Automotive News, Media & Press - President Obama To Nationalize California Emission Standard & Stengthen CAFE

U.S. to Issue Tougher Fuel Standards for Automobiles

JOHN M. BRODER
Published: May 18, 2009

WASHINGTON —The Obama administration will issue new national emissions and mileage requirements for cars and light trucks to resolve a long-running conflict among the states, the federal government and auto manufacturers, industry officials said Monday.

President Obama will announce as early as Tuesday that he will combine California’s tough new auto-emissions rules with the existing corporate average fuel economy standard to create a single new national standard, the officials said. As a result, cars and light trucks sold in the United States will be roughly 30 percent cleaner and more fuel-efficient by 2016.

The White House would not divulge details, but environmental advocates and industry officials briefed on the program said that the president would grant California’s longstanding request to implement its tailpipe standards. Thirteen other states and the District of Columbia have said they intend to apply the same rules. That request had been denied by the Bush administration but has been under review by top Obama administration officials since January.

Yet Mr. Obama is planning to go further, effectively issuing a single mileage rule for both fuel economy and emissions that matches California’s strictest-in-the-nation standard.

Under that new standard, the national fleet mileage rule for cars would be roughly 42 miles a gallon in 2016. Light trucks would have to meet a fleet average of slightly more than 26.2 miles a gallon by 2016.

“This is a very big deal,” said Daniel Becker of the Safe Climate Campaign, a group that has pushed for tougher mileage and emissions standards with the goal of curbing the heat-trapping gases that have been linked to global warming. “This is the single biggest step the American government has ever taken to cut greenhouse-gas emissions.”

Industry officials spoke on condition of anonymity about the program because they said they did not want to comment publicly in advance of the White House announcement.

The current standards are 27.5 miles a gallon for cars and about 24 miles a gallon for trucks. The new mileage and emissions rules will gradually tighten, beginning with 2011 models, until they reach the 2016 standards.

The auto industry is not expected to challenge the rule, which provides two things they have long asked for: certainty on a timetable and a single national standard.

The administration has been under a self-imposed June 30 deadline to decide whether to grant California’s application to impose new emissions rules. President Obama became personally involved in the issue because he is also trying to find a way to rescue the American automobile companies from their financial crisis.

One top industry official said the administration wanted to get the new mileage rules in place before General Motors makes a decision on a bankruptcy filing, which could happen by the end of the month.

The new rules also provide some certainty for Chrysler, which is already under bankruptcy protection, so that it can plan its future models.

Mr. Obama directed the Environmental Protection Agency in January to reconsider the Bush administration’s past rejection of the California application. The president also instructed the Transportation Department to draw up rules to supplement a 2007 law requiring a 40 percent improvement in gas mileage for autos and light trucks by 2020.

The Bush administration failed to write any regulations to enforce the 2007 law.

Daniel J. Weiss, an environmental policy analyst at the liberal Center for American Progress, said that under the White House plan, California would retain the ability to set its own emissions standards in the future when the current program expires.

He also said that the new administration program was very close in language and intent to a provision in the climate change and energy bill now before the House Energy and Commerce Committee. That bill calls for a "harmonization" of the California and federal regulatory programs to provide a nationwide standard.

He said the standards were being written so that the car companies would already be on track to meet the standards set in the first few years of the program. The cars and trucks that will be sold in that period are already in the design phase. But starting in 2013 and 2014, the new rules will begin to bite, Mr. Weiss said.

"The rubber really meets the road in 2014," he said.

Mr. Obama has been thinking about the future of the American automobile industry for years. In 2006, during his second year as a United States senator, he co-sponsored a bill to raise fuel economy standards and another to encourage the use of alternative fuels.

During the presidential campaign, he gave a speech in Detroit chastising the American automobile industry for doing too little to reduce the nation’s dependence on foreign oil and to improve the vehicles’ fuel efficiency.

"The auto industry’s refusal to act for so long has left it mired in a predicament for which there is no easy way out," Mr. Obama said.

That inaction was one factor that brought General Motors and Chrysler to their current dire state, requiring billions in federal bailouts and Chrysler’s forced marriage to Fiat to survive.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo152x23.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/business/19emissions.html?_r=2&hp)

President Obama Joins America’s CAFE Society

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/obama-346x350.jpg

By Robert Farago
May 18, 2009

Politics is the art of the possible. In other words, it’s the art of manipulating expectations, not facing reality. In other other words, Barack Obama didn’t achieve the highest office in the land by doing things. He became president by promising to do things. And now that he’s actually got to do stuff, Obama must resort to the politician’s best weapon in their endless fight to reconcile expectations and reality (i.e. special interestes): loopholes. Those exquisite exceptions that allow those supposedly affected by a piece of legislation to avoid the law’s intent—to the point where you wonder why anyone bothered to write it in the first place. Only the answer to that question is obvious: so that the politicians who crafted the law could be seen to be doing something that meets with public approval. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the new CAFE standards.

Let me cut to the chase: the feds could mandate a 100 mpg fleet-wide corporate average fleet economy (CAFE) standard and the carmakers would meet it. All they’d have to do is do whatever they have to do to not do it while appearing like they’ve either done it or gave it a damn good try, then pay the damn fine (if necessary), pass on the cost to their consumers and get on with it. Again.

Which means that today’s pre-announcement announcement that the federal government will eventually adopt California’s CAFE standards—42mpg for cars, 26.2mpg for trucks by 2016—is meaningless. You know, in the real world. In the political sphere, it will be a major victory for environmentalists, supporters of the president, Chrysler and GM.

Yes, there is that. The president will soon have new CAFE standards AND control of two car companies that can build the vehicles that conform to those standards. I mean, they’ll have to do that, right? Otherwise, we could be in the strange situation where a taxpayer-funded automaker has to pay a large penalty to the taxpayers, from the taxpayer’s money, for failing to meet a standard set by the government who owns them.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not one of those people who worries that Chrysler and GM will be forced to build Nancy Pelosi-mobiles. I’m one of those who knows it.

Ah ha! But you just said the automakers won’t meet the standards! They’ll only pretend to. Yes, and to pretend to do it, they’ll build the Volt, an electric minivan or suchlike and pretend that they’re building the vehicles that will right the turtled ship, meet or exceed all federal regulations, save the planet and reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Meanwhile, they’ll sell other things.

Or not. I mean, what difference does it make? Both car companies are practically 501c3 non-profit charities as it is. Any business that owes its existence to subsidies, noblesse oblige and tax credits is not going to spend too much time worrying about little things like return on investment and long-term profitability. Why should they?

Sorry. I got distracted. The meat of the matter: the new CAFE standards go hand-in-glove with the $100b or so doled-out (literally) to Chrysler and GM; a “fresh start” for a “clean future” with “green jobs” using “American ingenuity” and “innovative technology.”

