The way Jon from tsp makes it sound, it sounds like that would have been an option...
So what did the local guy say it was? Pm me if you have to.
It was definately oil starvation for some reason. Not sure what caused that though. Oil pump was showing to hold good pressure, had new oil in it. The filter looks good after the fact. I can't imagine that changing to 5w30 synthetic would cause this. If sending it back would have been an option, it wasn't given to me until now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by performabuilt2
all I can say is I build trannies and deal with tolerances in the ten thousanths ursually measuring the pumps at what have you....man .0001 is really far fetched and as said before if the room temp changes 10 degrees it will change the measurements so lets say you are measuring during the day and get 4 rods complete and then you come back at night and do the rest or even later in the day your measurements will not be right a strand of hair is around .001 id dont even know what to measure to give a example of what .0001 is that is like nothing so to do this type of measuring you would have to have a climate con trolled room to the T and not be able to touch your parts so I doubt that you are making clearnces that close to each other
I work in a metrology lab @ a precision ball company, and I can tell you I measure all day to the millionth (.000001) of an inch.
Temp in the clean room is 68 +/- 1/2 a degree because of that. The master's are all tungsten carbide because it's not affected by temp at all.
Honestly if an engine builder isn't going to keep tolerances within .001 if they aren't in a temp controlled clean room. In a clean room environment, yes that can be done I don't think it would be much of a stretch as long as the parts are all allowed to stabilize in the room overnight.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Rod
First off Hp/L is ricer math, and is pretty much useless
It was definately oil starvation for some reason. Not sure what caused that though. Oil pump was showing to hold good pressure, had new oil in it. The filter looks good after the fact. I can't imagine that changing to 5w30 synthetic would cause this. If sending it back would have been an option, it wasn't given to me until now.
So prior to this thread they would not let you ship it back and go over it? Or did I misunderstand? pm if you want to..In the fall I'll be in the market for more cubes...
to each his own i guess, i just find it funny that sponsers are the only ones that are arguing. i gues my standards are just too high. i measure multiple times before i assemble an engine, and i know that with heat sizes will change but if you keep the measuring tool next to the item it is measuring it stays pretty close. that way they stay the same temp.
thanks jl ws6. this is kind of what i posted to try to explain my work. its just hard to explain through typing.
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For clarification on sending the motor back. If there is ever a question on build quality on one of our engines, the customer must pull the motor and it back to us as is. That way we can look for problems as it comes apart rather than getting a pile of parts in box. However, that is only in a case where we would be considering covering the problem. If he is looking for us to inspect the motor and rebuild it for him. He is more than welcome to still do so. I think the misunderstanding was that we will not rebuild it under warranty.
Jon
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For clarification on sending the motor back. If there is ever a question on build quality on one of our engines, the customer must pull the motor and it back to us as is. That way we can look for problems as it comes apart rather than getting a pile of parts in box. However, that is only in a case where we would be considering covering the problem. If he is looking for us to inspect the motor and rebuild it for him. He is more than welcome to still do so. I think the misunderstanding was that we will not rebuild it under warranty.
Jon
You know I think the only problem that I have with the incident is this: Every single moving part of this motor was purchased through you guys except the valve springs, pushrods, and the cam. I can understand that 8 months is a long time after the purchase. But less than 6k miles isn't very long at all. I had an issue with some heads about 2 years ago that I bought on this board. I called the vendor up that built them and the FIRST thing they did was ask me to send them in. I immediately sent them in and within a day got a call back. They found the problem to be something that I had mistakenly done and it ruined the heads. Because they are a very reputable vendor, they made things right with me, even though they didn't have to. I didn't expect them to. But they rebuilt a new set of heads with my good parts from the ruined heads and sent them back to me at no cost.
I certainly haven't asked for anything like that in this case. The thing that concerns me is that I was never offered anything but a discount after spending over $6k already. I wouldn't expect anything free from anyone, but when a company that had none of my money from a set of heads, made a situation right for me at no cost, that pushed my standards up with everyone. I can't imagine spending 9 months worth of saving on something and then it fails after 7 months, and only getting the offer to spend more money to fix it right off the bat. I would have happily sent the motor in and let them look if they had offered that as an option. If I would have sent it in and they would have found something wrong that I had done, then that's what I would have had to deal with. I also would think for such a reputable company, that it wouldn't have been a problem to take this issue up with the machine shop that they use and stand up for the customer a little. It appears to me that the volume of sales must be very low and to take care of a motor they sold would end the business. Honestly I don't know how much these parts can be bought for buy a machine shop, but I would assume it's a fraction of what we as a consumer pays. I suppose next time I will look for that 12mo/12k warranty rather than try to save a buck.
