Automotive News, Media & Press - First Loss For Toyota In 70 Years

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2008/12/Wrecked-Toyota.jpg
Source (http://jalopnik.com/5114286/toyota-may-post-first-annual-loss-in-70-years)
According to reports, Toyota will again revise its earnings prediction to the point where second half losses will negate gains from the first half of 2008, resulting in the first yearly loss in 70 years.

Japanese news outlets are reporting Toyota will announce second half losses which will exceed the profits from the first half of the year, resulting in overall net loss for the 2008 fiscal year. This comes in the face of increasingly dire sales figures across the auto industry and against a background of bailout loans for GM and Chrysler announced this morning. Because of this trend, Toyota may refrain from making sales and production forecasts for 2009 in an effort to avoid bringing shame upon Toyota City when they cannot meet targets. [Reuters]



I know GM is hurting now too, but I'm glad to see Toyota taking a hit. I'm sure they have enough cash squirreled away to absorb this hit, but hey it shows weakness. Hopefully the Big 3 can posistion themselves to recover quicker an gain ground coming out of the recession.

good, let them fall

Oh well, shit happens. :lol: :rice ;)




good, let them fall:werd:

good, let them fall

Word is Toyota has already cashed its bailout check from the Japanese government. I doubt they'll go anywhere sadly.

Reporting it's first loss in 70 years is something GM can only dream about sadly, we're so used to losses from our own automakers that it doesn't even effect us anymore.

Toyota has more than enough money built up to weather a long, hard economic storm. GM already pissed all theirs away the past few years and refused to do anything about it besides beg the government to give them our money to waste.

all this shows is the economy sucks and no one's buying cars...

Toyota has more than enough money built up to weather a long, hard economic storm.True, because UNLIKE IN THE U.S. the loyal and supportive citizens of Japan DO support their own so the likes of Toyota and Honda are in a decent financial position.
Not to mention that their government does so as well.

Reporting it's first loss in 70 years is something GM can only dream about sadly, we're so used to losses from our own automakers that it doesn't even effect us anymore.

Toyota has more than enough money built up to weather a long, hard economic storm. GM already pissed all theirs away the past few years and refused to do anything about it besides beg the government to give them our money to waste.
Toyota also wasn't spending huge sums of money on brand images when the economy took a crap. Toyota also wasn't spending huge sums of money ensuring health benefits for their employees and their families when the economy took a crap. Toyota also wasn't spending huge sums of money R&D of new products when the economy took a crap (that was probably paid for by the Japanese government).

GM has been spending a lot of money (its own money) to bring good products to market and to keep each division around. Toyota in the meantime has been bringing out cheap, ugly, inefficient, and fragile products to market. The FJ Cruiser, Tundra, Camry, all had problems none of the domestic automakers had. Breaking sub-frames/bodies from the small extra weight of a body kit (FJ), breaking camshafts (apparently only isolated incidents, but still shouldn't ever happen), again a weak frame (especially for a "work" truck, a C-channel frame, seriously Toyota?), and IRS on a "work" truck (all 3 for the Tundra), and frequent engine sludge (Camry). Very few people I talk to have heard of any of these problems with Toyota, but can rattle off a whole list of things they've heard about the Big 3. Why don't we even out the playing field then see who really deserves some help.

Toyota also wasn't spending huge sums of money on brand images when the economy took a crap. Toyota also wasn't spending huge sums of money ensuring health benefits for their employees and their families when the economy took a crap. Toyota also wasn't spending huge sums of money R&D of new products when the economy took a crap (that was probably paid for by the Japanese government).EXCELLENT points.
It's almost shocking that people are actually bashing and ridiculing these (U.S.) companies for TAKING GREAT CARE OF THEIR EMPLOYEES for all of these years. I simply cannot believe what I'm reading half of the time when I see fellow Americans knocking the Big 3 for that, even if it wasn't the smartest business move back in the day when all of those contracts were first signed.






GM has been spending a lot of money (its own money) to bring good products to market and to keep each division around. Toyota in the meantime has been bringing out cheap, ugly, inefficient, and fragile products to market. The FJ Cruiser, Tundra, Camry, all had problems none of the domestic automakers had. Breaking sub-frames/bodies from the small extra weight of a body kit (FJ), breaking camshafts (apparently only isolated incidents, but still shouldn't ever happen), again a weak frame (especially for a "work" truck, a C-channel frame, seriously Toyota?), and IRS on a "work" truck (all 3 for the Tundra), and frequent engine sludge (Camry). Very few people I talk to have heard of any of these problems with Toyota, but can rattle off a whole list of things they've heard about the Big 3. Why don't we even out the playing field then see who really deserves some help.Yeah, the 'rusting Tacoma frames' problem was no joke either.
Of course the media helped brush most of the Toyota/Honda recall/quality issues right under the proverbial rug. :nono:

The media has a lot to do with why we're in the situation we're in right now. I quit getting one major car mag two decades ago when all they did was bash American cars. Bob

Reporting it's first loss in 70 years is something GM can only dream about sadly, we're so used to losses from our own automakers that it doesn't even effect us anymore.

Are you really sad about that? Somehow I doubt that. jmo

Toyota has more than enough money built up to weather a long, hard economic storm. GM already pissed all theirs away the past few years and refused to do anything about it besides beg the government to give them our money to waste.

GM pissed a majority of their money away on legacy costs. They should go bankrupt like your saying and pass off all those pensions and healthcare costs to the goverment. Without those millions of retirees dragging them down they would be profitable and be able to spend more on R&D:bang:

True, because UNLIKE IN THE U.S. the loyal and supportive citizens of Japan DO support their own so the likes of Toyota and Honda are in a decent financial position.
Not to mention that their government does so as well.


Dude you seriously need to get off the nuts of this "un American, un Patroitic, un Loyal" crap. No where does it say in anywhere, any law or anything that you need to buy American? Where does it say I need to give money to a company that has a shitty game plan? No where does it say I need to buy a inferior car (so be it they finally stepped up and made a decent car, only took them 15 years to do so) I again, what brands are all your electronics? Where brand clothes you are wearing?

I buy American cars. Several of them. But, I still can admit they f-cked up and don't know how to run a company.

I'm glad to see Toyota is not invincible, as the media has been putting them in a huge spotlight recently to embarrass the big 3. Now their glory shows signs of reality.

Dude you seriously need to get off the nuts of this "un American, un Patroitic, un Loyal" crap. No where does it say in anywhere, any law or anything that you need to buy American? Where does it say I need to give money to a company that has a shitty game plan? No where does it say I need to buy a inferior car (so be it they finally stepped up and made a decent car, only took them 15 years to do so) I again, what brands are all your electronics? Where brand clothes you are wearing?

For one his statement happens to be true. The Japanese Co's are supported by their goverment and their people. For two whats wrong with supporting an American company and having the benefit of getting an American made product that many feel is better? Sorry not all of us are lead around blindly believing that anything foreign made is superior.

I don't believe it blindly, I never said I did. This is my second chevy car. All I ever have said is it's dumb to say people are un patrotic if they buy a forigien car. People shop around if they see a value in say a Honda, how does them buying it make them any less American?
I'm sure there are plently of service men and women out there that have imports. Does that make them any less American?
All I ever tried to say was just because people don't just go out and toss money at the 3it doesn't make any them any less then the next guy.

For one his statement happens to be true. The Japanese Co's are supported by their goverment and their people. For two whats wrong with supporting an American company and having the benefit of getting an American made product that many feel is better? Sorry not all of us are lead around blindly believing that anything foreign made is superior.

Word. The media has been swinging off toyotas nuts for years now.

Where were the big stories when...

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/182700/toyota_recalls_more_cars_than_they.html

http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Linked-to-Human-Trafficking-and-Sweatshop-Abuses-31258/

broke out.

I dont know 1 person who isnt a car enthusiest that knows of any stories of Toyota fuck ups.....but they can still tell you America makes shitty cars.

Its a fucking shame that our own media will bash our products before direct foreign competitors.

Sorry I wasn't singling you out, the inferior comments remark kinda came off like you were one the many who believe foreign made products are superior. Competition is good, and the competition has made GM make better cars. But whats wrong with supporting your own Country? Especially if you are getting the same quality and value if not more so. Iam glad to see Toyotas struggles finally being reported. And I'll say it again, If the Big 3 didn't have such high legacy costs(The biggest healthcare provider in the country)
they would be just as healthy as any other auto manufacturer is right now.

The whole media love of Toyota is in part based on interia. If you look at the history of the car market, the Japanese used to be bashed for making junky cars prior to the Oil Embargo. Even though the reality of the situation was that Japanese cars were mechanically superior to American cars of the time. The Japanese cars though were still tainted by their first generation failures and the fact they made small cars.

Then the oil embargo hit and all of sudden people were forced to drive Toyotas and they discovered "Hey these don't suck, they're actually pretty reliable." At the same time Detroit did release a lot of crap cars. So this lead to the belief that Japanese cars were better than Detroit cars. Which was true for awhile and has endured until today.

The problem with moving in a market on a big ticket item, like a car, is people establish buying habits. There is alays this latent fear that they'll end up spending 30k only to get a lemon. So if a brand treats them well they normally stick within that company. You'll see economic movements like say when someone is a teenager they buy a Scion, as a young adult they buy a Toyota and then as they get rich they buy a Lexus, but they never leave the Toyota family.

The beauty is that the recession will suspend buying patterns to a degree and open up the pontential for movement, the same way people moves from American products to Japanese products after the oil shock. Assuming GM can survive the drought themselves they have a chance to regain sales. Right nowis a great time for the engineers, there is no need to rush cars to the market since few people are buying, rather they can spend time perfecting vehicles, then when people have money again you stick those vehicles into production and roll them onto dealer lots.

Plus in general the Asian 3 are much better that public relations and silent recalls, or avoiding recalls.

The whole media love of Toyota is in part based on interia. If you look at the history of the car market, the Japanese used to be bashed for making junky cars prior to the Oil Embargo. Even though the reality of the situation was that Japanese cars were mechanically superior to American cars of the time. The Japanese cars though were still tainted by their first generation failures and the fact they made small cars.

Then the oil embargo hit and all of sudden people were forced to drive Toyotas and they discovered "Hey these don't suck, they're actually pretty reliable." At the same time Detroit did release a lot of crap cars. So this lead to the belief that Japanese cars were better than Detroit cars. Which was true for awhile and has endured until today.

The problem with moving in a market on a big ticket item, like a car, is people establish buying habits. There is alays this latent fear that they'll end up spending 30k only to get a lemon. So if a brand treats them well they normally stick within that company. You'll see economic movements like say when someone is a teenager they buy a Scion, as a young adult they buy a Toyota and then as they get rich they buy a Lexus, but they never leave the Toyota family.

The beauty is that the recession will suspend buying patterns to a degree and open up the pontential for movement, the same way people moves from American products to Japanese products after the oil shock. Assuming GM can survive the drought themselves they have a chance to regain sales. Right nowis a great time for the engineers, there is no need to rush cars to the market since few people are buying, rather they can spend time perfecting vehicles, then when people have money again you stick those vehicles into production and roll them onto dealer lots.

Plus in general the Asian 3 are much better that public relations and silent recalls, or avoiding recalls.

^^I agree 100%

The media has a lot to do with why we're in the situation we're in right now. I quit getting one major car mag two decades ago when all they did was bash American cars. BobFor one his statement happens to be true. The Japanese Co's are supported by their goverment and their people. For two whats wrong with supporting an American company and having the benefit of getting an American made product that many feel is better? Sorry not all of us are lead around blindly believing that anything foreign made is superior.True.

I buy American cars. Several of them. But, I still can admit they f-cked up and don't know how to run a company.

I'm glad to see Toyota is not invincible, as the media has been putting them in a huge spotlight recently to embarrass the big 3. Now their glory shows signs of reality.

You should see the University I went to. They circle jerk to Toyota. I went to USI. University of Southern Indiana. Recently in the last two years the Princenton plant has been their making trucks. Whether is marketing, accounting (JIT), management anything. They praise them. I hated my college for that. I told my professor I didn't see any Toyota with 505 hp and 26 to 28 mpg yet.

Dude you seriously need to get off the nuts of this "un American, un Patroitic, un Loyal" crap.Do I?
What is so wrong with looking at how citizens in other nations do it and simply following their lead?:huh:
In Japan, the majority of consumers purchase ONLY Japanese nameplate vehicles.
In Germany, the majority of consumers purchase ONLY German nameplate vehicles.
And guess what, it is NOT a coincidence that the likes of Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen etc, though also hurting somewhat, are NOT on the brink of destruction like GM, Ford and Chrysler are. A destruction/end that can cause a ripple effect/fallout that WILL in fact someday impact YOUR life and the life of your offspring.
I'm only looking out for your kids so maybe YOU need to get off my back on this one?

You do have to admit, your motives in questioning my 'buy American nameplate vehicles' stance is just a little bit questionable or suspect when you coincidentally also happen to be among the many that bought an import nameplate and helped support another nation's economy...of course you're going to defend that action LOL.






what brands are all your electronics? Where brand clothes you are wearing?Not sure what this means exactly.
Are you actually saying that if my TV is made in Taiwan or that my shirt is made in Sri Lanka that I have absolutely no place asking others to spend the $25k+ they've allocated for a new car sold by a company based here in the U.S. (as I have also done) instead of Japan? :confused:
So if I happen to buy an import name brand stereo or sweat pants I may as well just buy EVERYTHING else from an import manufacturer as well?:huh:
Based on that twisted logic, if someone needs a fingernail amputed then they should just tell the doctor to take the whole arm instead because, well, there is no difference, right? :lol:

Toyota sorta invited JIT "Just in time Inventory" It looks good on the books. But the stupid thing is their idea of it is letting semi's park outside there factories till they need the part. So its not on their balance sheet.

Toyota sorta invited JIT "Just in time Inventory" It looks good on the books. But the stupid thing is their idea of it is letting semi's park outside there factories till they need the part. So its not on their balance sheet.True, it can end up being a purely negative cause and effect scenario on that one. Toyota might gain from it but others (suppliers, trucking companies etc.) have to suffer as a result.
And people used to call GM arrogant LOL.

Toyota sorta invited JIT "Just in time Inventory" It looks good on the books. But the stupid thing is their idea of it is letting semi's park outside there factories till they need the part. So its not on their balance sheet.

I'm getting the gist of it, but would you or someone elaborate on this a little more?

I'm getting the gist of it, but would you or someone elaborate on this a little more?

What JIT? It's just like it says. It looks good on paper for companies so they don't have excessive inventory on their balance sheets etc. It just means the inventory shows up right when they need it. They don't stock pile parts in warehouses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_In_Time_%28business%29
Sales on Wiki that Ford started this, but Im not sure about that.

True, because UNLIKE IN THE U.S. the loyal and supportive citizens of Japan DO support their own so the likes of Toyota and Honda are in a decent financial position.
Not to mention that their government does so as well.

Their own automakers also make high quality cars that they want to buy. It's a little different here....

Automaker Crisis Hits Toyota

Dec 22 03:37 PM US/Eastern
By YURI KAGEYAMA
AP Business Writer

NAGOYA, Japan (AP) - Toyota Motor Corp. said Monday it will report the first operating loss in 70 years, acknowledging that after a decade of rapid growth it can no longer escape the slowdown plaguing the global auto industry.
The Japanese auto giant also lowered its global vehicle sales forecast for the second time this year and said it was putting ambitious expansion plans on hold, in large part because of a precipitous drop in demand in the key U.S. market.

"The tough times are hitting us far faster, wider and deeper than expected," Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe told a gloomy news conference at the company's Nagoya headquarters. "This is an unprecedented crisis requiring urgent action."

Toyota had reported strong growth in recent years, boosted by heavy demand for its fuel-efficient models like the Camry sedan and Prius gas-electric hybrid.

But Watanabe said a severe drop in demand, especially in the U.S., which accounts for one-third of vehicle sales, and profit erosion from a surging yen were too much for Japan's No. 1 automaker. Overall U.S. auto sales fell to their lowest level in 26 years last month.

"The change that has hit the world economy is of a critical scale that comes once in 100 years," Watanabe said.

Toyota said it expects an operating loss of 150 billion yen ($1.66 billion) for the fiscal year ending in March, compared with an operating profit of 2.27 trillion yen ($25.2 billion) a year earlier.

Toyota said it would still post a small net profit of 50 billion yen ($555 million), thanks to outside dividend income, down from year-earlier earnings of 1.7 trillion yen ($18.89 billion). But operating income is seen as the best reflection of its core business.

The outlook was a dramatic change of fortune for the iconic company, which in recent years had outlined ambitious expansion plans and weathered an industry slowdown much better than its U.S. rivals.

Toyota, which started in business as a loom maker, began making trucks and passenger cars in 1937. Its first and only operating loss came the following year, before it started reporting formal results in 1941.

At the time, Toyota was still far behind the American automakers. With World War II, Toyota started a side business making aircraft engines, but that group company switched to making auto parts and sewing machines after the war.

In its forecast, Toyota lowered the number of vehicles it expects to sell globally this calendar year to 8.96 million, down 4 percent from last year. Earlier this year, Toyota had projected worldwide sales of 9.5 million vehicles.

Initially, it had an even more aggressive target of 9.85 million, and expectations had been growing that the tally would reach 10 million in coming years—allowing Toyota to dethrone General Motors Corp. as the world's top automaker.