It wasn’t planned that way. It just happened. Like I said, the art of the possible: drawing from the temper of the times and a farrago of common hopes to create a palatable policy platform for those who need to stay on message. And for those who need to build cars? “Flexibility.” Automotive News [sub]:

The proposal to run from 2012-2016 would maintain a single national standard for fuel economy and give automakers flexibility for meeting it, people with knowledge of the plan said.

The same would apply to anyone with knowledge of any government plan. This is not pure cynicism. This is cynicism based on historical precedent. Lest we forget, the last SUV boom was fueled by CAFE standards that allowed Chrysler to classify the PT Cruiser as a truck.

There is no reason to believe that the new CAFE regs will be any more stringently applied than existing laws, or if they are, that manufacturers will be any less likely to game the system to allow them to build the more profitable vehicles that people want to buy.

That said, again, this time ’round we’ll have two automobile manufacturers who will no longer care [that much] about building the vehicles that people want to buy. So they might NOT cheat. Which will screw it up for everyone else, Ford included.

Either that or they’ll force all automakers to build more fuel-efficient vehicles that will save the planet and reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Oh, and be just as safe as current cars and trucks. After all, there are no limits to human ingenuity.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/editorial-president-obama-joins-americas-cafe-society/

In Florida they stopped doing SMOG and Emission testing in the early 2000s. Does this mean they could possibly bring it back?

In Florida they stopped doing SMOG and Emission testing in the early 2000s. Does this mean they could possibly bring it back?

If the Feds adopt the California rules to the letter, your answer is YES. Visual inspections would be implemented as well.

What the f*ck if I wanted to live under so many rules and people telling me what to drive I'd be in California. The government should not be allowed to nationalize sh*t like this. I choose what I want to drive, and I have no problem that it gets horrible gas mileage and makes tree huggers cry to sleep. This is a complete joke, I seriously hate Barrack H. Obama.
-Joel

As a floridian, I'm officially worried. :bang:

What the f*ck if I wanted to live under so many rules and people telling me what to drive I'd be in California. The government should not be allowed to nationalize sh*t like this. I choose what I want to drive, and I have no problem that it gets horrible gas mileage and makes tree huggers cry to sleep. This is a complete joke, I seriously hate Barrack H. Obama.
-Joel
I hear that. You know I voted for Obama(flame on, I wasn't a huge fan but McCain/Palin ticket was looking worst at the time). I want my fucking vote back I swear to god he does nothing he said he's going to do(all politicians do this but complete 180s isn't normal). A borderline useless war, an economy in the toilet and about to get flushed and all those fucking hippies can think about is wasting time on emissions/gas mileage bull shit.

this is what people get for not asking "what?" and/or "how?" when BO said things were going to "change."

I hear that. You know I voted for Obama(flame on, I wasn't a huge fan but McCain/Palin ticket was looking worst at the time). I want my fucking vote back I swear to god he does nothing he said he's going to do(all politicians do this but complete 180s isn't normal). A borderline useless war, an economy in the toilet and about to get flushed and all those fucking hippies can think about is wasting time on emissions/gas mileage bull shit.
:hail::hail:couldn't have said it better!:hail::hail:

As a floridian, I'm officially worried. :bang:

I'm with you on this one.
This kind of sh*t should be vote ok by the peo....oh why bother the sheep look at this guy like the second coming of Christ. I cannot understand why they want states to follow the guidelines of California. I'm assuming they won't be doing emissions on older vehicles? If my car gets within a mile of the sniffer I'll fail. Even then I still won't be in any hear to change it to follow Cali law.
-Joel

I guess it's time to start developing gas mileage oriented performance parts for the Aveo! Bob

These are all slowly implemented things and I dont think its all that bad of an idea. Yeah it sux but I dont think its as horrible as we all think. Unless what we are saying is that there are no fast cars in Califonia or anywhere else that there are higher fuel standards

Ok it's great what's there now but when 2016 comes around I'm sure cars like the Ss, ZR1, Viper, will be thing of the past. For automakers to stick with the fleet mpg set they can't afford running high horsepower V8s. The government ain't instituting their standard, they are using that of California. I'm not feeling a law from another state to be nationalized then affects me. Let that crap be the californian problem, they chose their own politicians.
-Joel

Ok it's great what's there now but when 2016 comes around I'm sure cars like the Ss, ZR1, Viper, will be thing of the past. For automakers to stick with the fleet mpg set they can't afford running high horsepower V8s. The government ain't instituting their standard, they are using that of California. I'm not feeling a law from another state to be nationalized then affects me. Let that crap be the californian problem, they chose their own politicians.
-Joel

I agree, but hopefully no inspections will become national law so our cars are safe. It will be an awful shame if it kills off the future Vettes/Vipers of the world though.

Um I want to know when I can vote against this? I've never voted on a thing in my life but I would def. vote no thanks on something like this. CA sucks ass.

I have the feeling if something like this passed it would affect new cars only I hope. FL residents would be pissed, anyone know the official reason why emissions were dropped down here? You can't just make a nationwide change like this any not expect a couple million pissed off people if they have to suddenly smog there older automobiles.

F' this new idea. The more the feds push, the more the states will push back. Montana, Alaska and Texas are already pushing back, more states will join them. The federal government isn't there to tell the states what to do, the federal government is there to help protect the country as a whole. When is enough enough?

Anyone with half a brain knows that global warming is a farce. Trying to tie this with global warming should be like a big slap in the face to all of you.

I never trusted BO because I am one of those people that asked 'how' and 'what' when he talked about change. I'm amazed at how many people said that they wish they could take their votes back now.

Problem is even if they put things to a vote it will still pass. All obamas got to say is that it's part of change, and people will pretty much give up their freedoms. I honestly believe this is going to far with the entire "fleet thing". I think it should just be 2 or 3 cars from their fleet must meet the mpg requirements. That way your not forcing the citizens to by a car "you" (u.s. government) believe they should buy. This sh*t is just another way for them to pretty much tell you what to do.
-Joel

some of you guys might find some comfort in this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8bbrXnYJOo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosear ch%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3D10th%2Bamendment%26rlz%3D1W1SUN A%5Fen%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2D8%26ei%3Dxx8SSqKHG&feature=player_embedded

I'm glad our new emperor has taken a liking to his power.

Wiping his butt with the law when it suits him (Chrysler bond holders), and on the other hand creating new laws to destroy more and more civil liberty when it suits his irrational religious belief in man-made global warming.

I hope all current production is completely exempt from the MPG requirement and annual inspections.

They are just making life more expensive for everyone in a time period where the econ is doing bad. Smooth move!

My state had inspections but stopped because they did nothing other than cost people more money while not improving safety.

Great, so this fucker is going to make me sell my car... LOL, it would never pass any emissions testing. :(


Let's see where this goes.

