Automotive News, Media & Press - GOP puts brakes on Auto bailout

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/business/july-dec08/autobill_12-10.html

just saw this on cnn i guess republicans arent too convinced the auto industrys will come out of this

I'm embarrassed to be a Republican right now..

I'm embarrassed to be a Republican right now..

You should be proud of this, they are doing the right thing.

All the bailout does is prolong the inevitable and set a dangerous precedent for the government to take control of private companies.

Government assistance is already available for businesses in this bad of shape, it's called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

You should be proud of this, they are doing the right thing.

All the bailout does is prolong the inevitable and set a dangerous precedent for the government to take control of private companies.

Government assistance is already available for businesses in this bad of shape, it's called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Exactly. That 14 Billion could go to pay for the salaries of Blackwater mercenaries operating in Iraq for another two months.

We have to think of national security people.

I understand..

I concur GM did it to themselves and there's plenty of blam to go around, but I just don't want to see GM go under. My father was laid off from GM a number of years ago and I still have 1 surviving grandfather who still collects a pension from GM. It really effects things back home... its rather iritating seeing how Michigan is doing in general. They've been in a one state recession for a long time and this little episode isn't going to help either.

I hope they fillibuster any bailout, but I suspect changes wil be made to get a few republicans to sign on, thats just how it works. They put up the initial resistance as a party for some headlines then the bill gets revised with some pork for just a few of the republicans for their districts so they will sign on to the bill.

The bill passes and the party as a whole can still claim they were against it.

I hate these bailouts. Maybe i can organize all the small computer and IT businesses and we can go get our bailout. :jest:

Exactly. That 14 Billion could go to pay for the salaries of Blackwater mercenaries operating in Iraq for another two months.

We have to think of national security people.

I've had thoughts along the same lines myself (not specifically Blackwater, but the whole project). We're spending many billions of dollars per month trying to secure a shithole (that happens to have oil). While we let 3 automakers with millions of AMERICANS sit around and wonder about their jobs.

I wish Iraq didn't have oil. Would we be there? No, we would not. It was a shithole long before I was born, it'll be a shithole long after I'm gone, and every dime we spend there won't make a damn bit of difference. These people aren't the Japanese (who took our assistance and ran with it). I don't believe the Iraqi people have it in them to pull themselves up at this point. Too much infighting and hatred there. It's just their culture to hate and kill each other.

We need to stop saving the world and save our own asses at this point.

Meh, I'm done. :lol:

Exactly. That 14 Billion could go to pay for the salaries of Blackwater mercenaries operating in Iraq for another two months.

We have to think of national security people.


Or we could just put it back in the bank rather than spending it at all.

Or we could just put it back in the bank rather than spending it at all.

Winner.

I've had thoughts along the same lines myself (not specifically Blackwater, but the whole project). We're spending many billions of dollars per month trying to secure a shithole (that happens to have oil). While we let 3 automakers with millions of AMERICANS sit around and wonder about their jobs.

The Big Three don't directly or indirectly employ 'millions' of people. That's a hugely inflated number. Those jobs are also already lost.

The American automotive industry is a massive black hole for money and the only way it can really be fixed is trimming all the overhead (meaning jobs) and debt hanging over the companies to structure them into something profitable and viable. Before the market cratered this year there was still not enough consumers buying vehicles from these companies to support them as-is. Now that the market has drastically shrank there really is no way they can go on.

All this bailout does is waste everyone's money to subsidize the Union and companies that have failed, and what makes their jobs any more important than yours or mine?

The bailout bill just passed the House.

2009 is going to suck.

You should be proud of this, they are doing the right thing.

All the bailout does is prolong the inevitable and set a dangerous precedent for the government to take control of private companies.

Government assistance is already available for businesses in this bad of shape, it's called Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Bingo!

The bailout bill just passed the House.

:disgust:

son of a bitch. so i guess more money thrown down the drain aye?

sure doesn't seem to have helped GM's stock out any :rolleyes:

The bailout bill just passed the House.

And is getting shot down in the senate. I'm glad to see there are still some real republicans in congress.

I'm much less worried about 14 billion to the Big 3 than 700 billion to the banking industry.

All you guys don't seem to understand that with this bailout come conditions.... pelosi and reid will stick all these stupid "green" conditions on it which will just make matter worse and its just another attempt to Al Gore Certify the auto industry, as if the CAFE standards and all that crap aren't enough.

they must go through chapter 11 and ditch the union and their outrageous overhead in order to survive.