Tsuyoshi Mochimaru, auto analyst for Barclays Capital in Tokyo, warned worse may be ahead.

U.S. auto sales aren't expected to start recovering until late 2009, and the dollar—already at a 13-year low against the yen—could lag further, he said. A strong yen hurts results because overseas profits must be converted into the Japanese currency.

"The problem is next year," said Mochimaru. "It's unmistakable that things are extremely tough for Toyota."

Watanabe and other Toyota executives repeated a recent announcement that expansion plans will be on hold, including a new plant in Mississippi and projects in India.

Toyota said there were no plans to lay off any full-time employees, though it plans to cut the number of temporary workers at its Japanese plants in half to about 3,000.

Toyota is a relatively old-style Japanese company that offers lifetime employment, and only in recent years has hired and let go of temporary workers to adjust production. It said it was reviewing overseas jobs but had not reached a decision.

Watanabe vowed Toyota would grow so lean it would realize profitability even if its worldwide sales fall as low as 7 million vehicles—what he called the basic "bottom line" for Toyota.

"We must change to become more slim, muscular and flexible," he said.

The automaker will focus on hybrids and small cars, and invest in ecological technology to prepare for long-term growth, officials said.

While Japan's automakers are in far better financial shape than their cash-strapped American counterparts, the global slowdown is hitting them hard. Last week, Japan's No. automaker, Honda Motor Co., also lowered profit and sales forecasts and declined to give a vehicle sales goal for 2009.

Monday marks the second time Toyota reduced its forecast. Initially, it had projected net profit of 1.25 trillion yen ($13.9 billion) for the fiscal year, but last month lowered that to 550 billion yen ($6.1 billion).

Also Monday, it lowered its revenue forecast to 21.5 trillion yen ($239 billion), down about 18 percent from a year earlier.

Toyota's U.S. vehicles sales plunged by a third on year in November, when overall sales fell to their lowest level in more than 26 years. And there is little hope for a quick fix as consumers hold back big purchases amid a credit crunch, rising unemployment and fears about the future.

The company's stock fell 5 yen, or 0.17 percent, to 2,895 yen in Tokyo. The benchmark Nikkei 225 stock average rose 1.5 percent.

http://img.breitbart.com/images/ap.gif (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D957UQPG0&show_article=1)

Their own automakers also make high quality cars that they want to buy. It's a little different here....

Yes, just like Mitsubishi, Suburus and the 2nd tier Japanese automakers that you won't see last for more than a 100k. Not to mention the POS Rav4 that I'm currently stuck with. Yes, the buzzing pos engine will probably go for 200k mi, but everything else will fall off of it. "Yes, real high quality". I'm still waiting to be impressed with these fine Japanese vehicles.

Regardless, the Japanese OEMs, their government and their people know that it is critical to support their manufacturing base. We, apparently do not.

What's funny is, our economy, through American job gains would recover quickly if Toyota went under in this country. If GM or Ford went under, we would see our unemployment rate hit the highest #'s we would see in our live times. In addition, it would bring down the Foreign OEMs due to us not being able to afford their products. Case in point; When the Senate anounced that the big 3 would not get the loans earlier in the month, the Foreign OEM's stock dropped right along with our American companies. The market acknowledges this is the case.

So in theory, Toyota should loan the big 3 the money they need to survive so they can also prosper. I'm saying this tongue in cheek, but when you watch the market move with the health of the big 3 it very well could be true.

Ha ha, no.

GM and Ford are technically under already, all those jobs you speak of have evaporated, those people just haven't been out of work yet because the whole morass is being falsely propped up. GM and Ford don't have the market in this country to support how huge they are, either way there is going to be higher unemployment.

It's not Toyota's fault, it's GM and Ford's fault. They alienated generations of Americans from their product and people comfortable buying Toyotas, Hondas and other foreign cars are never going to consider an American one. You might not like your Toyota but everyone else who owns them do and they don't have to worry about being treated bad by the dealership or getting raped by resale value or reliability either.

Toyota never screwed up at home like Ford and GM did here. Ford and GM also do not produce cars here that even fit the Japanese market's tastes and needs. It's also a mature market with no room for growth or any other competitors. That's why Ford and GM have engineering facilities that are independently run in other markets to cater specifically to those markets, like Europe. None of the Ford or GM products over there are actually American, they are European and engineered by Europeans with their own market in mind.

Their own automakers also make high quality carsSo do ours.

So do ours.

Concur!

I don't believe it blindly, I never said I did. This is my second chevy car. All I ever have said is it's dumb to say people are un patrotic if they buy a forigien car. People shop around if they see a value in say a Honda, how does them buying it make them any less American?
I'm sure there are plently of service men and women out there that have imports. Does that make them any less American?
All I ever tried to say was just because people don't just go out and toss money at the 3it doesn't make any them any less then the next guy.

Real easy, if you love this country send your cash to GM, Ford or Chrysler. Seriously How can you say your a patriot and Give your hard earned American dollars to Tojo or Hans Fahrfegnugen?

And Hey this one goes out to Commissar TriShield, Whats the deal dude? I mean if you like/support the Kraut/tojo so much why are you even on this site? You say that you cant call someone a non-patriot for buying a foreign car but Im calling you on that one, If you really love this greatest country in the history of the world then BUY AMERICAN-go out of your way to buy American tools from American company's made by American hands! Go the extra mile to actually support this country. I know the concept of doing for your country is somewhat dated and alot here probably think Im backwards but it is your responsibility as an American to do all that you can to support this country and fight the encroaching foreigner.

Real easy, if you love this country send your cash to GM, Ford or Chrysler. Seriously How can you say your a patriot and Give your hard earned American dollars to Tojo or Hans Fahrfegnugen?It really IS that simple. :usa:

I'll keep dropping my cash where I want to. Next time I'm in the market for a NEW car I'll look at the big 3. If their cars have the quality and looks and gives me the itch to buy, so be it. I'll eat my own words. But if the interior is bland like the Trail Blazer, if (Bestill my beating heart) Consumer reports and other car mags give it pour reviews or less then an equal car, or if people I know have it and say they don't like it fo X, Y, and Z you can bet all the tea in China I won't be buying it, no matter what. I don't care if Gm gives me 10,000 grand off. I don't buy problems. It's my right as a American Loving Citizen to spend my Hard earned dollars where I see fit, where I can get the most for them.

But here's to the Big 3, three making decent cars and to the Big 3 to come out of this shit box they put them selves in..

Real easy, if you love this country send your cash to GM, Ford or Chrysler. Seriously How can you say your a patriot and Give your hard earned American dollars to Tojo or Hans Fahrfegnugen?

And Hey this one goes out to Commissar TriShield, Whats the deal dude? I mean if you like/support the Kraut/tojo so much why are you even on this site? You say that you cant call someone a non-patriot for buying a foreign car but Im calling you on that one, If you really love this greatest country in the history of the world then BUY AMERICAN-go out of your way to buy American tools from American company's made by American hands! Go the extra mile to actually support this country. I know the concept of doing for your country is somewhat dated and alot here probably think Im backwards but it is your responsibility as an American to do all that you can to support this country and fight the encroaching foreigner.

Well said, and correct. I get tired of buying foreign made junk and constantly having to replace it because it breaks. Especially tools and appliances.

I'll keep dropping my cash where I want to. Next time I'm in the market for a NEW car I'll look at the big 3. If their cars have the quality and looks and gives me the itch to buy, so be it. I'll eat my own words. But if the interior is bland like the Trail Blazer, if (Bestill my beating heart) Consumer reports and other car mags give it pour reviews or less then an equal car, or if people I know have it and say they don't like it fo X, Y, and Z you can bet all the tea in China I won't be buying it, no matter what. I don't care if Gm gives me 10,000 grand off. I don't buy problems. It's my right as a American Loving Citizen to spend my Hard earned dollars where I see fit, where I can get the most for them.

But here's to the Big 3, three making decent cars and to the Big 3 to come out of this shit box they put them selves in..

1. You are confusing being an American with being patriotic. They do not mean the same thing. We have several "Americans" who also hate America. Being a patriot means you support the country. Car purchases are the 2nd highest purchase for most people, after houses. When you buy a foreign brand vehicle, your profit goes to another country. That is not patriotic. You have these rights as an American citizen because patriotic men and women died for you at war. Keep that in mind.

2. You drive an old Camaro, yet seem concerned about quality? Have you even personally experienced a quality American vehicle of your own yet? That Camaro is junk by new GM/Ford/Dodge standards. If you can accept a Camaro as your baseline, just about anything built in 2008 is better by leaps and bounds. Consider your Camaro was designed back before 1990, then first released in 1993. It is nearly 20 years old on the design and quality standards.

Also everyone always seems to conveniently forget how expensive parts are for companies like Honda and Toyota. Yea maybe something’s on their cars last 50K instead of 35K but they also cost 4 times as much as a similar part would on an American car and not so much now but in the past the labor was much higher because American cars used to be very easy to work on. Many times in the past you would spend a lot more cash on a foreign car over its life even if it needed a few less repairs than its American counter part.

Plus I love the whole argument that this is a free market economy and let the strong survive and if the big 3 need loans screw them. News flash no this country doesn't have a free market economy and even if it did “let the strong survive” still wouldn’t make sense since we are part of a global economy with foreign industries that do get support from their governments, which obviously makes for an unbalanced playing field.

Plus to people saying Toyota doesn’t have legacy cost like the big 3 your right they don’t because they freaking have socialized healthcare. That huge chunk of their work force based in Japan doesn’t really cost them anything for health care. They operate in a totally different system then we do so it is very hard to draw parallels. Plus I just find it hard to say “yea American companies should cut their benefits and pay substantially because that is how shitty the foreign companies treat our citizens employed by them.” I figured it be more patriotic to say “hey you foreign automakers why don’t you pay our citizens more after all they/we are the reason you have become so successful in this country” I’m not saying the Big 3 mad mistakes and true they do need to make cuts but telling them to cut wages by 50% or more doesn’t make sense either.

Real easy, if you love this country send your cash to GM, Ford or Chrysler. Seriously How can you say your a patriot and Give your hard earned American dollars to Tojo or Hans Fahrfegnugen?

And Hey this one goes out to Commissar TriShield, Whats the deal dude? I mean if you like/support the Kraut/tojo so much why are you even on this site? You say that you cant call someone a non-patriot for buying a foreign car but Im calling you on that one, If you really love this greatest country in the history of the world then BUY AMERICAN-go out of your way to buy American tools from American company's made by American hands! Go the extra mile to actually support this country. I know the concept of doing for your country is somewhat dated and alot here probably think Im backwards but it is your responsibility as an American to do all that you can to support this country and fight the encroaching foreigner.

If they loved this country they wouldn't send their jobs overseas, while leaving 100's of thousands of people unemployed. Granted the Big three employee more workers than foreign automakers, but atleast they're giving the American people jobs.

People love to complain about Toyota, Honda and Nissan, but never think about how much money they bring to the US economy. They also never complain when GM uses foreign parts such as motors and trans in their own vehicles. Case in point the Duramax.

The only car that I like from the Big three:

Vette
Caddy
Charger

No other cars interest me. The impala has a bland styling and does not compete with the likes of the Accord and Camry! Yes, it does sell well, but only due to rental cars and fleet sales. They came along way with the interior design, but overall the car has a bland look to it.

If you want to support America, go fight in the war! Our troops are fighting for our right to have freedom of choices. I don't have to purchase a subpar quality vehicle because its American.

1. You are confusing being an American with being patriotic. They do not mean the same thing. We have several "Americans" who also hate America. Being a patriot means you support the country. Car purchases are the 2nd highest purchase for most people, after houses. When you buy a foreign brand vehicle, your profit goes to another country. That is not patriotic. You have these rights as an American citizen because patriotic men and women died for you at war. Keep that in mind.

2. You drive an old Camaro, yet seem concerned about quality? Have you even personally experienced a quality American vehicle of your own yet? That Camaro is junk by new GM/Ford/Dodge standards. If you can accept a Camaro as your baseline, just about anything built in 2008 is better by leaps and bounds. Consider your Camaro was designed back before 1990, then first released in 1993. It is nearly 20 years old on the design and quality standards.


If I buy a new GM or Dodge or Ford and they use import parts from Mexico or China, profits are going there. Alot of Chevy's car were made in Canada, so money went there.

Although my camaro was not a 100% new purchase I bought it in 03 with only 3,000 miles on it, so no it's not new new, but damn near new. But I also didn't not buy my camaro for the reasons I've stated in this thread or in others. I bought it because I liked the style and the power I got.

Both Suburan my father has had have had was nothing but problems. I will say this, he has had nothing go wrong besides a power seat motor on his 99 Dodge Cummins though.

If I buy a new GM or Dodge or Ford and they use import parts from Mexico or China, profits are going there. Alot of Chevy's car were made in Canada, so money went there.

You need to brush up on economics some more. Those parts and labor purchased in other countries are a COST of production. These other countries like Mexico have cheaper skilled labor, therefore increase the PROFIT of a product. The PROFIT goes to the company that produces the product, which is American. The PROFIT comes to American companies.

You can't dissect the individual components of a vehicle and list a profit for each item and where it came from. You must look at the big picture here.

Vehicle COSTS $X to build.
Reducing COSTS increases PROFIT.

Profit is what matters. Those Toyotas and Nissans being built here in the USA are also saving costs for Japan. That makes them pay less to transport the vehicles overseas, and gives them some tax breaks for creating jobs here. The PROFIT at the end of the day still goes back to Japan.

In reality none of the autocompanies are "X Country Companies". The Big 3 are global auto companies, with interests in all parts of the global. They've proven themselves willing to use the global supply chain, be it German parts from suppliers like Bosch or Asian parts from people like DENSO. The profits go back to the stockholders, who happen to be anyone in the world with money and the ability to purchase stock on a stock market, be it the London Exchange, the New York Exchange, the Kala Lumpar Exchange, or even by logging in to E-Trade via their satelitte phone in freaking Nepal or somewhere. Hell I used profits off some of my Asian 3 stocks to pay for part of my GXP.

That being said the Big Three have shown themselves to be more North American focused, the bulk of Big Three management and engineering is located in North America, while the Asian 3 have the bulk of their white collar workers in Japan. So you can consider the Big Three more American, but they hold no special loyalty to America. They have ties and existing infrastructure which makes it economically beneficial for them to stay in America, but when it makes economic sense they'll shut down the Grand Prix Plant up in Ontario and start rolling G8s off the boat from overseas. Or bringing Aveos in from Korea.

At the end of the day the Big Three CEOs are concerned about the global health their company. Right now America is the world's largest car market, so our market is a huge concern to them, but they also care about the merging Chinese market etc.

"Buy American, support American workers" is just a slogan at the end of the day. My window sticker said 80% American and Canadian when I bought my car. I have no doubt that if it makes GM money future window stickers will say "70% American/Canadian" and trend downwards from there.

Gee whiz.. toyota loses money and what do they do? RESTRUCTURE!

GM loses money and what do they do? Keep the upper management, and ask the government for money

GM apparently has to have money stolen for its survival.

The media has a lot to do with why we're in the situation we're in right now. I quit getting one major car mag two decades ago when all they did was bash American cars. Bob


All media is in business to create a story. The auto industry is in trouble...
Toyota is in the auto business. Why the resentment? Why be happy that any business or industry is failing?:barf:

:angel: Jakes Dad

If they loved this country they wouldn't send their jobs overseas, while leaving 100's of thousands of people unemployed. Granted the Big three employee more workers than foreign automakers, but atleast they're giving the American people jobs.If I buy a new GM or Dodge or Ford and they use import parts from Mexico or China, profits are going there. Alot of Chevy's car were made in Canada, so money went there.Their hands were essentially forced to do that.
Based on unfair trade practices and tax benefits given to the import nameplates (and of course the legacy costs (ya know, the same costs that also helped take great care of fellow AMERICANS) that those imports DID NOT have to carry), the Big 3 simply had to find a way to compete in order to stay alive. It sucks but that's what helped cause it.
On a related note, it WAS NOT always that way either. Just look back at the U.S. auto industry from the '20s through the '80s, nearly EVERY aspect of producing a vehicle was accomplished right here on good ol' U.S. soil.




No other cars interest me. The impala has a bland styling and does not compete with the likes of the Accord and Camry! Yes, it does sell well, but only due to rental cars and fleet sales. They came along way with the interior design, but overall the car has a bland look to it.I notice that you conveniently didn't mention the Malibu though.
And I also know why, because it absolutely competes HEAD ON with Accord and Camry in all areas, especially value. Let's not forget the awesome Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan lines either.
So please, try again LOL. ;)




If you want to support America, go fight in the war! Our troops are fighting for our right to have freedom of choices.Great advise, and I agree. :usa:
Of course, and not to restate the obvious here or anything, if the U.S. auto industry goes away then much of that freedom of choice goes away with it as well.




I don't have to purchase a subpar quality vehicle because its American.No you don't. But at the same time one also doesn't have to go out of their way to work against the future of this great country and it's citizens by supporting ONLY another nation's economy/auto industry, that isn't exactly patriotic either. :nono:

You need to brush up on economics some more. Those parts and labor purchased in other countries are a COST of production. These other countries like Mexico have cheaper skilled labor, therefore increase the PROFIT of a product. The PROFIT goes to the company that produces the product, which is American. The PROFIT comes to American companies.

