Automotive News, Media & Press - A plan for a bailout

my plan would be every u.s. citizen should be able to go vote on the bailout

just like we vote for american idol or anything else, if we are going to be the ones paying for it then we should vote on it..... i dont see why we have these douche bags in office that determine if this bill gets passed or this one dosent

cuz these same douche bags in office are part of the reason the economy is in the crapper right now...

there is too much corruption in politics, look at what citigroup is getting $306 billion..... and GM, FORD, and CHRYSLER are only asking for 1/10th of that amount and they have alot more peoples jobs at stake than citigroup

all cuz the secretary of treasury is butt buddies with the ceo of citigroup

now the only reason i would want to help bailout the big 3 is for all the real working americans with familys that need their jobs

if that wasnt the case i would want the big 3 to go down in the hole they dug

you have a good point, i like the idea that we should vote on things like this, but it will never happen

a bailout of the big 3 doesn't fix their problems... please tell me why as a taxpayer I should have to pay for a company (or three in this case) that have lousy business plans?

Don't say "Well we are bailing out banks, why not the auto industry?" that's not an argument for the bailout of the automakers. Fact is nobody should get bailed out, where do you draw the line?

The big 3 need to file for bankruptcy protection and renegotiate all their current contracts with suppliers,etc. and scrap the UAW.

The big 3 need to file for bankruptcy protection and renegotiate all their current contracts with suppliers,etc. and scrap the UAW.That's really just a nice way of saying you feel that they just need to go away entirely...because that's likely what will happen once the average (stupid) consumer hears that the company they're considering buying a vehicle from is in the middle of bankruptcy/restructure proceedings.
No, I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for these loans (yes loans, NOT bailouts) but let me ask you this...you'd rather pay for the unemployment benefits/health insurance coverages/welfare/food stamps of ALL of those people once they're perpetually out of work?:huh:
You're going to paying at least something either way bro.

my plan would be every u.s. citizen should be able to go vote on the bailoutBetter yet, here's a novel idea.
Why don't the many loyal, faithful AMERICAN CITIZENS of this great nation simply just start buying AMERICAN NAMEPLATE vehicles instead of a fv<king JAPANESE, KOREAN or GERMAN one? :confused:

Sure would solve A LOT (but certainly not all) of these problems now wouldn't it.

...you do know this isn't a democracy right?

a bailout of the big 3 doesn't fix their problems... please tell me why as a taxpayer I should have to pay for a company (or three in this case) that have lousy business plans?

Don't say "Well we are bailing out banks, why not the auto industry?" that's not an argument for the bailout of the automakers. Fact is nobody should get bailed out, where do you draw the line?

The big 3 need to file for bankruptcy protection and renegotiate all their current contracts with suppliers,etc. and scrap the UAW.

That's really just a nice way of saying you feel that they just need to go away entirely...because that's likely what will happen once the average (stupid) consumer hears that the company they're considering buying a vehicle from is in the middle of bankruptcy/restructure proceedings.
No, I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for these loans (yes loans, NOT bailouts) but let me ask you this...you'd rather pay for the unemployment benefits/health insurance coverages/welfare/food stamps of ALL of those people once they're perpetually out of work?:huh:
You're going to paying at least something either way bro.

Either way.... it IS going to COST you something.

The cost of letting them fail is around $200B!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...lB8&refer=home

Did I miss something..... $100B<$200B

If GM goes under.... it will cause millions of job losses.... hell.... even Toyota fears it may hurt them more than it would help.

It could even drive the country in to a depression.... which would cost us Trillions and take YEARS to recover from.

Even if we wind up GIVING GM $100B.... it will be better than the price we all would pay as the result of a depression.

Also.... bare in mind..... all the auto manufacturers use the same suppliers..... even the foreign owned ones.... the suppliers go down... they could ALL go down.

The cost of failure is truly greater than the cost of a bailout!!!!!!!!!!! :usa:

Either way.... it IS going to COST you something.

The cost of letting them fail is around $200B!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...lB8&refer=home

Did I miss something..... $100B<$200B

If GM goes under.... it will cause millions of job losses.... hell.... even Toyota fears it may hurt them more than it would help.

It could even drive the country in to a depression.... which would cost us Trillions and take YEARS to recover from.

Even if we wind up GIVING GM $100B.... it will be better than the price we all would pay as the result of a depression.

Also.... bare in mind..... all the auto manufacturers use the same suppliers..... even the foreign owned ones.... the suppliers go down... they could ALL go down.

