Automotive News, Media & Press - Automaker's get Bailed out today by Pres. Bush !!

President Bush announced today 13.4 Billion to US Automaker's to allow them to restructure with another 4 billion available in January. Congress couldn't pass it so President Bush used the Executive Branch to push it through. Way to go Mr, President !

:nono: This is rediculous. Everyone knows the Big 3 will not be able to meet those contentions. They spend all that money, when they can't show they will be profitable in 3 months time they will owe even more money. The UAW will not make anymore concessions on labor rate. This is a disaster.

The UAW is a huge cause of the problem. I have nothing against, unions. BUT they get and take too much ans it has cost the big 3 dearly.

:nono: This is rediculous. Everyone knows the Big 3 will not be able to meet those contentions. They spend all that money, when they can't show they will be profitable in 3 months time they will owe even more money. The UAW will not make anymore concessions on labor rate. This is a disaster.

The labor rate difference is only ~$4 an hour between union and non union jobs. The REAL disaster is the life long health care and pensions. Those will force the big threee into bankruptcy regardless of whatever "loans" they receive.

fire them all and hire the scabs

:nono: This is rediculous. Everyone knows the Big 3 will not be able to meet those contentions. They spend all that money, when they can't show they will be profitable in 3 months time they will owe even more money. The UAW will not make anymore concessions on labor rate. This is a disaster.

Sounds like the UAW will not have a choice but to accept wage concessions.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/19/news/companies/auto_crisis/index.htm?postversion=2008121909

The labor rate difference is only ~$4 an hour between union and non union jobs. The REAL disaster is the life long health care and pensions. Those will force the big threee into bankruptcy regardless of whatever "loans" they receive.

That $4 difference is BS. Maybe in wage rates, but not in total cost per hour of an employee. Union benefits are steep to a company, which have to be passed on to the consumer, which makes it hard for the Big 3 to be competitive with their pricing.

Even a $4.00 an hour difference is A LOT. Multiply that by 40 hours and then again by a few hundred thousand employees EVERY year.
It's a big gap either way.


As for the bridge loan and such...I wish none of this was ever necessary, I wish the credit (and fuel price) BS never happened and I really wish that more North Americans simply bought the vehicles built by their fellow citizens just like they (predominantly) do in Japan, Germany, Italy, Korea etc. etc.

I sure hope this hits home with car buyers everywhere as well as the employees of the big 3. I for one would rather have a job and take a pay cut that be without a job and compete with all my former co workers to find a job. I realy dont want to see them go under otherwise we have no hope of seeing this job crisis or economical problems get fixed anytime soon.

I sure hope this hits home with car buyers everywhere as well as the employees of the big 3. I for one would rather have a job and take a pay cut that be without a job and compete with all my former co workers to find a job. I realy dont want to see them go under otherwise we have no hope of seeing this job crisis or economical problems get fixed anytime soon.:werd:x 100

i say they restructure everything

Glad to see the big 3 will be around at least for a few more months. This might force them to seriously restructure including the stupid union. If not well then a better structured chapter 11 might be the only option left and that should for sure break the unions back.
The companies have enough problems without having these health and pension plans dragging them down forever. They have to be given up or can't see anyway out. People no matter how patriotic are not going to pay a lot more for these vehicles. A bit more possibly if they build vehicles that people want and keep quality up and close to the imports.

I planned on new truck possibly next year. It never entered my mind to buy a toyota or honda or nissan truck. I was planning to buy a 09 hemi 4 by 4 crew cab. I bought a 2008 Pontiac montana van since they are still sold in Canada where I live. I would have likely bought a Dodge Van if didn't get the Montana and gm deleted all their vans in the US I hear a few years back. Not sure why we have lots and lots of them being sold up here..all makes but see plenty of the gm and dodge vans here .

Sure some people wanted SUV and Crossovers. But of course everytime fuel goes way up people stop buying the big heavy gas hoggin suvs and big trucks and big vehicles.
I do think GM and Dodge and Ford have to get their act together.A merger of GM /Dodge might be a good thing and get their marketing geared to patriotism and all that type of thing. Emphasis their history ,some of the products that have made them great like the old muscle cars that give the companies character. The Domestics are good at building things like modern musclecars. The ford mustang, Dodge challenger ,gm camaro give some excitement to the lines. The corvette is an icon.the viper a bit less. Fords mustang is a beloved vehicle. Not everyone wants to buy some high mileage 4 door little cookie cutter sedan. At least i hope not everyone wants to buy them.
There are really only a few import especially import Japanese cars that even slightly interest me and not really that much..the 370z or whatever its called is ok looking and reasonable power. Mazda has zip for nice sports cars. Honda hasn't made any really nice sports car since the NSX. Toyota has zip since its twin turbo supra back in the mid 90s.
The Japanese are good at making quailty sedans and Hondas are not terrible looking and appeal to a lot of people talking the two door hondas.
Germany has some nice stuff that interests me but most of the nice stuff is too expensive for my salary.
Italian stuff is awesome but also impractical and way too much money for me.
I have almost always bought domestic. Could work on it, could get parts for them even 30 years later. They were decently reliable but not always the best quality in terms of paint, body,little stuff. But always thought gm made good engines, trannies and rear ends well except for the fourth gen glass f body rear ends !