You can't dissect the individual components of a vehicle and list a profit for each item and where it came from. You must look at the big picture here.

Vehicle COSTS $X to build.
Reducing COSTS increases PROFIT.

Profit is what matters. Those Toyotas and Nissans being built here in the USA are also saving costs for Japan. That makes them pay less to transport the vehicles overseas, and gives them some tax breaks for creating jobs here. The PROFIT at the end of the day still goes back to Japan.Exactly.

If you want to support America, go fight in the war! Our troops are fighting for our right to have freedom of choices. I don't have to purchase a subpar quality vehicle because its American.

Since this was posted in response to my post let me say I did, twice, as have a great many of the members here, so now what?

And a subpar vehicle? Have you seen the stuff on the lots lately? Looks pretty good to me.

But it is your right to buy a foreign car, I hope you enjoy contributing to another countries economy.

It just shows how brainwashed people have become. Fact is, the Big 3 released some junk awhile ago, while the imports were releasing some reliable vehicles. In order to compete, the Big 3 have upped their standards, while the imports seem to have coasted. This goes on un-noticed, as people become very brand-loyal with these high-dollar purchases, and are unwilling to switch back to GM/Ford/Chrysler until they buy an absolute lemon from Honda/Nissan/Toyota.

While I commend, and agree with the people who are actively promoting domestic vehicles over imports, it just seems to be falling on deaf ears. Due to the high cost of a vehicle, it is going to take people awhile to come back around to the Big 3 and their product line. Fortunately, they are making it easy for us loyalists to point out examples of their commitment to improve (Malibu, Fusion, etc.).

Personally, I've always been a GM person. To me, they are far easier to work on than the imports when they do break down (every car does - that wasn't a shot at reliability), and they give me a sense of pride, knowing I bought something built "locally."

To stay slightly on topic, did anyone else think that it was only a matter of time before the country became saturated with vehicles, and the bottomless well of buyers "dried up?" That's the feeling I'm getting from this current scenario (obviously compounded by the economic downturn).

The whole media love of Toyota is in part based on interia. If you look at the history of the car market, the Japanese used to be bashed for making junky cars prior to the Oil Embargo. Even though the reality of the situation was that Japanese cars were mechanically superior to American cars of the time. The Japanese cars though were still tainted by their first generation failures and the fact they made small cars.

Then the oil embargo hit and all of sudden people were forced to drive Toyotas and they discovered "Hey these don't suck, they're actually pretty reliable." At the same time Detroit did release a lot of crap cars. So this lead to the belief that Japanese cars were better than Detroit cars. Which was true for awhile and has endured until today.

The problem with moving in a market on a big ticket item, like a car, is people establish buying habits. There is alays this latent fear that they'll end up spending 30k only to get a lemon. So if a brand treats them well they normally stick within that company. You'll see economic movements like say when someone is a teenager they buy a Scion, as a young adult they buy a Toyota and then as they get rich they buy a Lexus, but they never leave the Toyota family.

The beauty is that the recession will suspend buying patterns to a degree and open up the pontential for movement, the same way people moves from American products to Japanese products after the oil shock. Assuming GM can survive the drought themselves they have a chance to regain sales. Right nowis a great time for the engineers, there is no need to rush cars to the market since few people are buying, rather they can spend time perfecting vehicles, then when people have money again you stick those vehicles into production and roll them onto dealer lots.

Plus in general the Asian 3 are much better that public relations and silent recalls, or avoiding recalls.

You make a good point, and I really hope this is how it works out.

My mom is in the market for a car, and I have been strongly trying to swing her towards a new 09 Malibu. She has the money and the resources and she could drive one home TODAY is she wanted, but she's just terrified at the market and what could happen if GM were to fold or declare bankruptcy in March. In fact, the current economic situation is what's keeping her from buying ANY car, foreign or domestic.

I don't think she's a single case, and it's really bad for GM or any other company that is trying to kick start sales.

In the 70's and 80's didn't foreign car makers build their engines with cnc machines while American cars engines were being built by hand still? Which lead to a better built engine in that time frame by the foreign car makers? But since the late 80's and now Amercan car makers use CNC machines to build their engines?

1. You are confusing being an American with being patriotic. They do not mean the same thing. We have several "Americans" who also hate America. Being a patriot means you support the country. Car purchases are the 2nd highest purchase for most people, after houses. When you buy a foreign brand vehicle, your profit goes to another country. That is not patriotic. You have these rights as an American citizen because patriotic men and women died for you at war. Keep that in mind.



Very well Said Tony.

I'd like to take this one step farther and say being a patriot means you love what your country stands for and represents.

I believe myself to be an American patriot. Not just because I live here and not just because everything I love and know is here. I am a patriot because My beliuefs are aligned with what this country represents as outlined by Documents such as the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I ,as well as many others, could live in a number of other countries but choose to live in the United States of America. Not because I'm stuck here or because this is where previous generations have lived here.

I have been to other countries I am aware of other countries political and ideological views. The United States best represents what I believe in.

Is the US of A a perfect place? Not in my opinion, but I don't pick up and leave or complain about how much it sucks. What I do is make sure I try to do my part to make it a little more like it is "supposed" to be.

I don't worship a political party or a news article and when I salute the flag it's not because of who is president or what a few people decided we should or should not do overseas. It's because I believe in Liberty and Democracy.

In the 70's and 80's didn't foreign car makers build their engines with cnc machines while American cars engines were being built by hand still? Which lead to a better built engine in that time frame by the foreign car makers? But since the late 80's and now Amercan car makers use CNC machines to build their engines?


I'm unaware exactly what machines where used to manufacture the parts of all the vehicles being made by manufacturers during the 70's and 80's.

What I can say is both japan and Germany had a more advanced manufacturing infrastruture than the USA due to the rebuilding efforts after WWII.

However, I can't say that was the reason for the disparity in quality at the time.

It seems to me American automakers being in the dominate position had become complacent and unwilling to move forward at a pace similar to the Japanese.

One of the best ways to enter a market is to make things cheaper and better than your established competitors.

Their hands were essentially forced to do that.

I call bullshit. They were forced to do nothing. There is always a choice even in business.


Based on unfair trade practices and tax benefits given to the import nameplates

What do you mean by unfair? Please elaborate and cite sources.

If you mean there were no tariffs on their goods the unfairness of that can be argued. If there taxes were lower then those of the big3 that would be unfair IMO.

(and of course the legacy costs (ya know, the same costs that also helped take great care of fellow AMERICANS)

Those Americans should be responsible for caring for themselves lilke the majority of Americans are. They are not entitled to the benefits they eceive. They get them as a result of negotiations. I do not feel America should HAVE to subsidize them through tax dollars as well as the money we've chosen to spend on GM products.

I will not complain about them getting those benefits in the first place.GM negotiated with the UAW and decided to pay them. If I was appalled by it I would have never bought a GM product. However, tax dollars should not be used to continue paying wages and benefits for those making more than others in the same field.


that those imports DID NOT have to carry),
The BIG 3 did not HAVE to carry those long term benefits costs either. They CHOSE to.


I notice that you conveniently didn't mention the Malibu though.
And I also know why, because it absolutely competes HEAD ON with Accord and Camry in all areas, especially value. Let's not forget the awesome Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan lines either.
So please, try again LOL. ;)


Have you driven the new Malibu? As a frequent traveller I get to spend alot of time in rental cars. I've been in alot of newer cars from both Domestic and Foreign manufacturers. I'be logged over a 500miles in the new Malibu and I can say that: The Malibu is a nice car.In my opinion Malibu competes favorably with Imports. The problem for GM is it's not so much better than an Accord or Camry that those loyal to those brands will switch.

I personally would buy a Malibu before an Accord because I'm used to the way GM vehicles feel and work.

As someone who enjoys working on my own vehicles it is important to me that I am more familiar with the internal workings of the GM vehicle.The fact that I can obtain GM replacement parts at a better cost than those of a Honda is a factor as well.

Also:I'll disagree with your comment that the Ford Fusion is awesome...

I call bullshit. They were forced to do nothing. There is always a choice even in business.



What do you mean by unfair? Please elaborate and cite sources.

If you mean there were no tariffs on their goods the unfairness of that can be argued. If there taxes were lower then those of the big3 that would be unfair IMO.



Those Americans should be responsible for caring for themselves lilke the majority of Americans are. They are not entitled to the benefits they eceive. They get them as a result of negotiations. I do not feel America should HAVE to subsidize them through tax dollars as well as the money we've chosen to spend on GM products.

I will not complain about them getting those benefits in the first place.GM negotiated with the UAW and decided to pay them. If I was appalled by it I would have never bought a GM product. However, tax dollars should not be used to continue paying wages and benefits for those making more than others in the same field.


The BIG 3 did not HAVE to carry those long term benefits costs either. They CHOSE to.




Have you driven the new Malibu? As a frequent traveller I get to spend alot of time in rental cars. I've been in alot of newer cars from both Domestic and Foreign manufacturers. I'be logged over a 500miles in the new Malibu and I can say that: The Malibu is a nice car.In my opinion Malibu competes favorably with Imports. The problem for GM is it's not so much better than an Accord or Camry that those loyal to those brands will switch.

I personally would buy a Malibu before an Accord because I'm used to the way GM vehicles feel and work.

As someone who enjoys working on my own vehicles it is important to me that I am more familiar with the internal workings of the GM vehicle.The fact that I can obtain GM replacement parts at a better cost than those of a Honda is a factor as well.

Also:I'll disagree with your comment that the Ford Fusion is awesome...

About your tax breaks comment. I know the Toyota truck plant recieved local tax breaks for moving into IN. I'm pretty sure American cars are still not sold in Japan. Seams unfair to me.

Their hands were essentially forced




I notice that you conveniently didn't mention the Malibu though.
And I also know why, because it absolutely competes HEAD ON with Accord and Camry in all areas, especially value. Let's not forget the awesome Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan lines either.
So please, try again LOL. ;)






I meant to say Malibu

I'm pretty sure American cars are still not sold in Japan. Seams unfair to me.

They allowed to be sold, but they are given an Import tax that adds a very large cost to the vehicle. Talk about unfair. I am all for forcing parallel taxes. Japan charges an extra (lets say) 20% to buy an American car...we add a 20% tax to Japanese cars sold here.

Now the public would never go for that, since that would be unfair...so why is it allowed in Japan? Hmm maybe because the Japanese industries like their monopoly. And US sheeple like their imports.

Forcing our domestic automakers out of a large population where they should be allowed to sell cars. I imagine after China gets the hang on producing cars they will do the same thing, but only after expanding into our market, of course.

Have you driven the new Malibu? As a frequent traveller I get to spend alot of time in rental cars. I've been in alot of newer cars from both Domestic and Foreign manufacturers. I'be logged over a 500miles in the new Malibu and I can say that: The Malibu is a nice car.In my opinion Malibu competes favorably with Imports. The problem for GM is it's not so much better than an Accord or Camry that those loyal to those brands will switch.

I personally would buy a Malibu before an Accord because I'm used to the way GM vehicles feel and work.

As someone who enjoys working on my own vehicles it is important to me that I am more familiar with the internal workings of the GM vehicle.The fact that I can obtain GM replacement parts at a better cost than those of a Honda is a factor as well.

Also:I'll disagree with your comment that the Ford Fusion is awesome...

I agree with the majority of what you said (don't really disagree with anything, but I'm not versed enough with international economics to get into that discussion), but I definitely agree with the highlighted parts. If somebody has been buying Honda/Toyota their whole life, and the Malibu is "as good as" the Camry/Accord, they aren't gonna switch. And if they are eventually going to switch, it's gonna be after these cars have been on the market for a long enough time to see how good their quality ACTUALLY is. And as far as the Fusion, I had the opportunity (misfortune?) to rent an automatic 4cyl version last year. While it is apparent that the overall quality is better than the Contour that it replaced, it still didn't seem like it was screwed together all that well. It didn't seem all that sporty (like the image they try to portray), and honestly for the boring 300 mile trip I was taking I would rather have taken my mom's "other car," the '02 Taurus that belonged to my grandmom. The Taurus made no pretense to being anything more than a boring mom-mobile. So while the new stuff is noticeably better than the old offerings, the Fusion and Malibu aren't gonna steal away lifelong Honda/Toyota customers anytime soon.

I meant to say MalibuSo then you ARE in fact saying that both the Camry and Accord are leaps and bounds, even light years better than the Malibu with your post below?:huh:The impala has a bland styling and does not compete with the likes of the Accord and Camry! Yes, it does sell well, but only due to rental cars and fleet sales. They came along way with the interior design, but overall the car has a bland look to it.Well then IMO you are being far too biased and brainwashed by Japanese manufacturer advertising/propaganda to possibly offer any objectively constructive input to this topic LOL. No offense. ;)
Malibu is clearly as good as Accord and Camry, in some ways it's even better.

They allowed to be sold, but they are given an Import tax that adds a very large cost to the vehicle. Talk about unfair. I am all for forcing parallel taxes. Japan charges an extra (lets say) 20% to buy an American car...we add a 20% tax to Japanese cars sold here.

Now the public would never go for that, since that would be unfair...so why is it allowed in Japan? Hmm maybe because the Japanese industries like their monopoly. And US sheeple like their imports.

Forcing our domestic automakers out of a large population where they should be allowed to sell cars. I imagine after China gets the hang on producing cars they will do the same thing, but only after expanding into our market, of course.I agree 100%.

You don't buy from my store then I won't buy from yours, it's that simple.
American business and trade has THRIVED on that concept for years and these guys want to rewrite the book and close/protect/shelter their precious markets?
And some of you people actually buy vehicles from these people and can still look at yourselves in the mirror?
Where's your pride people, be a man, grow some balls and just say 'no more' LOL.

The majority of Americans are pissed about the bailout going to GM and Chrysler. If they ever had a chance of converting the sheeple to drive Detroit iron I fear that this ruined whatever chances they had.

So then you ARE in fact saying that both the Camry and Accord are leaps and bounds, even light years better than the Malibu with your post below?:huh:Well then IMO you are being far too biased and brainwashed by Japanese manufacturer advertising/propaganda to possibly offer any objectively constructive input to this topic LOL. No offense. ;)
Malibu is clearly as good as Accord and Camry, in some ways it's even better.

The Malibu hasn't been out long enough to make any conclusive determination regarding reliability. Yes, the interior has been rated to be on par with its Japanese counterparts, but the exterior design is something to be desired.

I'm not brainwashed by anyone. The fact is, the Big 3 never produced anything I wanted or desired. I work hard for my money and I refuse to purchase a product strictly because its "American".

People say stereotypes are true and this holds true for automobiles as well.

The Malibu hasn't been out long enough to make any conclusive determination regarding reliability. Yes, the interior has been rated to be on par with its Japanese counterparts, but the exterior design is something to be desired.So do you find the Camry and/or the Accord to be stunningly beautiful vehicles, like award winning designs and such?
To me they're basic transportation with decent styling, nothing more nothing less...just like the Malibu. I just don't so see where they're so undeniably better looking than the domestic nameplate offerings. :confused:




I work hard for my money and I refuse to purchase a product strictly because its "American".Curious...do you support anything simply because it's "American"? Or does there always have to be something in it for you?
The military?
Educational system?
Farming/agriculture?
And if so, why is one ok but not the other?

The majority of Americans are pissed about the bailout going to GM and Chrysler. If they ever had a chance of converting the sheeple to drive Detroit iron I fear that this ruined whatever chances they had.That may be so but that's some seriously screwed up twisted logic on their part if it's actually true.
I'm not going to love/support my kids anymore because one of them cut the neighbor's tree down but then somehow managed to talk the neighbor into not pressing charges. :eyes:

If people are not going to buy a GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicle simply because of recent economic events/happenings in Washington then they too deserve all the residual bad/fallout that's coming to them as a result of these company's going under. :nono:
Thank heavens I'm already retired and financially independent, goes very well with my two GM vehicles and my CLEAR CONSCIENCE. :usa: :thumb:

I'm sorry, but I'm the kind of person that buys what suits my needs best. If it's American, so be it. If it's not, then so be it.

And I have a CLEAR CONSCIENCE :usa: :thumb:

I'm sorry, but I'm the kind of person that buys what suits my needs best. If it's American, so be it. If it's not, then so be it.

And I have a CLEAR CONSCIENCE :usa: :thumb:There are a lot of people that live by a similar line of thinking as well so you're probably not entirely wrong.

"I murder innocent people. If I get caught, so be it. If I don't, then so be it.
And I have a CLEAR CONSCIENCE."

See, virtually anyone can justify/exonerate themselves if they put their mind to it. :lol:

Yes, buying a car not from an American manufacturer is akin to murder :eyes:

Yes, buying a car not from an American manufacturer is akin to murder :eyes:I never said nor implied that...was only meant to display that a person can so easily talk/convince themselves into actually believing that they're doing the right thing even when in reality, they may not be.

Is you buying a Honda (a Japanese corporation) the wrong thing?
I can't honestly answer that, maybe it really isn't so bad.

But one thing I do know, I'm certainly not hurting GM (an American corporation) or America by buying a Corvette. :)

Ok, and what if GM didn't have the Corvette? What if the Corvette was a Honda, and the best thing GM had to offer was equivalent to a Miata? Would you then be the proud owner of a Chevrolet Miata, just because it's American?

