Automotive News, Media & Press - Chrysler won't repay bailout money

I hate to say I was right.... but....

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/05/news/companies/chrysler_loans/index.htm

http://strangeherring.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/joker-burning-money.jpg

SNAP... :ripped:

Oh it's ok, it's a loan they all said, it's not a hand out, it's a loan, they'll pay it back.......WTF? Were are all those clowns now?

Worse yet..... not only are they not repaying the loan but we are "loaning" them more $$$$$$$$$$$$$

The Obama administration official said that other money being made available to Chrysler, such as the $4.7 billion that will go to the company as it exits bankruptcy, will be a loan that the government expects to be paid back. In addition, that loan will be secured by company assets, unlike the previous loans to Chrysler.

According to the filing, the company's financial advisor also foresees the need for an additional $1.5 billion loan from the Treasury Department by June 30, 2010.



GM will no doubt file their C11 soon and they won't re-pay either.... only difference is they "borrowed" even more$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :bang: and no doubt we will "loan" GM more $$$$$$$$$ as well.

And could be followed by Ford starting to "borrow" $$$$$$$$$$$$. :bang: with the same end result. :(

I'd bet a LOT of these "loans" are going to wind up that way.... not just the ones to the Auto industry.

It's all part of the plan.


http://strangeherring.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/joker-burning-money.jpg

The fuckers should have folded or filed MONTHS ago. Fuckers knew exactly what they were doing. Get as much cash as possible, keep business running as normal for as long as they can, then just fold and have their lawyers and accountants burry the loans in the C11 doc.

My hats go off to you Chrysler...well played...well played.

"Well played," those cocksuckers stole our money. What the fuck do you mean "well played." We are ruining our country and the reason it is getting ruined is because no one gets upset about anything anymore, "well played." Seriously think about what you just said.

W

He was simply being sarcastic.

Sarcasm...it's what for breakfast.

Wow... guess us taxpayers just get to bend over and take it dry once again.

The only people to blame for this is the government. They should have said no in Dec, or simply gave in and gave them the money they needed. While the latter part would have sucked, they knew it was the only way to get back what was owed. Shitty thing is I've worked for the Gov't in some capacity for 14 years now.

But then we can't blame them because we elected those idiots to office, and we (meaning American's) were the one's responsible for purchasing their vehicles to help them out. So I've said it once and I'll say it again, if you've ever purchased a new non-American automotive vehicle, you've helped put the Big three where they are.

But then we can't blame them because we elected those idiots to office,

I sure didn't.

The only people to blame for this is the government. They should have said no in Dec, or simply gave in and gave them the money they needed. While the latter part would have sucked, they knew it was the only way to get back what was owed. Shitty thing is I've worked for the Gov't in some capacity for 14 years now.

But then we can't blame them because we elected those idiots to office, and we (meaning American's) were the one's responsible for purchasing their vehicles to help them out. So I've said it once and I'll say it again, if you've ever purchased a new non-American automotive vehicle, you've helped put the Big three where they are.



Here we go again......
Maybe if the 3 made cars people wanted people would have bought their cars. They didn't people went elsewhere. If they weren't paying UAW and all there people ridic salaries, they wouldn't be here. Please lets not turn this in to, American should have been buying American cars. I'd love to know what kind of computer, tv, and other electronics you own and where they came from.

But you're right about one thing, we did this to ourselves, we elected, both Bush and Obama and Congress who set these bail outs in motion. Plain and simple. The feds should have said, sorry we got screwed by the Banks with something like this not so long ago, we won't do it again. File Chapter 11.

But they didn't and now we owe ourselves and everyone else billions of dollars and they still are closing down plants and laying people off and killing car brands.

I agree that people who don't buy american are some what to blame. I can also see why people wouldn't buy american. Fat overpaid lazy workers who will strike and cripple a company over 2 cents an hour. How can american companies make a quality product when their workers are overpaid and lazy so to save any money they have to cut corners. Now crysler going bankrupt is nothing new as far as I can tell that happens every 5 years or so nothing new with them. Oh and by the way cryslers cap 11 isn't actually a real cap 11 filing. Its one of obamas buddies making sure the union stays in these companies. Until the unions are out these companies are F**ked! Simple as that. All the jap companies will be in the same boat if the union gets in with them too so lets hope not in that if american cars are gone and they have no one to compete with we are yet again stuck with a shit product. Competition brings quality. Dump the union or its over labor costs like that would destroy any company no matter what country produces it.

So I've said it once and I'll say it again, if you've ever purchased a new non-American automotive vehicle, you've helped put the Big three where they are.

Do we still not have a :facepalm: smilie? :eyes:

Do we still not have a :facepalm: smilie? :eyes:

You can roll your eyes all you want but what he said has truth to it. The reasons for people not buying domestics (good or bad) can be debated. HOWEVER, people not buying domestic cars HAS helped cause this. Arguing any differently is stupid.

I will conceeed that not buying American cars had helped to this. Fine you got me. But I won't agree that the quality was the same, and that the 3 listend to what peopled wanted.

Yes... but they have been closing the gap. GM and Ford more so than Chrysler.

GM and Ford have really stepped up their game in quality!!!!!! :usa:

I agree that people who don't buy american are some what to blame. I can also see why people wouldn't buy american. Fat overpaid lazy workers who will strike and cripple a company over 2 cents an hour. How can american companies make a quality product when their workers are overpaid and lazy so to save any money they have to cut corners. Now crysler going bankrupt is nothing new as far as I can tell that happens every 5 years or so nothing new with them. Oh and by the way cryslers cap 11 isn't actually a real cap 11 filing. Its one of obamas buddies making sure the union stays in these companies. Until the unions are out these companies are F**ked! Simple as that. All the jap companies will be in the same boat if the union gets in with them too so lets hope not in that if american cars are gone and they have no one to compete with we are yet again stuck with a shit product. Competition brings quality. Dump the union or its over labor costs like that would destroy any company no matter what country produces it.


I kinda have to take offense to this, but let me explain why: Before we went full time with speedtweekerz 4 years ago (been in business for 7), I actually worked at the ford kansas city assembly plant where the f150 was built, and let me tell you that I earned every freakin penny I was paid there. We pumped out between 50-60 trucks an HOUR which means you work non-stop. Hell, you cant even go to the bathroom without turning on a blue light and have someone come and do your job while you're taking a piss! Plus there is only 2500.00 worth of labor in an f-150. The media has basically tried to place all the blame on the workers and the union. I will give you that the union does tend to protect the deadbeats but they have been working on that. With that said however the UAW did actually help rasie the standard of living in our country over the past 40-50 years by forcing big corporations to share the wealth with the people who actually do the work. I'll agree that these companies definitely need to get there act together, but the blame lies with management NOT the guys on the floor buidling the vehicles, that I can assure you! I guarantee you if you were to step up and do the jobs that are done on those vehicles for the 15.00 an hour they are trying to get for new hires you would say f*@# this and walk off. Hell I seen people walking off when they were getting paid 25.00 an hour. BUY AMERICAN PERIOD!!