I'm for and against the Chapter 11, what most don't realize is that some UAW contracts will not just disapear if they go into Chapter 11. I also have that fear that most Americans will not buy a car from a bankrupt company. If you read the way it is generally written they say the contracts "could" or "potentially may" disapear.

GM's turnaround plans were working before the credit crunch

Before moving down to the south my father, his brother, and my grandfather all worked for GM in Lindon N.J. I understand letting them go down with what all happened, but I don't understand if they have to learn the hard way, why don't the banks.
It's all BS and so the world turns.

We have to think of national security people.True.
And if the Big 3 close their doors, guess who suffers from the loss of those VAST tax dollars generated by the THREE MILLION PLUS JOBS that suddenly go away and of course the subsequent unemployement benefits that will then be PAID OUT afterwards?
You guessed it, the military.

GM/Ford/Chrysler MUST be saved at all costs.

I'm much less worried about 14 billion to the Big 3 than 700 billion to the banking industry.As you should be, :nono: this ain't over yet. :(

Its a big shit sandwich and we all about to take a big bite.

Some estimates put the total economic bailout @ about $8 Trillion!!!!!!!!!!!!

That $700B has already been mismanaged... and members of congress are already admitting it.

That $700B ticks me off a LOT more than the proposed $14B to the big 3..... although that $14 will become $100B before it is over.

Holy shit. I just read on CNN that the bailout bill collapsed over Union wages.

Got to hand it to the Mo-Town boys. Those pipe hitting nigga's are going to take the whole ship down with them.

You guys act like this money is gonna be a gift to the auto companys. It is a loan. A loan that will save american jobs. It wasn't the assembly line workers makeing million dollar bonuses while the ship was sinking or using the fuel guzzling company jet to go god knows where. Some of you guys should pull your head outa of your ass and look at the big picture. America has turned into a country that doesn't make anything. We import things faster than we export. I personaly can't stomach the thought of driving a toyota,honda,hyundia,scion or the like. I would rather the money I spend on a vehicle stay here in our economy than going over seas. There are no less than 4 vehicles parked here in my driveway and none of them is an import.

I also support Unions. Union jobs have put a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The paper workers union is making shure my Aunt doesn't get screwed with her burn injurys and are helping her with retraining to find her a new job (she was a boiler operator at a local paper mill when there was a steam explosion) The UAW is not an evil organization that is out to destroy the automakers. Its workers who want to provide for themselves and family. Those guys bust ass everyday working just like most everyone on here does. End rant. I'll but on nomex now because someone will probally take this personal.

Holy shit. I just read on CNN that the bailout bill collapsed over Union wages.

yep..... http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20081211/Congress.Autos/

You guys act like this money is gonna be a gift to the auto companys. It is a loan. A loan that will save american jobs. It wasn't the assembly line workers makeing million dollar bonuses while the ship was sinking or using the fuel guzzling company jet to go god knows where. Some of you guys should pull your head outa of your ass and look at the big picture. America has turned into a country that doesn't make anything. We import things faster than we export. I personaly can't stomach the thought of driving a toyota,honda,hyundia,scion or the like. I would rather the money I spend on a vehicle stay here in our economy than going over seas. There are no less than 4 vehicles parked here in my driveway and none of them is an import.

I also support Unions. Union jobs have put a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The paper workers union is making shure my Aunt doesn't get screwed with her burn injurys and are helping her with retraining to find her a new job (she was a boiler operator at a local paper mill when there was a steam explosion) The UAW is not an evil organization that is out to destroy the automakers. Its workers who want to provide for themselves and family. Those guys bust ass everyday working just like most everyone on here does. End rant. I'll but on nomex now because someone will probally take this personal.


I think their problem with unions and GM is pretty simple. During 2007.... GM and Toyota produced about the same number of cars. Toyota made $17 Billion, GM LOST $38 Billion.

There has to be reasons for the losses.... given each company made the same number of cars.... the only reason GM wouldn't have made money would be due to very serious cost over runs.... some of that must be wages.

Also bare in mind that GM is asking for a LOAN from the US Government. In the senators eyes.... UAW workers should be willing to accept a wage concession as part of the deal.

Chrysler workers accepted such a wage concession back in the 1980's when Chrysler got their loan.

I think the view here is, "If non-union auto workers can work for less $, so can UAW members."