The cost of failure is truly greater than the cost of a bailout!!!!!!!!!!! :usa::werd:

a bailout of the big 3 doesn't fix their problems... please tell me why as a taxpayer I should have to pay for a company (or three in this case) that have lousy business plans?

So what about all the investment banks that got $700 billion plus? They didnt have a business plan at all except take advantage of people who couldnt afford the houses they WANTED and couldnt pay their mortage. They used HORRIBLE ethics to loan to people outside their means with an ARM loan and then jacked up the percentage on the loan after they have lived there for 4-5 years. What about them? They truly get BAILED out. Yes, they DONT have to pay a SINGLE cent of that money back. EVER.

The big 3 want a LOAN. The only way to get a low percentage loan is to go directly to the money makers in D.C.

So what about that?

That's really just a nice way of saying you feel that they just need to go away entirely...because that's likely what will happen once the average (stupid) consumer hears that the company they're considering buying a vehicle from is in the middle of bankruptcy/restructure proceedings.
No, I agree, you shouldn't have to pay for these loans (yes loans, NOT bailouts) but let me ask you this...you'd rather pay for the unemployment benefits/health insurance coverages/welfare/food stamps of ALL of those people once they're perpetually out of work?
You're going to paying at least something either way bro

The bailout doesn't allow them to cut the UAW out, congress will also put restrictions on the money - i.e. must start making super green cars that are eco-friendly which will already add on top of the ridiculous CAFE standards and other unreasonable legislation they have to meet by 2020. Giving them "loans" will solve what?? you will see them go under in a year after the loans are given to them

Either way.... it IS going to COST you something.

The cost of letting them fail is around $200B!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...lB8&refer=home

Did I miss something..... $100B<$200B

If GM goes under.... it will cause millions of job losses.... hell.... even Toyota fears it may hurt them more than it would help.

It could even drive the country in to a depression.... which would cost us Trillions and take YEARS to recover from.

Even if we wind up GIVING GM $100B.... it will be better than the price we all would pay as the result of a depression.

Also.... bare in mind..... all the auto manufacturers use the same suppliers..... even the foreign owned ones.... the suppliers go down... they could ALL go down.

The cost of failure is truly greater than the cost of a bailout!!!!!!!!!!!

those numbers are outrageously inflated. You are unbelievable if you think the automotive market is what's holding up are economy and if they go under the country goes into a depression. The automakers have been in the sh*t can for awhile now and this isn't going to stop it. Business is survival of the fittest and if you guys think that filing for bankruptcy protection is the end of a business, you don't know what your talking about.

So what about all the investment banks that got $700 billion plus? They didnt have a business plan at all except take advantage of people who couldnt afford the houses they WANTED and couldnt pay their mortage. They used HORRIBLE ethics to loan to people outside their means with an ARM loan and then jacked up the percentage on the loan after they have lived there for 4-5 years. What about them? They truly get BAILED out. Yes, they DONT have to pay a SINGLE cent of that money back. EVER.

The big 3 want a LOAN. The only way to get a low percentage loan is to go directly to the money makers in D.C.

So what about that?

You obviously needed to read what I said about no one should have gotten the bailout money. Secondly, you have no idea what your talking about. Those banks with a "bad business plan" were forced to loan to people who couldn't pay them back. Its called the Community Reinvestment Act, started by Carter and was sent snowballing under Clinton. The companies were forced to lend to them!!!! Then freddie and fannie guaranteed those loans so everyone thought they were kosher. The executives under freddie and fannie (which are both 1/2 govt owned..... do we see a trend here???????) were given bonuses based on the number of loans they backed, not based on if those loans were legitimate. Thus the executives made millions while they backed flawed/worthless paper causing a SUB PRIME housing crisis. Sub prime means these loans were likely to default... read that slowly so you understand it. Not to mention all the people who were buying houses they couldn't afford. (like buying a 250k house and not putting any money down)

You haven't got the slightest clue on the economic conditions right now and you are doing the typical finger pointing. Its BIG BAD businesses that are at fault, did you ever think that any of those foreclosures are also the people who signed the contracts' fault??? No you didn't because its so easy to look the other way and see and what you want to see.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. This bailout money won't solve any of the big 3's problems and NOBODY should be getting bailed-out. The problems are with their management and the UAW, neither of which is going away. And do you actually think the govt has this money? No they don't, they just print more off because of the ridiculous debt were in, which further hurts all of us because the dollar will keep falling with less buying power.

to quote reagan "government isn't the solution to our problem, government is the problem." There should NEVER be ownership of private companies by our government, our founding fathers are turning in their graves. This isn't capitalism and it will hurt this country. Do we have a free market anymore if we allow companies to NOT FAIL? makes no sense

p.s. In no way do I want the big 3 to go down, as I give them all my business... but you can't stop a train wreck by hitting the brakes in the last 10 feet

The problem with the "100B<200B" argument is that you are assuming that the Big 3 are suddenly going to become profitable with 100B in new money. These companies have been trending down for years. Giving... sorry, loaning them a ton of money and hoping they've "learned their lesson" is a steep assumption.