When your neighbor doesnt have a job its only a matter of time before you lose yours!!

Sorry for the rant :chug:

we are all going to hell in a hand basket

I will conceeed that not buying American cars had helped to this. Fine you got me. But I won't agree that the quality was the same, and that the 3 listend to what peopled wanted.

I can agree, the quality gap can be argued with respect to "some" Toyotas and Hondas vs. the equivalent GM vehicle, and that may be changing over the last couple of years. But, when you open it to all foreign vehicles it's a different story; Mitsu, subs, Suzuki, Fiat, and any Korean car up until a couple of years ago are not worth having out of warrantee, and some of them aren't worth having in warrantee! Many of these companies have always been kept afloat by their governments through currency manipulation or subsidies anyway. So we are doing the same thing they have been doing for years with the loans. If you take these sub-tier companies out of our market we would have one less economic battle to fight with Foreign companies.

Additionally, GM didn't get to be the largest Auto manufacturer in the world by being un-competitive relative to "All" foreign vehicles. If that was the case they would be like Fiat or Yugo. I wouldn't buy a Chrysler for the same reason I wouldn't buy a Mitsu, quality. The exception being Mitsubishi is a "Foreign" company that supports almost no American jobs outside of sales and service.

My favorite is the "Exclusive" Toyota or Nissan buyer that swears “if GM or Ford made a vehicle that was “just equal” in build quality to their precious foreign make” they would come back and buy an American. Make. These are the same people who ran out and bought new Tundras, Sequoias, Titans and Armadas when they were released. Let’s say that arguably; the Tundra is equal to a Ford or Chevy ½ ton, so why bother buying the Toyota…Styling? Never seemed to be an issue when the Toyota purchasers ran out and bought the Camry, that looked just like the previous generation Lumina. And I can argue all day that the GM and Ford half ton trucks are superior to the Titan which has had sales numbers so bad over the last year that they were going to replace it with a Dodge Ram, or the Armada with its worst in class gas mileage.

BUY AMERICAN PERIOD!!

When your neighbor doesnt have a job its only a matter of time before you lose yours!!

Sorry for the rant :chug:

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.


I know, a little extreme, but still applies.

I meant no offence to you heavy6.0. All I am saying is that the unions have outlived their need. I totally agree with you when you say buy ameircan. I have always owned american cars and I always will. Oh and by the way I may start buying ford in the future because I will not buy a car from a company that is owned or partally owned by the govt. I refuse it is completely against everything I belive in. Trust me I meant no offence. Oh and if I couldn't have a chevy or gmc truck it would be an F150. Wouldn't even waste my time on anyone elses junk.

I also have to agree with all the toyota thumpers who say they would buy american if the quality was as good as bs as stated above. GM and Ford have both made huge leaps in quality and as someone who works for a major rental company, I won't name which, I disagree when people say imports are better quality. Flat out bs imo. Besides the shining light of quality "toyota" just had a downgrade of quality last I checked. I have driven them all. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsu. Never in my right mind would I ever own any. Bland no fun grocery getters on their best day. If thats all you like though then go for it. I just prefer an american v6 with some go and the same fuel econ as the import. Plus I don't have to hear the buzz from the engine compartment.

I meant no offence to anyone trust me. Just letting loose because my dreams seem to be slipping away by the day.

Since they are keeping are tax money, does that mean we can pick a car up off their lot since we already paid for one? :confused:

NO.... might seem like you could but.... problem with free car theory is... your "share" as a taxpayer on a mathematical basis doesn't workout anywhere close to the price of a car. In Chrysler's case..... your share is about $70 per tax payer. In GM's case is is about $160 per tax payer.
If they go under.... maybe you'd get a free tire or something for your share.

In order for everyone to qualify to get a new car for "free".... which wouldn't be free.... you'd be paying in the form of taxes.... GM, Chrysler, (and maybe soon Ford) would have to borrowed $3,000,000,000,000. That $3 Trillion. That's based on $30K per car for 100Million tax payers.

(That's all based upon approximately 100 Million people that actually pay taxes.)(Also don't forget we don't all pay the same amount of taxes and your share goes down further still.... unless you pay a hell of a lot of taxes.)(If you add in the other 200 million that don't pay taxes... your share would be even less.)

Here we go again......
Maybe if the 3 made cars people wanted people would have bought their cars. They didn't people went elsewhere. If they weren't paying UAW and all there people ridic salaries, they wouldn't be here. Please lets not turn this in to, American should have been buying American cars. I'd love to know what kind of computer, tv, and other electronics you own and where they came from.

I'll happily answer that, I own the same piece of crap foreign made stuff that we are forced to buy because our manufacturing companies were forced to close their doors due to people not buying American. I check EVERYTHING I buy, and if I have the option to buy American I get it. 75+% of the time I don't have a choice.

And people can argue the "oh they don't make a car I want" bullshit all they want, but the fact is they have been making cars just as good as the Japanese competition for about 6 years now. In fact GM has taken NA car of the year and MT car of the year the last two years running (2007 & 2008).

I cannot however disagree with the UAW and ridiculous salaries part. I have worked for the glass maker who makes the windshields, door windows, etc. for Toyota's Camry and I made 12 buck an hour to stand next to a glass furnace and solder defrost tips onto the back glass of the Avalon. 12 dollars an hour, throw in benefits and I might've been making my current salary, hell my federal job now including benefits comes to half of what the AVERAGE GM employee makes, and only a handful of engineers I know at Lexmark make more than they do. There is no excuse for paying a salaried worker that kind of money and give them health benefits to boot. I'm sorry if I offend someone (bound to happen when sharing my opinion), but I can honestly say that I make too much money for the shit I do, and the shit I did for 12 bucks an hour probably wasn't worth that.

Ultimately yes had people continued to buy American, a)we would not be in this recession, b)the last remnants of manufacturing in America would not be threatened like we are now.

Unfortunately you can't undo the past so now we simply live with the choices our parents and if your old enough you made. Thanks, I love the inheritance.