Guess see what happens in next year or two. Still hoping to buy a corvette for my next car and a dodge ram hemi for my next truck. And possibly a domestic for my next van if they are still around making them.

Don't care about suvs. Do care a bit about mileage in future vehicles especially the daily drivers like van or truck. Not really into future camaros or firebirds and realize the internal combustion engine won't likely be around forever at least not in the form we know today.

But all I can say it that union is likely to make the whole house of cards come crashing down.

Here is some info regarding the UAW and bail out
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/19/autos/auto_bailout_labor_issues/index.htm?postversion=2008121914

Here is some info regarding the UAW and bail out
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/19/autos/auto_bailout_labor_issues/index.htm?postversion=2008121914


toyota pays the same. interesting. interesting again the most efficent plants are union plants.

I wish you would adjust your topic, GM & Chysler got the bail out Ford is doing better.

What good is it going to do bailing out the auto makers when regular people arent buying cars anyways? Places around here all have months and months of overstocked 08 cars, cant even make room for the 09's

What good is it going to do bailing out the auto makers when regular people arent buying cars anyways? Places around here all have months and months of overstocked 08 cars, cant even make room for the 09's

And the time to clearance the '09s is right around the corner...

Well thats better giving AIG more money. AIG already doubled their managers sarlaries with " retention" bonuses. And God knows they don't need another vacation.

How about that? Nobody says nothing about, " Hey guys, I know you f-ked the economy, ran AIG into the ground. But the goverment just gave us $185,000,000,000.00, so we're going to give all of you that already make $100k-$1 million raise of $100k to $4 million more a year."
AIG's mis-management makes the Big 3's look like a small typographical error.
All you Haters out there are short sighted as to what the Big 3 mean to this Country, and what it has meant.

It was embarassing how Congress shit all over the Big 3 CEOs, and asked Blue collar workers to sacrifice wages and benefits, while turning around and handing AIG a blank check so they could reward their managers for screwing up. Lord knows how much they deserved it.
While I personally believe the Unions are greedy and CEO's compensation should much more realistic. I am offended that Congress would ask for instant and substantial wage and benefit cuts for average Blue collar workers and be absolutely mute about AIG bonuses and trips for upper managment.
Oh and BTW I bet AIG flies on private jets.
P.S I'm glad Ford told the goverment where to stick it last week.

I wish you would adjust your topic, GM & Chysler got the bail out Ford is doing better.

I've missed something. Ford's CEO was at the Senate hearings, right? So they went there and asked for $$$ and didn't get it? Or did they not ask for $$$ from the government?

I've missed something. Ford's CEO was at the Senate hearings, right? So they went there and asked for $$$ and didn't get it? Or did they not ask for $$$ from the government?

Ford went in front of the Senate along with the others, in most part to ensure a line of credit so they could borrow if they needed to. But Ford Capped up last year so they have enough money to make it through the next year. They didn't need the short term loan that was offered by the White House nor did they want to jump through all the hoops to get it.

toyota pays the same. interesting. interesting again the most efficent plants are union plants.

quit defending the UAW, toyota does not pay same. Show me where Toyota pays the same.... And toyota sharing profit with its workers doesn't count, I'm talking wages. You don't seem to understand that the UAW is raping the big 3 with insane wages/pensions/health care.

$73 per hour is the cost for the big 3, toyota is $45 per hour.

Its unskilled labor and you can't justify paying people that much for what they do, and yes I am generalizing.

quit defending the UAW, toyota does not pay same. Show me where Toyota pays the same.... And toyota sharing profit with its workers doesn't count, I'm talking wages. You don't seem to understand that the UAW is raping the big 3 with insane wages/pensions/health care.


Most people like to ignore the hidden costs of a union employee - salary is much quicker to look at. Pensions and health benefits, on top of all the other small union payouts (apprenticeship funds, etc.) are the major difference here. That and I doubt Toyota continues to pay employees that have been laid off.

quit defending the UAW, toyota does not pay same. Show me where Toyota pays the same.... And toyota sharing profit with its workers doesn't count, I'm talking wages. You don't seem to understand that the UAW is raping the big 3 with insane wages/pensions/health care.

$73 per hour is the cost for the big 3, toyota is $45 per hour.

Its unskilled labor and you can't justify paying people that much for what they do, and yes I am generalizing.

you cant read or youre in denial. but its ok keep blaming the UAW for the big threes incompetency.

Most people like to ignore the hidden costs of a union employee - salary is much quicker to look at. Pensions and health benefits, on top of all the other small union payouts (apprenticeship funds, etc.) are the major difference here. That and I doubt Toyota continues to pay employees that have been laid off.



once again i never argued total cost.


if you read that link youll see toyota has something similar to job banks.

Billions of your money pissed away to the UAW and the worst managed companies in the country.

Ford declined a bailout right now as they secured a loan prior the economy taking a dump, but they face the same problems as GM and Chrysler.

once again i never argued total cost.


if you read that link youll see toyota has something similar to job banks.

What Toyota does for its workers is actually very similar to the jobs bank, but without the sub-pay period. Toyota has a strong "no layoff" policy, so workers stay on the company payroll at full wages while they are assigned to either training programs or other jobs within the company.

Yup, job banks. Except completely different. They don't layoff employees, they re-assign them within the company (give them a different job). If they do have to layoff, they do not do sub-pay, as it is called. So basically, if Toyota needs to layoff, they find something else for that employee to do within the company. If GM has to layoff, they send the employee home and pay them to hold the couch down.