One way or another, all of our budgets are about to get a little bit tighter as this scenario plays out.

Better yet, here's a novel idea.
Why don't the many loyal, faithful AMERICAN CITIZENS of this great nation simply just start buying AMERICAN NAMEPLATE vehicles instead of a fv<king JAPANESE, KOREAN or GERMAN one? :confused:

Sure would solve A LOT (but certainly not all) of these problems now wouldn't it.

I'm a loyal American Citizen, I fly my red white and blue, I vote, I have no problem giving up my seat to a vet, I donate money to VFW, I have no problem saying the pledge or allegence.
But why should I buy an over priced car that has a horrible track record? Why should I conceed to lesser, when the UAW won't?
My familys Toyota was made here, by Americans, so I dont' see your point.

Where was yoru comptuer made? Your TV? Your Shoes? Your cell phone? This idea of "buy American to save America" is a great feel good phrase but we are in a golbal ecomony and that idea donesn't work as nicely or as easily as it sounds.

My company just closed a plant down in Nebraska that has been there for 70 years. Why? We're not seeing any more money from moving it to China, my paycheck didn't get any bigger. We had to do it because YOU/Us the consomers wanted cheap qaulity products. Sure everyone says "oh I only buy American" But from research that we have done in our catagories (and I'm sure other companies have done the same research), consumers think with their wallets. When they can get product A for 25 bucks and get the same China tool, with the same quality, for 15, they are going to buy the China tool, plain and simple cut and dry. Say all you want American made matters, and in maybe some things it does, but in our business, it doesn't mean squat. Sure people would like to have American made but cash in the pocket means alot more. Having a couple extra bucks for their vacation to the islands/Disney/the beach is more appealing.

People use to work hard for things and save up and saw not only value but pride in saving to obtain something. Now a days people expect things, and this mind set is one of the number one reasons why things are the way they are.

So to end this, please don't infer that I am any less of an American because I don't think I should have to buy a car (or anything for that matter) from a failing comany with a horrible business plan, who has done nothing about it. Maybe you should write the Big 3 and tell them they are less American because they have been producing an inferior product for the past 10-15 years and their loyal consumers have moved on, and they are only now seeing the error of their ways.

Theres a lot of jobs at risk if they fail.

Is a bailout the good answer or the right answer?
Is letting over a million people get laid off a good answer or a right answer?

its picking the lesser of the 2 evils on this one which would be the bail out

i do think the big 3 should go away but i dont want the millions of workers lose a job, maybe they can downsize and not have so many brands, nissan has 2 brands honda has 2 brands toyota has 2 brands anyone see a similarity here??? maybe our american c.e.o.'s should be more focused on 2 brands instead gm has 8 brands ford has 5 brands i think our c.e.o.'s watched the movie field of dreams and thought if you build it they will come..... well now gm has the cost and overhead of 8 different brands!!!! i think their mind is on greed instead of building a better vehicle

i think these companies are run by people that are greedy and too wealthy and care more about golfing with their ceo buddies than they care about the company they are in charge of

i have driven american vehicles since i was 16yrs old and i swore by them.... but in the last year i have bought a honda and a toyota and i have to tell you they are the best vehicles i have ever owned..... best mpg, most power, best handling, more features, more safety, alot more reliable, and higher build quality than all the american vehicles i've owned, better fit and finish from the door to the dash just everything is perfect compared to all the chevy's i have owned

i think thats cuz the amount of research and development time the japanese have while american c.e.o.'s are spending their time on the golf course instead

agreed bjjblackbelt... popa pork- I agree with you on most things, but the new CTS, malibu, and all trucks american trucks/large SUVs are very competitive and I think compete and/or beat foreign competitors cars (especially american trucks and large SUVs). However, I think it was too little, too late. Had these great vehicles came out 4 years ago, the big 3 might be in better shape but they have waited too long and in this economy, no matter how good your cars are on one is buying right now.

so I think there are good american vehicles to had, but its too late in the game.

another problem is their management/executives. People say Wagoner and his people should resign, but who would fill their shoes??? Whoever does needs to be very,very familiar with the auto market and a stellar ground-up builder.... and that is very hard to come by. There is no easy fix right now, but loaning them money doesn't address any of the issues

"However, I think it was too little, too late. Had these great vehicles came out 4 years ago, the big 3 might be in better shape"

A day late and a dollar short (well a crap load of dollars short)

"However, I think it was too little, too late. Had these great vehicles came out 4 years ago, the big 3 might be in better shape"

A day late and a dollar short (well a crap load of dollars short)

lol, that's the motto for the big 3

you don't know what your talking about.