Here we go again......
Maybe if the 3 made cars people wanted people would have bought their cars. They didn't people went elsewhere. If they weren't paying UAW and all there people ridic salaries, they wouldn't be here. Please lets not turn this in to, American should have been buying American cars. I'd love to know what kind of computer, tv, and other electronics you own and where they came from.

Bottom line is he's right. You have a point, but he's still right. By purchasing imports, we were strengthening the competition and weakening our own automakers. It doesn't matter who you blame for your decision, if you bought an import, you contributed to this mess. You can try to put the blame on american automakers, but that's just passing the buck, because they can put it right back on you and say "if Americans were buying our cars, we'd have the money to make them better"... and it just goes back and forth while the bottom line remains that your money went overseas.

Bottom line is he's right. You have a point, but he's still right. By purchasing imports, we were strengthening the competition and weakening our own automakers. It doesn't matter who you blame for your decision, if you bought an import, you contributed to this mess. You can try to put the blame on american automakers, but that's just passing the buck, because they can put it right back on you and say "if Americans were buying our cars, we'd have the money to make them better"... and it just goes back and forth while the bottom line remains that your money went overseas.

Speaking of passing the Buck...Don't pass it to the consumer. If you run a business and your not selling your product than guess what...your a failure as a businessman. GM failed US... WE did not fail them. Everyone here that plays into the whole BS of buying American is a hypocrite because I bet you %80 percent of those people have owned or have bought a Nike, Adidas, or Reebok pair of shoes. If it's all about being Pro-american than everyone should have a pair of New Balance, which I'm sure not everyone owns.
I would never buy a piece of crap because a company is too disinterested in producing a competitive product.

And this mess wasn't caused by those who bought imports it was caused by the morons who took out home loans that they had no possible way of repaying. A bank is not your mommy and just because they say you can take out that much money doesn't mean you should.

It's funny the quality perception that people have..... frankly... the foreign makers have very few cars/trucks that even appeal to me.... and none appeal as well as models made by GM.

And I'm not trying be pro-GM there... simply stating what I like/don't like.

Speaking of passing the Buck...Don't pass it to the consumer. If you run a business and your not selling your product than guess what...your a failure as a businessman. GM failed US... WE did not fail them. Everyone here that plays into the whole BS of buying American is a hypocrite because I bet you %80 percent of those people have owned or have bought a Nike, Adidas, or Reebok pair of shoes. If it's all about being Pro-american than everyone should have a pair of New Balance, which I'm sure not everyone owns.
I would never buy a piece of crap because a company is too disinterested in producing a competitive product.

Your just repeating what PapaPork said. Thanks, but I already read it, and responded to it.

And this mess wasn't caused by those who bought imports it was caused by the morons who took out home loans that they had no possible way of repaying. A bank is not your mommy and just because they say you can take out that much money doesn't mean you should.

This, in reference to our economy as a whole, is right on. I'm not really going to elaborate though since this thread is about american automakers and not the economy as a whole.

The banks didn't put the automakers where they are, legacy costs and foreign competition did.

The Soul blame lays on the crooked CEO's of these company's (including the f-ed up banks who should'nt have got a dime either) and their lack of guidence to create and build the best product they could and still willing to take there absurde salary's and bonuses. They should all be hung ,there assets confiscated and diveded up to repay the workers. The Ceo's are the real crooks and the U.S. govt. in bed with them.

Speaking of passing the Buck...Don't pass it to the consumer. If you run a business and your not selling your product than guess what...your a failure as a businessman. GM failed US... WE did not fail them. Everyone here that plays into the whole BS of buying American is a hypocrite because I bet you %80 percent of those people have owned or have bought a Nike, Adidas, or Reebok pair of shoes. If it's all about being Pro-american than everyone should have a pair of New Balance, which I'm sure not everyone owns.
I would never buy a piece of crap because a company is too disinterested in producing a competitive product.

This is making the assumption that we are on a level playing field with our Foreign competitors which we are not. Japan has always had a closed market to Foreign goods. There whole economy is geared on exports. It has served them well and it can work for us. We create the technology and we let the rest of the world copy it and sell it back to us.

You are right about the level playing field assessment. However that has nothing to do with how or why the American companies have lost American consumers. I think, like most here that in the last 3-4 years the quality of cars that GM has been making is as good if not better than what is being imported. They started losing the quality battle with foreign competitors back in the early 80's and it took 15 years for their loyal base of consumers to dwindle to where it is now. And to expect it to climb back to it's dominance in 3-4 years just isn't gonna happen. It will take 10 years of quality cars for GM to win back most of the American public that they have lost. GM created it's image, not us (consumers). They will have to work hard to shed that image and regain an image of quality products. Personally, if it were between two evenly matched cars I would pick GM over import but until lately that was not often the case.
I'm excited with what they have been producing the last 3 years that's for sure. Two of my three favorite cars right now are GM (G8 and CTS-V).


Ultimately yes had people continued to buy American, a)we would not be in this recession ...
How do you figure?

...Oh and by the way I may start buying ford in the future because I will not buy a car from a company that is owned or partally owned by the govt. I refuse it is completely against everything I belive in.

How do you believe the government should of handled GM?

^^^ The government should have said no... just like the majority of citizens told our representatives NO on the bailouts. But just like the crooks they are they didn't listen.

How do you figure?

So for the last 20 years if everyone was buying American (not just cars) you don't think we'd be in better shape than we are now? How could we not be in better shape if we kept manufacturing jobs here? How could we not be in better shape if more people went to ma and pa shops instead of Wal-Mart? The reason I harp so much on auto company's is because after your mortgage and your kids (or yourself) going through college, it is the largest purchase we make in this country. Buying an import is like sending your kid to college in Japan, it's fine for the Japanese college and possibly for you, but that's as many people as it will benefit.

How do you believe the government should of handled GM?

Any other time in history I'd have said just say no, let them file, but as of now there are so many other companies intertwined with the Big Three that once one of them files, there will be a domino effect. If all three go down, the domino effect continues, and instead of us pulling out of this small recession now, we'll go further down and maybe pull out of it by 2020. Unfortunately right now I see no other option that is cheaper than handing them the money they need to get to 2010, not a good time to be a GM dealership.

So for the last 20 years if everyone was buying American (not just cars) you don't think we'd be in better shape than we are now? How could we not be in better shape if we kept manufacturing jobs here? How could we not be in better shape if more people went to ma and pa shops instead of Wal-Mart? The reason I harp so much on auto company's is because after your mortgage and your kids (or yourself) going through college, it is the largest purchase we make in this country. Buying an import is like sending your kid to college in Japan, it's fine for the Japanese college and possibly for you, but that's as many people as it will benefit.