Not only will are cars not pass but some people can barely afford fuel, people are driving their cars into the ground because everything is so tight with the economy. I see more rusted out, bald tires, no muffler civics everyday. If they make those standards national this is not helping alot of people.

id LOVE to be running open LTs running methanol or nitromethane and be at a stop light next to obama's limo i would set the line lock and run through 5 gears burning all the rubber on my rears since it would be worth $300/2 tires. let him inhale my thoughts.

someone needs to take their diesel truck and blow their exhaust into his face

These are all slowly implemented things and I dont think its all that bad of an idea. Yeah it sux but I dont think its as horrible as we all think. Unless what we are saying is that there are no fast cars in Califonia or anywhere else that there are higher fuel standards
\

Have you ever lived on Cali Buddy?

Nothing but rice and crotchrockets.

The fast cars are all lambos and ferrari's hope you got a lotta cash to support your car hobby

F**K California I cant wait til it falls off in the ocean

\

Have you ever lived on Cali Buddy?

Nothing but rice and crotchrockets.

The fast cars are all lambos and ferrari's hope you got a lotta cash to support your car hobby

F**K California I cant wait til it falls off in the ocean

Exactly. You can pretty much give up modding if things get worse, so then why the fuck would I stay here? One of the reasons I live here (South Florida) is because of my car...

Fuck Cali too! Beautiful state! If you don't like modding cars!

Haha I need to find someone who sells stickers.
This is not needed. I voted for Obama and am still a fan, but get the govt off of my lead foot.

id LOVE to be running open LTs running methanol or nitromethane and be at a stop light next to obama's limo i would set the line lock and run through 5 gears burning all the rubber on my rears since it would be worth $300/2 tires. let him inhale my thoughts.

someone needs to take their diesel truck and blow their exhaust into his face

:jest: :jest:


that's one way of letting your politicians know where you stand.

I can guarantee you that Texas and a few other states won't allow this to happen (Utah, Montana, Alaska, hopefully Florida... I wish I could put Missouri with this list but can't). States are getting more and more fed up with the Fed telling them what to do, which isn't the Fed's role (according to that old document that doesn't mean anything anymore... the constitution :eyes: )

As soon as a state denies to uphold this mandate you can bet I'll be moving there... Texas here I come

this is the exact reason why i didnt vote for that piece of shit obama. if i wanted to live under all these rules and regulations id go live in a middle eastern country. obamas worthless. id rather have bush back han have him in the white house. i seriously hope he gets impeached or something of that nature. millions without jobs and losing there homes and transportation and living in the streets. but all they car about is the damn exhaust you put on ure car

Now is not the time to start this crock of shit! All its gonna do is pull money back to there sticky paws. Republicans go for oil, Democrats spread their money amongst their lil green friends like al gore who was a major push for e85. Most of the diesel manufacturers in over the road trucks have gave the middle finger to obama and his adminstation of cock suckers. Democrats are going to try and control as much as they can and its gonna happen.

In Florida they stopped doing SMOG and Emission testing in the early 2000s. Does this mean they could possibly bring it back?

They can't change regs for cars that have already been built. It's not like your 2002 model year car will become illegal just because it can't meet the 2016 MPG standards. All this talk is for NEW cars coming out, not the stuff that's already been built.

I doubt that CA-style state emissions inspection testing would be madated nationwide. Just think about the low population areas of the country, I mean, where is a county in northern Montana going to get the sort of cash needed to setup test facilities like those found in southern CA?

Honestly, the worst thing that can happen is that our cars will be forced to meet the emissions standards that they were built to acheive in the first place. But for areas/states without inspections, it's going to take a lot of cash to get those programs going. I don't see the fed coming up with that cash for each and every county of each and every state, so my guess is that enforcement/testing will be left up to the descretion of the states like it is today.

Fed will only mandate certain nationwide regs for new cars being sold. That's what I take from this news.

:jest: :jest:


that's one way of letting your politicians know where you stand.

I can guarantee you that Texas and a few other states won't allow this to happen (Utah, Montana, Alaska, hopefully Florida... I wish I could put Missouri with this list but can't). States are getting more and more fed up with the Fed telling them what to do, which isn't the Fed's role (according to that old document that doesn't mean anything anymore... the constitution :eyes: )

As soon as a state denies to uphold this mandate you can bet I'll be moving there... Texas here I come


So Texas will rebel over higher emissions standards lol? After all this countries gone through this decade thats where they draw the line

I don't care about what they do to CAFE, although I think it will just force us to keep our old cars instead of buying somthing that we won't enjoy. Sure, the technology is there to make a super high mpg car, but it just so happens that not everyone wants t drive a 100hp toaster on wheels.
As far as adopting one states emissions laws as the national standard, that is typical big government liberal crap at its finest.
None of you should EVER believe campaign promises. People say whatever they need to to get elected and then revert back to their true colors. Gues what, the people elceted the third most liberal member of the Senate to be our president.

God help us......

:rolleyes: as for the tree-huggers, Californian's, and urban America, they love for this kind of CHANGE. They love to see everyone else pay high gas prices and not be able to drive our "wastefull" polluting gas guzzling automobiles(family vehicles, work trucks, and sports cars) simply because these things are not necisities for them. . . and you know all of this CHANGE is just making our problem of inflation a lot worse. . .

\

Have you ever lived on Cali Buddy?

Nothing but rice and crotchrockets.

The fast cars are all lambos and ferrari's hope you got a lotta cash to support your car hobby

F**K California I cant wait til it falls off in the ocean

I never suggested I knew very much about life in California. I simply asked a question. I dont worry much about it because I think this is just "knee-jerk" type stuff meant to appeal to the "good ol" boys that never liked the president to begin with or already carry a bad attitude towards govt already. I dont want to see fast cars go a way at all and I dont think they will. I think they will evolve over time the same way the 60s muscle cars did

I doubt that CA-style state emissions inspection testing would be madated nationwide. Just think about the low population areas of the country, I mean, where is a county in northern Montana going to get the sort of cash needed to setup test facilities like those found in southern CA?


By making companies go out of business and then through a forced bail-out they could do it...like with the banks.

They can't change regs for cars that have already been built. It's not like your 2002 model year car will become illegal just because it can't meet the 2016 MPG standards. All this talk is for NEW cars coming out, not the stuff that's already been built.

I doubt that CA-style state emissions inspection testing would be madated nationwide. Just think about the low population areas of the country, I mean, where is a county in northern Montana going to get the sort of cash needed to setup test facilities like those found in southern CA?

Honestly, the worst thing that can happen is that our cars will be forced to meet the emissions standards that they were built to acheive in the first place. But for areas/states without inspections, it's going to take a lot of cash to get those programs going. I don't see the fed coming up with that cash for each and every county of each and every state, so my guess is that enforcement/testing will be left up to the descretion of the states like it is today.

Fed will only mandate certain nationwide regs for new cars being sold. That's what I take from this news.

This is what I got out of it too now that you point it out. I don't think they can make a car that was/had passed emissions change all of the sudden, they would have to be talking about the newer cars to be comming out.

This will affect new cars only. The thing that will affect the used car market is if they make the emissions tests standard in all states.

All in all this is a good idea, it will make the U.S. less dependent on foreign oil, will give us the gas mileage we have been asking for(as a society) and will still allow car manufacturers to offer Corvettes and Camaro's...just with a bigger fee for gas guzzling.