Ok, and what if GM didn't have the Corvette? What if the Corvette was a Honda, and the best thing GM had to offer was equivalent to a Miata? Would you then be the proud owner of a Chevrolet Miata, just because it's American?Yes.
Chevrolet Miata. Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky etc if those were still my options.
Or I'd simply bail on that whole idea and buy a Mustang V8. :D

It's funny, everyone is so hell bent on standing by their principles at all costs when it comes to capitalism/free trade/avoiding anything that even remotely appears socialistic in nature (ie: government loans to car companies). But when someone has a principle that's just as important, in this case giving GM/Ford/Chrysler their business instead of another car company, that's suddenly not a good principle to have. :confused:

I'm sorry, but I'm the kind of person that buys what suits my needs best. If it's American, so be it. If it's not, then so be it.

And I have a CLEAR CONSCIENCE :usa: :thumb:

Congrats, you purchased a USED 2003 Honda. Used car sales help out an American company, the used vehicle lot you purchased it from. So, your position doesn't really hurt the USA nor does it help Japan.

And I'm OBVIOUSLY not concerned with "helping Japan." Hence why I said I buy what suits my needs best. If I wanted a full-sized SUV, I would probably get a Tahoe/Suburban. Midsized would probably be a Pathfinder or Murano. Half-ton truck would be one of the GMs, and then anything larger would probably end up being one of the TT 6.2 V8 Fords. Compact/midsize truck would be another V6/6spd Frontier. And then all the other segments go to other various manufacturers. So I have no allegiance to one brand. But like someone mentioned before, excess profit ends up as stockholder's equity, which goes to the stockholders of a company. Which could be anybody. And it's the little stuff that adds up; you ever think how much the electricity bill is for one of the Honda/Toyota/Nissan factories?

Ok, and what if GM didn't have the Corvette? What if the Corvette was a Honda, and the best thing GM had to offer was equivalent to a Miata? Would you then be the proud owner of a Chevrolet Miata, just because it's American?

They do, and its not.

What ifs are stupid.

The Malibu hasn't been out long enough to make any conclusive determination regarding reliability. Yes, the interior has been rated to be on par with its Japanese counterparts, but the exterior design is something to be desired.


1. The exterior design is your opinion, not that of CR, MT R&T and Me.
So you can chuck that out.

As for as reliabilty, I guess you don't know much about that drivetrain.
The 3.6 has been in use by GM since 04 in the CTS and was use for 3 years before being used here, in cars in Europe and Australia.

The 2.4 is an Ecotec, the same one a couple of different companies that use 4 Cyls for their specialized cars bought up as a replacements for the 4 Cyl Honda they were using. Like the Fisker Karma and the Ariel Atom.

The engine has recieved nothing but praise and top of the line reliabilty ratings since it's introduction 9 years ago.
If you are going to spew shit at least learn about it.

Next.

They do, and its not.

What ifs are stupid.
You can say they are stupid all you want, but it was a valid question. The reason a lot of people don't buy American is because there isn't something that is offered by an American manufacturer that fits their wants/needs (like the position I was in when I got my Frontier), so it's a perfectly valid question.

That may be so but that's some seriously screwed up twisted logic on their part if it's actually true.
I'm not going to love/support my kids anymore because one of them cut the neighbor's tree down but then somehow managed to talk the neighbor into not pressing charges. :eyes:

If people are not going to buy a GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicle simply because of recent economic events/happenings in Washington then they too deserve all the residual bad/fallout that's coming to them as a result of these company's going under. :nono:
Thank heavens I'm already retired and financially independent, goes very well with my two GM vehicles and my CLEAR CONSCIENCE. :usa: :thumb:

I agree, but you cant use this euphemism as GM isnt anyones child. My money is going to a new Stryker Blue G8. :usa: Oh, and fuck Toyota forgot that.

You can say they are stupid all you want, but it was a valid question. The reason a lot of people don't buy American is because there isn't something that is offered by an American manufacturer that fits their wants/needs (like the position I was in when I got my Frontier), so it's a perfectly valid question.

For anything forign made, there is an american product that can do it cheaper and better.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that a nissaan frontier is in a class of its own. LOL.

Hmmm there seem to be no American made mid size pickups, or full size, or compact cars, or sedans, or minivans, or mid size suvs, or full size suvs, or cargo vans, or luxury cars. LOL.

Nope there sure isnt any thing I can think of that would compete with a nissan frontier. Nope, no american made pickups of that size. Look if you buy forign, thats up to you. No need to hide it with a stupid excuse like there is nothing in its class american made.:chug:

For anything forign made, there is an american product that can do it cheaper and better.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that a nissaan frontier is in a class of its own. LOL.

Hmmm there seem to be no American made mid size pickups, or full size, or compact cars, or sedans, or minivans, or mid size suvs, or full size suvs, or cargo vans, or luxury cars. LOL.

Nope there sure isnt any thing I can think of that would compete with a nissan frontier. Nope, no american made pickups of that size. Look if you buy forign, thats up to you. No need to hide it with a stupid excuse like there is nothing in its class american made.:chug:

:D:chug:

For anything forign made, there is an american product that can do it cheaper and better.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that a nissaan frontier is in a class of its own. LOL.

Hmmm there seem to be no American made mid size pickups, or full size, or compact cars, or sedans, or minivans, or mid size suvs, or full size suvs, or cargo vans, or luxury cars. LOL.

Nope there sure isnt any thing I can think of that would compete with a nissan frontier. Nope, no american made pickups of that size. Look if you buy forign, thats up to you. No need to hide it with a stupid excuse like there is nothing in its class american made.:chug:

When I bought my Frontier I wanted a 4-door compact/midsize truck with good power, and a manual transmission. Not some wimpy V6 F-150, Ram, or Silverado/Sierra. The Frontier was 265hp/285tq, with a 6spd manual. It was also just under $21k. The nearest domestic competitor was the Colorado, which was $4k MORE money, had right around 45hp LESS, had LESS space on the inside, could handle LESS payload, and to top it all off... the weak-sauce 3.5l 5cyl was AUTOMATIC ONLY. The Frontier (at the time) was the ONLY truck in it's class to offer a manual transmission with the top engine. So yes it was, for my intents and purposes, in a class by itself. So much for an American product doing it cheaper and better :eyes:. And by the way, the only other truck in that class now that meets those criteria is the Tacoma ;).

Sorry... attaching "anti-American", "unpatriotic" or any other derogatory term to someone based solely on what automotive brand they purchase is extremely closed minded and I find it appalling that it's so easily thrown around.

I don't care what you clowns think. I'll never buy an import, namely Toyota or Honda, new or used.

The Malibu hasn't been out long enough to make any conclusive determination regarding reliability. Yes, the interior has been rated to be on par with its Japanese counterparts, but the exterior design is something to be desired.
Are you still comparing it to the Accord and Camry? Because if you are you clearly either made a typo, or have not seen the Malibu. The new Accord looks like frankenstien in a tuxedo, and the Camry looks like the same old boring gramda car its always been, except now its trying to look "hip" but failing miserably, like when you see people in their 70s trying to be "trendy".
http://www.2dayblog.com/images/2007/august/2008_accord_1.jpg
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Original_Photo/2008/04/08/1207682712_4901.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2249/2503586614_c18845c206.jpg?v=0

Are you still comparing it to the Accord and Camry? Because if you are you clearly either made a typo, or have not seen the Malibu. The new Accord looks like frankenstien in a tuxedo, and the Camry looks like the same old boring gramda car its always been, except now its trying to look "hip" but failing miserably, like when you see people in their 70s trying to be "trendy".Well said.
Styling/appearance/looks are always entirely subjective of course but I must agree with you on this one. :nod:

Well it seems like most of the people here are right minded, but it amazing how many 'people' are here that are willing to see GM burn. Seriously why would you buy a car from a corporation you don't support? Let alone come onto a forum site devoted to that product and corporation?

Are you still comparing it to the Accord and Camry? Because if you are you clearly either made a typo, or have not seen the Malibu. The new Accord looks like frankenstien in a tuxedo, and the Camry looks like the same old boring gramda car its always been, except now its trying to look "hip" but failing miserably, like when you see people in their 70s trying to be "trendy".


While I do agree that the new Malibu is impressive, I do actually like the new Accord. The coupe in particular, especially since it's available with a 6spd manual. The 268hp doesn't hurt either. Good enough for even Motor Trend to run a 14.0 @ 102.5mph
http://www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/firstdrive/2008/honda.accord.coupe/accord.coupe.340.jpg

While I do agree that the new Malibu is impressive, I do actually like the new Accord. The coupe in particular, especially since it's available with a 6spd manual. The 268hp doesn't hurt either. Good enough for even Motor Trend to run a 14.0 @ 102.5mph
http://www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/firstdrive/2008/honda.accord.coupe/accord.coupe.340.jpg

So that makes it the second fastest Honda ever right? So it goes NSX...then 2009 Accord?


Still sad if you ask me. Even the S2000's are painfully slow.

Painfully slow? I wouldn't go that far. They're capable of high 13s and 100-102mph trapspeeds.

Painfully slow? I wouldn't go that far. They're capable of high 13s and 100-102mph trapspeeds.

That's painfully slow for a sports car.

That's painfully slow for a sports car.Especially a $35k - $38k+ one.

Painfully slow? I wouldn't go that far. They're capable of high 13s and 100-102mph trapspeeds.

I guess I am just spoiled with 13.2@109 when my car was stock.

I guess I should just expect less performance from foreign cars. My mistake. (to be fair, a stock Mustang isn't much better...I must be spoiled).


Edit: Ironic...just noticed you owned a Mustang and now own a S2000. My appologies.

Cute :eyes:. I wish I had a turbocharged Camaro SS so I could down-talk everybody else's cars. You can call it "painfully slow" if you want, but it was the fastest/cheapest in it's class when it was released 9 years ago, and has been competitive enough to be at/near the top of the class now. I'm sorry if the money I make goes to my lease payment, bills, and books, instead of an uber-fast car. I enjoy driving my car. You don't like it, that's fine with me. Pitifully slow, by the way, is the 177hp $29k base Sky. The Redline seems to be a good car though, but I'm actually going to reserve my judgement until I drive one. Novel idea, huh?

While I do agree that the new Malibu is impressive, I do actually like the new Accord. The coupe in particular, especially since it's available with a 6spd manual. The 268hp doesn't hurt either. Good enough for even Motor Trend to run a 14.0 @ 102.5mph
http://www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/firstdrive/2008/honda.accord.coupe/accord.coupe.340.jpg

The numbers and interior are nice, but the car is still caveman ugly and wrong wheel drive.

Yeah it's FWD, but so is every other car in it's class... and apparently it handles well enough where the only thing you're really missing is the ability to do donuts.

Cute :eyes:. I wish I had a turbocharged Camaro SS so I could down-talk everybody else's cars. You can call it "painfully slow" if you want, but it was the fastest/cheapest in it's class when it was released 9 years ago, and has been competitive enough to be at/near the top of the class now. I'm sorry if the money I make goes to my lease payment, bills, and books, instead of an uber-fast car. I enjoy driving my car. You don't like it, that's fine with me. Pitifully slow, by the way, is the 177hp $29k base Sky. The Redline seems to be a good car though, but I'm actually going to reserve my judgement until I drive one. Novel idea, huh?

I didn't mean to down-talk your cars. I respect the S2K immensely, and it would leave me for dead on a twisty road course. But that being said, I didn't build my SS to do that. And your making it seem like I have dropped 20k in mods in my car, when its more like 7.

I have driven a number of imports (Rx-7s, S2Ks, 350Zs). What I am saying is that for it to be a sports car or muscle car the car should be fast. They relatively aren't. The S2K, 350Zs, Civic Si's, Integra's, Preludes, and anything else just isn't all that "sports car" to me.

I also group to Sky, the Solstice, Cobalt SS, Focus SVT in that catagory to. Just to be clear I am not just import hating.


The stock V8 Mustang...that is really a conundrum. It looks the part of a muscle car, sounds the part of a muscle car, but just is slow performance wise of playing the part of a modern muscle car.

Mustang Cobra's? Different story. But your paying out the ass to get it.

By definition in the 60's a muscle car was a cheap car with a huge engine. The base Mustang GT is a well priced car with a weak engine.



But regardless, it is an argument of opinions. I agree to disagree. :chug:

Ok, well I can respect an agreement to disagree :chug:. But technically (by the purist definition) a "muscle car" is an intermediate car (midsize) with a big engine. So Mustangs/F-bodies never really fell into that category. It was more of a Chevelle/Challenger category. But because they were muscular, the original definition kinda got twisted to fit more cars.

Sorry... attaching "anti-American", "unpatriotic" or any other derogatory term to someone based solely on what automotive brand they purchase is extremely closed minded and I find it appalling that it's so easily thrown around.


Thank you. The idiocy being displayed by some in this thread is appalling and mind-numbing. There are some Americans who prefer foreign name plates, there are others who prefer domestic name plates. It's about choice and freedom to buy whatever you want as it suits you. You have NO obligation to buy an American vehicle because you are an American. As an American you are blessed with the freedom to buy what you like or want regardless of any reason.

Seems to me like all the domestic company nut swingers are trying to blame other people for their own brand failures. If it was a foreign company on U.S. soil going under, you same people would be elated even though their failure would affect American lives. I guess those Americans working at those Toyota/Hyundai/Honda plants are not really "true" patriotic Americans either. Get off that "patriotic" soap box. :gtfo:

The big 3 have no one else but themselves to blame. They made their own bed, now they get to sleep in it. It's unfortunate for the people who had to depend on them....but that's business and how a free market should work.

I'm glad to see Toyota is not invincible, as the media has been putting them in a huge spotlight recently to embarrass the big 3. Now their glory shows signs of reality.

couldn't agree more

The big 3 have no one else but themselves to blame. They made their own bed, now they get to sleep in it. It's unfortunate for the people who had to depend on them....but that's business and how a free market should work.

Please enlighten us as to how its only the Bi3 3's fault.

Thank you. The idiocy being displayed by some in this thread is appalling and mind-numbing. There are some Americans who prefer foreign name plates, there are others who prefer domestic name plates. It's about choice and freedom to buy whatever you want as it suits you. You have NO obligation to buy an American vehicle because you are an American. As an American you are blessed with the freedom to buy what you like or want regardless of any reason.

Seems to me like all the domestic company nut swingers are trying to blame other people for their own brand failures. If it was a foreign company on U.S. soil going under, you same people would be elated even though their failure would affect American lives. I guess those Americans working at those Toyota/Hyundai/Honda plants are not really "true" patriotic Americans either. Get off that "patriotic" soap box. :gtfo:

The big 3 have no one else but themselves to blame. They made their own bed, now they get to sleep in it. It's unfortunate for the people who had to depend on them....but that's business and how a free market should work.

Tell you what, I spent an evening at the Local Vets home giving out gifts and cookies this season.
I say buy what you want. No one can tell you different. I wouldn't sleep well at night with an Import name plate in the
driveway, but that is me.

Those guys at the home would have flipped if they read that coming from someone born here in the states.
I just guess it is a different time now. I had a nice conversation with a WWII vet about that. It was very different then what I hear
on here.

Tell you what, I spent an evening at the Local Vets home giving out gifts and cookies this season.
I say buy what you want. No one can tell you different. I wouldn't sleep well at night with an Import name plate in the
driveway, but that is me.

Those guys at the home would have flipped if they read that coming from someone born here in the states.
I just guess it is a different time now. I had a nice conversation with a WWII vet about that. It was very different then what I hear
on here.

Well I guess he wouldn't like the fact that your Equinox engine is made in China and your trans is made in Japan.

I know where that stuff is made.
I also know Honda, Toyota, Nissan or BMW didn't design or develop it, so they didn't get the profit from me buying it.
I explained that to him, and guess what he didn't like it but was glad that I didn't send my money to a foreign car company.
The guy is old not stupid.

Tell you what, I spent an evening at the Local Vets home giving out gifts and cookies this season.
I say buy what you want. No one can tell you different. I wouldn't sleep well at night with an Import name plate in the
driveway, but that is me.

Those guys at the home would have flipped if they read that coming from someone born here in the states.
I just guess it is a different time now. I had a nice conversation with a WWII vet about that. It was very different then what I hear
on here.

Well its alot different to a person who has actually put his life on the line for this country and all it represents than it would be to a person who has a more classroom view of our liberties. There are so many people who have never had to do anything for this country and just assume that it will always be the way it is, they have become so removed from reality that they believe the country is responsible for the well-being of its inhabitants rather than the people being responsible for the well-being of the country.
Im no liberal by any stretch but even Kennedy got it right-"My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what can you do for your country...It is now the moment ...to recall what our country has done for each of us, and to ask ourselves what we can do for our country in return."
Too many people in this country have never heard, or do not remember these words.
In the context of this argument I would say that in order to honor our country we ALL need to buy AMERICAN. Everyone here has the right to buy what they want, but if you think that sending American dollars to another country isn't hurting our nation you are,and let me put this in no uncertain terms, an Idiot/Imbecile/Moron or dreadfully ignorant.
People, put America first.

I know where that stuff is made.
I also know Honda, Toyota, Nissan or BMW didn't design or develop it, so they didn't get the profit from me buying it.

How do you know this? If they are building the motor/trans, their parts are most likely being supplied with China made parts.