No I don't, I don't think our situation would of been much different if everyone was buying American for the last 20 years. Manufacturing jobs would still have gone overseas even if American consumers stayed loyal during the years where GM was building crappy cars because GM sent those jobs overseas due to labor costs...plain and simple, no strings necessary. I am not gonna blame the UAW for bankrupting GM, that lies with Corporate, but I will blame them for pushing GM to outsource their manufacturing. Like it was mentioned earlier if GM didn't have to pay $72/per hour for labor for a guy to turn a bolt then GM wouldn't have outsourced whole assembly plants to Mexico, Canada, etc... It is business sense, all your doing is passing the blame to the consumer again. It's not OUR fault GM is where it is, they made a string of poor decisions from design of it's product line, Union negotiations, all the way to the quality of materials and location of assembly plants. Nike, Hans, and every other company didn't outsource their manufacturing capabilities because they weren't selling enough of their product, and neither did GM.


And to address the second half of your question...America's problem...our problem as a country isn't revenue it's SPENDING. Average Joe makes a buck and then spends $1.50, spending that $1.50 on an inferior American product is not gonna solve the problem, because that isn't the problem.


Any other time in history I'd have said just say no, let them file, but as of now there are so many other companies intertwined with the Big Three that once one of them files, there will be a domino effect. If all three go down, the domino effect continues, and instead of us pulling out of this small recession now, we'll go further down and maybe pull out of it by 2020. Unfortunately right now I see no other option that is cheaper than handing them the money they need to get to 2010, not a good time to be a GM dealership.

Agreed.

So for the last 20 years if everyone was buying American (not just cars) you don't think we'd be in better shape than we are now? How could we not be in better shape if we kept manufacturing jobs here? How could we not be in better shape if more people went to ma and pa shops instead of Wal-Mart? The reason I harp so much on auto company's is because after your mortgage and your kids (or yourself) going through college, it is the largest purchase we make in this country. Buying an import is like sending your kid to college in Japan, it's fine for the Japanese college and possibly for you, but that's as many people as it will benefit.



Any other time in history I'd have said just say no, let them file, but as of now there are so many other companies intertwined with the Big Three that once one of them files, there will be a domino effect. If all three go down, the domino effect continues, and instead of us pulling out of this small recession now, we'll go further down and maybe pull out of it by 2020. Unfortunately right now I see no other option that is cheaper than handing them the money they need to get to 2010, not a good time to be a GM dealership.

complete agreement here.

And for those who say that GM is providing cars that no one is buying is nonsense. You (Exclusive import buyers) may not be buying GM vehicles, but we are. And we are in the majority since GM still out sells every Foreign manufacturer in the USA by a wide margin. You are not the largest Auto manufacturer in the world when if you products are undesirable! In addition, the greatest growth for GM has been in Foreign markets, so they obviously have no problems buying GM vehicles.

The cost to build each vehicle is the issue here. No matter how desirable your vehicle is, when you lose money on each one that is the problem. Cutting cost is the issue at hand!

No I don't, I don't think our situation would of been much different if everyone was buying American for the last 20 years. Manufacturing jobs would still have gone overseas even if American consumers stayed loyal during the years where GM was building crappy cars because GM sent those jobs overseas due to labor costs...plain and simple, no strings necessary. I am not gonna blame the UAW for bankrupting GM, that lies with Corporate, but I will blame them for pushing GM to outsource their manufacturing. Like it was mentioned earlier if GM didn't have to pay $72/per hour for labor for a guy to turn a bolt then GM wouldn't have outsourced whole assembly plants to Mexico, Canada, etc... It is business sense, all your doing is passing the blame to the consumer again. It's not OUR fault GM is where it is, they made a string of poor decisions from design of it's product line, Union negotiations, all the way to the quality of materials and location of assembly plants. Nike, Hans, and every other company didn't outsource their manufacturing capabilities because they weren't selling enough of their product, and neither did GM.

We agree on this, just see the outcomes as being different. Money that stays here for R&D regardless of where the cars are outsourced too = more money here in the states. So yeah I'd rather see someone buy a Lexus that was R&D here in the US, than buy a Camry that's manufactured next door, because more money was spent here in the States. I may have exaggerated too much when I said the recession wouldn't have happened, but we would be better off than we are now.

And to address the second half of your question...America's problem...our problem as a country isn't revenue it's SPENDING. Average Joe makes a buck and then spends $1.50, spending that $1.50 on an inferior American product is not gonna solve the problem, because that isn't the problem.

Agreed, but if he threw that 1.50 back into the pool it came from that's at least an extra .50 for the government to use to bail us out. Using it on an inferior Japanese product just throws that .50 into Japan's kiddy pool to bail Toyota when and if they ever need it. Again, it's just a band aid on the overall issue, but still puts us in a better state than we are currently. Basically that .50 American cents is just gone, never to be seen again. May as well be pissing cash away, and after 20 years of doing it it's added up.

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.


I know, a little extreme, but still applies.

Niemoller was right.

"In addition, the greatest growth for GM has been in Foreign markets, so they obviously have no problems buying GM vehicles" Wait wait wait wait wait. Everyone keeps saying how unfair it is for the US to sell cars over seas, now your saying they have no problem selling over seas? So even if the taxes were higher they are selling cars no matter what, as you say, their greatst growth has been in foreign markets. Now 2+2 doesn't add up at all. Taxes are bad, if we taxed other car companies like the 3 are tax it would be fair, yet we are still selling a boat ton?

"In addition, the greatest growth for GM has been in Foreign markets, so they obviously have no problems buying GM vehicles" Wait wait wait wait wait. Everyone keeps saying how unfair it is for the US to sell cars over seas, now your saying they have no problem selling over seas? So even if the taxes were higher they are selling cars no matter what, as you say, their greatst growth has been in foreign markets. Now 2+2 doesn't add up at all. Taxes are bad, if we taxed other car companies like the 3 are tax it would be fair, yet we are still selling a boat ton?

Japan is not the complete overseas market. Japan sells a ton here but blocks our products.

bail out for banks are working!

You are not the largest Auto manufacturer in the world when if you products are undesirable! In addition, the greatest growth for GM has been in Foreign markets, so they obviously have no problems buying GM vehicles.

Just want to point out that GM got to be #1 in the world because they bought out as much of the competition as they could. I do believe that there is a big difference between building a quality line of cars that everyone will buy and buying out other car brands and adding their numbers to yours. By doing that they ended up spreading themselves so thin that they ended up running most of those companies that they bought up and burying them into the ground.