The EU has been doing this for years, every car has to pass MOT to get registered and to be driven on roads. This is a good idea and shows both initiative and planning on the countries part.

The president has nothing to do with this bill, it isn't his fault and it isn't even his idea...it is the countries idea...Obama isn't going to show up on your doorstep and point a gun at you saying sell your F-Body...however he will try to keep as prices in check, and keep fuel mileage up.

Everyone always thinks that the next law or new leader is going to ruin the country, and take away your liberties...I see this as the country we take for granted trying to clean up its image, and its mark on the world.

Agree or disagree I do not care...just know that this has been a long time coming. It is a good idea on paper, a good idea for the nation, and it helps our countries image to the rest of the world...which is what we need now more than ever, the America of yesteryear is gone, and it will never return...we are no longer a country of raw producers, we are a service economy where education takes precedence over the ability to produce raw finished goods.

/rant
/sermon on Economic climate in the Industrialized West :secret2:

Start protesting. Contact your representatives.

bryan921ss:"Obama isn't going to show up on your doorstep and point a gun at you saying sell your F-Body..."

I wish he would, lol but I think we all know where he stands on gun issues, plus I don't think he likes to visit Texas too much.

Don't be suprised when you see (another) imposed tax for gas and a tax on vehicles that don't meet govt. recommendations on fuel economy, just like the proposed sugar tax on sodas, tobacco, etc...etc...

The thing that will affect the used car market is if they make the emissions tests standard in all states.

This would be a huge mistake. It's a massive waste of money to install, maintain, and staff testing equpitment and facilities for low population areas. We need less government waste in terms of tax dollars being spent to introduce needless programs. This would be at the top tier of needless programs.

Case in point: IL is proposing a state income tax increase of 1.5% to balance our budget. So as it sits, they can't afford to pay for the bills and programs already in place. Currently, this state does emissions testing in only 9 or 10 counties (heavy population areas around Chicago and St. Louis), which represents only a very small portion of actual land within the state. Additionally, we don't test cars 1995 and older, nor is there any sniff test or visual test for '96+. So what happens if the fed says, "test in every ZIP code of the state, and test using the same proceedure as CA". Where does an already strapped state like IL come up with the cash? MORE taxes. Or, if the fed funds the program, they'll just find a way to bump federal taxes or put the country further into debt.

In other words, what is to be gained from doing this? Does the cost justify the means? Make no mistake; I'm no liberal, no tree hugger, nor am I any kind of enviromentalist; but even those people have to admit that the national cost of making CA style emissions testing the *mandated standard* in every corner of the nation is, well, just plain insane. Cars account for what, 25-33% (think that's what I've read) of the greenhouse gasses that concern the liberals? So why concentrate such great national resources on only 1/4 or even 1/3 of the problem?

So Texas will rebel over higher emissions standards lol? After all this countries gone through this decade thats where they draw the line

yeah, smart ass... http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81R/billtext/html/HB01863I.htm

read the bill, if that passes it could very easily lead to states telling the Fed to F*** off. This emissions legislation will just be another reason in support of it. It will really explode if the Fed picks up the tab for California's mess of a budget. I know everyone in this thread busting obama's balls really irritates you, but I think most people don't want the gov't messing with their lives.... especially when it affects a hobby we all love = cars

For instance, if my state, Missouri, enacted California style laws my car would be illegal - or a I could spend a bunch of money to make less power and make it emissions legal (redoing the entire exhaust plus tuning plus other random crap).

i live in california. it sucks with emmissions. we cant even have high-flows and companys wont even ship them here.

but I think most people don't want the gov't messing with their lives.... especially when it affects a hobby we all love = cars

:nod:

I, for one, would be willing to relocate to TX and start my life over again if IL became a carbon copy of CA.

I see Texas growing in population in the near future.
-Joel

So...the armored Presidential Limousine will meet these Federally Mandated standards, along with the armored SUV's that provide support? Riiiiiiiight.

The belief that you can lessen oil consumption in the US by increasing MPG standards is ridiculous. our population continues to grow (thank you porous borders and welfare breeders) so how will we consume less oil when our population keeps rising?

Address the real problems: A broken Social Security System that will die by the time I am supposed to collect MY money that was taken from ME..

A broken Welfare system that refuses to die and lives off of OUR tax money.

A liberal government that is more concerned with the guns that I legally own than keeping those who commit firearms felonies locked up in a cold dark cell.

The inexcuseable Border situation and the countless illegal aliens that have taken away jobs from US Citizens, committed crimes against US citizens, and have no interest in becoming a US Citizen.

And finally, a war with no end in sight at the same time we are earmarking over 100 million for Pakistani refugees, giving billions to banks and automakers, and spending billions on outdated social programs.

I love America, I hate our leaders, the two party system, the electoral college, and the federal government with all of my heart and being. I am a Veteran and have travelled to other countries and can see our Country declining and becoming more like some of the countries I've visited. It saddens and sickens me. I would rather die in a revolution than watch my beloved Country turn into a Socialist State.

Fuck Cali, Anyone in texas want to help me move out of here?

So...the armored Presidential Limousine will meet these Federally Mandated standards, along with the armored SUV's that provide support? Riiiiiiiight.

The belief that you can lessen oil consumption in the US by increasing MPG standards is ridiculous. our population continues to grow (thank you porous borders and welfare breeders) so how will we consume less oil when our population keeps rising?

Address the real problems: A broken Social Security System that will die by the time I am supposed to collect MY money that was taken from ME..

A broken Welfare system that refuses to die and lives off of OUR tax money.

A liberal government that is more concerned with the guns that I legally own than keeping those who commit firearms felonies locked up in a cold dark cell.

The inexcuseable Border situation and the countless illegal aliens that have taken away jobs from US Citizens, committed crimes against US citizens, and have no interest in becoming a US Citizen.

And finally, a war with no end in sight at the same time we are earmarking over 100 million for Pakistani refugees, giving billions to banks and automakers, and spending billions on outdated social programs.

I love America, I hate our leaders, the two party system, the electoral college, and the federal government with all of my heart and being. I am a Veteran and have travelled to other countries and can see our Country declining and becoming more like some of the countries I've visited. It saddens and sickens me. I would rather die in a revolution than watch my beloved Country turn into a Socialist State.

Just wanted to say that I agree with your post. I wish none of what you wrote were true, but sadly it is.

Sometimes revolution is the only answer. In this case, it'd be great if we could just roll back about 50 years worth of legislation and go from there.

Fuck Cali, Anyone in texas want to help me move out of here?
After living there our entire lives, my gf and I packed up all our shit and left all of our family and friends behind in California to move to Idaho. Best move of our lives, and I sincerely mean that.

Make the move, you won't be sorry.

This will affect new cars only. The thing that will affect the used car market is if they make the emissions tests standard in all states.