I do refuse to point fingers because those I have dealt with at TSP have given good if not great service. I am just disappointed in the actions taken after a failure has occured with the parts purchased from them, whether it was my fault or not. I would much rather eat the shipping back and find out it was my fault, than to be offered to purchase more to fix the problem when I'm already out $6k+ and now have a shot motor.
I think what you are misunderstanding is we do not warranty short-blocks. It has ever been an issue with your sending the motor back or inspection into what happened or even a rebuild. That has always been an option. However, it is not an option for us to rebuild the motor on our dime. That is what I think you misunderstood.
We are not the only company in this industry that does this. We did not install the motor, setup the oiling system, tune, etc. on the car. Also, we have no clue on how the motor was maintained, driven, if any power adders were used etc. Because of these factors, we simply can not warranty motors that are not installed and tuned at TSP. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with sales volume, period. To even think such a thing is ridiculous.
I understand your frustrated with the situation. But trying to discredit TSP will not help your situation. We have not pointed the finger at you or anyone else. The only thing we have said is that we will not warranty the short-block, and if it were ever in question we would request that it be sent back to TSP as it is in the car. However, that is irrelevant in this case.
If you feel this is somehow unfair or we have done something wrong, give me a call and we would be more than happy to discuss it and see if we can come to some sort of understanding.
Jon Reynolds
Texas Speed & Performance
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Jason, I'm at home so I don't have e-mails...but the first e-mail you sent me said you'd found metal in the oil. There was a problem already, clearly. I went through the usual questions with you trying to narrow down any possible source of the problems. You said you'd have the engine out that weekend to give me answers on what the thrust bearing looked like, etc. The next time I heard from you, the engine was torn apart. That doesn't leave much room or time for us to get it back. It was already torn apart, not just removed for inspection.
Now our engines are not warrantied unless assembled, installed, and tuned at our facility. We do not beat around the bush or sugar coat that to customers to get a sale. That's the way it is. That being said, we still stand behind our workmanship as does the machine shop we use. We also fight for customer's to get parts manufacturers to back up their guarantees. But when an engine is already torn apart, what can we be expected to do? It's already in someone else's hands. Also, the talk of 6psi oil pressure and such...what gauge was that on?
We've offered VERY deep discounts to try and help you get back on the road. We aren't trying to make more money off you, and I hope you understand that after having talked with and e-mailed me back and forth so many times. We still offer you that deal after your new machinist called and verbally harassed me (and we've seen in this thread his opinions don't really stack up in the LSx engine community). He has tried to lay blame on us for NOT sending an owner's manual with the short-block strictly prohibiting 5w30 oil use after break-in. There's another thread and discussion entirely on oil viscosity and temperature ratings that shoot that theory out the window, but I don't have the time or patience to go into detail about it here and now.
Lastly, in reference to your comment "It appears to me that the volume of sales must be very low and to take care of a motor they sold would end the business." Let's be realistic here. Nobody on this forum, sponsor or regular member, goes to work every day hoping to give away money. So while we simply will not warranty an engine with 6k+ miles for a number of reasons, to think we will not do because it would end our business is somewhat a ridiculous statement.
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ARP - GM BOLTS AND GASKETS - MSD - NGK - POWERBOND - WISECO - ASP - AND MORE!
I just tried to call to discuss this with no answer...