And besides the trucks and Corvette, the best cars GM has sold in the past couple decades (which were all fairly recently) either came directly from one of those overseas companies that GM of North American had nothing to do with developing, or was adapted from an existing overseas design. If you think the GTO and G8 are "American" cars, they aren't. The best cars that GM and Ford make aren't sold here, and I think if they had been for the past decade or so maybe they wouldn't be where they are now.

Just want to point out that GM got to be #1 in the world because they bought out as much of the competition as they could. I do believe that there is a big difference between building a quality line of cars that everyone will buy and buying out other car brands and adding their numbers to yours. By doing that they ended up spreading themselves so thin that they ended up running most of those companies that they bought up and burying them into the ground.

GM's greatest "overseas growth" over the last 10 years is not from buying out other companies, its new growth. And the last buy out was AM General which is a niche market. And the point I'm driving at is if the quality was so poor they would have been out of business by now. The overall quality is good and looking to be better every year. If their quality was that of a Mitsubishi or Fiat, they would have been out of business by now.

And I will blow up if I hear one more time that GM needs to build vehicles like they used to. The quality of today’s vehicles is better than any time in their history. It's like comparing the L92 cylinder heads with old Fuelly heads. Yeh, they were okay for their time but the L92's are better in every area; lighter, better flowing, better quality, more robust!

You have some good questions Spoolin. You like playing the Devils Advocate to often for my taste, but at least you have personal experience currently owning a GM vehicle. Nothings worse than hearing someone with no personal experience with a product, re-iterate internet babble or hearsay.

... The overall quality is good and looking to be better every year. If their quality was that of a Mitsubishi or Fiat, they would have been out of business by now.

Absolutely, I agree that the quality over the past few years has been on par if not better that the imports. :thumb:


You have some good questions Spoolin. You like playing the Devils Advocate to often for my taste, but at least you have personal experience currently owning a GM vehicle. Nothings worse than hearing someone with no personal experience with a product, re-iterate internet babble or hearsay.

I honestly just seem to have different opinions about everything! :biggrinan
I don't disagree just for the sake of argument or starting :turd: but I do seem to be a wrench in most people's way of thinking! :chug:

well as the late great Ronald Reagan once said "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem." All our hard earned money just being wasted it makes me sick to my stomach.

Heres another problem with the car industry....THE INTERNET!!! who's ever idea it was to publish new car invoices killed it for the dealerships. It use to be that the dealership got the car wholesale from the factory and retailed the car to the customer now because everyone knows how much the wholesale price we have to whore out our cars to the public. I still believe that we should all buy American. All 3 have stepped up the quality and warrantys. As far as electronic devices go what is made in the USA? There is my .02

Heres another problem with the car industry....THE INTERNET!!! who's ever idea it was to publish new car invoices killed it for the dealerships. It use to be that the dealership got the car wholesale from the factory and retailed the car to the customer now because everyone knows how much the wholesale price we have to whore out our cars to the public. I still believe that we should all buy American. All 3 have stepped up the quality and warrantys. As far as electronic devices go what is made in the USA? There is my .02

You do realize that because we now know the retail value of a car a dealership can't put a MNCF (Mike's new car fund) markup on a car like they HAVE done in the past right? Human beings in general are not good people, that's one of the biggest lies people have ever tried to push. If we were how do you explain the genocide that takes place around the world (ask any Bosnian, Albanian, or Serbian how good people are). That being said there are a lot more dirty car dealerships than upfront ones.

Well one thing for sure is that these bailouts are getting old real quick seems like everyone is to big to go under. It also looks like they are going to give them banks another 75 billion if i understood correctly. Then comes the end of the year to do taxes but now that we get 13 less taken out our check we will just have to pay that much back in the end. I have said it before and i will say it again the government does not want us to be rich. If everyone was rich no one would work and there would be no goods. The government is going to help out the big shots and piss on the normal american like me and you.

I kinda have to take offense to this, but let me explain why: Before we went full time with speedtweekerz 4 years ago (been in business for 7), I actually worked at the ford kansas city assembly plant where the f150 was built, and let me tell you that I earned every freakin penny I was paid there. We pumped out between 50-60 trucks an HOUR which means you work non-stop. Hell, you cant even go to the bathroom without turning on a blue light and have someone come and do your job while you're taking a piss! Plus there is only 2500.00 worth of labor in an f-150. The media has basically tried to place all the blame on the workers and the union. I will give you that the union does tend to protect the deadbeats but they have been working on that. With that said however the UAW did actually help rasie the standard of living in our country over the past 40-50 years by forcing big corporations to share the wealth with the people who actually do the work. I'll agree that these companies definitely need to get there act together, but the blame lies with management NOT the guys on the floor buidling the vehicles, that I can assure you! I guarantee you if you were to step up and do the jobs that are done on those vehicles for the 15.00 an hour they are trying to get for new hires you would say f*@# this and walk off. Hell I seen people walking off when they were getting paid 25.00 an hour. BUY AMERICAN PERIOD!!

When your neighbor doesnt have a job its only a matter of time before you lose yours!!

Sorry for the rant :chug:

Well said! Glad to see someone else stand up to that kinda ignorance

Well one thing for sure is that these bailouts are getting old real quick seems like everyone is to big to go under. It also looks like they are going to give them banks another 75 billion if i understood correctly. Then comes the end of the year to do taxes but now that we get 13 less taken out our check we will just have to pay that much back in the end. I have said it before and i will say it again the government does not want us to be rich. If everyone was rich no one would work and there would be no goods. The government is going to help out the big shots and piss on the normal american like me and you.

You know I keep hearing more and more of this from people who like to complain about this. Ya know its very easy for someone to complain after the fact about this. Truth is, this country has been careless and wreckless since the 50s and have only gotten worse. Where were the protests and demos when NAFTA was passed? Who was voted outta office after the fact? Who was it saying govt needed to fix health care but not properly because thats "Socialist"(as if we have any understanding of socialism) and made American workers more expensive. Who was it that said profit at all costs and your problems arent my problems??

WE ONLY HAVE OURSELVES TO BLAME FOR THIS!!! We let this petty politics divide us and makes us terrified of change.

Japan is not the complete overseas market. Japan sells a ton here but blocks our products.

Japan isn't the only country over seas, so where is this mega growth at? And if Japan is the only country blocking us, what about the other ohhhh 20 places we sell?