Yup, job banks. Except completely different. They don't layoff employees, they re-assign them within the company (give them a different job). If they do have to layoff, they do not do sub-pay, as it is called. So basically, if Toyota needs to layoff, they find something else for that employee to do within the company. If GM has to layoff, they send the employee home and pay them to hold the couch down.


not entirely. they have to take a job if its within 50 miles of where they were laid off. some also are retrained and given other assigments. not all but some.

i didnt say identical. i said similar.

not entirely. they have to take a job if its within 50 miles of where they were laid off. some also are retrained and given other assigments. not all but some.

i didnt say identical. i said similar.

and its nowhere near as ridiculously flawed like the big 3's.

Bottom line: Toyota pays less than the big 3 PROVE ME WRONG

its not similar or the "the same" as you said, they pay less... they pay what the market value's their job skill should be paid, not what some union that strong-arms the big 3. YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT as proven in 3 other threads

but keep :swing: the UAW... there are two major problems with the big 3: 50% UAW and 50% executive decisions, quit denying it and please tell me this: Why am I in denial about the UAW?? no one else on this board thinks so, but you... so please explain

toyota pays the same. interesting. interesting again the most efficent plants are union plants.

please elaborate?

please elaborate?


if you cant read the link i cant help you.


but please explain to me how wagoners incompetence, falling sales, poor quality for decades, crappy dealers are the UAWs fault? mngt. agreed to these contracts so get over it.

the uaw HAS AND IS making concessions.

if you cant read the link i cant help you.


but please explain to me how wagoners incompetence, falling sales, poor quality for decades, crappy dealers are the UAWs fault? mngt. agreed to these contracts so get over it.

the uaw HAS AND IS making concessions.

if wagoner or other management doesn't agree to their terms the UAW puts on its class A demonstration of their strength and calls for a strike, which costs the company millions.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-on-total-hourly-labor-costs-gm-vs.html

Bottom Line: Even with the new contract, there will still be about a $14 per hour pay gap in total labor costs between GM ($62) and Toyota ($48), and more than a 29% total labor cost premium for UAW workers compared to their nonunion counterparts at Toyota.

Is it Wagoner's fault too that their costs are so high that when they have the number 2 best selling vehicle in the US that they still can't turn a profit? I said that half of this is executive fault and half is union, you can't seem to fathom that the union is to blame.

and since you danced around the fact that toyota's job bank is nothing like the UAW's defend this...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/11/21/automakers-ask-bailout-paying-workers-sit/

or how about this:

From thetruthaboutcars.com (not rock solid but hes a reporter on the industry so he at lest has the general idea)

Quote:At Toyota’s Tundra plant in San Antonio, unskilled workers earn about $15 per hour, increasing to about $21 per hour after three years. Workers at Toyota’s new Tupelo, Mississippi plant will start at around $12 per hour, increasing to some $20 per hour after three years. If you include benefits (not an apples to apples comparison but there you go), the average Big 2.8 worker earns roughly $73 per hour.


Wall Street Journal, 24 May 2006:

In San Antonio, Toyota will use non-union labor and will start its 1,600 hourly workers at $15.50 to $20.33 per hour, which will grow after three years to $21 to $25. Harbour Consulting President Ron Harbour estimates Toyota’s total hourly U.S. labor costs, with benefits, at about $35 an hour — less than half of GM’s rates.

forums.motortrend.com, 14 May 2007:

But Toyota’s newly opened Tundra plant in San Antonio started its unskilled hourly workers at about $15.50 last year. After three years, the rates will increase to about $21 an hour.


notice how they get raises?? that means they have to keep doing good work to get raises - unlike their counterparts at the UAW


Your clueless, you have no idea what your talking about and the more you talk the more of a moron I realize you are

being a tech for 14 years now i hope the big 3 go under, there is no reason they need to make that much per hour to put a clean car together and half of it is done by robots. hell i would love to make that much per hour with all of the stuff i have to know having to fix these cars when they come in techs like me should be making that much.

The First thing that needs to happened is to cut imports......if its not made here Tax the shit out of it, Thats what most country's do to our products

2nd the liberal media needs to start reporting news....not biased oppinons
the thought that american cars are infferior in any way is retarded, i had a 1995 gmc yukon that raked up 350k miles when i sold it...stock motor stock trany stock rear....and it stayed quiet inside for the most part for a 95"

also had a 1995 mustang that i drove the shit out of...had full bolt on's and M/t drag radials launched it prolly 2k times only things that broke was a rear sway bar and a junk t5 tranz

the big three dont need a bail out....they need a country to back them,with sales and foriegn affaires

and the U.A.W. is a mojor problem and they know it.....im a union roofer so im very pro union, but i dont get paid when im laid off? why the hell should they?
let alone 90% of there working pay?

my buddy is a U.a.w. assembler and he even tells me the stupid shit that happend's

ppl get cought sleepin on the job get fired and the next day are back sleepin on the job....

ppl get cought geting High and guess what? yup get there job back....

and the biggest problem....Work for 2 hours get paid for 10....
its discusting that the american ppl are so stupid they cant see past today....
you rape and pillalage any thing long enough it will fall....
the Auto industry and this country are in the same boat

another buddy of mine is a mexican american, born here and busted his ass to start his own trucking company....he'll be the first one to tell you about how his cousin's that are illegal work long enough to get unemployment....its shit like that, that is gana crush this country.....iv got no problem with foreigners coming here and working hard to get what they want, but when they come here and dont have to work to get what they want thats just plain dumb on our part as the populas of this country....
i belive in the next 50 years we will be lookin at a civil war here...while the rest of the world fights WWIII

lol any way how about that 2010 camaro? :D

being a tech for 14 years now i hope the big 3 go underTo me, when I hear someone say something (quite stupid) like that it's as if you just stated that you hope the entire nation gets brutally attacked or something.
You wouldn't really want something like to happen would you?