That $700B ticks me off a LOT more than the proposed $14B to the big 3..... although that $14 will become $100B before it is over.

That should also make you mad. And the government running GM and the show would have made it that much worse.

You guys act like this money is gonna be a gift to the auto companys. It is a loan. A loan that will save american jobs. .

The jobs can't be saved, they are toast. The new car market dropped by half in less than a year, it's over folks. The long slow slide of marketshare that started years ago was put on fast forward by the economic crisis.

The UAW bankrupted it's host and the host has been mismanaged for decades. The American auto industry is a huge, festering morass and the only way to fix it is radical surgery.

Bankruptcy.

The way I look at it.... either way isn't a good option.

LOANS= LOANS that will NEVER be repaid... they will be too far in debt to ever climb back out.... if it is anywhere near the $100B that some experts say it will take. And consider that if they get massive loans like that.... the infamous car czar will no doubt require cars to be made that none of us will ever want and will kill off the ones we would want.

Bankruptcy.... IF they survive.... they come back a much smaller company... selling probably only Cadillac, Chevy and Trucks.... but maybe that would be better... I mean.... I know most of us here on LS1tech don't give a crap about the small car market.

Maybe it would be better if the government treated GM as a military contractor, think about it. The big 3 would essentially compete for money to build the best car(s) for americas needs which means quality goes up.Yeah it is a bit far fetched and it doesnt address union wages, and my understanding of economics isnt that great but its not like government influencing a manufacturing company hasnt produced great products.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/9186.jpg

I'm not so convinced about the notion of people not doing business with a bankrupt company. Nearly every airline we all fly on has filed bankruptcy. People kept flying while they were in bankruptcy, and now that the companies have emerged and are doing better, people are still flying. Autos are big ticket items true enough, and that may change things for some people. Frankly I tend to think that most of those people would not have bought a domestic to begin with.

So a few people don't buy domestics while they are in bankruptcy. Short term loss for a better long term goal of getting the necessary restructuring in place now rather than after several bailouts down the road. Personally, I'd rather see all 3 of the US automakers file bankruptcy on the same day and restructure than give government the control that Reid and Pelosi want. Let the 3 restructure, give them some corporate tax breaks, and let them get back to building vehicles.

To not give the auto companies the loans they need would be a monumental mistake. The US needs a healthy manufacturing industry. We need to actually make things, to create wealth. How else can we support our hordes of lawyers and psychotherapists? Simply blaming the auto industry’s problems on greedy workers and stupid management is simply ignorant. The domestic auto companies are weak and many of their problems are self-inflicted, but the immediate problem, the problem that threatens their survival, is that banks are not lending. GM can’t buy steel; would-be car buyers can’t get loans.

Reorganizing under bankruptcy is not an option for car makers because car buyers need to be confident they will have long-term service and support. “Bankruptcy” chases car buyers away.

Our government has given hundreds of billions to banks and insurance companies – paper pushers. Congress granted those billions because they knew they didn’t understand what was happening and they were afraid to oppose financial officials who claimed to understand - well and good. But while they admit they don’t understand modern banking, they all know how easy it would be to build better, cheaper, more efficient cars. And they all know how to grandstand and ridicule corporate executives. And because they are embarrassed that they have dumped 150 billion into AIG, they are now free-market purists. Let the chips fall where they may.

The Senate has adjourned until January.... I doubt there will be any movement on this issue until the Obama administration takes office.... and it may even be difficult to pass then.... that is IF it's not too late.

The American auto industry is a huge, festering morass and the only way to fix it is radical surgery.

Bankruptcy.Nah, we're way past that point even, it's basically all over now.
Next up, bread lines and soup kitchens.
Apparently, Japan/Germany won WWII afterall.


And for all of you out there that actually cheered this demise on/wished for this collapse to happen, you'll grow to eat those words/thoughts soon enough, trust me.

The Senate has adjourned until January.... I doubt there will be any movement on this issue until the Obama administration takes office.... and it may even be difficult to pass then.... that is IF it's not too late.It will be too late, game over.

Maybe it would be better if the government treated GM as a military contractor, think about it.Nah no need for that, the U.S. military can now turn to Toyota/Honda/BMW for any defense/security/contractual needs.