I would feel more comfortable as an American, purchasing a truck that is built in SanAntonio(Tundra) by American workers, than a GM name plate that has China/Korea building one

How do you know this? If they are building the motor/trans, their parts are most likely being supplied with China made parts.

I would feel more comfortable as an American, purchasing a truck that is built in SanAntonio(Tundra) by American workers, than a GM name plate that has China/Korea building one

Agreed, but your forgetting the fact that while the assembly line may be in san antonio, the dollars you spend eventually work their way back to Tojo. You are supporting a corporation that is based in a foreign country, therefore supporting a foreign economy.

Agreed, but your forgetting the fact that while the assembly line may be in san antonio, the dollars you spend eventually work their way back to Tojo. You are supporting a corporation that is based in a foreign country, therefore supporting a foreign economy.

But the point is to provide American jobs! And this is where GM, Ford and Dodge are lacking by sending 1000's of jobs overseas! Furthermore, the money goes back to the shareholders.

Agreed, but your forgetting the fact that while the assembly line may be in san antonio, the dollars you spend eventually work their way back to Tojo. You are supporting a corporation that is based in a foreign country, therefore supporting a foreign economy.

In reality none of the autocompanies are "X Country Companies". The Big 3 are global auto companies, with interests in all parts of the global. They've proven themselves willing to use the global supply chain, be it German parts from suppliers like Bosch or Asian parts from people like DENSO. The profits go back to the stockholders, who happen to be anyone in the world with money and the ability to purchase stock on a stock market, be it the London Exchange, the New York Exchange, the Kala Lumpar Exchange, or even by logging in to E-Trade via their satelitte phone in freaking Nepal or somewhere. Hell I used profits off some of my Asian 3 stocks to pay for part of my GXP.

That being said the Big Three have shown themselves to be more North American focused, the bulk of Big Three management and engineering is located in North America, while the Asian 3 have the bulk of their white collar workers in Japan. So you can consider the Big Three more American, but they hold no special loyalty to America. They have ties and existing infrastructure which makes it economically beneficial for them to stay in America, but when it makes economic sense they'll shut down the Grand Prix Plant up in Ontario and start rolling G8s off the boat from overseas. Or bringing Aveos in from Korea.

At the end of the day the Big Three CEOs are concerned about the global health their company. Right now America is the world's largest car market, so our market is a huge concern to them, but they also care about the merging Chinese market etc.

"Buy American, support American workers" is just a slogan at the end of the day. My window sticker said 80% American and Canadian when I bought my car. I have no doubt that if it makes GM money future window stickers will say "70% American/Canadian" and trend downwards from there.
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This was well put earlier in the thread

Tell you what, I spent an evening at the Local Vets home giving out gifts and cookies this season.
I say buy what you want. No one can tell you different. I wouldn't sleep well at night with an Import name plate in the
driveway, but that is me.

Those guys at the home would have flipped if they read that coming from someone born here in the states.
I just guess it is a different time now. I had a nice conversation with a WWII vet about that. It was very different then what I hear
on here.True.
See, on here, if someone dares knock the U.S. military (which I personally find just as appalling as knocking the U.S. auto industry by the way) or points out some of the mistakes that it's made in the past then they get blasted and are called unpatriotic.
But yet when one of us gives someone some crap for constantly ragging on/not supporting the U.S auto industry, huge American corporations/icons that employee vast amounts of American citizens who also happen to generate tax dollars that help support said military, then suddenly it's ok?:huh: :confused:
The U.S. military is also a business and many U.S. businesses share the principles of a military as well, why is it so very patriotic to support one yet not the other?

Well its alot different to a person who has actually put his life on the line for this country and all it represents than it would be to a person who has a more classroom view of our liberties. There are so many people who have never had to do anything for this country and just assume that it will always be the way it is, they have become so removed from reality that they believe the country is responsible for the well-being of its inhabitants rather than the people being responsible for the well-being of the country.
Im no liberal by any stretch but even Kennedy got it right-"My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what can you do for your country...It is now the moment ...to recall what our country has done for each of us, and to ask ourselves what we can do for our country in return."
Too many people in this country have never heard, or do not remember these words.
In the context of this argument I would say that in order to honor our country we ALL need to buy AMERICAN. Everyone here has the right to buy what they want, but if you think that sending American dollars to another country isn't hurting our nation you are,and let me put this in no uncertain terms, an Idiot/Imbecile/Moron or dreadfully ignorant.
People, put America first.:werd:x 100,000 :thumb:

True.
See, on here, if someone dares knock the U.S. military (which I personally find just as appalling as knocking the U.S. auto industry by the way) or points out some of the mistakes that it's made in the past then you get blasted and are called unpatriotic.
But yet when one of us gives someone some crap for constantly ragging on/not supporting the Big 3, huge American corporations/icons that employee vast amounts of American citizens who also happen to generate tax dollars that help support said military, then suddenly it's ok?:huh: :confused:
The U.S. military is also a business and many U.S. businesses share the principles of a military as well, why is so very patriotic to support one yet not the other?

Because the Big 3 aren't fighting for us

Because the Big 3 aren't fighting for usThey're not? :confused:
The VAST tax dollars they generate (yeah I know, Toyota/BMW/Honda etc. generate some as well) aren't going towards helping fight for you?
They have NOTHING to with the product development/R&D of military equipment/vehicles used in helping defend us?
How about jobs for servicemen/servicewomen when they get back here/are discharged? Oh nevermind scratch that, I forgot, Toyota will gladly higher them all, right? :eyes:

Maybe they're not fighting for you but I sure was happy to have the U.S auto industry in my corner paying taxes and employing fellow Americans all these years. :usa:

How do you know this? If they are building the motor/trans, their parts are most likely being supplied with China made parts.

I would feel more comfortable as an American, purchasing a truck that is built in SanAntonio(Tundra) by American workers, than a GM name plate that has China/Korea building one
That bed bounce can't be comfortable.

But the point is to provide American jobs! And this is where GM, Ford and Dodge are lacking by sending 1000's of jobs overseas! Furthermore, the money goes back to the shareholders.

As your post count rises, it seem you get dumber and dumber. Any single one of the big 3 employ more Americans than all the Japanese automakers combined. If you are going to come in this thread please provide some shred of evidence to back up your claims.

But the point is to provide American jobs! And this is where GM, Ford and Dodge are lacking by sending 1000's of jobs overseas! Furthermore, the money goes back to the shareholders.


Your such an import nutswinger, I dont know why you even post here. Look dumbass, if those Toyota plants were not there making Japan money, they would be GM/FORD/Chrysler plants there supplying us with jobs and keeping the money state side. They only reason your beloved nippon companies build cars here is because it saves them import taxes so its cheaper to sell it here. You think they give a fuck about Americans?

Because the Big 3 aren't fighting for us


http://www.4wdonline.com/Mil/GM/GM.html
http://www.gmfleet.com/government/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/opinion/16clark.html
http://www.gmmilitarydiscount.com/

Feel stupid yet.

Did you ever notice how in Japan, imported vehicles dont sell for shit. Thats because they have pride in their country and its products. Not because they are the best....thats bullshit.

They only reason your beloved nippon companies build cars here is because it saves them import taxes so its cheaper to sell it here. You think they give a fuck about Americans?Exactly.






Did you ever notice how in Japan, imported vehicles dont sell for shit. Thats because they have pride in their country and its products.Exactly.
Isn't it ironic that here we have Americans who practically worship :hail: ALL all that is Japan except for when it comes to that one so very important aspect that those good people tend to possess...a sense of nationalism, pride and support when it comes to industry and corporations.

These American citizens love their Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans and almost everything that comes with owning them but they simply cannot grasp that one critical piece of the puzzle and see the bigger picture. :nono:
I'd actually be ashamed to let the people of Japan see that side of myself, I'll bet they're laughing their asses off at the weakness of the 'Asian vehicle buying' American public with their obvious total lack of self esteem and personal pride.

Like I've said many times... I buy what suits my needs best. If the Colorado hadn't been underpowered, overpriced, and had the right equipment, I probably would have bought one instead of a Frontier. But I'm not gonna pay $4k more for something that I don't want, just because it's made by an American corporation. The Japanese buy Japanese (and Germans buy German) because in their lifetimes they have been told (and shown) that they make among the best products for the money. And the 80s and much of the 90s didn't show them any different. If an alien came down to Earth and was asked to choose between a '98 Accord/Camry/Maxima or a '98 Taurus/Malibu, do you honestly think they would pick the Taurus or the Malibu? So it's not the current (very good) offerings from Ford/GM that are the problem; it's the stuff they were making in the 80s/90s that basically everyone can agree was well behind the curve. And it takes time for stuff like that to leave people's minds.

So you bought a slow 4 seater 2001 coupe and then you bought a slow 2 seater 2003 coupe? Well if slow suited your needs you nailed that perfectly.

BTW a 98 accord/camry/maxima aint all that and a bowl of rice either.

If you think the Japanese really think they make the best products and thats the only reason they buy them, your naive

How come everyone always conveniantly leaves out the Grand Prix, Century and Regal.
All nice cars that were priced the same as mentioned in V6 and loaded trims.

So you bought a slow 4 seater 2001 coupe and then you bought a slow 2 seater 2003 coupe? Well if slow suited your needs you nailed that perfectly.

BTW a 98 accord/camry/maxima aint all that and a bowl of rice either.

If you think the Japanese really think they make the best products and thats the only reason they buy them, your naive
I'm not even gonna bother explaining why/how I got what I have had. And I also never said that Japanese cars were the end-all be-all. I said that in some segments, they are gonna be the best buy for the money. And the '98 Accord/Camry/Maxima aren't "all that and a bowl of rice," but I'd take any of them over a Taurus/Malibu any day of the week. And what if you wanted a 5spd? Like I said, there are just some segments (or parts of segments) that there just isn't an American car/truck offered that fits the bill.
How come everyone always conveniantly leaves out the Grand Prix, Century and Regal.
All nice cars that were priced the same as mentioned in V6 and loaded trims.

Grand Prix is ok, but the ones I've been in (older models) scream "rental car." Yeah, the GTP is pretty quick, but they just feel cheap. And the Century is ok if you're 50 years old, or don't want any excitement in an otherwise-boring commute. The Regal is a cross between the two. There was a fairly-significant portion of that segment that GM and Ford just flat didn't pay attention to for a very long time. And I'm not the only one that thinks so. GM and Ford realized that a lot of the cars they sold were behind the curve, hence the dramatic changes they've been making. The Fusion V6 is now offered with a manual, as is the G6 (atleast the coupe). And they are both FAR better than the cars they replaced. And they are now being compared to the Nissan/Honda/Toyota competition and finally being placed in the same league. Which means that before... they weren't as good. Ford/GM/Mopar still doesn't offer a compact/midsize truck with the "good" engine and a manual transmission. So that's another segment that is being ignored. Between Ford/Dodge/Chevrolet/GMC, you would think that somebody would have thought to offer a manual transmission in a high trim-level compact truck. Or how to fit a manual transmission to the Grand Prix. Recognizing the shortcomings of a car/company doesn't mean you hate it, or that you're unpatriotic. That's ridiculous. It just means that you realize (like they obviously have) areas where they can expand and improve.

But the point is to provide American jobs! And this is where GM, Ford and Dodge are lacking by sending 1000's of jobs overseas! Furthermore, the money goes back to the shareholders.

GM, Ford and Dodge lacking in supporting American Jobs?? GM by itself currently supports more American jobs than all of the foreign car companies combined. And if you talk about suppliers, which constitutes an even larger job base, the Japanese, Germans and Koreans support very few American jobs, their supplier base is back in their motherland! They know how important it is to support their jobs, not ours!

How come everyone always conveniantly leaves out the Grand Prix, Century and Regal.
All nice cars that were priced the same as mentioned in V6 and loaded trims.Good point...they really were very good cars for that mid size FWD four door segment. :nod:

I will admit that I am not quite in my perfect state of mind while posting this.:chug: I do belive that there are historical accounts of what is happening here. This nation was founded on a free market economy, based on principles laid out by our founding fathers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire#Economic_and_political_theory) As this in theory sounds foolproof, we can see early on that this is not always what is best for the country. (http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-149900) It is not out of the question to use tarrifs and other economic import hindrances to protect american interests, and to keep american dollars in america. I am not an economist, but am familiar with the history of this and it seems to parralel (sp?) what is going on now. If the imported product can be offered at a lower price than a similar quality domestic than the goverment should protect the domestic product, based on the simple fact that a country that exports more that it imports will have a surplus. It is all very basic. If anyone has more knowledge on this subject I encourage them to retort, I am not an expert!

I will admit that I am not quite in my perfect state of mind while posting this.:chug: I do belive that there are historical accounts of what is happening here. This nation was founded on a free market economy, based on principles laid out by our founding fathers. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire#Economic_and_political_theory) As this in theory sounds foolproof, we can see early on that this is not always what is best for the country. (http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-149900) It is not out of the question to use tarrifs and other economic import hindrances to protect american interests, and to keep american dollars in america. I am not an economist, but am familiar with the history of this and it seems to parralel (sp?) what is going on now. If the imported product can be offered at a lower price than a similar quality domestic than the goverment should protect the domestic product, based on the simple fact that a country that exports more that it imports will have a surplus. It is all very basic. If anyone has more knowledge on this subject I encourage them to retort, I am not an expert!:werd: I agree. :thumb:

Japan does it, and it works quite well for them, so why can't we?

Because the Big 3 aren't fighting for us

GM has 3 or 4 factories/assembly facilities/research facilities in NY alone. How much do you think they pay in taxes, seriously, all the import drivers would be the first to complain when their taxes sky rocket because GM went under and closed 4 big tax paying facilities. I'm also a US citizen and own a good deal of GM stock, so i guess your statement about the profit going to shareholders would be me....right :confused: and I live where:confused:

You keep referring to built in the US, you misunderstand, built vs. assembled are two different things. The majority of the parts in your Tundra are assembled overseas, shipped to Texas and reassembled as a whole to reduce import costs for yota.

The issue I've seen here that isn't very consistent is WHY some people refuse to buy "imports." I had a discussion with another person a couple weeks ago that seemed very confused. It was in respect to electronics, and he said he did his best to buy items that were made by US-based companies. And then he said he wanted to do his part to protect American jobs. So when I asked him whether he would rather buy an American-made TV from a foreign company that's made better, or a foreign-made TV from a domestic company that is of lower quality, he couldn't give me an answer.

I've seen similar things in this thread; I understand that some people will never buy certain things, but some people can't seem to give a concrete reason why. First it's that imports are weak/underpowered/blah blah. But then if they're at the top of their class it moves to a different reason, like too expensive. But then if they're cheaper than the domestic alternative, it moves to being foreign-made. But if it's made in America, it moves to the manufacturer not providing ENOUGH US jobs, or the profit going to another country. So then when it's brought up that foreign manufacturers are providing more and more jobs to this country, and the "profit" goes to shareholders, somebody will say that the jobs are only in this country to provide them with tax breaks and the wrong people own the stock. And as far as something going on in Japan being good enough for us, when did we start basing what is ok in this country off of what other countries do? Unless that's just yet another situation that is being turned around to fit an argument...

The issue I've seen here that isn't very consistent is WHY some people refuse to buy "imports." I had a discussion with another person a couple weeks ago that seemed very confused. It was in respect to electronics, and he said he did his best to buy items that were made by US-based companies. And then he said he wanted to do his part to protect American jobs. So when I asked him whether he would rather buy an American-made TV from a foreign company that's made better, or a foreign-made TV from a domestic company that is of lower quality, he couldn't give me an answer.

I've seen similar things in this thread; I understand that some people will never buy certain things, but some people can't seem to give a concrete reason why. First it's that imports are weak/underpowered/blah blah. But then if they're at the top of their class it moves to a different reason, like too expensive. But then if they're cheaper than the domestic alternative, it moves to being foreign-made. But if it's made in America, it moves to the manufacturer not providing ENOUGH US jobs, or the profit going to another country. So then when it's brought up that foreign manufacturers are providing more and more jobs to this country, and the "profit" goes to shareholders, somebody will say that the jobs are only in this country to provide them with tax breaks and the wrong people own the stock. And as far as something going on in Japan being good enough for us, when did we start basing what is ok in this country off of what other countries do? Unless that's just yet another situation that is being turned around to fit an argument...


I do my best to buy U.S. made/ owned products. Hence all my cars are from American companies. If it costs a few bucks more for an American product, I dont give a fuck, because I take pride in shit thats built here.

Now to home electronics....there is no fucking way I am going to buy an RCA stereo for my home theather.....because they come nowhere close to meeting my needs at all. So for products that are not available from domestic companies, no shit I will buy them from who ever gives me the best bang for my buck.

You can make up any excuse you want. There is nothing wrong with buying a forign made car, your just helping another country grow and shrinking ours. Its a fact, nothing you can say or do about it.

It cool though to swing of Toyota and Hondas nuts. The media has been doing it for years now.

I'm not swinging from anything. I've owned Japanese and American cars. It all depends on what I want and need from a car. And for the record, I'm not talking "a few bucks more." In my case, it was $4k for a semi-comparable domestic offering. So I got a Frontier instead of a (weak) Colorado or Ranger. The Big 3 are about 15 years late making cars that a large part of the population actually wants, and they wonder why people are slow to jump back on the bandwagon.