...the problem is not uaw hourly cost's its the strangle hold they put on companys so they cant cut the fat from there work force....in my oppinon if you dont work...YOU DONT WORK!!! lol im union so i see alot of dumb ppl the union protects....unions every where need a reform and start firing dead beats.... the gov also needs to stop the rising costs of hospitals....a big problem with health care is illiegals geting free health care by going to the hospital and not being turned away....IF YOU ARE NOT A LEGAL CITEZEN YOU GET NOTHING....plain and simple ppl seem to think our constitution was free and its there right to give it away....IT GARANTEE'S NOTHING TO ANY ONE EXCEPT U.S. CITEZENS

drop health care costs and it would help companies like no bail out ever could

a big problem with health care is illiegals geting free health care by going to the hospital and not being turned away....IF YOU ARE NOT A LEGAL CITEZEN YOU GET NOTHING....plain and simple ppl seem to think our constitution was free and its there right to give it away....IT GARANTEE'S NOTHING TO ANY ONE EXCEPT U.S. CITEZENSI agree with that 100%!!! :werd:

I think something the Big 3 needs to do is bring some of their overseas cars over to the US. Ford unveiled that Falcon I believe in Australia, that looks like one badass car. They've also got the focus diesel over in UK that gets over 50 MPG for the fuel conscious people.

Its good to see some union workers chiming in here and agreeing with how dumb the UAW's labor contracts are. I work for a union electrical contractor (I'm non-union), so I definitely see the benefits to the unions, but I also see how they have the ability to cripple the employers. There has to be a delicate balance. The UAW is obviously milking the Big 3 for every dime they can get.

But again, they aren't the whole issue here, just a part of the whole. Management needs to become more efficient, and they need to market their products a lot better. If I weren't a car enthusiast, I wouldn't even know that the G8 existed (let alone that it is a great car at a great price). The whole business plan needs to change, top to bottom, but anyone that thinks the UAW is not a part of that problem, they are only fooling themselves (or trying to defend their job...).

To me, when I hear someone say something (quite stupid) like that it's as if you just stated that you hope the entire nation gets brutally attacked or something.
You wouldn't really want something like to happen would you?

i would never hope for a attack on the nation what does this have to do with my comment? i am stating the amount of "money" these auto workers make per hour thats all 70+ per hour is complete bullshit! uaw is the big problem also, do the big 3 really need private jets to fly them around i mean really.

^^^ Well in the world we live in, if your company is doing GOOD and you can afford to fly in private jets then you are entitled to. However when your company is being run into the ground, they aren't making money, one would think you don't have the money to be running around in a private jet.

i would never hope for a attack on the nation what does this have to do with my comment? i am stating the amount of "money" these auto workers make per hour thats all 70+ per hour is complete bullshit!You'd mentioned that you "hope the Big 3 go under" and I took GREAT offense to that in the very same way someone would also take offense to a person saying that they hope the U.S. gets attacked, that is all.
If your gripe is with the UAW or the salaries of line workers than please focus specifically on that when making statements and not proclaim that you're actually hoping for an economic disaster that could in fact ultimately destroy this great nation. :)

You'd mentioned that you "hope the Big 3 go under" and I took GREAT offense to that in the very same way someone would also take offense to a person saying that they hope the U.S. gets attacked, that is all.
If your gripe is with the UAW or the salaries of line workers than please focus specifically on that when making statements and not proclaim that you're actually hoping for an economic disaster that could in fact ultimately destroy this great nation. :)

if the ceo's would focus on where the money is going "into there pockets and not the company" then this may not have happened. they brought this on themselves period they should have to learn the hard way.

if the ceo's would focus on where the money is going "into there pockets and not the company" then this may not have happened. they brought this on themselves period they should have to learn the hard way.I do somewhat agree with you on that...and while the CEOs did/do have other people to consider/answer to as well such as the shareholders/bondholders and such, there certainly were some bad decisions/judgement calls made over the years that helped contribute to all of this.
Unfortunately it's NOT only the CEOs that will learn the hard way or have to pay for these mistakes, we ALL will, that is why I do not believe that hoping/wishing for the entire industry to go under is a good idea.

I do somewhat agree with you on that...and while the CEOs did/do have other people to consider/answer to as well such as the shareholders/bondholders and such, there certainly were some bad decisions/judgement calls made over the years that helped contribute to all of this.
Unfortunately it's NOT only the CEOs that will learn the hard way or have to pay for these mistakes, we ALL will, that is why I do not believe that hoping/wishing for the entire industry to go under is a good idea.

