Budget 427

frito1 · 09-23-2009, 10:40 PM

Hey it's been awhile for me and this site. I sold the TA this spring and since found a slick 69 camaro that I'm going to transplant a LS into. However it seems like most swaps are stock 5.3 and 6.0s I'm wanting something pretty nasty in this car... after all, it is a musclecar

I see Schwanke Engines has a deal on a new 6.0 iron block bored/stroked to 427 (4.065 X 4.125) with Eagle and Mahle forged internals for $3500 shipped. I'm not real fond of Eagle but I haven't heard of many failures? They also offer an armor coating for an extra $275.... can anybody shed some light on this coating?

They also offer a LS3 top end (new LS3 heads, rockers, intake mani, rails, injectors, head bolts, gaskets and 90mm TB) for $2200.

Both seems like a pretty good value and potential for big HP with the right cam. I will be using my FLT4 4L60e trans and using a hacked up LS1 harness. Will the LS3 injectors work with the LS1 harness?

Does this sound like a decent way to go? Is the 4.125" stroke too much for that block (NA sort of guy here)?

Dutchman427 · 09-23-2009, 10:47 PM

Is there such a thing???

Just playing man.

1CAMWNDR · 09-24-2009, 03:34 PM

You will be fine with that bore. I have a 6.0L LQ9 block that is bored to 4.07". I would ask about swapping the Eagle crank for a Compstar, and the Mahle pistons for Wiseco. Just my opinion of course on that. That plus an LS3 top end will be a killer motor.

NemeSS · 09-24-2009, 04:07 PM

check morris deals on 427 shortblocks
they only use callies crank and rods and also use a 4.125 bore.
mite as well get some better heads than stock ls3 or l92. for that size engine

00fastta · 09-24-2009, 05:28 PM

Screw that I would save up and put a 572 in there. Ok back on topic...I haven't heard anything bad about eagle just that when numbers get up to 700 hp and up they are probably not the best, but I bet that 427 your thinking about will probably put down 450rwhp so you should be fine

niceguyyy01 · 09-24-2009, 05:36 PM

Unless you are wanting to make 1000hp, I would not be worried about Eagle and Mahle stuff. Seen it used many times before in apps under 7k rpm and under 700hp with zero issues. It all depends on who builds the motor and it is run and maintained appropriately.

davidws6 · 09-24-2009, 05:48 PM

Something I'd be concerned of is the long stroke on the stock short cylinder sleeves in that 6.0 block ? Plus it's bored a little and if there is a lot of casting shift, you might have some really thin cylinder walls.

If they use a long rod and a piston that has the ring lands higher, the stroke might be ok.

Ur in Ottawa Ks. ? I'm from Basehor over by the Leavenworth way ! But it was either go to Jacksonville, FL. or become unemployed ! I took the latter choice...

KCFormula · 09-24-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidws6

Something I'd be concerned of is the long stroke on the stock short cylinder sleeves in that 6.0 block ? Plus it's bored a little and if there is a lot of casting shift, you might have some really thin cylinder walls.

I don't know why this is the new "fad" to talk about but it is crap in a motor that isn't going to get 100k miles on it. Mine has a 4.125" stroke, has seen 8500 consistantly and run flawless for almost 5 years!

That 427 shortblock sounds like a good deal man. I'd make sure those LS3 heads are ported before you put them on top of that much displacement!

1CAMWNDR · 09-25-2009, 09:17 AM

Wiseco makes a piston specificly to deal with the oil issues and ring pack trouble with the 4.100" and 4.125" cranks. That is why I chose them.

Schwanke Engines · 09-25-2009, 11:11 AM

Here is the answer for the Armor coating
As far as the other components, we can mix and match, but we have had zero failures with the Eagle Crank and rods. The rods we stay away from are the Compstar's. It seemed when we would put them in the race cars, they had a tendancy to break, so we stay away from them. We can get Wiseco's for more.

nocooler · 09-25-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwanke Engines

Here is the answer for the Armor coating
As far as the other components, we can mix and match, but we have had zero failures with the Eagle Crank and rods. The rods we stay away from are the Compstar's. It seemed when we would put them in the race cars, they had a tendancy to break, so we stay away from them. We can get Wiseco's for more.