True, because UNLIKE IN THE U.S. the loyal and supportive citizens of Japan DO support their own so the likes of Toyota and Honda are in a decent financial position.
Not to mention that their government does so as well.

Couldn't agree with you more. Go figure we launch a series of nuclear weapons on their cities, devastate both. Only to get crushed in our own domestic auto market.

The issue I've seen here that isn't very consistent is WHY some people refuse to buy "imports." I had a discussion with another person a couple weeks ago that seemed very confused. It was in respect to electronics, and he said he did his best to buy items that were made by US-based companies. And then he said he wanted to do his part to protect American jobs. So when I asked him whether he would rather buy an American-made TV from a foreign company that's made better, or a foreign-made TV from a domestic company that is of lower quality, he couldn't give me an answer.

I've seen similar things in this thread; I understand that some people will never buy certain things, but some people can't seem to give a concrete reason why. First it's that imports are weak/underpowered/blah blah. But then if they're at the top of their class it moves to a different reason, like too expensive. But then if they're cheaper than the domestic alternative, it moves to being foreign-made. But if it's made in America, it moves to the manufacturer not providing ENOUGH US jobs, or the profit going to another country. So then when it's brought up that foreign manufacturers are providing more and more jobs to this country, and the "profit" goes to shareholders, somebody will say that the jobs are only in this country to provide them with tax breaks and the wrong people own the stock. And as far as something going on in Japan being good enough for us, when did we start basing what is ok in this country off of what other countries do? Unless that's just yet another situation that is being turned around to fit an argument...


1.) Because I believe in the American dream. I strive for us to retain American money in house. I prefer less controversial styling cues, and rwd offerings. I prefer larger, quicker cars, that have American blood and sweet poured into them.

I believe that any country that has threatened our security at any time (especially unprovoked) can eat a dick. I believe that sweatshop labor wages will always be immoral, even if they are eventually settled and improved.

2.) I take the Japanese auto invasion in this country, as a direct example of "taking advantage" of a free market economy. (In japan, which I have been to), they rip off everyone of our American trade marked and copyrighted materials without any hesitation or remorse, which I find to be a disgusting infringement on the civil opportunities we have granted them on our own soil.

Even if there are plants and factories in America producing Honda's and Toyota's, how much of their revenue to honestly believe stays here? What small decimal of what they make off of sales and our hard work do you think stays here and improves our financial situation.

America has a long history of assisting those that need our help, whether it be from natural disasters, invasions, genocides, starvation, war, etc when have Toyota or Honda ever contributed to us in our time of need? In fact when have any of those countries lifted a finger if it weren't in their best interest?

(even if you do find valid examples, I refuse to change my tune)

Because I was brought home from the hospital in my father's 1979 Formula, it was what started my whole love affair with cars, especially cool, quick ones. I restored that car and drove it throughout high school, I will never forget the joy it brought me. I didn't just drive it, I enjoyed every minute of it, and people complimented me on it all the time. How many Honda drivers have that kind of enthusiasm and passion for their vehicle?

1.) Because I believe in the American dream. I strive for us to retain American money in house.1 I prefer less controversial styling cues, and rwd offerings. I prefer larger, quicker cars, that have American blood and sweet poured into them.

2I believe that any country that has threatened our security at any time (especially unprovoked) can eat a dick. I believe that sweatshop labor wages will always be immoral, even if they are eventually settled and improved.

2.) I take the Japanese auto invasion in this country, as a direct example of "taking advantage" of a free market economy. (In japan, which I have been to), they rip off everyone of our American trade marked and copyrighted materials without any hesitation or remorse, which I find to be a disgusting infringement on the civil opportunities we have granted them on our own soil.

3Even if there are plants and factories in America producing Honda's and Toyota's, how much of their revenue to honestly believe stays here? What small decimal of what they make off of sales and our hard work do you think stays here and improves our financial situation.

America has a long history of assisting those that need our help, whether it be from natural disasters, invasions, genocides, starvation, war, etc when have Toyota or Honda ever contributed to us in our time of need? In fact when have any of those countries lifted a finger if it weren't in their best interest?

6(even if you do find valid examples, I refuse to change my tune)

4Because I was brought home from the hospital in my father's 1979 Formula, it was what started my whole love affair with cars, especially cool, quick ones. I restored that car and drove it throughout high school, I will never forget the joy it brought me. I didn't just drive it, I enjoyed every minute of it, and people complimented me on it all the time. 5How many Honda drivers have that kind of enthusiasm and passion for their vehicle?

1) And if that isn't the case? Take my car for example; In 2003, there was no domestic offering in that entire class. It's RWD, and the styling is far from controversial. And American vehicles are definitely not always "larger and quicker."
2) So England, France, Spain, Portugal, Mexico, Russia, Japan... even though they are ALL our allies now, they can all "eat a dick?" Boy am I glad you don't run the country.
3) I'd imagine a fairly significant portion of the profit stays here. There are tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of people employed by foreign manufacturers in this country, and they have a whole infrastructure here which amounts to almost a seperate company. Toyota/Honda/BMW/etc. of North America employs THOUSANDS of people here, with their own CEOs and executive hierarchy. They make significant amounts of money, as do the workers at the factories and dealerships. So I would imagine (unless you can prove otherwise) that a large portion of the money they make stays here in some form.
4) And that's good for you; my mom had a '94 Corvette when I was 14, and that's what I learned to drive on. Which started my love for RWD, torque, and Corvettes in general. But it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy other things.
5) I do. I love driving my car, and I loved driving my Integra. And I imagine most other S2000 and NSX drivers feel the same way.
6) And that's what it all boils down to. I keep an open mind about a lot of the stuff that goes on in the world. I weigh options, and make informed decisions. You, on the other hand, have an opinion. And damnit, it's right. Even if somebody can prove it wrong.

1) And if that isn't the case? Take my car for example; In 2003, there was no domestic offering in that entire class. It's RWD, and the styling is far from controversial. And American vehicles are definitely not always "larger and quicker."
2) So England, France, Spain, Portugal, Mexico, Russia(when did any of these countries attack American soil?), Japan... even though they are ALL our allies now, they can all "eat a dick?" Boy am I glad you don't run the country.
3) I'd imagine(what you imagine and fact are far deviations from each other) a fairly significant portion of the profit stays here. There are tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of people employed by foreign manufacturers in this country, and they have a whole infrastructure here which amounts to almost a seperate company. Toyota/Honda/BMW/etc. of North America employs THOUSANDS of people here, with their own CEOs and executive hierarchy. They make significant amounts of money, as do the workers at the factories and dealerships. Define significant So I would imagine (unless you can prove otherwise) that a large portion of the money they make stays here in some form.
4) And that's good for you; my mom had a '94 Corvette when I was 14, and that's what I learned to drive on. Which started my love for RWD, torque, and Corvettes in general. But it doesn't mean that I can't enjoy other things.
5) I do. I love driving my car, and I loved driving my Integra. And I imagine most other S2000 and NSX drivers feel the same way.
6) And that's what it all boils down to. I keep an open mind about a lot of the stuff that goes on in the world. I weigh options, and make informed decisions. You, on the other hand, have an opinion. And damnit, it's right. Even if somebody can prove it wrong.

Listen up guy, the NSX, S2000, and even the integra are not muscle cars, they are far from practical and bare no weight in this conversation. My response to your post I quoted originally was not an attack on you, it was as you said "backing up my logic in not buying an import". I don't want to run the country, and never will, and I guess you can thank Christ, buddah, Zeus, or any other true or false prophet your monkey ass might worship. (Now I am giving you some shit)

You started off in here as a mustang owner. That's fine, it is always useful and interesting to hear the other sides story, get feedback argue, etc. however now that you own a Honda, you really have alienated yourself from the muscle car, the segment, and perhaps this website. I don't care about your Honda, your mom, or her corvette.

You pretty much beckoned me to respond to your brutal calling out that "people who don't buy imports, have no real reason to not buy imports"
My Grandfather, and two great uncles, died and lost numerous friends in the pearl harbor attack. So when I say Countries that attack America (especially those that attack unprovoked can eat a dick) I say it with founded conviction.

I have no racial prejudice if that is the point you are trying to beat around, I just choose not to buy imports because I don't like their colorful histories, array of vehicles. Until any of those companies offer legitimate muscle cars, I will continually maintain these feelings of non-commitment, and less appreciation for all non-domestic automobiles.

You can jump ship to imports, which you obviously already have. And yet you continue to persist on maintaining active participation on Ls1tech...hmmm. Do I sense cognitive dissonance? (Also known as buyer remorse) Dissatisfied with your choice in vehicle eh?

Listen up guy, the NSX, S2000, and even the integra are not muscle cars, they are far from practical and bare no weight in this conversation. My response to your post I quoted originally was not an attack on you, it was as you said "backing up my logic in not buying an import". I don't want to run the country, and never will, and I guess you can thank Christ, buddah, Zeus, or any other true or false prophet your monkey ass might worship. (Now I am giving you some shit)

You started off in here as a mustang owner. That's fine, it is always useful and interesting to hear the other sides story, get feedback argue, etc. however now that you own a Honda, you really have alienated yourself from the muscle car, the segment, and perhaps this website. I don't care about your Honda, your mom, or her corvette.

You pretty much beckoned me to respond to your brutal calling out that "people who don't buy imports, have no real reason to not buy imports"
My Grandfather, and two great uncles, died and lost numerous friends in the pearl harbor attack. So when I say Countries that attack America (especially those that attack unprovoked can eat a dick) I say it with founded conviction.

I have no racial prejudice if that is the point you are trying to beat around, I just choose not to buy imports because I don't like their colorful histories, array of vehicles. Until any of those companies offer legitimate muscle cars, I will continually maintain these feelings of non-commitment, less appreciation for all non-domestic automobiles.

And neither are F-bodies... least of all a '79 Formula. I never even alluded that I thought "people who don't buy imports, have no real reason to not buy imports." I said that people who say that they would NEVER buy an import, generally don't give reasons. And again, you act like Japan is the only country we've ever been at war with. Um... GERMANY maybe? So anybody that buys a Volkswagen/Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi is also un-American? And as for the Integra not being practical, I didn't realize that F-bodies were. Cuz I mean, I carried a large christmas tree in my Integra, and also a lawn mower... so much for not being practical.

And neither are F-bodies... least of all a '79 Formula. I never even alluded that I thought "people who don't buy imports, have no real reason to not buy imports." I said that people who say that they would NEVER buy an import, generally don't give reasons. And again, you act like Japan is the only country we've ever been at war with. Um... GERMANY maybe? So anybody that buys a Volkswagen/Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi is also un-American? And as for the Integra not being practical, I didn't realize that F-bodies were. Cuz I mean, I carried a large christmas tree in my Integra, and also a lawn mower... so much for not being practical.


Jesus Christ you are dense! This will be the last time I stray into topics directly irrelevant to cars with you. I wrote, and repeated that (I will not buy large ticket items from) COUNTRIES THAT ATTACK AMERICA (ESPECIALLY UNPROVOKED) CAN EAT A DICK
If you took history, or even watched TV you would possess the knowledge that America chose to engage Germany in war, because they were under somewhat of an obligation to aid our allies. Germany as you will (probably not) recall was run by a madman, who was killing off people based on their religion, and conquering lands for the sake of personal gain. This is referred to as "financially-motivated genocide"

I am not partial to German cars but I do appreciate them they do make nice luxuary cars. But they don't so much make affordable performance cars (and no I don't consider the M3 afforable when compared to fast american v8 sedans Mainly the g8)

If you are so committed to being right, I will exercise my ability to be responsible and walk away from this issue/ arguement. I really don't think you are an idiot, I blame myself for not "illustrating my point adequately"

And as far as something going on in Japan being good enough for us, when did we start basing what is ok in this country off of what other countries do?Oh, it's very relevant.
That country, though maybe not doing quite as well as it was a few years back, is NOT hurting as badly as we are here right now and they're auto industry is definitely not as beat up as ours is.
So they must be doing something right.
Maybe that's why we should be basing what we do off of what other countries do.
They have something called honor and pride, country and company FIRST or you fail. I may not patronize their vehicle products but I give major kudos to them for putting their own FIRST.
And that's how I view the U.S. domestic nameplate auto industry (and among the reasons why I buy their product) as well, with pride and honor :usa: just like the Japanese people view their Toyota, Honda, Sony etc.

The Big 3 are about 15 years late making cars that a large part of the population actually wants, and they wonder why people are slow to jump back on the bandwagon.Well, yeah, I wonder why as well. :confused:
40 years ago the Honda and Toyota vehicles sold in this country (of what few there were) basically sucked, so people continued to buy GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles as they always had.
Then the Big 3 got a little fat and lazy while Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans got a little better (and more fuel efficient) so lots of people (but not all of us ;)) bought them instead.
Now GM and Ford once again build cars that are great and in some cases as good or better values than the Japanese competition yet this time around thay're not willing to switch like they did when the imports got better 30 years ago.
Is it some sort of revenge or grudge? The public is going to teach the domestic nameplate companies a lesson or something?:huh: Some lame principle that must be met at all costs, even at the destruction of the entire U.S. economy?
The public so widely rejected Japanese vehicles in the '50s, '60s and early '70s yet still bought those products later on...why is it too much for one to ask that they give GM and Ford the very same courtesy?

Couldn't agree with you more. Go figure we launch a series of nuclear weapons on their cities, devastate both. Only to get crushed in our own domestic auto market.And that about sums it up...it appears that they got their revenge for that and then some, they might've actually won that war afterall. :nono:
Not that beating someone with money in a marketplace is anything remotely as horrific as vaporizing/maming millions of people or anything, this is just a different kind of war.

Well, yeah, I wonder why as well. :confused:
40 years ago the Honda and Toyota vehicles sold in this country (of what few there were) basically sucked, so people continued to buy GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles as they always had.
Then the Big 3 got a little fat and lazy while Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans got a little better (and more fuel efficient) so lots of people (but not all of us ;)) bought them instead.
Now GM and Ford once again build cars that are great and in some cases as good or better values than the Japanese competition yet this time around thay're not willing to switch like they did when the imports got better 30 years ago.
Is it some sort of revenge or grudge? The public is going to teach the domestic nameplate companies a lesson or something?:huh: Some lame principle that must be met at all costs, even at the destruction of the entire U.S. economy?
The public so widely rejected Japanese vehicles in the '50s, '60s and early '70s yet still bought those products later on...why is it too much for one to ask that they give GM and Ford the very same courtesy?

Because it's now "trendy" and "hip" to buy Japanese cars, plain and simple. Remember when fast and the furious came and the ricer population boomed? It was, and still is completely illogical and wasteful to own/build a ricer (and for the uneducated reading this a ricer is any modded car of any make with "all show and no go" mods to look like a race car but really comes out to be tacky and usually hurting performance). They did/still do this because its trendy, and they are sheeple just following the herd. With the media attention that the japanese companies are [paying for] receiving this is no different. Its all about image.
The fad will eventually end and people will open their eyes.

"If you took history, or even watched TV you would possess the knowledge that America chose to engage Germany in war, because they were under somewhat of an obligation to aid our allies. Germany as you will (probably not) recall was run by a madman, who was killing off people based on their religion, and conquering lands for the sake of personal gain. This is referred to as "financially-motivated genocide"

Dude- Just like we engauged Germany because of our allies, Japan was just as obligated to attack us because they were Germany's allie. It was a world war, you were on one side or another. Sure we didn't go do anything to Japan but we joined the beat down on their friends, so they retaliated.

"If you took history, or even watched TV you would possess the knowledge that America chose to engage Germany in war, because they were under somewhat of an obligation to aid our allies. Germany as you will (probably not) recall was run by a madman, who was killing off people based on their religion, and conquering lands for the sake of personal gain. This is referred to as "financially-motivated genocide"

Dude- Just like we engauged Germany because of our allies, Japan was just as obligated to attack us because they were Germany's allie. It was a world war, you were on one side or another. Sure we didn't go do anything to Japan but we joined the beat down on their friends, so they retaliated.

Did you go to American schools? We entered WWII dec 8 1941...the day after Pearl Harbor. Then a few days later Germany declared war on us. Our country didnt do much of shit before that. America was a bunch of bitches back then, and it didnt look like we were going to do shit for the war until we were brought into it.

Sorry I stand corrected I rechecked the facts, sorry.

For the record, Japan's attack on us wasn't entirely unprovoked. Not saying it was justified, but they did it for a reason. Without going into too much detail, I believe it had something to do with a trade embargo/block that we had established against Japan.

I thought it there was some reason to it and not just "hey lets bomb those dudes over there" but like I said I had my facts wrong.

You can jump ship to imports, which you obviously already have. And yet you continue to persist on maintaining active participation on Ls1tech...hmmm. Do I sense cognitive dissonance? (Also known as buyer remorse) Dissatisfied with your choice in vehicle eh?

Nice post-quote edit, by the way. I have not "jumped ship to imports" at all. My next car will either be another Frontier, an LS2 GTO, or a Corvette. It depends where I am financially/professionally/socially when I finish school in a couple years. Just because I am on LS1tech, doesn't mean I'm dissatisfied with what I drive. I joined LS1tech 3.5 years and 3 cars ago.

For the record, Japan's attack on us wasn't entirely unprovoked. Not saying it was justified, but they did it for a reason. Without going into too much detail, I believe it had something to do with a trade embargo/block that we had established against Japan.