You obviously needed to read what I said about no one should have gotten the bailout money. Secondly, you have no idea what your talking about. Those banks with a "bad business plan" were forced to loan to people who couldn't pay them back. So if you were going to give a buddy $2000 but KNEW he couldnt give it back you would still do it. Oh, wait, you're going to be forced to give them money. Im sorry that is BS. Nobody has to loan ANYBODY money if they arent capable of paying it back. Its called the Community Reinvestment Act, started by Carter and was sent snowballing under Clinton. The companies were forced to lend to them!!!! Then freddie and fannie guaranteed those loans so everyone thought they were kosher. The executives under freddie and fannie (which are both 1/2 govt owned..... do we see a trend here???????) were given bonuses based on the number of loans they backed, not based on if those loans were legitimate. Thus the executives made millions while they backed flawed/worthless paper causing a SUB PRIME housing crisis. Sub prime means these loans were likely to default... read that slowly so you understand it. Not to mention all the people who were buying houses they couldn't afford. (like buying a 250k house and not putting any money down) I know exactly what sub prime housing loans are. Maybe you need to get your head out of the clouds and stop trying to educate everybody and make them think your opinion is right.

You haven't got the slightest clue on the economic conditions right now and you are doing the typical finger pointing. Its BIG BAD businesses that are at fault, did you ever think that any of those foreclosures are also the people who signed the contracts' fault??? No you didn't because its so easy to look the other way and see and what you want to see. Could say the EXACT same thing at you. There is finger pointing in any type of environment. I just choose to do it towards the politicians that beg for money from the government to build foreign factorys in some states yet blame the big 3 for their own demise and wont loan them anything.

p.s. In no way do I want the big 3 to go down, as I give them all my business... but you can't stop a train wreck by hitting the brakes in the last 10 feet

I agree on this one. The train wreck was started with the finanical firms and Freddie and Fannie being completely retarded with their decisions and handling of money and mortages.

If GM goes under.... it will cause millions of job losses.... hell.... even Toyota fears it may hurt them more than it would help.

then let toyota bail them out ... UAW took advantage of the company, upper management failed.... it's a PRIVATE SECTOR BUSINESS!

Guess what... you make stupid decisions ... gotta learn to live with them

And the UAW needs a wakeup call... both management and the line worker making ridiculous money to do an unskilled job


GM especially is just too screwed up... they're going to need more money from the government ... how is it they sold more cars than toyota yet had huge losses in profits? UAW and poor management

But why should I buy an over priced car that has a horrible track record?
So to end this, please don't infer that I am any less of an American because I don't think I should have to buy a car (or anything for that matter) from a failing comany with a horrible business plan, who has done nothing about it.1) That's PURELY a matter of subjectivity and opinion, I do not believe you'd be buying an overpriced or inferior product with a horrible track record.
2) Even if it were a 'lesser' product (it's not), some of those veterans you speak of have SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES in some cases for our freedom/way of life...and yet you can't step up and buy a mere $25k car to try and contribute a little? :huh: Is that really too much to ask?
As a good American you still support your military and country even if you might disagree with some of your government's decisions or "business plans" because it's FOR THE GREATER GOOD, so why is this so much different?




Where was yoru comptuer made? Your TV? Your Shoes? Your cell phone?My computer was $350.00, my TV was $500.00, my shoes were $65.00 and my cell phone was actually free with the plan I have.
My GM/Chevrolet Corvette was $49,000.00.
Toyota Camry's are $26, 000.00+ and a BMW 3 series is $40,000.00+, etc. etc.




So to end this, please don't infer that I am any less of an American because I don't think I should have to buy a car (or anything for that matter) from a failing comany with a horrible business plan, who has done nothing about it.So wait, you buy a Toyota and I buy a GM or Ford...am I now any less of an American for doing so? :confused:

And I sure hope you (or anyone else) are not relying on Toyota to take up the slack in all of this (be it your personal business or the U.S. auto industry) because it ain't gonna happen.

Even President Bush has stated that the purpose of bailouts are to save companies that are simply so large that their failure would be a disaster.