All in all this is a good idea, it will make the U.S. less dependent on foreign oil, will give us the gas mileage we have been asking for(as a society) and will still allow car manufacturers to offer Corvettes and Camaro's...just with a bigger fee for gas guzzling.

The EU has been doing this for years, every car has to pass MOT to get registered and to be driven on roads. This is a good idea and shows both initiative and planning on the countries part.

The president has nothing to do with this bill, it isn't his fault and it isn't even his idea...it is the countries idea...Obama isn't going to show up on your doorstep and point a gun at you saying sell your F-Body...however he will try to keep as prices in check, and keep fuel mileage up.

Everyone always thinks that the next law or new leader is going to ruin the country, and take away your liberties...I see this as the country we take for granted trying to clean up its image, and its mark on the world.

Agree or disagree I do not care...just know that this has been a long time coming. It is a good idea on paper, a good idea for the nation, and it helps our countries image to the rest of the world...which is what we need now more than ever, the America of yesteryear is gone, and it will never return...we are no longer a country of raw producers, we are a service economy where education takes precedence over the ability to produce raw finished goods.

/rant
/sermon on Economic climate in the Industrialized West :secret2:

I'm pleased to see at least one other level-headed response in this thread. :)

Couple thoughts:
1. this affects new cars only
2. it isn't going to kill all new performance cars, this is an average standard that has to be mandated across the manufacturers models
3. It will not kill exotics, i.e. porsche lambo ferrari etc since they are low volume automakers and will likely be exempt like the current standard
4. So far I've seen nothing to indicate that there is any mandatory emissions testing change. That would be very unfortunate and of course is not out of the question, but so far I'm not seeing it.

We do have to do something about fuel economy. Our current rate of oil consumption is not sustainable and just serves to enrich terrorist sponsoring states in the middle east. Most of America wants to drive a fuel efficient vehicle because it will save them money.

This might be an inconvenience for us, but I don't see it killing off the automotive enthusiast in any way.

It may not seem like it will, but I have a feeling the supercars of today will soon disappear. While it may not affect the likes of Ferrari, lamborghini, etc. I can't and I'm assuming most of you as well couldn't even afford one of those. Rather than trying to drill and obtain our own oil, they are pretty much saying "let's depend less on foreign oil by all of us driving hybrids and rolling batteries." What if I don't want to go by a car that's out of this world gas mileage? What if I prefer a car like the G8 GT that gets decent mileage, but is still fun to drive when you put your foot down. I understand it's too soon to be blowing things up when nothings been finalized, but by trying to implement something like this your telling people what to drive. And again if I wanted to live in a state which chokes their cars to death because of emissions I would move to California.
-Joel

I see Texas growing in population in the near future.
-Joel

Texas HAS been growing pretty rapid for some years now and Im not really liking it. . . wish some of the liberal yanks would go the F* back where they came from :gtfo:

yeah, smart ass... http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81R/billtext/html/HB01863I.htm

read the bill, if that passes it could very easily lead to states telling the Fed to F*** off. This emissions legislation will just be another reason in support of it. It will really explode if the Fed picks up the tab for California's mess of a budget. I know everyone in this thread busting obama's balls really irritates you, but I think most people don't want the gov't messing with their lives.... especially when it affects a hobby we all love = cars

For instance, if my state, Missouri, enacted California style laws my car would be illegal - or a I could spend a bunch of money to make less power and make it emissions legal (redoing the entire exhaust plus tuning plus other random crap).


mmhmm...So if your democratically elected representatives vote in favor of this and it passes. Youre suggesting that the state govt will just not comply and rebel over it because your Camaro may not be as legal as it was. We can call it the battle of bowtie

I'm pleased to see at least one other level-headed response in this thread. :)

Couple thoughts:
1. this affects new cars only
2. it isn't going to kill all new performance cars, this is an average standard that has to be mandated across the manufacturers models
3. It will not kill exotics, i.e. porsche lambo ferrari etc since they are low volume automakers and will likely be exempt like the current standard
4. So far I've seen nothing to indicate that there is any mandatory emissions testing change. That would be very unfortunate and of course is not out of the question, but so far I'm not seeing it.

We do have to do something about fuel economy. Our current rate of oil consumption is not sustainable and just serves to enrich terrorist sponsoring states in the middle east. Most of America wants to drive a fuel efficient vehicle because it will save them money.

This might be an inconvenience for us, but I don't see it killing off the automotive enthusiast in any way.

Very well put! This isnt some kinda right vs. left anti Obama kinda thing. It is something we should begin to deal with and stop over exaggerating our country as being on a path to socialism or 3rd world status. So few of us even have an understanding of that sorta living condition

The purpose of self-governance – "to ... secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity ..." – has been discarded by the politically powerful. The new vision is political power; the new purpose is to control society by limiting individual liberty and denying it to our posterity. -Henry Lamb

I feel we have forgotten how the blessings of liberty originate and how to secure it for ourselves and our children by LIMITING the power of government. Instead we think the purpose of government is to decide what individuals may and may not do, and that compliance with government mandates is the source of security.

So yes I call BULLSHIT on this and many of the other things the government wants to do 'for us'. But you are right this is not an Obama issue, my distaste reaches far past one man. In order to keep this from getting locked allow me to rephrase my answer in to something that is LS1tech compatible:


NATURE BAD!!! CARS GOOD!!!

Instead of pushing for higher MPG, why the hell are they not pushing for new technology such as hydrogen?? We already have several cars sold in America that run on Hydrogen. The government should be supporting programs to promote that instead of forcing automakers to achieve better mileage.

I just don't like this, as I see it bringing on yet another tax. The government makes a nice chunk of money on the taxes at the pumps. Less fill-ups due to higher mileage vehicles equals less income for the government. You know they will make it up somewhere. State budgets will also suffer, and you know they will make it up somewhere else too.

While I do agree that we do need to lower our dependence on foreign oil, I don't like the government enforcing this. As Tim said above me, we have the means to do away with oil, yet instead of switching to Hydrogen vehicles, we try to just lower our oil consumption. /facepalm

Instead of pushing for higher MPG, why the hell are they not pushing for new technology such as hydrogen?? We already have several cars sold in America that run on Hydrogen. The government should be supporting programs to promote that instead of forcing automakers to achieve better mileage.
While that might be even better, the reality is that we do not have the infrastructure to support a hydrogen based auto industry right now and won't for a long time. Until I can fill up with hydrogen at the corner shell station, we have to work with what we currently have to start with.

Emission standard...........yawnnnnn and yes I live in california, lol its so funny seeing you guys all worried

Emission standard...........yawnnnnn and yes I live in california, lol its so funny seeing you guys all worried

What's funny seeing all the people in Cali wishing they could get a heads cam package as well as a full exhaust...
We don't need that shit around here...

What's funny seeing all the people in Cali wishing they could get a heads cam package as well as a full exhaust...
We don't need that shit around here...

+1

California fucks with two things guys have to have.

High performance autos and guns.

Kalifornia can keep its commie ways. I like many parts of that state but I don't need socialism so I gave up that dream.

