping to us from the mfg. That's the same way all the major header mfg's on here do things to ensure they are to design each time. They don't change from one to the next. The only difference in fitment is the vehicle and its components.
__________________
Largest Stocking Distributor of LS-x Engines / Largest LS-x Comp Cams Distributor in the Country!
COMP - FAST - PACESETTER - DIAMOND RACING - CALLIES - COMETIC GASKETS - MONSTER CLUTCHES - MOSER ENGINEERING - KOOKS HEADERS - ARP - GM BOLTS AND GASKETS - MSD - NGK - POWERBOND - ASP - AND MORE!
I don't intend on continuously coming off as a smart-ass on your thread (and yes, this is distracting from your original purpose, something I didn't intend), but you really can't claim there is zero variance on every single piece. I'm not saying that the headers I received are out of spec, either. It could very well be a factory tolerance issue, or perhaps, both the car and the driver-side header are leaning enough in the wrong direction (but "within spec") that I got stuck in the middle - is there really any way to know for certain; does it really matter, as the headers are installed...
The only variable introduced is that it is an LS2 block on poly mounts (the latter actually improving the fitment a bit, though speculation that the original mounts may have relaxed is fair). I honestly don't know if it's that simple, or how many LS2 F-bodies for which you've done installs. The knock sensor location is still a tidbit of information that future non-LS1 installers could use, as it's non-obvious until the install is complete.
Instead, do you have any suggestion as to what else could be done to put some space between the header and the steering shaft? I'm not that knowledgeable about the steering components other than nothing has changed since I bought it new.
PM me if you want to take this out of the thread, as this side topic hasn't been very constructive so far and isn't meant to dissuade potential customers, as it seems to be a corner case, esp. since Carnutz never indicated what his issues were.
I will work to get a basic installation instruction sheet put together for these headers guys.
We've only installed TONS of these headers & never had one single problem with GOOPD stock motor mounts, or steering clearance.
I did take a set back from a guy once that had the clearance issue with his steering & magically they worked fine on the car that was installed here.
Never talked to anyone who had the knock sensors on the side of a LS2 block to check clearance with the headers. The headers were built for a LS1 F-body so we mainly worried about it fitting LS1s. Most of the guys I see get rid of the knock sensors with the LS2 blocks. You might be the first to have tried that custom knock sensor placement with the long tubes.
Could you post a picture of the tube/steering clearance from a clean install? Perhaps then I can determine what direction things are shifted in so I can look at what needs to be done... (Thinking an aftermarket k-member might align things better?)
Agree or disagree, mister 10 posts, several people have had issues that could have been easily avoided if there were a few application notes, either on TSP's website or on a sheet included with the product. Your esteemed opinion doesn't change the fact that these issues do not happen with other vendors' products and have tripped up experienced mechanics that have to either charge real labor costs to their customers or eat the wasted time.
Seeing that you don't say you have anything other than the original stock LS1 in your sig, why are you even in this forum?
You realize we're describing issues with a different block than yours?
You know that these issues are not covered in any how-to article?
My headers were installed some time ago and I'm happy with them after the issues were resolved, but it's pretty disingenuous to imply that just because you had no issues, other people will not.
The simple fact is there's great enough tolerances in the GM manufacturing process for these cars that a jig created from one may turn out a product that may not fit another. It may turn out great for "most" customer cars, but a few may experience fitment issues but are still within factory spec.
Several times suggestions were made for a quick cheat-sheet to be included that would allow future customers of TSP to handily avoid these problems. Several install issues have been spoonfed back to TSP in this thread and have been summarily ignored or dismissed.
If I or my very experienced installer knew there could be snags and planned around them, I would have saved quite a bit in labor costs, split with what extra hours he put in on top of that.
My later posts in this thread are trying to be constructive. If the help isn't appreciated, I can live with that -- But do not tell others that may encounter these same issues that are known to us but not acknowledged by TSP to not "get bent up about" it.
The suggestion made for TSP to document this should in no way should disparage potential customers and should be seen in the light of a vendor trying to be helpful in ensuring their customer's success. Providing a few tips are not indicative of problems with product quality, but could save them a few aggravated customers bad-mouthing it.
It's really not my problem anymore, but it saddens me that someone else wasn't helped.
Oh my bad dude, I assumed since these headers are made for the LS1 in an F-Body and I own them... on my f-body I could say my opinion on this. If you read back there is a guy asking about ground clearence.. that where I came in. Then some guy was complaining that they dont have a little "cheat sheet". and now you're complaining that you can't get them to fit on your LS2 block? how is this there problem? I got them on and I have never done a set of headers before. I used some tips from a hooker install. So if you have any experience in headers then this should have been no problem. As for you I was never talking to you. Sorry you have fitment issues with putting these on an LS2 block but since they were made around the LS1 block then I wouldn't expect them to fit perfect but then again you do know alot more than me. Maybe I just got lucky and didn't have any problems?
As for you I was never talking to you. Sorry you have fitment issues with putting these on an LS2 block but since they were made around the LS1 block then I wouldn't expect them to fit perfect but then again you do know alot more than me. Maybe I just got lucky and didn't have any problems?
I read the response to me, my apologies if I can flying off the handle a bit harshly
That said, this thread is in the Gen IV external engine forum, the product is for the F-body, the sum implies an engine swap
According to TSP, those doing the same swap with their headers usually remove the knock sensors altogether... While this seems a bit on the dangerous side to me, I have had some difficulty getting the gain correct in the tune as it seems either to register nothing at all or way too much false knock with no area in-between.
As far as the steering shaft clearance, I'm still looking into that, and hopefully someone has a couple of pictures to share so I can figure out what's shifted what direction, and then start looking for a fix...
For clearance, my car is lowered from SLP, so I recognize any speed bump dragging issue is my own