I'm not saying that I think it's fair that Japan blocks us, or taxes us. But lets not blame all of this on some fair tax by Japan when people are saying, "Gm has great growth over seas"

As a loyal GM buyer I've noticed as I go from car to car that the designs (mainly in the engine/bay) have just gotten worse and worse. Even though the cars look great it's getting to the point where I don't even want to consider buying one because doing any service to them is horrible.

Even though I think the union in all is a bad thing, I don't blame the fall of the big 3 on them entirely. Are they part of it yes.

I think it's a culmination of poor business models, more expensive labor then its competitors, pressure from the feds, declining sales in truck models and a rapid 180 by the American public that small is better. (which was brought on by the most recent fuel crisis) Also the media outlets and public perception has made it out to be foreign goods are just so much better that if you don't buy foreign you have no brain. I don't want to call any one a liar but I have read published print that has compared cars and flat out LIED in favor of foreign makes.

It's sad.

Hopefully we still have some American car suppliers in 10 years.

~Jim~

Even though I think the union in all is a bad thing, I don't blame the fall of the big 3 on them entirely. Are they part of it yes.


~Jim~

How so?! So we've reached the point where we have to think an american worker earning a living wage, health care, and a chance at retirement is a horrible thing! Im not apologizing to anyone nor are any of my relatives of others I know that are working or have retired from these factories. Without the unions we would have every last cheap trick these companies try to pull on workers. You want to see GM minus the UAW? Go down to Mexico and see their state of the art factories that have no parking lots for the workers because they dont pay them enough to buy a car.

You want someone to blame for high labor costs? Look towards the govt that has done nothing to make workers less costly unlike other countries

I'm not against an American earning a living, health care and benefits that go along with what the union promises.

If you haven't been around the union long enough then you still have reason to believe that they help more then they hurt. I've spent enough time in my industry (engineering/construction) to see how the inner working of the union works and I don't think they are necessary or looking out for the worker as much as you think they are. Were they a good thing? Yes. Are they still needed? No. We have federal bodies that mandate/inspect worker safety. Like I said the blame does not fall square on the UAW they demanded higher wages GM gave it to them over and over.

I agree with you 100% our government is dropping the ball on labor cost. If we would restrict out-sourcing and make foreign companies pay more to make it a level playing field and we'd be in better shape.

~Jim~

How so?! So we've reached the point where we have to think an american worker earning a living wage, health care, and a chance at retirement is a horrible thing! Im not apologizing to anyone nor are any of my relatives of others I know that are working or have retired from these factories. Without the unions we would have every last cheap trick these companies try to pull on workers. You want to see GM minus the UAW? Go down to Mexico and see their state of the art factories that have no parking lots for the workers because they dont pay them enough to buy a car.

You want someone to blame for high labor costs? Look towards the govt that has done nothing to make workers less costly unlike other countries

I'm not against American's earning a decent living either as long as it's on par with the type of work they do. And don't compare factories in Mexico to ones in the US and try to demonstrate that the contrasting conditions are Union relevant. If you want to compare a Union run auto plant and a non-union run one all you have to do is stay within our borders and look at some of Toyota's or Nissan's plants where the workers have VOTED NO on unionization. They are treated very well by the companies and have all the benefits and advantages that those of the UAW have and in some cases have more.
And I AM UNION...and I can safely say that in some industries unions are not necessary anymore because of government oversight in those areas.

I'm not against American's earning a decent living either as long as it's on par with the type of work they do. And don't compare factories in Mexico to ones in the US and try to demonstrate that the contrasting conditions are Union relevant. If you want to compare a Union run auto plant and a non-union run one all you have to do is stay within our borders and look at some of Toyota's or Nissan's plants where the workers have VOTED NO on unionization. They are treated very well by the companies and have all the benefits and advantages that those of the UAW have and in some cases have more.
And I AM UNION...and I can safely say that in some industries unions are not necessary anymore because of government oversight in those areas.

Well apparently not everyone at Toyota got the message. Because the workers that build Toyota products in this country are UAW. Not all of them, but some of their top products like the Camry and the Tacoma are built by union workers. Govt oversight hasnt fixed health care in america, govt oversight hasnt stopped companies from taking american jobs and moving them outta the U.S. Yeah, it may make the work place safer and less hazardous. But Govt oversight hasnt fixed these issues and if they did I think we'd see an auto industry that can be more prosperous

^^^ I have yet to see to my knowledge one thing government oversight has helped. And frankly I'm sick of them telling us all how we SHOULD do things.

As a loyal GM buyer I've noticed as I go from car to car that the designs (mainly in the engine/bay) have just gotten worse and worse. Even though the cars look great it's getting to the point where I don't even want to consider buying one because doing any service to them is horrible.

Even though I think the union in all is a bad thing, I don't blame the fall of the big 3 on them entirely. Are they part of it yes.

I think it's a culmination of poor business models, more expensive labor then its competitors, pressure from the feds, declining sales in truck models and a rapid 180 by the American public that small is better. (which was brought on by the most recent fuel crisis) Also the media outlets and public perception has made it out to be foreign goods are just so much better that if you don't buy foreign you have no brain. I don't want to call any one a liar but I have read published print that has compared cars and flat out LIED in favor of foreign makes.

It's sad.

Hopefully we still have some American car suppliers in 10 years.

~Jim~

BOLD is a BIG factor. There simply isn't as much profit in smaller, cheaper cars. I remember seeing where GM cleared around $10K on a SUV/Truck and only a few hundred $$$ on the cheap small cars.

Well apparently not everyone at Toyota got the message. Because the workers that build Toyota products in this country are UAW. Not all of them, but some of their top products like the Camry and the Tacoma are built by union workers. Govt oversight hasnt fixed health care in america, govt oversight hasnt stopped companies from taking american jobs and moving them outta the U.S. Yeah, it may make the work place safer and less hazardous. But Govt oversight hasnt fixed these issues and if they did I think we'd see an auto industry that can be more prosperous

The only UAW workers assembling for Toyota are working in a GM joint venture plant- unless something has changed. That was an agreement that was made a long time ago and they are trying to get out of it. They are moving more and more production of the Tacoma to Mexico and Corolla to Canada.

Japan isn't the only country over seas, so where is this mega growth at? And if Japan is the only country blocking us, what about the other ohhhh 20 places we sell?

I'm not saying that I think it's fair that Japan blocks us, or taxes us. But lets not blame all of this on some fair tax by Japan when people are saying, "Gm has great growth over seas"

China has been very big for GM, and they are trying very hard in India. South America also does well.