Fuck cali.

Fuck cali.

Fu(K tree-hugging car haters!!!

So... say we get our cars to damn near half their current fuel demand and consume less fuel with these new standards. I don't see the government taking that hit on oil's tax revenue. Taxation on petrol products will be adjusted accordingly and you'll be out just as much cash. 50mpg might as well be 8 when the price of gas pegs $8.00 a gallon or something outrageous.

I wonder that as well when we start buying less oil from the Arabs, what's going to happen to the price of gas? I'm sure it's going to go up, and then what? Oh right the good ol' boys in Washington will say "don't worry my fellow Americans the price of gas may be higher, but with extra mileage our cars get you will spend less time at the pump." So sure your going less to the pump, but are going to get raped everytime you have to. But don't worry our "savior" will fix everything by sprinkling "change" dust out of his @ss.
-Joel

I agree i live in cali due to the military, origianlly from colorado (emissions are almost just as gay) Thats why my car is still registerd in washington where i havent lived in 3 years but they have no emissions. In cali i jsut had to get a tailpipe test for base decals and some retard at the local Chevron i paid to do the test failed me cause of a highly modified vehicle, i have an LS6 intake w/ mod to keep emission and a P&P TB and he was so mad at me cause i Tampered with it. Its all stock just made to flow better helping peformance, hence helping mileage. Thats all us guys are doing trying to make our cars perfrom better so they can get better mileage. We do our part to help the enviroment

I'm pleased to see at least one other level-headed response in this thread. :)...

Agree or disagree I do not care...just know that this has been a long time coming. It is a good idea on paper, a good idea for the nation, and it helps our countries image to the rest of the world...which is what we need now more than ever, the America of yesteryear is gone, and it will never return...we are no longer a country of raw producers, we are a service economy where education takes precedence over the ability to produce raw finished goods.

:stupid:
Thank god for you two!! :hail:

:eyes: to everyone else in this thread. Talk about N.I.M.B.Y. :bang:

And correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the fastest production vehicle rated at ~1200hp meet current emissions standards. None of this means we can't go fast, it means we have to actually pay more attention to how we do it.

I think i've seen some pretty fast/high HP/modded cars come out of Cali so everyone crying that there is no performance coming out of Cali is just plain looney. Sure they might have restriction on what they can put in but there are still fast cars out there.
And like the two others have said these standards are across the entire line of cars a company makes, so Gm will have to throw in 3 or 3 cars that get 50 miles a gallon to off set the v8. Bit whoop?

Unfortunately we will probably never drill Alaska, or throw some more rigs off the coast of the Carolinas and Texas, to many left nuts have pretty much nailed that shut for us, so we will have to import oil from everyone else, untill we figure something out. But wouldn't it be nice if say in 15 years your driving your kids in a rolling battery to soccer camp, and when it's nice and sunny out you're burring the petro? I'd rather have it that way then have it no way, then have my SS run on hope, dreams, gum drops and looly pops.

What's funny is there are people that are expressing their distaste about the war in Iraq, the state of foreign affairs, the economy and that the country is going downhill yet in the same post turn around and bitch that omg their gonna impose tougher emissions standards on the country and it's gonna effect me. :nono:

Freedom is a RESPONSIBILITY and NOT a privilege people.

So...the armored Presidential Limousine will meet these Federally Mandated standards, along with the armored SUV's that provide support? Riiiiiiiight.

The belief that you can lessen oil consumption in the US by increasing MPG standards is ridiculous. our population continues to grow (thank you porous borders and welfare breeders) so how will we consume less oil when our population keeps rising?

Address the real problems: A broken Social Security System that will die by the time I am supposed to collect MY money that was taken from ME..

A broken Welfare system that refuses to die and lives off of OUR tax money.

A liberal government that is more concerned with the guns that I legally own than keeping those who commit firearms felonies locked up in a cold dark cell.

The inexcuseable Border situation and the countless illegal aliens that have taken away jobs from US Citizens, committed crimes against US citizens, and have no interest in becoming a US Citizen.

And finally, a war with no end in sight at the same time we are earmarking over 100 million for Pakistani refugees, giving billions to banks and automakers, and spending billions on outdated social programs.

I love America, I hate our leaders, the two party system, the electoral college, and the federal government with all of my heart and being. I am a Veteran and have travelled to other countries and can see our Country declining and becoming more like some of the countries I've visited. It saddens and sickens me. I would rather die in a revolution than watch my beloved Country turn into a Socialist State.

Amen!

:stupid:
Thank god for you two!! :hail:

:eyes: to everyone else in this thread. Talk about N.I.M.B.Y. :bang:

And correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the fastest production vehicle rated at ~1200hp meet current emissions standards. None of this means we can't go fast, it means we have to actually pay more attention to how we do it.

There's a lot of ways to get around it, with my old dsm I'd just install a stock exhuast, detune the car, pass emissions, then put back the aftermarket exhuast with no cat, call it a day. Or you can buy a high flow cat, if your car is legal now I doubt it won't be legal with the new rule's, just change the tune to pass emissions, then change it back. But all in all imo it's good to have the government finally set a much better standard for better gas mileage vehicle's because it'll leave more money in our pockets to mod our cars that we would otherwise send to the middle east (but they won't realize that, until gas is back at 4-5 bux a gallon then they'll be blaming the government for something else). They can and will still make fast cars, it'll just be offset by grocery getter's and regular vehicle's that are 40+mpg, instead of 20-30. And better mpg trucks would be a huge benefit to many businesses.

But honestly if there's one thing I've learned on this site aspecially when it come's to politics, arguing on here is like arguing with fox news, when you find yourself doing it or getting sucked in (and here I did, argh) just STOP,and realize who your arguing with...most of these people still think Obama is a terrorist.

There was a funny bit on the daily show the other day where John Stewart is trying to make a point about what fox news said and then he stops and hits his head with his hand and goes "DAMNIT WHY AM I ARGUING WITH FOX NEWS AGAIN, DAMNIT JOHN STOP DOING THAT!" Point is it's a gigantic waste of time and energy.

most of these people still think Obama is a terrorist.

Did you watch this video?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLwThey have a segment over why they are doing this with emissions...

I'm not to sure about how much of it is true, but they make some good points!

:eyes:There's a lot of ways to get around it, with my old dsm I'd just install a stock exhuast, detune the car, pass emissions, then put back the aftermarket exhuast with no cat, call it a day. Or you can buy a high flow cat, if your car is legal now I doubt it won't be legal with the new rule's, just change the tune to pass emissions, then change it back. But all in all imo it's good to have the government finally set a much better standard for better gas mileage vehicle's because it'll leave more money in our pockets to mod our cars that we would otherwise send to the middle east (but they won't realize that, until gas is back at 4-5 bux a gallon then they'll be blaming the government for something else). They can and will still make fast cars, it'll just be offset by grocery getter's and regular vehicle's that are 40+mpg, instead of 20-30. And better mpg trucks would be a huge benefit to many businesses.