What kind of RPM limit with this bore/stroke. Any issues turning it 6800-7200rpm?

frito1 · 09-25-2009, 12:11 PM

^^ Good question. I want to make around 600 fwhp or 500 rwhp with a stalled auto so I might have to rev some. Good cam and better springs....

It seems the $275 armor coating might be worth it for hp and longevity. They make it sound pretty sweet and I fully understand their theory. Anybody have any experience with it?

Do I need the sealed power rings for an NA application? They seem more like spray and FI rings.

Are wiseco slugs superior to mahle? I'm a little concerned about oil burning issues with this long of stroke. I want to make sure this combo will do ok in that department. I will have an oil catch can for the intake issues but the rings have to take care of the lower end part.

Schwanke Engines · 09-25-2009, 12:28 PM

6800 would be fine, 7200 is really pushing it I feel. We have a USMTS A modified running the 4" stroke 415 to 7400 every single lap. This equates to a mean piston speed of 4933 ft/sec. At 6800 with the 4.125" stroke your mean piston speed will be 4675 ft/sec and 7200 would be 4950.
Hope this helps. I think the real difference I can see so far is the Wiseco is a 2618 piston and the Mahle's for now are 4032.

frito1 · 09-25-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwanke Engines

Hope this helps. I think the real difference I can see so far is the Wiseco is a 2618 piston and the Mahle's for now are 4032.

Please excuse my ignorance.... what are you meaning here? Thanks for your help.

Stang's Bane · 09-25-2009, 02:18 PM

Budget and 427 do not belong in the same sentence. Unless it is "Building a 427 really blew my budget"

frito1 · 09-25-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stang's Bane

Budget and 427 do not belong in the same sentence. Unless it is "Building a 427 really blew my budget"

This will be budget compared to the LSX454 crate motor I was going to buy from GM (when it finally comes out). I'm guessing that will be around $18k with all "one off" parts in it

Schwanke Engines · 09-25-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frito1

Please excuse my ignorance.... what are you meaning here? Thanks for your help.

A 2618 alloy piston is much harder than a 4032 alloy. The down side is with the molecules being tighter, it also has to expand more with the same amount of heat. This is fine for racing as you regularly change oil and some consumption is not an issue nor is a little cold piston slap. With a 4032, it brings the forged piston closer to factory growth rates as compared with hypereutectic pistons.

So, in short, a 2618 can handle more power and heat due to hardness, downside, more startup noise and possibly some oil consumption on startup.

frito1 · 09-25-2009, 04:03 PM

OK great info. I'm on board with you now. So if I were looking for a solid NA motor, the Mahle pistons would be a good choice? How much testing have you done with the 427 (in the 6.0 block) to know longevity and if any excessive oil consumption issues will be present?

Are the LS3 heads going to need touched to reach my goals?

racer7088 · 09-25-2009, 04:29 PM

I would not use any of the 4032 Mahle stuff for NOS but other than that they are good stuff in most apps.

Never ever had a Compstar rod fail around here even on crazy power adder or extreme rpm stuff? I've never had an Eagle or SCAT rod fail either though.

Gen414 · 09-25-2009, 04:43 PM

Well, I think our 427" falls into a "budget" category....$4500 4.125 bore x 4.00 stroke, aluminum block (dry sleeve)

We use Compstar crank and rods, wiseco pistons...all good parts. SO, while it is a "budget" shortblock ($$$$) we use top end parts.

hard to touch that price.

You can check it out on my site (see sig) here:

http://www.morrismotorsports.net/sho...formance_parts

Any questions, let me know...
thanks