"Too BIG to FAIL"


Even if we wind up GIVING GM $100B.... it will be better than the price we all would pay as the result of a depression.

The cost of failure is truly greater than the cost of a bailout!!!!!!!!!!! :usa:

I never made any statement claiming anyones patriotism based on their purchases. I was questioning your statement about people who don't buy American

"2) Even if it were a 'lesser' product (it's not), some of those veterans you speak of have SACRIFICED THEIR LIVES in some cases for our freedom/way of life...and yet you can't step up and buy a mere $25k car to try and contribute a little? Is that really too much to ask?
As a good American you still support your military and country even if you might disagree with some of your government's decisions or "business plans" because it's FOR THE GREATER GOOD, so why is this so much different?

My taxes contribute every day to those vets and my donations do as well. Me buying an American car has no direct effect on them. My buying a forgien car does directly impact the big 3, and makes them realize they are behind the 8 ball, they can either step up or step out.

I know consumer reports are looked down upon here on this site for some reason, but read any article from them, or any other magazine that talks about quality, even top gear has said on their shows that American cars are far less then their European, and Asian counter parts.

By all means though pay 25K for a car it is your choice. I'll pay my 25K for a honda toyota thats my choice.

That's the joy of being an American I don't have to do what everyone else said or does.


Also I didn't ask you how much your TV, Computer, cell phone costed, I asked where were they made.

those numbers are outrageously inflated. You are unbelievable if you think the automotive market is what's holding up are economy and if they go under the country goes into a depression. The automakers have been in the sh*t can for awhile now and this isn't going to stop it. Business is survival of the fittest and if you guys think that filing for bankruptcy protection is the end of a business, you don't know what your talking about.

You obviously needed to read what I said about no one should have gotten the bailout money. Secondly, you have no idea what your talking about. Those banks with a "bad business plan" were forced to loan to people who couldn't pay them back. Its called the Community Reinvestment Act, started by Carter and was sent snowballing under Clinton. The companies were forced to lend to them!!!! Then freddie and fannie guaranteed those loans so everyone thought they were kosher. The executives under freddie and fannie (which are both 1/2 govt owned..... do we see a trend here???????) were given bonuses based on the number of loans they backed, not based on if those loans were legitimate. Thus the executives made millions while they backed flawed/worthless paper causing a SUB PRIME housing crisis. Sub prime means these loans were likely to default... read that slowly so you understand it. Not to mention all the people who were buying houses they couldn't afford. (like buying a 250k house and not putting any money down)

You haven't got the slightest clue on the economic conditions right now and you are doing the typical finger pointing. Its BIG BAD businesses that are at fault, did you ever think that any of those foreclosures are also the people who signed the contracts' fault??? No you didn't because its so easy to look the other way and see and what you want to see.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. This bailout money won't solve any of the big 3's problems and NOBODY should be getting bailed-out. The problems are with their management and the UAW, neither of which is going away. And do you actually think the govt has this money? No they don't, they just print more off because of the ridiculous debt were in, which further hurts all of us because the dollar will keep falling with less buying power.

to quote reagan "government isn't the solution to our problem, government is the problem." There should NEVER be ownership of private companies by our government, our founding fathers are turning in their graves. This isn't capitalism and it will hurt this country. Do we have a free market anymore if we allow companies to NOT FAIL? makes no sense



I doubt seriously that those numbers are overinflated..... It the cumulative loss of all jobs based upon failure.

Government maybe should not have to be the solution but the government is also what caused this problem with the housing bubble caused by the Clintion administration. In the end... it is the businesses that ARE at fault....The loans you refer to should have NEVER been made to the people that received them..... and it is now those businesses that are being nailed with the failure.... I know.... we (tax payers) are due to the bailouts.

Really don't matter WHOM you want to blame..... If the economy goes into a depression it will COST trillions and take YEARS to recover. A depression will COST a LOT more than the price of the bailouts.

AMEN To Clinton starting this shit show. Sub Prime lending? Really? Really Bill Really?

Thank god your Bitch didn't get in, we'll really be up the "up the assembly line with out a tire"

Get it? Get it??

So if you were going to give a buddy $2000 but KNEW he couldnt give it back you would still do it. Oh, wait, you're going to be forced to give them money. Im sorry that is BS. Nobody has to loan ANYBODY money if they arent capable of paying it back. I know exactly what sub prime housing loans are. Maybe you need to get your head out of the clouds and stop trying to educate everybody and make them think your opinion is right.

Could say the EXACT same thing at you. There is finger pointing in any type of environment. I just choose to do it towards the politicians that beg for money from the government to build foreign factorys in some states yet blame the big 3 for their own demise and wont loan them anything.