But honestly if there's one thing I've learned on this site aspecially when it come's to politics, arguing on here is like arguing with fox news, when you find yourself doing it or getting sucked in (and here I did, argh) just STOP,and realize who your arguing with...most of these people still think Obama is a terrorist.

There was a funny bit on the daily show the other day where John Stewart is trying to make a point about what fox news said and then he stops and hits his head with his hand and goes "DAMNIT WHY AM I ARGUING WITH FOX NEWS AGAIN, DAMNIT JOHN STOP DOING THAT!" Point is it's a gigantic waste of time and energy.
It's hilarious reading a typical liberal stereotying of Fox news and those who watch it. But what else would you expect from someone who takes advice from John Stewart?

Very well put! This isnt some kinda right vs. left anti Obama kinda thing. It is something we should begin to deal with and stop over exaggerating our country as being on a path to socialism or 3rd world status. So few of us even have an understanding of that sorta living condition

The longest journeys still begin with one small step. I prefer not to take ANY steps in any direction of socialists tendancies. Giving public funs to the private sector surely constitutes that.

We need to worry less about fixing the US's bad image in the world, and fixing our own damn problems. I don't see how requiring the entire nation to fall under the same quidelines for pullotion with a state that has a hugely dense population.

I agree i live in cali due to the military, origianlly from colorado (emissions are almost just as gay) Thats why my car is still registerd in washington where i havent lived in 3 years but they have no emissions. In cali i jsut had to get a tailpipe test for base decals and some retard at the local Chevron i paid to do the test failed me cause of a highly modified vehicle, i have an LS6 intake w/ mod to keep emission and a P&P TB and he was so mad at me cause i Tampered with it. Its all stock just made to flow better helping peformance, hence helping mileage. Thats all us guys are doing trying to make our cars perfrom better so they can get better mileage. We do our part to help the enviroment

Exactly! Everyone on here just looooves the environment so much :D.

:eyes:
It's hilarious reading a typical liberal stereotying of Fox news and those who watch it. But what else would you expect from someone who takes advice from John Stewart?
If you get your news ONLY from Fox, you are no better than someone getting it only from Stewart. :engarde:

Fox has plenty of bias and it's pretty obvious. Best you can do is look at the news from a variety of different perspectives. Fox is prone to a lot of the same sensationalism from the right wing that you see from the left wing on MSNBC.

:eyes:
It's hilarious reading a typical liberal stereotying of Fox news and those who watch it. But what else would you expect from someone who takes advice from John Stewart?

I don't but I love his sarcasm. Fox news is so biast I'm surprised it's not illegal. msnbc is very biast towards the left i think trying to level out fox new's biast. CNN is ok but seems a little more biast to the left but they try to stay neutral and have lou dobbs who is extremely biast to the right for a so called independent.

I think I have a pretty level headed idea of who's biast towards what party in politics, and i don't even mind lou dobbs to tell the truth, but some of the things fox news aspecially hannity says make's my stomach turn. When you have a news organization trying to make out a good genuine person who happens to disagree with them on some political issues, trying to insinuate he's a terrorist to risk his safety and the safety of his 2 daughter's disgusts me. To what end would they do that to try to insinuate someone is a terrorist and pals around with those that tried to bomb our country, that's rediculous and it endanger's the live's of him and his family and for what, because he's a liberal democrat? It blows my mind that a so called "fair and balanced" news organization can get away with these sort of things, and so many hatefilled retards believe them, but i'm sure it's not their intention...they could care less as long as it scares people from voting for em, not based on truth or facts or opinion, but straight lies and twisting of everything they can possibly come up with...the guy's not a terrorist, and he doesn't pal around with them in his living room...this is why they call them rethuglicans, when they stoop to that kind of low.

You guys(spoolin, infinite) can say what you want, but when I mid my car I want to be able to install whatever I want. I don't want my selection of parts to be cut in half, because some cunt from California and Washington feels I should change to their standard. The standard they are promoting is for new factory cars, I understand. But when the years start rolling by, how long will it be till they pass a bill to get cars/trucks that are x amount of years old off the road? You guys may say "oh that will never happen." But you know this government will make an excuse saying the older cars are canceling out the good the newer cars are making in the environent. I still say this is just the beginning in this government controlling what we drive, or more like what we choose to drive.
-Joel

** Infinite, not sure how up to date you sig is but got a question. Noticed you deleted the AIR, EGR, and Cats on you 95 Z28. Why did you take that stuff off your car?

What's funny is there are people that are expressing their distaste about the war in Iraq, the state of foreign affairs, the economy and that the country is going downhill yet in the same post turn around and bitch that omg their gonna impose tougher emissions standards on the country and it's gonna effect me. :nono:

Freedom is a RESPONSIBILITY and NOT a privilege people.

What's funny is that you totally missed the point, that we have all these national issues (war in Iraq, the state of foreign affairs, the economy and that the country is going downhill, as you stated), yet the government is worried about creating tougher emissions standards. Glad to see our well paid leaders are worried about fixing a pin hole before the crater.... :nono: :eyes:

** Infinite, not sure how up to date you sig is but got a question. Noticed you deleted the AIR, EGR, and Cats on you 95 Z28. Why did you take that stuff off your car?
I bought it with no cats. I took off the AIR/EGR to clean up the engine bay. I think you may have misunderstood my position though, I said in my previous post that I was definitely NOT for making CA emissions requirements national. In fact I said one of the reasons I'm not that concerned yet about CAFE is that I have not seen that in there.

If the gov wants to make it required for new cars, I don't have an issue with that. Most people don't even know what any of that is nor do they care. That will reduce overall emissions. But I definitely think that the gov should leave people who want to mod their cars the hell alone. Once you buy a car, it is YOUR car, and you should be able to do whatever you want to it.

:eyes:
It's hilarious reading a typical liberal stereotying of Fox news and those who watch it. But what else would you expect from someone who takes advice from John Stewart?

Stewarts said repeatedly that hes not a news source. He commentates on the news rather then delivering it. Stewarts issue is with the laziness and sensationalism that exists in cable news. Which all 3 major networks are guilty of but Fox repeatedly contradicts itself as he shows quite often. Like how O Reilly is an advocate of "right to privacy" but then sends his goons to stalk people with a camera that wont come on his show. And Fox also repeatedly gives only half the story and welcomes the ignorance of its viewership to help gain ratings

It'll never work here in MT, MT will pass laws making it Void. Just look what we did with the Gun Ban Laws. Mt stood up and told the government FAWK YOU! And we passed our own set of laws making it legal to own Firearms the Fed's Are Trying to Ban

The longest journeys still begin with one small step. I prefer not to take ANY steps in any direction of socialists tendancies. Giving public funs to the private sector surely constitutes that.

We need to worry less about fixing the US's bad image in the world, and fixing our own damn problems. I don't see how requiring the entire nation to fall under the same quidelines for pullotion with a state that has a hugely dense population.