That's quite poetic huh, the U.S. relying on Japan or Germany for it's national security/survival. :lol:

I also support Unions. Union jobs have put a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The paper workers union is making shure my Aunt doesn't get screwed with her burn injurys and are helping her with retraining to find her a new job (she was a boiler operator at a local paper mill when there was a steam explosion) The UAW is not an evil organization that is out to destroy the automakers. Its workers who want to provide for themselves and family. Those guys bust ass everyday working just like most everyone on here does. End rant. I'll but on nomex now because someone will probally take this personal.

Fuck the unions. Non-union jobs put a roof over the heads of most citizens. Why aren't non-union automakers begging the government to take my money? Because they don't have unions.

And for all of you out there that actually cheered this demise on/wished for this collapse to happen, you'll grow to eat those words/thoughts soon enough, trust me.

The only thing that will collapse is the UAW. Good riddings.

Republicans refused to back federal aid for Detroit's beleaguered Big Three without a guarantee that the United Auto Workers would agree by the end of next year to wage cuts to bring their pay into line with U.S. plants of Japanese carmakers. The UAW refused to do so before its current contract with the automakers expires in 2011.

Summary: Your favorite UAW crooks decided the fate of their host. They would prefer to put their employees out on the street instead of accept paycuts. Brilliant!

UAW needs to go away for good.

Summary: Your favorite UAW crooks decided the fate of their host. They would prefer to put their employees out on the street instead of accept paycuts. Brilliant!

UAW needs to go away for good.

Agreed, UAW has been abusing their power for too long.

anyone who wants to say that the UAW isn't the problem is a moron, plain and simple

Summary: Your favorite UAW crooks decided the fate of their host. They would prefer to put their employees out on the street instead of accept paycuts. Brilliant!

UAW needs to go away for good.

IF they(the big three) survive through bankruptcy.... The UAW will be gone!!!!!

US Auto bailout failure causes world markets to slide

http://www.edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/12/12/global.markets/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

US market is predicted to take a similar slide this morning.

For investors... might have already lost what any bailout would have ever cost.

This is gonna get really ugly. Economy was bad enough, im actually scared about how bad its gonna get now. At least gas prices are down

Summary: Your favorite UAW crooks decided the fate of their host. They would prefer to put their employees out on the street instead of accept paycuts. Brilliant!

UAW needs to go away for good.

IMO, the UAW is betting its chips that the companies will survive outside of bankruptcy until the new senate goes into effect along with BHO's inauguration.

Whitehouse issues statement calling Senate vote "irresponsible"

President Bush to consider using TARP funds for auto bailout.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/White-House-considers-using-TARP/story.aspx?guid=%7B408219CE-A3C2-45F0-8AA5-1299D35FA4A0%7D

I'm embarrassed to be a Republican right now..


Oh please, for Christ Sake think.

Every GOP senate member could support this bill and the bill would fail because the GOP doesn't have the fXXXXXX votes. :D

If you were a GOP senate member would you support anything you hadn't read? :bang: Weren't involved in? :chug: The bill failed because there weren't enough votes. Everyone wasn't attending the session.

Toyota and GM build about the same number of vehicles world wide each year. One makes money the other doesn't. The issues are very complex. People will be hurt. File Chapter 11. Rid GM of it's management team and it's Union contracts and benefits. Do over!!! Save the Fxxxxxx industry. Fxxx both management and the UAW.

Everyone is hurting. My 401 K-cup retirement plan is now a 101 B cup.:barf: I did nothing wrong. A little is still better than nothing.:engarde:

:angel: Jakes Dad

Nah no need for that, the U.S. military can now turn to Toyota/Honda/BMW for any defense/security/contractual needs.

That's quite poetic huh, the U.S. relying on Japan or Germany for it's national security/survival. :lol:


Least the military's veichles will last longer now with less maintanence.

Do I think Uaw should make consessions to help GM? Yes they should. But that union has done alot to improve safety and conditions in those autoplants. In fact some of the safety standards they helped write have made the foriegn companys here safer. If hyundia built cars here like the do in their own country you would all cry foul.

Least the military's veichles will last longer now with less maintanence.


That is simply a statement of ignorance.

GM builds cars/trucks equal to or better than anything made by that toy company. :usa:

Least the military's veichles will last longer now with less maintanence.


HAHAHA ! That's messed up bro. :lol:



.

That is simply a statement of ignorance.

GM builds cars/trucks equal to or better than anything made by that toy company. :usa:

After spending countless hours in POS Humvees, I'll take the B6 armored Peacekeeper Toyota Land Cruiser, thank you. And it's not made by the UAW Mob.