Very well said. This is why this issue stirs at so many people. Obviously, I would like to see the execs of these companies get what they deserve - punishment for running these valuable companies so poorly while filling their own pockets, but having them go bankrupt is also not a viable option as it would cripple more than just our country. We all want someone to pay for this, but just like when oil prices surge, all we can do is bitch about it, then bend over.

I'm really hoping that this serves as a wake-up call to them though, and they get that business plan more streamlined. Time will tell though.

^^^ and here is the catch... there aren't executives who can steer the big three in a new direction with new management. Why? because there are none to be found right now. Expert execs with a great understanding of the automotive market are an extremely rare commodity. So the same management will have to turn things around, a complete 180 and I don't know that they are capable of that.... I hope they are, but I guess we will find out

if the big 3 go under every single person in america will feel the hit....no matter what your profession is you will feel it....attack toyota and honda where every one can see....T.V. lol but they must be very delicate focus on the fact that when you purchase a import your sending alot of u.s. capital over seas....but the gov also needs to limit imported cars....less imported cars means more domestic sales....and you can tax imported cars wich gives us another source of strong capital:usa:

this is not going to fix its self....iv bought ALOT of gm and ford stock in the last 2 months.....the american ppl need to rally and take our companys and country back before its pissed away by politicians and stupid ceo's :bigun2:

lol the funny thing is were facing an american muscle car war....maybe the camaro/mustang/chalenger will save the big 3? market a stripped down camaro for under 20 grand? that would spark the 60's all over agin :drive:

if the big 3 go under every single person in america will feel the hit....no matter what your profession is you will feel it....attack toyota and honda where every one can see....T.V. lol but they must be very delicate focus on the fact that when you purchase a import your sending alot of u.s. capital over seas....but the gov also needs to limit imported cars....less imported cars means more domestic sales....and you can tax imported cars wich gives us another source of strong capital:usa:

this is not going to fix its self....iv bought ALOT of gm and ford stock in the last 2 months.....the american ppl need to rally and take our companys and country back before its pissed away by politicians and stupid ceo's :bigun2:I'm right with ya on this one bro! :nod: :usa:

Look on the bright side,
GM stock is now worth more than a gallon of gas.
Good times are ahead. :jest:

lol the funny thing is were facing an american muscle car war....maybe the camaro/mustang/chalenger will save the big 3? market a stripped down camaro for under 20 grand? that would spark the 60's all over agin :drive:

Why does it always seem that when we finally start getting really good cars something comes along and ruins it. Last time it was the insurance Co's and opec. This pretty much is the 60's all over again. Muscle cars from the Big 3, Muscle sedans and super Vettes. All I need now is a 2door full size V-8 Convert that gets 25 mpgs.

To me, when I hear someone say something (quite stupid) like that it's as if you just stated that you hope the entire nation gets brutally attacked or something.
You wouldn't really want something like to happen would you?


You keep twisting peoples words and making them say what you think is correct. Hoping that someone or something reaps what they sews is not someone hoping for another 9/11. You are the one sounding blatantly ignorant.

I hope that GM,Chrysler,Ford,AIG,etc. ad nauseum all have to pay for their poor performance. My company would certainly get no GOVT. "loan" (WINK*) if I ran it into the ground.

The fact is without consequences the vast majority of people refuse to perform well.

If GM,AIG or whomever wish to continue conducting business in an inefficient manner then to hell with them. They can clean house and make things better or they can sink. That is capitalism at it's finest.

Don't feed me shit about 3million jobs lost or the end of the world as we know it either. The way things look to me it needs to be the end of the world as we know it. Our GOVT and almost all major corporations can't even balance their fucking checkbooks. I certainly don't want people that cannot manage this simple task in charge!

Bring on the changes! If you are not willing to care for yourself you are going to rot. If your are unable to care for yourself it is up to those with compassion and your loved ones to care for you. Not the GOVT or someone you worked for at one point.

I wholeheartedly welcome a new age of accountability and self sufficiency.

HOOOORRAY! It's another hate the UAW thread. I am a union member, IAM 751, building airplanes for Boeing so I've seen first hand all of the good and the bad that comes with a union. There's also a lot of bad information in this thread.

The primary goal of a union is and has always been to improve the conditions and lives of the workers. Granted, I think the UAW has crossed the line a bit by fighting for too much considering the type of work UAW employees do. I hand build friggin $250 million airplanes and get nowhere near the same deal in hourly compensation or layoff concessions...but I have the same deal that's killing the big three. I have a pension and lifetime health care if I retire from Boeing. The pension is no big deal as it's a fixed cost and can be figured into the hourly wage of the worker to figure total cost of labor. The healthcare issue is the killer. And I blame management and the insurance/healthcare industry for asking way the hell too much for healthcare costs. $25 advils while in the emergency room? WTF. MRIs that cost $2,500 for a 20 minute scan? An ER visit costs $500 minimum! With 750,000 current and retired employees collecting healthcare benefits (plus their families) at the current insane cost of healthcare it's no wonder the big three are going out of business. ALL of the European and Japanese automakers don't have this problem. In Japan in Europe they pay little to nothing on healthcare. For their American workforce it's not mature enough yet to have the crushing ammount of retirees collecting post retirement benefits and being non-union they are forced to accept a cheap and ineffective healthcare plan (usually a HMO like group health).