Fact is that Japan is the number one importer if automobiles and parts to the US yet doesn't allow fair trade in their country. You were commenting

"Everyone keeps saying how unfair it is for the US to sell cars over seas, now your saying they have no problem selling over seas?"

And my point is that not all overseas countries are unfair to the US with trade. We have a Favored Nation agreement with China. The biggest problem in the automotive industry for the US is Japan- unfair trade, currency manipulation and our own government.

You know I keep hearing more and more of this from people who like to complain about this. Ya know its very easy for someone to complain after the fact about this. Truth is, this country has been careless and wreckless since the 50s and have only gotten worse. Where were the protests and demos when NAFTA was passed? Who was voted outta office after the fact? Who was it saying govt needed to fix health care but not properly because thats "Socialist"(as if we have any understanding of socialism) and made American workers more expensive. Who was it that said profit at all costs and your problems arent my problems??

WE ONLY HAVE OURSELVES TO BLAME FOR THIS!!! We let this petty politics divide us and makes us terrified of change.

How are we to blame? For one your never going to change government and thats that. I will tell you right now i take no blame you can take the blame but i think everyone has the right to complain about this ordeal.

The only UAW workers assembling for Toyota are working in a GM joint venture plant- unless something has changed. That was an agreement that was made a long time ago and they are trying to get out of it. They are moving more and more production of the Tacoma to Mexico and Corolla to Canada.

Yeah that's the NUMMI plant in California (vibe/matrix). The Camry workers in G-Town next door are not union at all. My step dad used to be a big wig there and said that Toyota would pack and move if the employees ever brought in the union. Anyway, I've also had some friends work there and in talking to people found out that some people had been a "temp" for that plant for 13 years (that's the extreme end of it). Not sure if they just got lost in the paper shuffle, or if they have quit and gotten rehired over and over, but something didn't sound right to me there.

Oh off topic a second GM and Toyota have worked together on quite a few cars. The Geo Prizm was a Corolla, and Toyota sold the Cavalier in Japan, and since the Cavalier went away they have worked together on this Vibe/Matrix thing at NUMMI.

The only UAW workers assembling for Toyota are working in a GM joint venture plant- unless something has changed. That was an agreement that was made a long time ago and they are trying to get out of it. They are moving more and more production of the Tacoma to Mexico and Corolla to Canada.

Correct, Ive never heard any such discussion of removing the production from cali

For one your never going to change government and thats that.

That quote right there is why we're to blame. We expect nothing from them, they have no consequences if they screw up, they divide us into camps so we can blame the other side for our problems. If we want to be apathetic towards our govt and let the extremists run the country then bail outs it what we get in return

That quote right there is why we're to blame. We expect nothing from them, they have no consequences if they screw up, they divide us into camps so we can blame the other side for our problems. If we want to be apathetic towards our govt and let the extremists run the country then bail outs it what we get in return

But wait i thought that is why we elected Obama, for change remember?

But wait i thought that is why we elected Obama, for change remember?

I never thought that, nor did Obama ever claim that. No great president in history has ever not made note several times for the assistance of the citizens.

I think Chrysler has done a heck of a good job producing cars unlike GM. But they exist on the same unfair playing field as GM and are going to fall prey to the harsh and unfair laws that go against them running in this country. Dont get me wrong GM is my all time favorite company

The problem is that Chrysler also made crap for a long time, and people hold on to that.

I never thought that, nor did Obama ever claim that.

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

See quote in banner at top of page.

This wont be the last time this happens. Wait and see how many banks fold in the next 2 years that borrowed money.

Unfortunatley this country has lost sight of what our governments function is/should be. I agree completley that we as a whole (regardless of what party you support) do not hold our elected officials accountable for screw ups. Instead we piss and moan and elect the garabage from the other party. It is starting to remind me of that Simpsons episode where the two aliens run for president. I think of events in our countries past where we took to the streets for less offenses, yet nothing for these almost fairy tale like expenditures?

Regardless back to the original post, failing companies need to be allowed to fail. That may seem redundant but apparently not enough. If a buisness is failing there is a reason. You can't throw money at your problems and hope they go away thats stupidity and for some reason the government bought into it. This should not be a suprise nor sholud the rest of the money that does not get paid back from the other companys who took it. I see this happening and I can't help but wonder how high my taxes are going to be in the near future.

~Jim~

I never thought that, nor did Obama ever claim that.

What are you talking about didnt you watch his campaign. That was his slogan "Chang We Need"

What are you talking about didnt you watch his campaign. That was his slogan "Chang We Need"


I worked with him during that time. I know youre not that simple minded and you know he would never suggest that he alone will fix the auto industry

Unfortunatley this country has lost sight of what our governments function is/should be. I agree completley that we as a whole (regardless of what party you support) do not hold our elected officials accountable for screw ups. Instead we piss and moan and elect the garabage from the other party. It is starting to remind me of that Simpsons episode where the two aliens run for president. I think of events in our countries past where we took to the streets for less offenses, yet nothing for these almost fairy tale like expenditures?

Regardless back to the original post, failing companies need to be allowed to fail. That may seem redundant but apparently not enough. If a buisness is failing there is a reason. You can't throw money at your problems and hope they go away thats stupidity and for some reason the government bought into it. This should not be a suprise nor sholud the rest of the money that does not get paid back from the other companys who took it. I see this happening and I can't help but wonder how high my taxes are going to be in the near future.

~Jim~


In most cases yes, But I say sell the companies rather than letting them fail. And while I think the car companies have had some poor management and made poor choices, I think that we must also recognize that the playing field has been somewhat unfair for American car companies to profit. Its not the guys building the cars they dont like, its the currency rate and health care and the fact that working Americans arent raking in the money to buy their products

This is such Fucking Bullshit. I payed over $15,000 in taxes last year and for what? Anyone want to start donating funds, i have a plan. Im going to start buiying up all the national add space i can, and try to convince people to completely boycott Chrysler, ITS NOT OK TO STEAL FROM TAXPAYERS. And also boycott AIG.

It is starting to remind me of that Simpsons episode where the two aliens run for president.

That's exactly what that episode was poking at. It was a satire of the state of government in the US.

I worked with him during that time. I know youre not that simple minded and you know he would never suggest that he alone will fix the auto industry

No i am pretty sure he wont fix much. You should probably work with him more and give him some of your thoughts. He sure knows how to throw away are tax dollars. I have nothing against him but this is not the change i thought he would bring.

No i am pretty sure he wont fix much. You should probably work with him more and give him some of your thoughts. He sure knows how to throw away are tax dollars. I have nothing against him but this is not the change i thought he would bring.