Whitehouse issues statement calling Senate vote "irresponsible"

President Bush to consider using TARP funds for auto bailout.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/White-House-considers-using-TARP/story.aspx?guid=%7B408219CE-A3C2-45F0-8AA5-1299D35FA4A0%7D

Whatever faith I had left is Bush was just lost. This guy is a moron. If we give them the money without cutting pay to something more realistic then its just delaying the inevitable. Plus the auto companies need to make cars people want and make them reliable.

I don't know...I seem to have to replaced alot of parts on my American cars and not so much on my family's "toy" cars. Simple stuff too, like a window motor that last 70K in one but the life of the car in another.


That is simply a statement of ignorance.

GM builds cars/trucks equal to or better than anything made by that toy company. :usa:

Yeah.... like those GTRs that blow trannys!!!!!!!!

I'd rather have a window motor go out than a tranny any day.

Yeah the one car that has problems, good rebuttle.
Please read any year of Consumer reports.

Consumer reports.... oh please.... those guys couldn't rate a bottle opener rather loan a car.

Consumer reports.... oh please.... those guys couldn't rate a bottle opener rather loan a car.

yeah, what do consumers know anyways. You'd be a shoe-in for upper management at GM.

Yup. They just happen to be widely used by consumers in every market

Funny, you say a magazine isn't good at their job, but you seem to believe and American car company is/can.

Fuck the unions. Non-union jobs put a roof over the heads of most citizens. Why aren't non-union automakers begging the government to take my money? Because they don't have unions.

+1 Could have not said it better

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/11/news/companies/whitehouse_warning/?postversion=2008121209

yeah, what do consumers know anyways. You'd be a shoe-in for upper management at GM.

Yup. They just happen to be widely used by consumers in every market

Funny, you say a magazine isn't good at their job, but you seem to believe and American car company is/can.

Consumer reports is simply a mag. If you want to believe whats in there.... I feel sorry for you.

I have NEVER found Consumer Reports mag to be a reliable source for making an informed buying decision on any product.

A mag that specializes in testing products and giving unbiased feedback on those products while also polling consumers to see what the average joe thinks about it.
So you believe whats in CHP or no cause that's just a mag? Your argument for it makes no sence.

So... you buy products based upon what the average joe knows????

No wonder I find fault with Consumer Reports.

ahh well....

I saw on FBN that they said if they do use the tarp fund they will also have strict guidelines in regards to compensation and many other issues. If this is true I guess Im better with it. Still dont like the idea of bailing out any company.

Yeah.... like those GTRs that blow trannys!!!!!!!!

I'd rather have a window motor go out than a tranny any day.

Fbody trannys arent much better. Ive seen people on here say their 6 speed started going out at 18k miles, average is probably 40-50.

There is about 15 billion left of the first 350 billion that was allocated for the Wall street bailout. If Bush uses that 15 billion for the auto companies bailout, it will actually be a better result from the perspective of the auto companies.

That's because the money has very few strings attached (which is one reason why the financial bailout hasn't had the effect that congress intended) and because the auto companies will still have the 25 billion R&D that was already allocated for fuel efficient cars. The 25 billion WAS going to be used for the loan but since that failed, the 25 billion will still be there.

More money with fewer strings. They will like it IF IT HAPPENS.

Fbody trannys arent much better. Ive seen people on here say their 6 speed started going out at 18k miles, average is probably 40-50.


True...... but that's still better than the GTRs.

My stock Tranny is still good with 65k miles... maybe its not the car its the driver...

I just bailed on my 119 shares of GM stock :|

This pisses me off about as much as the NYS gov't and buying jap cars for the DOT and DMV. Lets see GM has how many plants and research centers in NY (4 or 5) and contributes how much to your tax dollars every year? Millions.....

Honda and Yota have zero in NY and I swear they have more of those than anything else.

The current US Senate has 100 members

49 GOP

49 DEM

1 - IND

For this bill to pass you needed 51 votes. My two Ohio Senators voted for the bill. One from both party. Prove to anyone all 48 other GOP Senators voted against this bill! The original poster is WRONG. The UAW President and the news media both said it's the GOP's fault, the bill failed. That's not Fxxxxxx possible. :bang::bang::bang:

:angel: Jakes Dad

This is gonna get really ugly. Economy was bad enough, im actually scared about how bad its gonna get now.This is only the tip of the iceburg.
Close the Big 3 and then the 3 million+ directly (and indirectly) related jobs go away shortly after.
No more jobs also means no more tax dollars.
No more tax dollars means no more unemployment benefits/government assistance.
No more unemployment benefits/welfare assistance means people will get it anyway they can (ie: steal it, kill for it).
Fewer tax dollars means less funds for military/National Guardsmen/police forces to prevent/curtail crime (and defend this great nation).