I agree on this one. The train wreck was started with the finanical firms and Freddie and Fannie being completely retarded with their decisions and handling of money and mortages.


So GM is my buddy now?? and I owe them gratitude and benefit of a loan from me? My buddy, sure I'd give him some money. A corporate business that had a flawed business plan? F*** NO! there is no comparison there at all, ridiculously dumb analogy.

As for the credit dilemma, you have no idea what your talking about. Govt tells businesses to loan peole who are likely to default and they will back the loans. Then, all these people default and now the govt doesn't have the means to back the loans so fannie and freddie go under (this is in a nut shell, to say the least). Along with that you have stupid companies trying to take advantage of consumers, and stupid consumers who somehow think they can buy a house with no money down and is way out of their budget. Now, I have to pay for it, and now I am saying I don't support the bail out of any business because that is not how capitalism works.

Your right, this is my opinion but your the dumbass who doesn't understand how the credit problem started: it started with government, and I am telling you, as history shows: Government is not the solution! This is the USA, we are supposed to have a private sector for all business. If we start making it where companies can't fail, we are headed down a long, long difficult road.

I doubt seriously that those numbers are overinflated..... It the cumulative loss of all jobs based upon failure.

Government maybe should not have to be the solution but the government is also what caused this problem with the housing bubble caused by the Clintion administration. In the end... it is the businesses that ARE at fault....The loans you refer to should have NEVER been made to the people that received them..... and it is now those businesses that are being nailed with the failure.... I know.... we (tax payers) are due to the bailouts.

Really don't matter WHOM you want to blame..... If the economy goes into a depression it will COST trillions and take YEARS to recover. A depression will COST a LOT more than the price of the bailouts.


I agree with you till the last paragraph. We keep spending money that we don't have, sometime in my future that is going to come back and bite me in the ass. The spending of debt and the idea of "well we owe money to ourselves so the national debt isn't really debt" is killing the value of the dollar. We can spend more and more and try to stay away from recession/depression, but eventually it will lead to rapid, out-of-control inflation.

My taxes contribute every day to those vets and my donations do as well. Me buying an American car has no direct effect on them. My buying a forgien car does directly impact the big 3, and makes them realize they are behind the 8 ball, they can either step up or step out.They DID step up...Malibu, CTS, Corvette, Silverado/Sierra, Solstice/Sky, Lucerne, Impala, (and Ford with the Fusion/Milan, MKZ, new Focus, F-150) etc. etc.
All that excellent product and yet so many (obviously biased and uneducated) consumers still chose to go elsewhere.
They (and their grandchildren) will pay dearly for that decision someday.



By all means though pay 25K for a car it is your choice. I'll pay my 25K for a honda toyota thats my choice.Once again, you and your offspring might one day pay a HUGE price for those choices. Then again you might not.
Fortunately I don't have kids so I sure do hope for the sake of your's (and other's) that I'm wrong. :nono:
At least my conscience is clear.



That's the joy of being an American I don't have to do what everyone else said or does.I agree, I too truly do love that aspect of being an American as well but it certainly doesn't guarantee that the choices we make are the right ones though.
Of course the wrong choices made today could in fact lead to having NO choices left at all tomorrow.



Also I didn't ask you how much your TV, Computer, cell phone costed, I asked where were they made.True, you didn't ask that, but I don't see how the $20.00 I'm sending to Taiwan has even remotely the same significance as the $50,000.00 I'm sending to Bowling Green KY and an AMERICAN corporation. :confused:
Even if you're looking at the volume of the smaller items, we're still talking about A LOT of $25k - $80k vehicles here as well.

...can't be reasonable with the unreasonable.

...can't be reasonable with the unreasonable.Nice dismissive and smug response. :eyes: Quite bold of you to believe that only your opinion is correct here because that's all it is (this goes for my statements as well of course), an opinion.
One of us may be right or wrong here and/or perhaps neither one of us is but all I ask is for you to please remember, for many years to come, the words I've written above, as irrational or illogical as they may sound to your sharp and keen intellect.

I truly hope that I'm wrong about the potentially disastrous results/fallout of so many American citizens purchasing only import nameplate vehicles.
Time will tell (or has it already been told?).

I don't agree with federal welfare...corporate or personal. Thanks to GM's lobbying, I won't be buying a new Camaro SS.

I don't agree with federal welfare...corporate or personal.Neither do I but...
just how comfortable are you with hungry homeless people, maybe even some being relatives of yours, sleeping on your front lawn and begging you for food?