Jon
That's because you have my old phone number. But like I said. I am not trying to discredit your business. I have been pleased with all the service I have received. It is the fact that immediately upon my motor losing oil pressure I got in to my work and sent an email to you guys, and basically was told I can get help with new parts but that's all. I am not going to argue this case because it's virtually impossible for me or you to prove what happened to the motor. I understand that "you" don't warranty short blocks. I would think though that this machine shop that you readily use, would be able to make something work out so that you didn't get shafted as well as me. For this reason alone, I will not blame "you" for this issue. However, at the business I work in, if we had any of our equipment or parts out sourced, it would be taken up with that facility if something failed. The majority of the time this sort of thing would be taken care of and not only would my business be reimbursed, so would the customer. But, I don't know what relationship you have with these guys is, or how they conduct their business. I do not feel like there is anything to work out now, mainly for the fact that my motor is completely disassembled and the only thing we can do is exchange words and so forth. Like I said before, I do not point the blame because I have had good service. I just feel like issues with failure could be addressed a little bit differently.
Jason, I'm at home so I don't have e-mails...but the first e-mail you sent me said you'd found metal in the oil. There was a problem already, clearly. I went through the usual questions with you trying to narrow down any possible source of the problems. You said you'd have the engine out that weekend to give me answers on what the thrust bearing looked like, etc. The next time I heard from you, the engine was torn apart. That doesn't leave much room or time for us to get it back. It was already torn apart, not just removed for inspection.
Now our engines are not warrantied unless assembled, installed, and tuned at our facility. We do not beat around the bush or sugar coat that to customers to get a sale. That's the way it is. That being said, we still stand behind our workmanship as does the machine shop we use. We also fight for customer's to get parts manufacturers to back up their guarantees. But when an engine is already torn apart, what can we be expected to do? It's already in someone else's hands. Also, the talk of 6psi oil pressure and such...what gauge was that on?
We've offered VERY deep discounts to try and help you get back on the road. We aren't trying to make more money off you, and I hope you understand that after having talked with and e-mailed me back and forth so many times. We still offer you that deal after your new machinist called and verbally harassed me (and we've seen in this thread his opinions don't really stack up in the LSx engine community). He has tried to lay blame on us for NOT sending an owner's manual with the short-block strictly prohibiting 5w30 oil use after break-in. There's another thread and discussion entirely on oil viscosity and temperature ratings that shoot that theory out the window, but I don't have the time or patience to go into detail about it here and now.
Lastly, in reference to your comment "It appears to me that the volume of sales must be very low and to take care of a motor they sold would end the business." Let's be realistic here. Nobody on this forum, sponsor or regular member, goes to work every day hoping to give away money. So while we simply will not warranty an engine with 6k+ miles for a number of reasons, to think we will not do because it would end our business is somewhat a ridiculous statement.
Matt, I do appreciate what you have done for me. Part of my rants are just frustration. I do understand that you are offering me deep discounts on parts. I just can't afford to spend any money right now, which is my problem. Just understand that I have been happy with the service I have gotten and the help you've given me.
Funny that a BIG corpration such as gm will sell you a brand new ls2 with a 30,000 3 year warranty that is massed produced and more supsectable to failure but yet a "Professional" known motor building shop that build engines for specific application
to do a certain job andwont warranty 5k worth of motor.sounds shady to me just another bad thing ive herd about a "Professional" motor building shop........Just my thoughts and b/c ive had friends have the same type of crappy customer service over amail order tune that nearly blew up his motor.
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Most engine builders don't warranty an engine unless they did the complete build themselves.
GM sells complete motors not short-blocks, so they can warranty their motors.
I have found that it pays to buy a completely assembled motor or use a quality shop that buys and puts an assembly together for you.
Diy's always run the risk of getting bad parts to no fault of their own,but end up getting the short-stick.
Sorry for all of the problems you're having.
Hopefully, the car is not your daily driver and you can let it sit for awhile and re-group. Lots of guys selling stock motors cheap that you could throw in if you wanted.
They sure dont mind making you pay though. I guess more are for money than respect. I work at a independant Repair shop and we warranty our work 12k miles or 1 year weather we do a simple brake job or major engine repair and thats taking old apart and puting old /new back together and we are by no means funded like a dealer its paycheck to paycheck and i think we are very respected for that Just my 2 cents but im kinda old fashioned i guess
__________________ 2001 SS #5347, Black on black M6, factory center exhaust, factory performance suspension kit (upgraded sway bars,blue springs,bilstein shocks), kenny brown SFC,hotchkis LCA's,slp loudmouth,ceramic coated hooker LT's with ORY, holley powershot airfilter with slp lid,ASP UD pulley,8000k HID's,HPtuners Tuned,160 stat,Poly trans/motor mounts, 317/hp 330/tq (Stock before any mods)
Last edited by 00_STANG_KILLER; 01-23-2009 at 08:54 PM..