You all see where this is going, right?

Fbody trannys arent much better. Ive seen people on here say their 6 speed started going out at 18k miles, average is probably 40-50.And plenty have also lasted well over 150k miles and that's WITH heavy racing abuse/seriously destructive use on the street.
And F-bodies didn't sell for $71k - $120k like the GTR.

The current US Senate has 100 members

49 GOP

49 DEM

1 - IND

For this bill to pass you needed 51 votes. My two Ohio Senators voted for the bill. One from both party. Prove to anyone all 48 other GOP Senators voted against this bill! The original poster is WRONG. The UAW President and the news media both said it's the GOP's fault, the bill failed. That's not Fxxxxxx possible. :bang::bang::bang:

:angel: Jakes Dad

Actually.... they needed 60 votes to pass the bill.

52 voted for 35 against.

So... only 87 of the 99 members voted.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1295325/senate_vote_on_auto_bailout_goes_down.html?cat=9


The auto bailout failed in the Senate after no deal could be made between Democrats and Republicans to compromise on the bailout package. The bailout was voted on and was approved by 52 Senators, and opposed by 35 of them. However, the bailout fell well short of the 60 votes it needed to get approved.

IF 8 of the remaining 12 members had voted for the bill..... it would have passed with the 60 required votes.

This is only the tip of the iceburg.
Close the Big 3 and then the 3 million+ directly (and indirectly) related jobs go away shortly after.
No more jobs also means no more tax dollars.
No more tax dollars means no more unemployment benefits/government assistance.
No more unemployment benefits/welfare assistance means people will get it anyway they can (ie: steal it, kill for it).
Fewer tax dollars means less funds for military/National Guardsmen/police forces to prevent/curtail crime (and defend this great nation).

You all see where this is going, right?

Anarchy!!!!!!!

So... in other word... grab tanks, guns, missiles, and anything else you can get your hands on NOW.

RELAX..... As for this problem.... looks like Bush is going to let them use TARP funding.

Actually.... they needed 60 votes to pass the bill.

52 voted for 35 against.

So... only 87 of the 99 members voted.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1295325/senate_vote_on_auto_bailout_goes_down.html?cat=9



IF 8 of the remaining 12 members had voted for the bill..... it would have passed with the 60 required votes.

You need 2/3 to override a President veto

If your statment is true why does the VP have a vote on tie votes?

This was only a senate procedural vote to determine whether there were enough votes to override a Republican filibuster if it occurred. (Republicans had threatened fiflbuster). If a filibuster had occured, it would require a 2/3 majority of the senate to stop the filibuster. There weren't enough votes so Reid didn't bring it to the floor.

You need 2/3 to override a President veto

If your statment is true why does the VP have a vote on tie votes?

Bush wasnt going to veto anything anyway.

Nah, we're way past that point even, it's basically all over now.
Next up, bread lines and soup kitchens.
Apparently, Japan/Germany won WWII afterall.

:jest: You are really naive enough to believe that a govenment bailout will save them? Chrystler got a bailout loan years ago and look theyre back again for more now.

LOL @ your soup kitchen and bread line comments.

Least the military's veichles will last longer now with less maintanence.


:werd: Our humvees wont start to leak oil everytime I take it around the block. :jest:

Yeah.... like those GTRs that blow trannys!!!!!!!!

I'd rather have a window motor go out than a tranny any day.

Lets not even get started on garbage transmissions, cough Ford, cough.

I'm much less worried about 14 billion to the Big 3 than 700 billion to the banking industry.

Smartest comment yet...you are EXACTLY correct.:nod:

LOL @ your soup kitchen and bread line comments.

No kidding lol. No bailout and the country will go up in flames because people in the ghetto won't get their free check and will kill everyone haha. Last year GM and Toyota each sold 9.3 million vehicles. Toyota had a 17 billion profit and GM lost 38 billion. That's the result of UAW labor costs. I can understand democrat politicians supporting this bailout because they pander for union votes. Everyone else is just stupid.