Thanks to GM's lobbying, I won't be buying a new Camaro SS.Yeah, that's the spirit, don't bother supporting an American icon (an American institution even) purely out of principle or spite, :eyes: way to be a team player dude. :nono:
That's ok, someone like yourself would be happier in an Accord anyway. :lol:

The purpose of the bailouts is NOT to save any individual company.... but to save the economy from a depression.

Sure.... all the spending may eventually lead to inflation.... but a depression will be worse than the inflation.

In the coming months.... the incoming Obama administration will spend up to a $1 Trillion dollars on programs that should worry us much more than the money spent on an auto bailout. :disgust:

Spending is the reason we are where we are now. Bailouts will only exacerbate the problem.

Price levels have been soaring for years due to lending and trying to cover the costs of lending on what we don't have. We can't live like this any longer.

Spending is the reason we are where we are now. Bailouts will only exacerbate the problem.

Price levels have been soaring for years due to lending and trying to cover the costs of lending on what we don't have. We can't live like this any longer.You may very well be right...and if you are then the future appears to be quite dark no matter which way this all goes. I believe another Great Depression is extremely possible (probable?) and it could make the last one look almost like fun by comparison.
This is very bad.

The cost of an Auto bailout will pale in comparison to the trillions lost in a depression.

Neither do I but...
just how comfortable are you with hungry homeless people, maybe even some being relatives of yours, sleeping on your front lawn and begging you for food?
Not very comfortable. That's why I oppose welfare.




Yeah, that's the spirit, don't bother supporting an American icon (an American institution even) purely out of principle or spite, :eyes: way to be a team player dude. :nono:
That's ok, someone like yourself would be happier in an Accord anyway. :lol:
Principle would have kept the country out of this mess. I don't drop mine to join teams that want to steal my money.

Why would I be happier in an Accord? I guess my 4-year involvement in FSAE and dropping a V8 into a sports car is very typical of the common Accord owner?

Not very comfortable. That's why I oppose welfare.Then what do you suppose should or will happen to all of those that will lose their sources of income and employment (with likely no other sources available once it's gone) after the Big 3 close their doors?
It's not just the people who bolt the vehicles together ya know...it's the guy who stamps the brass threaded fittings for the intake manifold in Pittsburgh.
It the woman at the paper mill in Seattle that makes the boxes that the waterpumps get shipped in.
It's the plastics manufacturer in Maryland that molds the side marker lenses for trucks.
And of course the boxmaker that supplies the boxes to the plastics manufacturer.
And the printer who puts the logos on the boxes.
And company that manufactures the machines that make the molds and printing equipment.
And the trucking company that picks up and delivers to ALL of these locations.
And the diner up the block from these locations where these people (used to) eat their breakfast/lunch.
And the food/provisions suppliers and delivery drivers to that diner.
And so on.
All gone or at least severely reduced in capacity output. Game over.
Whether you or I believe in welfare or not, something is going to have to be done about the now millions of people suddenly without food, shelter, heat, shoes etc after you've so boldly denied their employers at least the fighting chance to stay in business.
Oh well, not your problem I guess...or is it?




Principle would have kept the country out of this mess.Not likely.




Why would I be happier in an Accord?I don't know.
Maybe it's because of the same silly reason why you'd suddenly decided that you no longer wanted a Camaro SS?:huh:

Then what do you suppose should or will happen to all of those that will lose their sources of income and employment (with likely no other sources available once it's gone) after the Big 3 close their doors?
It's not just the people who bolt the vehicles together ya know...it's the guy who stamps the brass threaded fittings for the intake manifold in Pittsburgh.
It the woman at the paper mill in Seattle that makes the boxes that the waterpumps get shipped in.
It's the plastics manufacturer in Maryland that molds the side marker lenses for trucks.
And of course the boxmaker that supplies the boxes to the plastics manufacturer.
And the printer who puts the logos on the boxes.
And company that manufactures the machines that make the molds and printing equipment.
And the trucking company that picks up and delivers to ALL of these locations.
And the diner up the block from these locations where these people (used to) eat their breakfast/lunch.
And the food/provisions suppliers and delivery drivers to that diner.
And so on.
All gone or at least severely reduced in capacity output. Game over.
Whether you or I believe in welfare or not, something is going to have to be done about the now millions of people suddenly without food, shelter, heat, shoes etc after you've so boldly denied their employers at least the fighting chance to stay in business.
Oh well, not your problem I guess...or is it?
It isn't my problem. Sorry.

It isn't my problem. Sorry.Not to sound too bleeding heart liberal or anything but, that's just a little cold don't ya think?
Some of us at least care a little bit about the future of this great nation and it's citizens.