Funny that a BIG corpration such as gm will sell you a brand new ls2 with a 30,000 3 year warranty that is massed produced and more supsectable to failure but yet a "Professional" known motor building shop that build engines for specific application
to do a certain job andwont warranty 5k worth of motor.sounds shady to me just another bad thing ive herd about a "Professional" motor building shop........Just my thoughts and b/c ive had friends have the same type of crappy customer service over amail order tune that nearly blew up his motor.
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Most engine builders don't warranty an engine unless they did the complete build themselves.
GM sells complete motors not short-blocks, so they can warranty their motors.
I have found that it pays to buy a completely assembled motor or use a quality shop that buys and puts an assembly together for you.
Diy's always run the risk of getting bad parts to no fault of their own,but end up getting the short-stick.
Sorry for all of the problems you're having.
Hopefully, the car is not your daily driver and you can let it sit for awhile and re-group. Lots of guys selling stock motors cheap that you could throw in if you wanted.
Funny that a BIG corpration such as gm will sell you a brand new ls2 with a 30,000 3 year warranty that is massed produced and more supsectable to failure but yet a "Professional" known motor building shop that build engines for specific application
to do a certain job andwont warranty 5k worth of motor.sounds shady to me just another bad thing ive herd about a "Professional" motor building shop........Just my thoughts and b/c ive had friends have the same type of crappy customer service over amail order tune that nearly blew up his motor.
So your telling me I:
Buy just a short block
Assemble the long block myself
Install it in a car with no oil pressure guage
Tune the car myself
Post videos of racing all over the Internet
Drive 6k miles without issue
Have the motor disassembled by a known idiot who attempts to discredit Tsp for days on end
Maybe you should get your buddy at a machine shop to blame the builder after 6k miles.
90 percent of the people on the Internet thinks that works 45 percent of the time...... 4 days a week
You guys won't warranty that?
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Buy just a short block
Assemble the long block myself
Install it in a car with no oil pressure guage
Tune the car myself
Post videos of racing all over the Internet
Drive 6k miles without issue
Have the motor disassembled by a known idiot who attempts to discredit Tsp for days on end
Maybe you should get your buddy at a machine shop to blame the builder after 6k miles.
90 percent of the people on the Internet thinks that works 45 percent of the time...... 4 days a week
You guys won't warranty that?
Now that's just an ignorant statement all together. Especially when "90 percent" of what you just said doesn't apply to this situation.
I just know what its like saving up hard eraned money buying what you think is the best and will be worrie free and it shits out and they say oops sorry even after the proper break in and everything i just dont see that but this is all my opinion sorry if all you guys that have money like it grows on trees have a problem with that which im sure your not b/c you dont make money being honest anymore so take up for another person just like yourself im being sensable it only makes sense to treat people good bc in the long run you will make your money but i know they have lost any sales to me and about 4 other local f body owners all it would take is at least partial money back torwards a new engine at least its still putting the name out and saying well the first one fucked up so we worked it out and got him a new engine from our shop and hes rolling again.
__________________ 2001 SS #5347, Black on black M6, factory center exhaust, factory performance suspension kit (upgraded sway bars,blue springs,bilstein shocks), kenny brown SFC,hotchkis LCA's,slp loudmouth,ceramic coated hooker LT's with ORY, holley powershot airfilter with slp lid,ASP UD pulley,8000k HID's,HPtuners Tuned,160 stat,Poly trans/motor mounts, 317/hp 330/tq (Stock before any mods)
Buy just a short block
Assemble the long block myself
Install it in a car with no oil pressure guage
Tune the car myself
Post videos of racing all over the Internet
Drive 6k miles without issue
Have the motor disassembled by a known idiot who attempts to discredit Tsp for days on end
Maybe you should get your buddy at a machine shop to blame the builder after 6k miles.
90 percent of the people on the Internet thinks that works 45 percent of the time...... 4 days a week
You guys won't warranty that?
$6K on a forged motor is not a lot of mileage. It obviously is not a tuning problem as the pistons top looked good.
It appears to be some sort of oiling or clearance issues that caused the engine's death.