The issue that ruined the bailout vote was the UAW issues.... the UAW need(s)ed to look at this from the standpoint of it will save their jobs.... if GM goes under.... their jobs go away FOREVER!!!!!!

I have been split on the bailout issue... however I could support it with certain requirements.... and under the "too big to fail" guise somewhat similar to AIG.... maybe more so.

One major sticking point is GM's debt. They owe $62Billion!!!!!!!! One of those requirements should be to require all creditors to accept a reduction like in the bill that failed.

I suspect that Bush will give GM a bailout from the TARP funding... although that won't be the end of the bailout(s). I believe that these bailout(s) will eventually become little more than subsidies to the auto industry.

Long term.... the bailout(s) could still be a lot cheaper than the price of failure. :usa:

:jest: You are really naive enough to believe that a govenment bailout will save them? Chrystler got a bailout loan years ago and look theyre back again for more now.Yeah, let's just conveniently and selectively leave out those 20+ years of thriving success (and the U.S. employment/tax dollars it provided) the company ALSO experienced since that last loan. :eyes:
And you're calling me naive? :lol:

But that union has done alot to improve safety and conditions in those autoplants. In fact some of the safety standards they helped write have made the foriegn companys here safer. If hyundia built cars here like the do in their own country you would all cry foul.

You actually believe the UAW is needed for safety reasons? Bullshit. I agree that the unions promoted safe work places back in the early days of manufacturing, but they largely haven't been needed since about the 1970s. Now we have Govt and other departments that enforce safety standards in the workplace. Ever heard of OSHA? Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

Now the unions are just there to make sure that unskilled workers get overpaid, create strikes and use a mob mentality to get their way. They are just a blood-sucking leech on the host. This latest decision to turn down paycuts shows exactly how much the union officials care about their workers and host companies. NOTHING.

Executive Orders

By Ken Elias
December 13, 2008

Earlier this month, in their search for bailout bucks for Detroit, Congress caved to the President’s insistence that legislators leave the $700b Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) alone. Last week, Congress failed to activate Plan B: hijacking the $25b funds they’d already allocated to the Department of Energy for “retooling” loans. At the eleventh hour, President Bush said, “Oh, alright then. Let’s talk TARP.” And so Plan C: the President of The United State will outline his plan to put up to $15b in play from the TARP monies. It’s a stunning about-face, whose details will be revealed on Monday. Those are the broad strokes. Before suggesting the presidential approach to Detroit’s debacle, let’s zoom in…

Congress’ bailout bill blew-up in the Senate, not the House, which gladly offered-up your money for a faulty plan. The Senate Republicans were not happy creating a powerless “car czar” to oversee the public purse. Senator Dick Shelby was right– the toothless bill would have become an endless payout to Detroit. Senator Corker offered the United Auto Workers (UAW) a deal to make it work. UAW Boss Ron Gettelfinger passed on “parity” with the transplants, as Corker demanded in his alternative legislation. Big Ron said they’d talk about it at their next contract round, in 2011.

And there you have it: proof positive that the UAW isn’t about to make a wholesale change in how they do business. If left in the care of an enfeebled car czar, they’d go along to get along, and nothing more. And now the UAW is banking on money from the TARP as a “holdover”– so they can maintain the status quo until a Democratic President and Congress can… maintain the status quo.

And this is just the union side of the equation. For some reason, GM CEO and Chairman of the Board Rick Wagoner is still in charge of the failed American automaker. Congress has bought Wagoner’s umpteenth “turnaround plan” without question. This despite the fact that its worst case scenario is too optimistic by half and there is nothing within it– nothing– that promises a necessary product and brand-related renaissance. As long as Wagoner’s administration remains, the possibility of GM making profits is– indeed remains– minimal.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorial-bailout-watch-287-executive-orders/

[QUOTE=Nine Ball;10653533]You actually believe the UAW is needed for safety reasons? Bullshit. I agree that the unions promoted safe work places back in the early days of manufacturing, but they largely haven't been needed since about the 1970s. Now we have Govt and other departments that enforce safety standards in the workplace. Ever heard of OSHA? Occupational Safety and Health Administration.

Now the unions are just there to make sure that unskilled workers get overpaid, create strikes and use a mob mentality to get their way. They are just a blood-sucking leech on the host. This latest decision to turn down paycuts shows exactly how much the union officials care about their workers and host companies. NOTHING.[/QUO

Haven't been needed. How naive are you. You must never have worked for a company like Monsanto that pissed away retirement benifets for its workers. Unions protect that kind of thing. Osha is not the end all of safety my friend.