The solution is regulating the health insurance industry making them all non-profits (like Sweeden), force competition in the healthcare industry to lower costs, and/or socializing the entire industry to drive the insance cost of healthcare down. That would save more than just the auto industry in America.

forums.motortrend.com, 14 May 2007:

But Toyota’s newly opened Tundra plant in San Antonio started its unskilled hourly workers at about $15.50 last year. After three years, the rates will increase to about $21 an hour.

notice how they get raises?? that means they have to keep doing good work to get raises - unlike their counterparts at the UAW

Your clueless, you have no idea what your talking about and the more you talk the more of a moron I realize you are


You're calling someone else clueless? Do you honestly think that the UAW employee can show up, not work, and get raises? I bet work at a Toyota plant looks exactly the same as work at a Chevy plant and the workers look and act like the same people. What you said is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.

You're calling someone else clueless? Do you honestly think that the UAW employee can show up, not work, and get raises? I bet work at a Toyota plant looks exactly the same as work at a Chevy plant and the workers look and act like the same people. What you said is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard.

I wish ya the best of luck debating this guy. Hes a pretty diehard righty that cares little for the truth or for people that arent neocons such as himself. Just wait once he reads this it'll be "liberal liberal liberal!!! Sean Hannity for president blah blah" lol!!! He hated unions long before he entered this discussion.

Im in total agreement of restructuring health care. It has been crippling our infastructure for 2 decades now and it needs to be dealt with to make the economy more competitive with foriegn markets. But the AMA and the RNC have long since resisted change and the Dems have sat by and only patronized it towards those who demand change rather than honestly taking it on.

This is not an issue of skilled labor vs. unskilled labor as so many union bashers have made it but rather an issue of living wages now being asked of workers to give up even after so many have been stripped of health care for themselves and their families. This is not the way to go about solving our poor economic times.

I've worked in union environments and seen some of the ridiculous situations that would never happen if a union wasn't there guaranteeing people their jobs back. How you guys can sit and defend the UAW is beyond me?

My "union bashing" is aimed specifically toward the UAW. I work with unionized labor on a daily basis (non union GC) and they do fine work and I have nothing against them, nor do I have anything against what 1970camaroRS does. Most unions are just like any other job, but the UAW is not.... They have successfully bleeded the big 3 on labor costs, $74 vs. $45 per hour of work is a HUGE difference, and I'm not even diving into the whole "job bank" thing.

The solution is regulating the health insurance industry making them all non-profits (like Sweeden), force competition in the healthcare industry to lower costs, and/or socializing the entire industry to drive the insance cost of healthcare down. That would save more than just the auto industry in America.

there is one scary flaw to this argument. Non-profit companies have drastically lower incentive to compete, after-all there non-profit. Yes, our health care is outrageously expensive... but we also have the best medical research and most advanced systems, giving us the best medical options. We don't have lines going out of the hospital for people waiting to get in an ER.


wannabess, your the one making it a political argument and I'm not going to.

This is not an issue of skilled labor vs. unskilled labor as so many union bashers have made it but rather an issue of living wages now being asked of workers to give up even after so many have been stripped of health care for themselves and their families. This is not the way to go about solving our poor economic times.

.... then please share how we go about doing that?? we keep paying UAW demands so that employees earn enough to be qualified as making "living wages?" Even though they make more than enough to live off of, these employees have great pay. And I am not railing on them, if they can use the system in their favor then do it, but it obviously didn't last forever. Of course these kind of comments are what I would expect from someone in illinois

Good ol' illinois?? lol! Spare me your Blaggobitch Illinois politics nonsense. Im not from Chicago sorry to disappoint. You hated unions long before the auto industries troubles. If you were truly interested in truth seeking then you would just accept the fact that the UAW workers ARE NOT making $70+hr like you claim. They make about $4hr less then toyota workers in reality. The number youre clinging desperatly to is a number added up by all the 315,000 UAW jobs that were lost in the last 20 years. But you wont admit that because you hate unions.

The funny part is that you acually believe the current leadership that you voted for the last 8 years really cares whether you have a fighting shot at living the American dream. Their creed is simply stated "not my problem, youre on your own" " Cant afford it? Oh well". The UAW workers now earn only $14hr with health care and many in this country lack the $1000 a month to afford health care in our "great" health care system.

I remind you that the problem with the auto industry is that people cant afford new cars. You think the way to fix it is to lower the already underpaid country so that even more cant afford it????

there is one scary flaw to this argument. Non-profit companies have drastically lower incentive to compete, after-all there non-profit. Yes, our health care is outrageously expensive... but we also have the best medical research and most advanced systems, giving us the best medical options. We don't have lines going out of the hospital for people waiting to get in an ER.

This is where I take issue with so many. I wanna see capitalism rule over socialism any day but when I comes to health care the difference between you and myself is that im a thoughtful person and youre not in this area. I would rather this country be behind the rest of the world in health care and see it available to every American rather then be light years ahead and have it be denied to 35% of us. People in Canada and Britain arent waiting in long lines. Thats more AMA nonsense fed to anyone thatll listen to their crap! And to hear people talk about profit and corporate competitiveness with cancer and so many other illnesses is just pathetic.