Thats like a crackhead attacking his friends because they wont give hime coke money anymore. Not much of a reason. Japan put themselves in the position they were in. Just like a crackhead.

I wasn't defending their reasoning, or saying it was justified. Just saying it wasn't "unprovoked." If China decided to stop shipping shit to us (which would absolutely cripple our society), do you not think we would take military action against them?

I wasn't defending their reasoning, or saying it was justified. Just saying it wasn't "unprovoked." If China decided to stop shipping shit to us (which would absolutely cripple our society), do you not think we would take military action against them?

Your out of your mind if you think we would take military action against a country for deciding not to trade with us anymore. Its like beating someone up for not giving you their lunch money....then expecting the money again the next day. Do you think the sep 11th/ prior WTC/ uss cole attacks were provoked? Just because you dont like the way someone conducts themselves does not mean you sucker punch them and kill 3,000 people. Its was a bitch move by Japan and its a bitch move by the terrorists. If Japan had said "hey America....we dont like the way you are playing ball and we declare war on you" then Pearl Harbor would of been fair game.

Your out of your mind if you think we would take military action against a country for deciding not to trade with us anymore. Its like beating someone up for not giving you their lunch money....then expecting the money again the next day. Do you think the sep 11th/ prior WTC/ uss cole attacks were provoked? Just because you dont like the way someone conducts themselves does not mean you sucker punch them and kill 3,000 people. Its was a bitch move by Japan and its a bitch move by the terrorists. If Japan had said "hey America....we dont like the way you are playing ball and we declare war on you" then Pearl Harbor would of been fair game.

I wasn't defending their reasoning, or saying it was justified. Just saying it wasn't "unprovoked." If China decided to stop shipping shit to us (which would absolutely cripple our society), do you not think we would take military action against them?

Like I said. In THEIR eyes, the only way they could have hoped to successfully win a battle against our country would be to take out a large portion of our Navy.

Like I said. In THEIR eyes, the only way they could have hoped to successfully win a battle against our country would be to take out a large portion of our Navy.

There never would of been a battle against our country if they didnt attack our navy.

And they attacked our country because of the sanctions and blockades that we put on their country. Again, I'm not defending their decision to do so; but they did actually make a decision to do it. They didn't just spin the "What country are we going to attack" globe around and stick a pin in Hawaii.

And they attacked our country because of the sanctions and blockades that we put on their country. Again, I'm not defending their decision to do so; but they did actually make a decision to do it. They didn't just spin the "What country are we going to attack" globe around and stick a pin in Hawaii.

To say it was provoked is idoitic though. They were butthurt that they couldnt help Germany and Italy, end of story.

You're right, of course. There's never two sides to a story.

Did you go to American schools? We entered WWII dec 8 1941...the day after Pearl Harbor. Then a few days later Germany declared war on us. Our country didnt do much of shit before that. America was a bunch of bitches back then, and it didnt look like we were going to do shit for the war until we were brought into it.

Thank you for aiding the issue man, you are dead on accurate, although we did provide weaponry to combat invading forces for our allies, we physically remained out of the war, until the pearl harbor surprise attack.

For the record, Japan's attack on us wasn't entirely unprovoked. Not saying it was justified, but they did it for a reason. Without going into too much detail, I believe it had something to do with a trade embargo/block that we had established against Japan.

Provide a link to such ridiculous allegation and perhaps this statement can hold some small merit. Japan is far from the us, and our only "blockades" I can recall were on axis power supporting nations.

Back to the issue at hand, there is no longer a reason not too purchase american cars any longer, at least not a valid one. And refusal to buy based on past products is no longer a decent excuse. For decades the imports sold here were crap and over time improved, America deserves the same 2nd chance with buyers. There is no dishonor in testing a few domestics and comparing them to the imports, if after that a buyer still chooses an import, than no realistic grudge can be held. I agree that it all boils down to preference, however the same bias I have towards imports is counter shared by people who swear by them. Whatever suits individual prerogative. I just wish the American markets didn't needlessly suffer as a result

Provide a link to such ridiculous allegation and perhaps this statement can hold some small merit. Japan is far from the us, and our only "blockades" I can recall were on axis power supporting nations.

Japan had long been coveting mainland resources, invading China and (en route) Korea for centuries. Under the guise of The Co-Prosperity Sphere (8-Lands Under One Umbrella), Japan plotted an imperial takeover of Asia and the Pacific in the style of Western imperialism less than a century earlier.

The US opposed this movement and placed embargoes on Japan. Searching for supplies and rebelling against US intervention, Japan embarked on its Oriental conquest. Hoping to keep the US Air Force out of Japan's way, Admiral Yamamoto led the attack on Pearl Harbor. Unfortunatley they opened fire 30 minutes before the proclamation of war was officially delivered, so many viewed it as a violation of military convention (Adm. Yamamoto regretted this fact; he admired Western military practices).


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_World_War_2_begin

All it takes is a quick :google: search to pull up evidence. America was basically looking for a reason to get into WW2 and support Churchill and our allies, and it just so happened that provoking Japan to attack us was one of the easiest ways.

But as the war in Europe continued, America's leaders were attempting to get America involved, even though the American people didn't want to become part of it Roosevelt, the presidential candidate, was promising the American people that the Roosevelt administration would remain neutral should he be re-elected. Others knew better. One, for instance, was General Hugh Johnson, who said: "I know of no well informed Washington observer who isn't convinced that, if Mr. Roosevelt is elected (in 1940), he will drag us into war at the first opportunity, and that, if none presents itself, he will make one."

Roosevelt had two opportunities to involve America in World War II: Japan was at war with China, and Germany was at war with Great Britain, France and other countries. Both war zones presented plenty of opportunities to involve the American government in the war, and Roosevelt was quick to seize upon the opportunities presented.

His first opportunity came from the war in the Pacific. It was in August, 1940, that the United States broke the Japanese "purple" war-time code. This gave the American government the ability to read and understand all of their recoverable war-time messages. Machines were manufactured to de-code Japan's messages, and they were sent all over the world, but none was sent to Pearl Harbor.

Roosevelt's public efforts to involve America, while ostensibly remaining neutral, started in August, 1940, when the National Guard was voted into Federal service for one year. This was followed in September by the Selective Service Act, also for one year's duration.

But the key to America's early involvement occurred on September 28, 1940, when Japan, Germany and Italy signed the Tripartite Treaty. This treaty required that any of the three nations had to respond by declaring war should any one of the other three be attacked by any of the Allied nations. This meant that should Japan attack the United States, and the United States responded by declaring war against Japan, it would automatically be at war with the other two nations, Germany and Italy.

Roosevelt now knew that war with Japan meant war with Germany. His problem was solved.

He had made secret commitments to Winston Churchill and the English government to become involved in the war against Germany and he knew that the only way he could fulfill his secret commitments to Churchill to get us into the war, without openly dishonoring his pledges to the American people to keep us out, was by provoking Germany or Japan to attack.

Roosevelt moved towards the Pacific theater first, knowing that, if he could provoke Japan to attack America first, America would automatically be at war with Germany as well. He also knew that, should Germany attack America, Japan would have to declare war on America. So Roosevelt attempted to get either nation to attack the United States first. Japan was to get the first opportunity.

http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm

So again, while it might not have been a "good" reason, they were certainly provoked. Some might say intentionally.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_World_War_2_begin

All it takes is a quick :google: search to pull up evidence. America was basically looking for a reason to get into WW2 and support Churchill and our allies, and it just so happened that provoking Japan to attack us was one of the easiest ways.


http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm

So again, while it might not have been a "good" reason, they were certainly provoked. Some might say intentionally.


Nice post :D *I hear crickets*

Back to the issue at hand, there is no longer a reason not too purchase american cars any longer, at least not a valid one. And refusal to buy based on past products is no longer a decent excuse. For decades the imports sold here were crap and over time improved, America deserves the same 2nd chance with buyers. There is no dishonor in testing a few domestics and comparing them to the imports, if after that a buyer still chooses an import, than no realistic grudge can be held. I agree that it all boils down to preference, however the same bias I have towards imports is counter shared by people who swear by them. Whatever suits individual prerogative. I just wish the American markets didn't needlessly suffer as a resultWell stated. :nod:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_World_War_2_begin

All it takes is a quick :google: search to pull up evidence. America was basically looking for a reason to get into WW2 and support Churchill and our allies, and it just so happened that provoking Japan to attack us was one of the easiest ways.


http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm

So again, while it might not have been a "good" reason, they were certainly provoked. Some might say intentionally.

Your a fucking idiot. Japan was attacking China...The U.S. wanted no part of it and stoped exporting supplies to Japan. If you think that provokes the murdering of 2,400 people, you have problems. Did Japan think they were going to get supplies back from us as after that? Oh wait, let me guess...The Jews also provoked Nazi Germany too?

Nice post :D *I hear crickets*


psi you are such a faggot bitch. Go figure you back the guy who is saying the Pearl Harbor attack was "provoked".

You two fucking nitwits can go to Pearl Harbor and take the U.S.S. Arizona tour...while your there be sure to tell a WWII vet that the attack was "provoked". Are you two guys here secretly from some import site trying to sway people to your little shitty cars? Thats all you two faggots do is defend Japan, then defend their cars. Japans better this, japans better that. Fuck if you like it so much go to a fucking honda website, or go to a toyota website. Its really easy. Would you like me to find an import forum for you where you can be with people of your kind?

"Your a fucking idiot. Japan was attacking China...The U.S. wanted no part of it and stoped exporting supplies to Japan. If you think that provokes the murdering of 2,400 people, you have problems. Did Japan think they were going to get supplies back from us as after that? Oh wait, let me guess...The Jews also provoked Nazi Germany too?
"

So some facts are placed on the plate in front of you and since they're not your facts they're not right? Good.

"Back to the issue at hand, there is no longer a reason not too purchase american cars any longer, at least not a valid one. And refusal to buy based on past products is no longer a decent excuse. For decades the imports sold here were crap and over time improved, America deserves the same 2nd chance with buyers. There is no dishonor in testing a few domestics and comparing them to the imports, if after that a buyer still chooses an import, than no realistic grudge can be held. I agree that it all boils down to preference, however the same bias I have towards imports is counter shared by people who swear by them. Whatever suits individual prerogative. I just wish the American markets didn't needlessly suffer as a result"

I think this says it best and I don't think there is anyone that is not willing to try an american car for their next set of dubs. Specially now a days since the old big 3 have changed their ways. But there will still be people that go to the other big 3 because as some people stated here before, those cars suit their needs better, or they've done research and used the best information they had and those cars fit the bill, or it came down to a cash desicion, and they feel their dollar will go farther. And then their are those that will buy American because the cars have improved and these cars do fit the bill for them and their families.

And then there will be people who keep buying used and it doesn't matter who they buy at that point ha.


I still think it's silly to question a persons patriotism though by the car they drive.
I mean I have family friends that were in WWII that drive imports, are you really saying they're not Patroits?

[QUOTE=PopaPork;10905765
So some facts are placed on the plate in front of you and since they're not your facts they're not right? Good.
[/QUOTE]


He may have stated facts or fiction...they dont matter either way due to the fact they are irrelevent to Japan pulling the first ricer flybye in histrory.

yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup

I'll say for the 3rd time... I never said the attack was warranted or "right," but it was provoked. Roosevelt promised the American people that we wouldn't get into WWII without major provocation, but at the same time he and his advisors knew that the European theatre needed our help. If America hadn't entered the war, Germany would have won WWII. Is there anybody that will deny that? And you can damn me for saying this all you want, but here it goes; it was worth every life that was given/taken to make sure that Germany didn't win. If you don't like my opinion, I don't really care. You asked for proof, I gave proof.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_World_War_2_begin

All it takes is a quick :google: search to pull up evidence. America was basically looking for a reason to get into WW2 and support Churchill and our allies, and it just so happened that provoking Japan to attack us was one of the easiest ways.


http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/ww2.htm

So again, while it might not have been a "good" reason, they were certainly provoked. Some might say intentionally.

Dude, wikianswers is not a reputable site. It is a question answer site where just about anyone can post information or responses. Same with Wikipedia. There is no evidence that this "evidence" is factual. I looked and did several searches using key words like: America, Provoke, blockade, Japan, pearl Harbor. There are a number of websites hosting content on what you are saying, however many of them are based principally on "hear-say" many are conspiracy theorems, and provide little cited evidence of their facts being anything more than opinion. While some of them do seem to fit the bill, and make some sense. They fail to disclose documentation required to prove such outlandish interpretations in the "Provocation" of Japan. Also if you note, in the links you gave me you will notice that America de-coded Japan's Purple system, which enabled us to know Japan was planning an attack. I also can't find info on, or establish a rationale to what resources we were restricting Japan from in the Western Pacific. Other than nearly defenseless Island nations, which would provide very little in terms of raw materials to wage war. I will continue to research this topic, and give you (Irunelevens) some grounds for debate, there are some sites supporting your idea, but they fall short in justifying an act of trade restriction to equal a formally "unannounced" attack, which by war ethics and code is an infringement on the rules of war.

Whats thought provoking is the same Japanese companies that were dropping bombs and killing Americans and our Allies are the same ones importing cars and products into this country. I think the Japanese are winning the war.

Dude, wikianswers is not a reputable site. It is a question answer site where just about anyone can post information or responses. Same with Wikipedia. There is no evidence that this "evidence" is factual. I looked and did several searches using key words like: America, Provoke, blockade, Japan, pearl Harbor. There are a number of websites hosting content on what you are saying, however many of them are based principally on "hear-say" many are conspiracy theorems, and provide little cited evidence of their facts being anything more than opinion. While some of them do seem to fit the bill, and make some sense. They fail to disclose documentation required to prove such outlandish interpretations in the "Provocation" of Japan. Also if you note, in the links you gave me you will notice that America de-coded Japan's Purple system, which enabled us to know Japan was planning an attack. I also can't find info on, or establish a rationale to what resources we were restricting Japan from in the Western Pacific. Other than nearly defenseless Island nations, which would provide very little in terms of raw materials to wage war. I will continue to research this topic, and give you (Irunelevens) some grounds for debate, there are some sites supporting your idea, but they fall short in justifying an act of trade restriction to equal a formally "unannounced" attack, which by war ethics and code is an infringement on the rules of war.


We definately cut off our oil/steel/rubber supply to them. However, we didnt do it to get ourselves involved in the war. We did it to stay out of the war. Yes, Germany would of probably won WWII if not for us. However, I still feel we would of never entered it if not for Pearl Harbor. Funny thing is you would think that Europe would remember all the help we gave them back then, and not fuck us over on stupid shit now, and you would think japan would be butt sore still. But I sense we get along better with Japan than any other country.

Whats thought provoking is the same Japanese companies that were dropping bombs and killing Americans and our Allies are the same ones importing cars and products into this country. I think the Japanese are winning the war.
We don't still hold a grudge against Germany (for the most part). We don't still hold a grudge against Italy (anybody remember Mussolini?). And we don't still hold a grudge against England. Nor do they hold extreme grudges against us. Hell, the German people accepted, allowed, and even ENCOURAGED Hitler to exterminate 6 million people. But nobody is nearly as bitter about that as they are the Japanese GOVERNMENT'S (not the car companies and citizens) decision to do what they did. You blaming Honda/Toyota for what their government did, and expecting us to share your sentiments is worse than me asking you for reparations.
We definately cut off our oil/steel/rubber supply to them. However, we didnt do it to get ourselves involved in the war. We did it to stay out of the war. Yes, Germany would of probably won WWII if not for us. However, I still feel we would of never entered it if not for Pearl Harbor. Funny thing is you would think that Europe would remember all the help we gave them back then, and not fuck us over on stupid shit now, and you would think japan would be butt sore still. But I sense we get along better with Japan than any other country.

Would YOU care to provide some evidence to support your theory?

Would YOU care to provide some evidence to support your theory?


We cut their supplies to try and get them to come back to the bargining table on their war on China. You know the thing all the liberals want to do....diplomacy. Well diplomacy didnt work.


So you think we puposely provoked them, then stratigically sent our ships from San Deigo to Pearl Harbor and docked them in a convenient tight packed pattern so Japan could bomb the shit out of them, just so we could start a two front war......minus the ships that would help us out at Japan? And by all of this give Japan a head start at beating us? :eyes:

US-Japan War: Provocation and Pretext for War

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt set high standards for provoking and creating a pretext for undermining majoritarian anti-war sentiment, unifying and mobilizing the country for war. Robert Stinnett, in his brilliantly documented study, Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor, demonstrates that Roosevelt provoked the war with Japan by deliberately following an eight-step program of harassment and embargo against Japan developed by Lt. Commander Arthur H. McCollum, head of the Far East desk of the Office of Naval Intelligence. He provides systematic documentation of US cables tracking the Japanese fleet to Pearl Harbor, clearly demonstrating that FDR knew in advance of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor following the Japanese fleet virtually every step of the way. Even more damaging, Stinnett reveals that Admiral H.E. Kimmel, in charge of the defense of Pearl Harbor, was systematically excluded from receiving critical intelligence reports on the approaching movements of the Japanese fleet, thus preventing the defense of the US base.