I've worked in plenty of chemical plants. That is how I put myself through college. I went to school at night. Welder and pipefitter during the day. We also had union workers in those plants too, most of them were flat out lazy and felt protected from being fired for performance. It was very difficult to run off a union worker for poor performance, their union reps would protect them.

Even before I had a degree, I had more skills than the typical UAW drone. I had to get certs to become a welder, and had to go to schools to become a pipefitter.

I wasn't naive enough to think a high school diploma would get me $30/hour in air conditioning. I knew better, and went to college.

As for retirement benefits, everyone has an opportunity to lose their benefits. It doesn't take a union to lose or protect benefits. Heard of banks going out of business? How about the losses in the stock market retirement funds? We do not need unions to handle retirement, PEOPLE should handle their OWN retirement management.

And this is just the union side of the equation. For some reason, GM CEO and Chairman of the Board Rick Wagoner is still in charge of the failed American automaker. Congress has bought Wagoner’s umpteenth “turnaround plan” without question. This despite the fact that its worst case scenario is too optimistic by half and there is nothing within it– nothing– that promises a necessary product and brand-related renaissance. As long as Wagoner’s administration remains, the possibility of GM making profits is– indeed remains– minimal.

I agree 100%, get rid of the current admin and start with a clean slate. They absolutely suck.

As for retirement benefits, everyone has an opportunity to lose their benefits. It doesn't take a union to lose or protect benefits. Heard of banks going out of business? How about the losses in the stock market retirement funds? We do not need unions to handle retirement, PEOPLE should handle their OWN retirement management.

The UAW is definitely a leech. Good choice for an analogy. The UAW have finally bled GM dry because of the absolutely ridiculous pension and health care benefits they pay out. Now they are desperate because they don't have a new host to leech from. You're absolutely right about retirement; it's up to the individual to handle their own retirement. Unions should be no different.

Haven't been needed. How naive are you. You must never have worked for a company like Monsanto that pissed away retirement benifets for its workers. Unions protect that kind of thing. Osha is not the end all of safety my friend.[/QUOTE]

it is no company's responsibility to ensure retirement for its employees. Its everyone's own responsibility PERIOD. There is no one to blame if you didn't save for retirement and want everyone but yourself to pay for it... thats a whole lot of :bs:

Exactly. Ever heard the phrase "don't put all of your eggs in one basket."

Relying on a company to pay your retirement is naive, you are gambling on that company to never go out of business or go bankrupt. Pensions were the norm back in the 1950s, but there is a reason that nobody really has them anymore.

I agree 100%, get rid of the current admin and start with a clean slate. They absolutely suck.



The UAW is definitely a leech. Good choice for an analogy. The UAW have finally bled GM dry because of the absolutely ridiculous pension and health care benefits they pay out. Now they are desperate because they don't have a new host to leech from. You're absolutely right about retirement; it's up to the individual to handle their own retirement. Unions should be no different.



its not all in the labor rates, heard of the epa? i cant even imagine what are US plants pay to stay in good standings with them. plus the shear amount they pay in property taxes on their plants. does korea,china and japan have the same enviromental laws as we do? i highly doubt it. if the feds want the labor force to be on par with overseas labor than let the plants go on par with them too.

one example is canada, they still allow open pit mining of asbestos. thats right just a big hole in the ground and digging it up.

im in ny and just got done doing alot of work in kodak.( im a union electrician)
consolidating there buildings to watch them get demolished to shrink their foot print. all to lower their tax base because the state wouldnt help them.
so they stuck up their middle finger and started blowing up their buildings!

and as far as union / non union at least for the skilled trades end......my company bids against non union companies and we get alot of the work.
my pay 28.00, their average pay 14.00. we still make a profit. so id like to think of myself and my fellow workers far from lazy. to be quite honest, if you cant pull your weight, i lay you off.

should the uaw work on making some concessesions? yes
is it all their fault? no

its more than labor rates you have to figure.


and while we touching on different manufacturing and enviromental standards.......... HOW HARD IS IT TO MAKE A TOY WITH NO LEAD PAINT?

oh thats right, thats an american law thing they just keep forgeting about.

NO.... your didn't read that wrong....

Even Toyota fears harm from a GM demise....

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/index.htm