Good ol' illinois?? lol! Spare me your Blaggobitch Illinois politics nonsense. Im not from Chicago sorry to disappoint. You hated unions long before the auto industries troubles. If you were truly interested in truth seeking then you would just accept the fact that the UAW workers ARE NOT making $70+hr like you claim. They make about $4hr less then toyota workers in reality. The number youre clinging desperatly to is a number added up by all the 315,000 UAW jobs that were lost in the last 20 years. But you wont admit that because you hate unions.

The funny part is that you acually believe the current leadership that you voted for the last 8 years really cares whether you have a fighting shot at living the American dream. Their creed is simply stated "not my problem, youre on your own" " Cant afford it? Oh well". The UAW workers now earn only $14hr with health care and many in this country lack the $1000 a month to afford health care in our "great" health care system.

I remind you that the problem with the auto industry is that people cant afford new cars. You think the way to fix it is to lower the already underpaid country so that even more cant afford it????

no thats not where I'm getting that number, smart ass. That number comes from the total cost per work hour. They could be getting paid $29 dollars an hour but the total cost after you add in health care, pensions, etc climbs to over $70

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2162_chart1.gif

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2162.cfm
given that this source is a little biased, but the numbers aren't and I can produce many more sources if you insist, since you have shown none

you might be the biggest idiot on this board... so you know who I voted for?? Your arrogant assumptions couldn't be more wrong. If you didn't read the thread it says automaker's get bailed out today by pres. bush and if you haven't read the thread, I completely disagree with Bush. I wish he didn't bail them out. And I love how you assume I voted for him the past 8 years which isn't true either. I don't agree with most the things he's done and how you have tried to turn this into "Blame bush for everything" thread is beyond me, and then you try to associate me with him... how??

let's examine this dumb statement...

You think the way to fix it is to lower the already underpaid country so that even more cant afford it????

so companies need to pay their employee's more, thus cutting their bottom line and in this case driving them out of business? so its better for the company to pay their employees more temporarily, till they go out of business because they can't afford the increase in expenses and then everyone is screwed. Your logic is beyond flawed, you think companies have the extra cash flow right now to pay everyone whatever they want? If you haven't noticed businesses are dropping like flies and dropping a bigger burden on them is irresponsible and mindless.

This is where I take issue with so many. I wanna see capitalism rule over socialism any day but when I comes to health care the difference between you and myself is that im a thoughtful person and youre not in this area. I would rather this country be behind the rest of the world in health care and see it available to every American rather then be light years ahead and have it be denied to 35% of us. People in Canada and Britain arent waiting in long lines. Thats more AMA nonsense fed to anyone thatll listen to their crap! And to hear people talk about profit and corporate competitiveness with cancer and so many other illnesses is just pathetic.

your generalizations are ridiculous at best. Oh no! I'm not thoughtful now!

I ran into 3 canadians at a conference this past summer and we got on the topic of health care. I don't choose make assumptions on third person information like yourself, they each said that their health care isn't what ours is in the states. Maybe they were in the minority of canadians that think that, but that's what they told me and I believed them. Do we need health care reform? Hell yes, but I feel the socialistic route isn't the best solution.

your generalizations are ridiculous at best. Oh no! I'm not thoughtful now!

I ran into 3 canadians at a conference this past summer and we got on the topic of health care. I don't choose make assumptions on third person information like yourself, they each said that their health care isn't what ours is in the states. Maybe they were in the minority of canadians that think that, but that's what they told me and I believed them. Do we need health care reform? Hell yes, but I feel the socialistic route isn't the best solution.

Oh I get it. When facts like Frances Universal Health care is statisticly better then ours(the best in the world acually) you just ask 3 Canadians what they think and then base your assumption off of that because you are opposed to universal health care in general and therefore wont here of a fact based information. But when it comes to labor costs we must used pie charts and numbers data to make your point and Im just ignorant for having a view point that goes against your bar graph. :eyes: Great double standard.

I still fail to catch how tax payer paid coverage differs any way from privatized. The government is not diagnosing citizens illnesses theyre incharge of financing coverage. Who cares who pays for it so long as every citizen has it reguardless of class. Eitherway your side has lost and universal health care will come whether you like it or not. UnitedHealth has already begun preperations to work with the goverment as a non-profit.

no thats not where I'm getting that number, smart ass. That number comes from the total cost per work hour. They could be getting paid $29 dollars an hour but the total cost after you add in health care, pensions, etc climbs to over $70

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2162_chart1.gif

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2162.cfm
given that this source is a little biased, but the numbers aren't and I can produce many more sources if you insist, since you have shown none

you might be the biggest idiot on this board... so you know who I voted for?? Your arrogant assumptions couldn't be more wrong. If you didn't read the thread it says automaker's get bailed out today by pres. bush and if you haven't read the thread, I completely disagree with Bush. I wish he didn't bail them out. And I love how you assume I voted for him the past 8 years which isn't true either. I don't agree with most the things he's done and how you have tried to turn this into "Blame bush for everything" thread is beyond me, and then you try to associate me with him... how??

let's examine this dumb statement...



so companies need to pay their employee's more, thus cutting their bottom line and in this case driving them out of business? so its better for the company to pay their employees more temporarily, till they go out of business because they can't afford the increase in expenses and then everyone is screwed. Your logic is beyond flawed, you think companies have the extra cash flow right now to pay everyone whatever they want? If you haven't noticed businesses are dropping like flies and dropping a bigger burden on them is irresponsible and mindless.