The ‘sneak’ attack by the Japanese, which caused the death over three thousand American service men and the destruction of scores of ships and planes, successfully ‘provoked’ the war FDR had wanted. In the run-up to the Japanese attack, President Roosevelt ordered the implementation of Naval Intelligence’s October 1940 memorandum, authored by McCollum, for eight specific measures, which amounted to acts of war including an economic embargo of Japan, the shipment of arms to Japan’s adversaries, the prevention of Tokyo from securing strategic raw materials essential for its economy and the denial of port access, thus provoking a military confrontation.

To overcome massive US opposition to war, Roosevelt needed a dramatic, destructive immoral act committed by Japan against a clearly ‘defensive’ US base to turn the pacifist US public into a cohesive, outraged, righteous war machine. Hence the Presidential decision to undermine the defense of Pearl Harbor by denying the Navy Commander in charge of its defense, Admiral Kimmel, essential intelligence about anticipated December 7, 1941 attack. The United States ‘paid the price’ with 2,923 Americans killed and 879 wounded, Admiral Kimmel was blamed and stood trial for dereliction of duty, but FDR got his war. The successful outcome of FDR’s strategy led to a half-century of US imperial supremacy in the Asia-Pacific region. An unanticipated outcome, however, was the US and Japanese imperial defeats on the Chinese mainland and in North Korea by the victorious communist armies of national liberation.
Our telegraphic survey of imperial policy-making refutes the conventional and commonplace notion that the decision making process leading up to war is open, public and carried out in accordance with the constitutional rules of a democracy. On the contrary, as is commonplace in many spheres of political, economic, social and cultural life, but especially in questions of war and peace, the key decisions are taken by a small Presidential elite behind closed doors, out of sight and without consultation and in violation of constitutional provisions. The process of provoking conflict in pursuit of military goals is never raised before the electorate. There are never investigations by independent investigatory committees.

The closed nature of the decision making process does not detract from the fact that these decisions were ‘public’ in that they were taken by elected and non-elected public officials in public institutions and directly affected the public. The problem is that the public was kept in the dark about the larger imperial interests that were at stake and the deception that would induce them to blindly submit to the decisions for war. Defenders of the political system are unwilling to confront the authoritarian procedures, the elite fabrications and the unstated imperial goals. Apologists of the military-driven empire builders resort to irrational and pejorative labeling of the critics and skeptics as ‘conspiracy theorists’. For the most part, prestigious academics conform closely to the rhetoric and fabricated claims of the executors of imperial policy.

Everywhere and at all times groups, organizations and leaders meet in closed meetings, before going ‘public’. A minority of policymakers or advocates meet, debate and outline procedures and devise tactics to secure decisions at the ‘official’ meeting. This common practice takes place when any vital decisions are to be taken whether it is at local school boards or in White House meetings. To label the account of small groups of public officials meeting and taking vital decisions in ‘closed’ public meetings (where agendas, procedures and decisions are made prior to formal ‘open’ public meetings) as ‘conspiracy theorizing’ is to deny the normal way in which politics operate. In a word, the ‘conspiracy’ labelers are either ignorant of the most elementary procedures of politics or they are conscious of their role in covering up the abuses of power of today’s state terror merchants.

Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9063

That should be enough reading for one day. If you would like other sources, just google "america provocation of pearl harbor". There's plenty of independant sources with reliable information that isn't disseminated from the top-down.

Back on topic: Toyota sucks.

Hey now GarbS, you must not be American because you don't think everything America does is providence and the best moral thing in the world. What are these "facts" that you speak of? :gtfo:
And for the record ss1129, the US government did a study of the vulnerability of Pearl Harbor back in 1932 and found that it was extremely vulnerable to attack from as close as 60 miles off the coast. We knew it was easy to attack.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh snapppppp dawg!

We don't still hold a grudge against Germany (for the most part). We don't still hold a grudge against Italy (anybody remember Mussolini?). And we don't still hold a grudge against England. Nor do they hold extreme grudges against us. Hell, the German people accepted, allowed, and even ENCOURAGED Hitler to exterminate 6 million people. But nobody is nearly as bitter about that as they are the Japanese GOVERNMENT'S (not the car companies and citizens) decision to do what they did. You blaming Honda/Toyota for what their government did, and expecting us to share your sentiments is worse than me asking you for reparations.


Would YOU care to provide some evidence to support your theory?

I just made the statement that it was thought provoking Irunelevens-san?

From an economics standpoint, buying a German made vehicle does more damage to our job base then does a Japanese vehicle considering how few jobs they provide to us.

I mean I have family friends that were in WWII that drive imports, are you really saying they're not Patroits?Absolutely not. A little stupid and confused maybe, but they are clearly patriots :usa: in the strictest definition of the word.

To me, seeing a WWII veteran driving a Toyota/Honda is almost akin to seeing a 9/11/01 World Trade Center or Pentagon survivor buying a camel from Osama Bin Laden. :lol:
There are just some things that one who still has true pride, honor and strength does not do.
You will of course disagree with that...some others won't.

We don't still hold a grudge against Germany (for the most part). We don't still hold a grudge against Italy (anybody remember Mussolini?). And we don't still hold a grudge against England. Nor do they hold extreme grudges against us. Hell, the German people accepted, allowed, and even ENCOURAGED Hitler to exterminate 6 million people. But nobody is nearly as bitter about that as they are the Japanese GOVERNMENT'S (not the car companies and citizens) decision to do what they did.Well actaully, I am quite bitter about that as well. :wavey: I don't buy German cars either LOL. ;)
Hitler was directly connected to the commissioning of the VW Beetle and Dr. Porsche throughout all of that if one wanted to get real specific. :nod:
And aside from Toyota/Honda, let's not forget Mitsubishi's role over in Japan either, I'd read that they'd actually built the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor (among other places).

But hey, that's just how war is I guess. :nono:

We don't still hold a grudge against Germany (for the most part). We don't still hold a grudge against Italy (anybody remember Mussolini?).
I actually like German and Italian cars. I most likely won't own one while a resident of the United States, but I'd be a fool to say that they're shitty cars and undeserving of my respect.

Also, wasn't Mussolini publicly hanged by an angry mob of pale Italians wearing wife beaters and telling each other to shut up all the time?

And we don't still hold a grudge against England. Nor do they hold extreme grudges against us.
And yet they won't buy our cars either. Go figure that one out.

I most likely won't own one while a resident of the United States, but I'd be a fool to say that they're shitty cars and undeserving of my respect.Actually, so many Italian cars are still plagued with quality/reliability problems LOL.
Used (even low miles versions) Ferraris and Lamborghinis are not exactly known for starting every time in all weather conditions and this is aside from them being obnoxiously costly to maintain/repair.
I can't imagine what a cheaper Italian vehicle such as an entry level Fiat or Lancia must be like LOL. :D ;)






And yet they won't buy our cars either. Go figure that one out.And I've touched on that little detail before as well when it comes to other nations not "returning the favor" so to speak.
Forgetting all else, the wars, the economic ramifications, the American jobs lost/gained, the lobbyists in Washington, the American public embracing/supporting other nation's markets before their own etc. etc...that one fact alone should be enough to make the people of a nation historically known for it's pride, nationalism, strength and honor say "fvck this"...you won't buy the vehicles that my nation designs/produces/markets then I won't buy yours, period.
That's called basic pride, that's called having balls.

Um... GM/Ford over in Europe are HUGE. Big enough to where if they went out of business over here, they could still stay in business over there.

Well actaully, I am quite bitter about that as well. :wavey: I don't buy German cars either LOL. ;)
Hitler was directly connected to the commissioning of the VW Beetle and Dr. Porsche throughout all of that if one wanted to get real specific. :nod:
And aside from Toyota/Honda, let's not forget Mitsubishi's role over in Japan either, I'd read that they'd actually built the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor (among other places).

But hey, that's just how war is I guess. :nono:

And you're right, that's exactly how war is. If we entered a(nother?) bogus war right now, and the government need Ford and GM to start manufacturing equipment... they would. Because their government asked them to. Mitsubishi was making planes... for their government. American manufacturers made planes and equipment in WW2... for their government. They weren't the ones doing the planning and strategy for the war, or flying the planes. Again, I compare what many of you bitch about to me asking you for reparations.

Hmm.. Ill throw in my .02 cents...

1 cent.. I make for Toyota here in KY.. and we get laid off every few weeks to catch up... and it sucks hardcore wang..

1 cent... my great grandfather was in the phillipines(sp) in WWII AND was shot and he drove a toyota truck until he died last year. They arent the enemy anymore.

Um... GM/Ford over in Europe are HUGE. Big enough to where if they went out of business over here, they could still stay in business over there.
Yea, but GM (& Ford I think) have their own engineering and manufacturing enterprises in Europe. So Opel, despite being owned by GM, is a German car. Very few cars that are sold over there under American, or at least domestic, nameplates are truly American cars.

Hmm.. Ill throw in my .02 cents...

1 cent.. I make for Toyota here in KY.. and we get laid off every few weeks to catch up... and it sucks hardcore wang..Oh, I wonder why it is that so many people are so quick to point fingers only at GM/Ford/Chrysler for having to lay off hard working Americans (employing more of them to begin with of course) when it happens regularly with others as well?:huh:







1 cent... my great grandfather was in the phillipines(sp) in WWII AND was shot and he drove a toyota truck until he died last year. They arent the enemy anymore.Strong employee/family discounts can go A LONG way in influencing one's sense of principle/pride. ;)
That being said, my sincerest respect and gratitude to your grandfather for doing what he did :usa: so that I could have the freedom to even type this right now. :thumb:

Yea, but GM (& Ford I think) have their own engineering and manufacturing enterprises in Europe. So Opel, despite being owned by GM, is a German car. Very few cars that are sold over there under American, or at least domestic, nameplates are truly American cars.

Yeah, but according to many on this site, that doesn't matter. Because all the profit goes back to America :eyes:

My dad was the manager/mastertech of one of the largest GM dealerships until 2007 when he got struck by lightning.. few months later my GG died. Then about the same time I got my job making toyota/nissan/honda products. So no influences, it was a piece of shit LOL :) I perfer not to buy them myself(GM only please... oh the irony) but some are easy to work on and most are made here in kentucky and indiana and built to top notch quality.

Buying only american isnt a good thing since our beloved f-bodies dont even have a MADE IN USA stamp on them. A lot of foreign products are made here that employes a lot of americans. My plant funds a lot of crap in my commmunity too. I remember getting grants etc for tools and equipment from then when I was at my tech school.

My dad was the manager/mastertech of one of the largest GM dealerships until 2007 when he got struck by lightning.. few months later my GG died. Then about the same time I got my job making toyota/nissan/honda products. So no influences, it was a piece of shit LOL :) I perfer not to buy them myself(GM only please... oh the irony) but some are easy to work on and most are made here in kentucky and indiana and built to top notch quality.

Buying only american isnt a good thing since our beloved f-bodies dont even have a MADE IN USA stamp on them. A lot of foreign products are made here that employes a lot of americans. My plant funds a lot of crap in my commmunity too. I remember getting grants etc for tools and equipment from then when I was at my tech school.


First I would like to commend you for taking the money from a Foreign company and spending it on your LS1 powered F-body!

You really can't look at it piece meal. You have to look at it from the stand point of how few Americans the Japanese employ compared to GM or any of our Auto manufacturers. We all know that GM employs more Americans than All of the Foreign car companies combined. And when you look at the assembly plant in Canada you see how many sub components of the Camaro are made here. Canada is a good trading partner compared to Japan anyway. what's good for Canada is typically good for us. Our money and Jobs flowing from here to Japan is a different story.

When I worked for one of the big 3 Japanese OEMs in the 90s I was 1 of less than 66 Development Engineers they employed in Our country. When I worked at GM's DPG I was 1 of thousands of Engineers they employed. The Japanese will never employ us in those numbers, they believe in taking care of there own and we could learn from that.

They're employing many times more people now than they were back in the 90s. I think every car they sell in America, besides the S2000, is made in America.

When I worked for one of the big 3 Japanese OEMs in the 90s I was 1 of less than 66 Development Engineers they employed in Our country. When I worked at GM's DPG I was 1 of thousands of Engineers they employed. The Japanese will never employ us in those numbers, they believe in taking care of there own and we could learn from that.True.

And the one thing that NO ONE ever steps up and addresses when I bring it up...the Japanese OEMs are very efficient and very productive in their operations and I do commend them on that, :cheers: our Big 3 could possibly learn a lot from that method of conducting business.
But, if a company is that efficient and productive and pure masters at reducing costs and more effective at utilizing reliable machinery that doesn't require medical benefits, then umm, how is it again that they're going to also continually higher my nephews, your children etc, years down the line?:huh:
Again, GM/Ford/Chrysler have also replaced their fair share of humans with machinery as well but if they were selling cars like they were back in the day ('50s, '60s, 70s...ya know, back when Americans bought American nameplate vehicles like I still do know ;)) there would still be plenty of jobs to go around, even with the modern robotics.

In other words, what is great for Toyota, Honda, BMW is not necessarily the same thing that is also great for the American worker.

And of course according to some of you those cars are SO reliable, dependable and maintenance free that all of the techs/mechanics would be out of work in a matter of days if the only factories producing vehicles were Toyota/Honda LOL. :lol: ;)

There are very few japanese people at work, the president and the office guys are but all the engineers and maitenance are all local guys from Owensboro, here and Bowling Green. Most of them car guys.

They're employing many times more people now than they were back in the 90s. I think every car they sell in America, besides the S2000, is made in America.

Many times? There are a few more American R&D Engineers at the Proving Grounds where I previously worked, but I can count the addition on my hands vs. how many they employed 10 years ago. I can also state from personal experience that the Japanese are extremely resistant to replacing Japanese Jobs with American jobs. Unlike us, we apparently export American jobs at the drop of a hat and call it globalization.

If your reffering to Honda, they should get Kudos for employing more Americans per vehicle built than any of the other Foreign car companies. Hyundai, VW, BMW and Mercedes employ a pitance in this country by comparison. But many car buyers here really don't care if their automoble company of choice supports their own jobs.

You're right; people here buy cars that they like. Shame on them. And I was speaking more along the lines of Nissan/Honda/Toyota of North America having a corporate infrastructure and manufacturing plants here, not necessarily R&D engineers at the proving grounds.

They're employing many times more people now than they were back in the 90s. I think every car they sell in America, besides the S2000, is made in America.
They were "trying" for an 80% goal for cars to be made locally this year. The S2000 does not account for 20% of their sales. I applaud them for the 80% goal, but lets not stretch or falsely word the truth.
Of all the Japanese manufacturers I believe Honda is the best at employing Americans by ratio to cars sold, but they still fall FAR short of any of the domestic manufacturers.

They were "trying" for an 80% goal for cars to be made locally this year. The S2000 does not account for 20% of their sales. I applaud them for the 80% goal, but lets not stretch or falsely word the truth.Of all the Japanese manufacturers I believe Honda is the best at employing Americans by ratio to cars sold, but they still fall FAR short of any of the domestic manufacturers.

They're employing many times more people now than they were back in the 90s. I think every car they sell in America, besides the S2000, is made in America.

;) :nod:

;) :nod:

I guess the thinking should come before the typing of such a broad statement then. The problem is too many Americans think the same BS because they heard somebody like you say it. Then they label themselves patriots for buying American and supporting so many American jobs even though Honda only directly employs 25,000 Americans. I was clearing up a false statement. Just because you put "I think" doesn't make it any less false. The fact that you thought it shows you were falsely informed by someone else that maybe now you can correct next time. Or you just threw it out there to see if it would fly.

Or you just over-reacted. And the last employment figures I heard from Honda was 32,000. But I've also seen figures of ~37,000. There are ~15,000 people employed at the Ohio manufacturing plants alone. According to Honda's website, the figure was over 27,000 people as of April 2nd. They had 3 plants under construction at the time, and I believe one has been finished already (hence the 32,000 and 37,000 figures). So the fact that you thought 25,000 shows you were falsely informed by someone else that maybe now you can correct next time. Or you just threw it out there to see if it would fly ;). Next time, don't be a dick.

Actually you are right. It was 27,000 according to their website which has been updated since it remarks that 2009 is their 50th anniversary in America. But I was only slightly off not making an absolute statement like "I THINK that Honda doesn't employ any Americans".

Also, I wasnt being a dick, just correcting misinformation.

You said it with the intention of being a smartass, and now you're backtracking because you put your foot in your mouth. And you were even more wrong than I was, because you were wrong when you tried to correct me. I'd say throwing out a specific number is a bit more "absolute" than an "I think" statement. But it's ok ;).

They were "trying" for an 80% goal for cars to be made locally this year. The S2000 does not account for 20% of their sales. I applaud them for the 80% goal, but lets not stretch or falsely word the truth.
Of all the Japanese manufacturers I believe Honda is the best at employing Americans by ratio to cars sold, but they still fall FAR short of any of the domestic manufacturers.

Correction: 80% goal for cars to be "Assembled locally". Even though I would never buy a Honda other then a power washer, they are doing better at producing jobs here than any of the other Japanese companies, especially compared to the German and Korean Automotive OEMs, who support relatively few American Jobs for the amount of vehicles they sell here.

Really don't like giving them Kudos (The whole F&F and NOPI thing), but what the hell.

And mzoomora is correct on them falling short, even compared to Chysler on employing us. It will be interesting to see if they start cutting back on American jobs to conserve there own jobs back in Japan as Toyota has.