Not to sound too bleeding heart liberal or anything but, that's just a little cold don't ya think?
Some of us at least care a little bit about the future of this great nation and it's citizens.
You bleeding heart liberal commie bastard! How dare you care about another human being!

you bleeding heart liberal commie bastard! How dare you care about another human being! :d ;)

Hey guys I think I spent to much this year on christmas, can you all be good Americans and send me some cash to pay off my credit cards and my mortage? I mean, If I become poor from my bad fianacial decisions it will affect you more then if you don't. I mean just think of the medical insurance rates that will go up because more then likely I'll get sick and need to go to the hospital that I can't pay for, I'll need food and clothing that I can't pay for so I'll be in a shelter that needs money. I"m going to have to drp my car isurance and more then liklely I'll wreck and your rates will go up. I'll probably do something stupid and get aressted so you'll have to pay for the jail and all that jazz, so it's just easier and simpler to pay me now then pay it later.

Everyone else please post up your address if you would like a hand out from these fine up standing Americans who think bad desicions are ok.

The purpose of the bailouts is NOT to save any individual company.... but to save the economy from a depression.

Sure.... all the spending may eventually lead to inflation.... but a depression will be worse than the inflation.

In the coming months.... the incoming Obama administration will spend up to a $1 Trillion dollars on programs that should worry us much more than the money spent on an auto bailout. :disgust:

this is the attitude that has gotten us to this point. Everyone thinks spending will save everything... well what if they money you spend isn't worth anything? Not only is that a depression, but do you realize how hard it is to come back from a currency that holds no value??

What happens when gas prices go back over $3.00? when the price per barrel of oil goes over $100 again? It will happen again, and the dollar will drop like a rock. You can try and do all the spending / printing of more money that you want, but it won't do sh*t. All it will do is amplify the damage.

That last sentence is the truth, and that's sort of what I'm saying. We have got to stop spending on all this crap... Its like the hoover/fdr tactics that were proven ineffective

Hey guys I think I spent to much this year on christmas, can you all be good Americans and send me some cash to pay off my credit cards and my mortage? I mean, If I become poor from my bad fianacial decisions it will affect you more then if you don't. I mean just think of the medical insurance rates that will go up because more then likely I'll get sick and need to go to the hospital that I can't pay for, I'll need food and clothing that I can't pay for so I'll be in a shelter that needs money. I"m going to have to drp my car isurance and more then liklely I'll wreck and your rates will go up. I'll probably do something stupid and get aressted so you'll have to pay for the jail and all that jazz, so it's just easier and simpler to pay me now then pay it later.

Everyone else please post up your address if you would like a hand out from these fine up standing Americans who think bad desicions are ok.

No problem.

Just post your name, address, SS#, credit card numbers, and we will take care of that for ya ;)

Hey guys I think I spent to much this year on christmas, can you all be good Americans and send me some cash to pay off my credit cards and my mortage? I mean, If I become poor from my bad fianacial decisions it will affect you more then if you don't. I mean just think of the medical insurance rates that will go up because more then likely I'll get sick and need to go to the hospital that I can't pay for, I'll need food and clothing that I can't pay for so I'll be in a shelter that needs money. I"m going to have to drp my car isurance and more then liklely I'll wreck and your rates will go up. I'll probably do something stupid and get aressted so you'll have to pay for the jail and all that jazz, so it's just easier and simpler to pay me now then pay it later.

Everyone else please post up your address if you would like a hand out from these fine up standing Americans who think bad desicions are ok.While quite sarcastic and not exactly a perfect analogy (no offense but you do not employ, be it directly or indirectly, MILLIONS of taxpayers), I do see and even agree with most of your point here. :)

As I'd said earlier, this is all very bad, we're almost all essentially screwed either way so fasten your seatbelts it's going to be a bumpy ride. :nono:

As I'd said earlier, this is all very bad, we're almost all essentially screwed either way so fasten your seatbelts it's going to be a bumpy ride. :nono:

uhm... can you just tell me when the ride is over?...lol :bang:

Not to sound too bleeding heart liberal or anything but, that's just a little cold don't ya think?
Some of us at least care a little bit about the future of this great nation and it's citizens.

Caring doesn't make one a liberal. However, demanding money to be extorted by force for redistribution does.

How do I not care? Just because I can separate my emotions from what I believe is right does not mean I don't care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be complaining. Like I said in an earlier post, the repercussions are unfortunate and make me upset but it is not and never was my responsibility to pay for the problems of any company.

^^^ well said LS1FC3