O you got this from the Heritage Foundation!!! Great reserching!! Why didnt you just go have a beer with Karl Rove and ask him his thoughts on the subject? Prolly would have been more fun:D

The part you and everyother anti-UAW member always dont like to talk about is that "ect." part you leave out

Ill let this guy tell you all about where that flawed info you got came from...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjZ8vgvbM1s&feature=related



BTW there is a little something required in economics that they may not have taught you in econ and that is called spending power! Which is what has been lacking in our "TrickleDown economics" society for 35 years while CEO pay is now 300x the average worker income. Bare in mind this is the first time ever prior to the economic down turn where we had 6 years of economic growth and wages remained stagnet. Imagine that

O you got this from the Heritage Foundation!!! Great reserching!! Why didnt you just go have a beer with Karl Rove and ask him his thoughts on the subject? Prolly would have been more fun:D

The part you and everyother anti-UAW member always dont like to talk about is that "ect." part you leave out

Ill let this guy tell you all about where that flawed info you got came from...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjZ8vgvbM1s&feature=related



BTW there is a little something required in economics that they may not have taught you in econ and that is called spending power! Which is what has been lacking in our "TrickleDown economics" society for 35 years while CEO pay is now 300x the average worker income. Bare in mind this is the first time ever prior to the economic down turn where we had 6 years of economic growth and wages remained stagnet. Imagine that


wow... you are F***ing idiot... you make fun of my source and then you post a video of Keith Olbermann!! lol you crack me up. Do you not understand what I am saying!! The COST per worker labor hour! That means what they spend per hour TOTAL on their employees. I already said that they are getting paid $30 an hour wages (which is way way too high anyway for unskilled labor, subtract that number by 10 and we could reach an agreement).

toyota's total cost per labor hour is around $45, big 3 = over $70.

For some reason you think I want to sit here and defend bush, I'm not going to because I don't like the man, nor have I supported him. Your a ******* idiot that can't read what I am saying. And I like how you didn't respond to anything else I said.

so... let's hear it mr. far-left, union loving elitest... why do the big 3 need the UAW? And can you please explain how someone making $30 an hour (that's roughly over $60k) for unskilled labor helps our auto industry? Your telling me that the UAW is not a problem, its so easy for you to attack me but you can't seem give me any information on how the UAW has helped the big 3?

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2162_chart1.gif



You know that graph means nothing, right? You realize that the private sector bar includes every other job in America? Including beneath minimum wage farm workers who have no benefits at all and teenagers working at McDonalds.

Lets brake down those numbers.

That link you provided says that the average worker makes $30 an hour (meaning about half are making less than that). It has this to say about the rest of the cost of labor:

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include[5]:

Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).

All of those are standard benefits you will find in almost any decent career type job. I get all of that working for Boeing. What your link failed to point out is that most of those benefits don't cost much per worker hour to service and help tremendously with the worker's standard of living. I'm willing to bet that of the $33.58 an hour that's paid into benefits, more than 2/3s of that is to pay for healthcare. The problem is not with overpaid workers ($30 an hour is just about the minimum you need to raise a middle-class family these days). The problem is, as I've said already, an insurance and healthcare industry that is raping the shit out of companies. Any company that competes globally and tries to keep their worker's standard of living high can't compete. This isn't just an Auto Industry problem. This year I went on strike against Boeing because they wanted to take benefits away and shift healthcare costs onto me (currently making less than $20 an hour). They're doing this to try to stay competitive with Airbus and the rest of the world's emerging aircraft manufacturers who use low wage workers who either have no benefits or are covered by a social medical program. We can't compete with that. In ANY industry. We can compete with that if we stop letting healthcare for citizens be the burden of the company who has to pass the cost onto the customer.

do you truly not understand what I am saying? Your right the private sector bar means nothing and I wish they wouldn't have thrown that on the graph, however, those numbers for the big three are substantial.

That link you provided says that the average worker makes $30 an hour (meaning about half are making less than that).

umm... no by that logic half would be making 1.5 times the average as well. There is not even close to being that big of a spread in wages. Most make between $26 to 34. Find me a large number of members of the UAW making $15 and I'll concede.

What you guys are failing to understand is that toyota's total cost per labor hour is ~$45. The big 3 = more than $70. So after you add the workers wage's, health, dental, blah, blah, blah it equals $45. So please explain to me how they are to remain competitive if there is a $25 difference per hour per worker when they are selling similar cars??

something has to give, and wannabess will sit here and try to say I support the CEO's making 300x the average worker, i love george bush, i hate all unions, i kill puppies in my spare time. The UAW has a large part of the blame for these astronomical labor costs.

And since when is 60k a year not a living wage??? Are you kidding me, that's more than I make now and they do unskilled labor! 40-50k are very livable wages, I know because I fall within that category.

And for the tenth time, I know that health care is one of the major costs. and don't let wannabess tell you that I love high health care costs.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081119/fact_check_autos_labor_costs.html?.v=1

GM knows that their labor costs are too high and they can't stay competitive at these current figures. You can complain about CEO's pay but when you have literally thousands and thousands of labor work hours everyday, you got to cut somewhere. And I'm all for them whacking their current management, but who will they hire? There aren't that many executives with an in depth understanding of the automotive market just sitting around somewhere.

EDIT: for those who keep trying to make this a political argument, click here and voice your opinion http://seatstaysup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19828