Bush is responsible for the bailout, it had nothing to do with Obama, he just got this crap dropped into his lap, he inherited it along with the oval office. I dont think he just said they could have it either, its legalities it sounds like.

Bush is responsible for the bailout, it had nothing to do with Obama, he just got this crap dropped into his lap, he inherited it along with the oval office. I dont think he just said they could have it either, its legalities it sounds like.

Which bailout are you speaking of? The automotive bailouts are 95% Obama.

Which bailout are you speaking of? The automotive bailouts are 95% Obama.

Yeah and that touches no where near the 700billion+ that financial industry has received. The auto industry is something we can all understand so there fore we complain much more openly about it and give it more attention. Few of us know enough about the industry really screwing us over

No i am pretty sure he wont fix much. You should probably work with him more and give him some of your thoughts. He sure knows how to throw away are tax dollars. I have nothing against him but this is not the change i thought he would bring.

He hasnt been in office 5 months yet. I think we're exaggerating a little bit over that. In the end, thats more of an ideological difference rather then legitimate. I think the financial industry deserve a little more outrage then the govt and auto execs. They lied to us for years and stole billions of our 401ks and invested money we earned and are still walking freely among us and are still trying to steal more.

Few of us know enough about the industry really screwing us over

You mean the government?

You mean the government?

lol..cute! O yes, this horrible,oppressed country we live in where we have to watch our HDTVs, and videos on you tube while waiting on pizza guy to show up.

Other countries are lucky and have bombs dropped on them night after night and countless citizens are murdered by militant soldiers while their govt tells them to piss off. Please, our govt is too unproductive to collectively screw us. You give them too much credit.

Yeah and that touches no where near the 700billion+ that financial industry has received. The auto industry is something we can all understand so there fore we complain much more openly about it and give it more attention. Few of us know enough about the industry really screwing us over

The 700B given to banks is actually going to do something. The 100B that we will end up giving the automakers will never be seen again in any form. Obama is throwing OUR money away because he doesn't know what else to do.

Other countries are lucky and have bombs dropped on them night after night and countless citizens are murdered by militant soldiers while their govt tells them to piss off. Please, our govt is too unproductive to collectively screw us. You give them too much credit.

I think you meant to say incompetent, not unproductive.

It is our government's incompetence that has screwed us. Our fate will be far worse than those other countries you speak of.

The dems had to throw more money at the car companies so that they could claim that they 'tried' to help the union employees. The don't care that the money is gone, it is not theirs, it is ours. That is the best kind of bribe/vote money, it costs them nothing.

The 700B given to banks is actually going to do something. The 100B that we will end up giving the automakers will never be seen again in any form. Obama is throwing OUR money away because he doesn't know what else to do.

Oh, You mean the 700billion that was asked for with no strings attached and with no oversight. Kinda like the stock we were given and told by the banks that they were solid investments that would get us our money back then we found out that they lied to us and were only worth 65% and declining of what we were told they were worth. They did something with it alright, like take and blow it on bathroom remodeling and bonuses for a job terribly done.



Our fate will be far worse than those other countries you speak of.

What the hell does that even mean?:eyes:

The dems had to throw more money at the car companies so that they could claim that they 'tried' to help the union employees. The don't care that the money is gone, it is not theirs, it is ours. That is the best kind of bribe/vote money, it costs them nothing.

Somehow I bet your opinion of all this would be polar opposite if a rep. was in office doing the same thing

The Dems and Reps are overall the same. The finger pointing at the other party is just their so we think the other party is to blame, when in reality its a diversion to keep all of their power grabbing under cover. They may not go into this aware of fact, but the end result is the same!

lol..cute! O yes, this horrible,oppressed country we live in where we have to watch our HDTVs, and videos on you tube while waiting on pizza guy to show up.

Other countries are lucky and have bombs dropped on them night after night and countless citizens are murdered by militant soldiers while their govt tells them to piss off. Please, our govt is too unproductive to collectively screw us. You give them too much credit.

Oh please don't start with that B.S. do you even read some of the bills being presented to the house by dems and repub's alike? Bills supporting a socialist agenda and nation by the Obama administration? Clowns like Pelosi, or do you only read the main stream leftist media that only shows one side of the story? This government has gone unchecked too long with no consequences it is time for a real change, and nothing any of the criminals in office could ever provide. I did not vote for ANY of the bailouts, nor obama. I'm pretty certain that our representatives still work for us the citizens, however they seem to make decisions against what the citizens want and with no consequence.

Oh please don't start with that B.S. do you even read some of the bills being presented to the house by dems and repub's alike? Bills supporting a socialist agenda and nation by the Obama administration? Clowns like Pelosi, or do you only read the main stream leftist media that only shows one side of the story? This government has gone unchecked too long with no consequences it is time for a real change, and nothing any of the criminals in office could ever provide. I did not vote for ANY of the bailouts, nor obama. I'm pretty certain that our representatives still work for us the citizens, however they seem to make decisions against what the citizens want and with no consequence.

Oh yes, Canada and U.K. are just such socialist tyrannical countries. I mean not a day goes by where the people arent out protesting their socialist health care and flocking to the U.S. to get away from it. You say its a socialist agenda and yet the majority of the country disagrees. You have never lived under a socialist govt so you are highly unqualified to judge that.

So if youre so anti-socialist then you better call your family and make sure they know your not allowed to use Social Security nor are any of you allowed to use medicaid, or unemployment. And remember no calling the police or Fire dept, us mail, or using public schools. These are all socialist and if you truly want to combat socialism then you are no longer allowed to use these socialist programs

Oh yes, Canada and U.K. are just such socialist tyrannical countries. I mean not a day goes by where the people arent out protesting their socialist health care and flocking to the U.S. to get away from it. You say its a socialist agenda and yet the majority of the country disagrees. You have never lived under a socialist govt so you are highly unqualified to judge that.

So if youre so anti-socialist then you better call your family and make sure they know your not allowed to use Social Security nor are any of you allowed to use medicaid, or unemployment. And remember no calling the police or Fire dept, us mail, or using public schools. These are all socialist and if you truly want to combat socialism then you are no longer allowed to use these socialist programs

No they are not socialist programs. Why don't you re-read my post before you start spewing garbage. If you think that our government especially the Obama administration is the greatest thing that ever hit the United states, you are sadly mistaken and only another part of the problem. I guess you give up on requiring our government to follow the constitution then too?

edit: And while you are at it, why don't you ask some canadians how their great socialistic health care works? Everyone single person I've talked to absolutely hates it.

Too political, closed.