Socialism is form of government. You cant just use it as an adjective to justify a belief. Thats a series charge youre making. By that logic we would have to say that we already are socialist because we have a govt run military, fire, police, mail, soc sec, unemployment,ect. and the fact that the previous administration didnt do away with it must make them socialist as well. I think they are acting in such a manner because we are under extraordinary circumstances and unless they plan to make it final then its not socialism.

These standards are a needed to ensure a turn around in our climate. After all while we see the needs to take care of our problems at home, this is the entire planet we are talking about

Socialism is form of government. You cant just use it as an adjective to justify a belief. Thats a series charge youre making. By that logic we would have to say that we already are socialist because we have a govt run military, fire, police, mail, soc sec, unemployment,ect. and the fact that the previous administration didnt do away with it must make them socialist as well. I think they are acting in such a manner because we are under extraordinary circumstances and unless they plan to make it final then its not socialism.

These standards are a needed to ensure a turn around in our climate. After all while we see the needs to take care of our problems at home, this is the entire planet we are talking about

The problem isn't really cars, sure they produce alot of emissions, but this country gets so much of its energy as do others from coal... coal power plants is where the majority of our emissions are coming from...

These standards are a needed to ensure a turn around in our climate.

No, these standards will not ensure any such turn around. Vehicle emissions as the end-all be-all of environmental concern is simply liberals blowing smoke up our asses.

Industrial polloution should be addressed before anyone worries about the smaller problem (cars). Actually, cars may not pesent much of a concern at all if large, commerical polloution was drastically reduced.

What's funny is that you totally missed the point, that we have all these national issues (war in Iraq, the state of foreign affairs, the economy and that the country is going downhill, as you stated), yet the government is worried about creating tougher emissions standards. Glad to see our well paid leaders are worried about fixing a pin hole before the crater.... :nono: :eyes:

I didn't know that this is the ONLY thing that the government was doing to reduce our dependency on foreign oil? :confused: The addiction to foreign oil effects everyone of us on different levels, and everylittle bit is gonna help.

Cleaner running cars also benefits us as consumers financially, as well as benefits our health.
Breathing this crap in everyday takes a toll...
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff92/jacob928az/Los-Angeles-smog.jpg

I don't care if it saves all the bunnies and reduces global warming or whatever but there's no sense in us driving cars that are inefficient if we have the technology to do otherwise.

No, these standards will not ensure any such turn around... Actually, cars may not pesent much of a concern at all if large, commerical polloution was drastically reduced.

Back it up with facts please.

It'll never work here in MT, MT will pass laws making it Void. Just look what we did with the Gun Ban Laws. Mt stood up and told the government FAWK YOU! And we passed our own set of laws making it legal to own Firearms the Fed's Are Trying to Ban

Amen to that, brother. Right now Texas is fighting hard to keep its 2nd amendment rights as well as not put up with the rest of the BS the govt is trying to impose. Gov Rick Perry even said if this sorta thing continues, Texas doesn't have to put up with it, we have the option of succeeding from the union. . . :usa: But really all of this is just a sign of the times

Yeah it was my fault, misunderstood your original post.

By the way the government wants us to rely less on foreign oil, and instate a standard emissions testing. Yet it seems they have totally forgotten Earth Day when our amazing president was using a ton of fuel on Air Force One. To give a speech that he could have made from Washington. They want us to use less oil, yet they find whatever reason to fly across the country to give a useless speech.
-Joel

**And just because Cali is covered in a cloud of smog, doesn't mean they have the right to go and start changing the emissions crap in Florida. Almost the entire state of Florida is surrounded by water, most of that crap is blown out to sea. There is no need for us to deal with that emissions shit. And don't give some kind of Al Gore speech, because I'm sure even Al Gore knows he's full inconvenient shit.

No, these standards will not ensure any such turn around. Vehicle emissions as the end-all be-all of environmental concern is simply liberals blowing smoke up our asses.

Industrial polloution should be addressed before anyone worries about the smaller problem (cars). Actually, cars may not pesent much of a concern at all if large, commerical polloution was drastically reduced.

#1 your car looks sick, great job with it and i wanna see more pics, lol. #2 little things add up very quickly, and when you have a bunch of little cars they add up as well, this is just the beginning of an overall plan to curb global warming, but i think there is a bigger reason for this that's not just global warming. The money we are sending over sea's is rediculous and most going to the middle east which never liked us very much, this will help keep that money here. Also right now gas price's have america by the balls, when they squeeze people feel it all around, food goes up, everything goes up, it got to the point real quick where trucker's went to mexico to fill up. At the rate our demand is going if we stay at our normal 15-30mpg vehicle's gas price's will only get higher and higher faster than we can handle which was shown last summer.

My point is it's not just global warming, or tree hugging liberals blowing smoke up our ass, your not the slightest annoyed of all the money going out of the U.S from higher and higher gas price's with ever growing demand?

edit: ah crap I can't even take my own advice, damnit, always have a lot to say on this subject.

No, these standards will not ensure any such turn around. Vehicle emissions as the end-all be-all of environmental concern is simply liberals blowing smoke up our asses.

Industrial polloution should be addressed before anyone worries about the smaller problem (cars). Actually, cars may not pesent much of a concern at all if large, commerical polloution was drastically reduced.

I dont understand why this has to be a "liberals blowing smoke"? Are you not educated enough to argue the scientists that are doing this or what. Call it political, but I think the only reason this has been turned into a right vs. left argument is because the corp. are financing the RNC to ensure that they can keep polluting the air and keep this industry in tact at least until they can adapt to it. We can play this right/left game all day but the truth is these are multi-billion dollar industries that stand to lose billions if we stop buying their products and they will want to defend that at all costs.And if they have to hire scientists or try to mislead the public to aid politicians who will help them they will. They have the money

Socialism is form of government. You cant just use it as an adjective to justify a belief. Thats a series charge youre making. By that logic we would have to say that we already are socialist because we have a govt run military, fire, police, mail, soc sec, unemployment,ect. and the fact that the previous administration didnt do away with it must make them socialist as well. I think they are acting in such a manner because we are under extraordinary circumstances and unless they plan to make it final then its not socialism.

These standards are a needed to ensure a turn around in our climate. After all while we see the needs to take care of our problems at home, this is the entire planet we are talking about

Sure, those are scialist ideas as well, but none of what you mention are businesses mean to make a profit. Giving money to the automakers was a huge mistrake. They are both going to go bankrupt anyways. What a monumental waste of money. To top it off, the governemt is basically telling most of the secured creditors for Chrysler to f-off and giving ownership to the Unions. Have you forgotten how well that worked for the airlines? They went into bankruptcy two years later.

The problem with the US is that we think we can solve the worlds problems, when we can't even solve our own. We can't even secure our border, but we want to stop global warming. Yeah fuckin right. I'm not buying into the liberl's "green" agenda either. It's just trying to get more poliktical capitol to keep the socialists retards in power.

Sure, those are scialist ideas as well, but none of what you mention are businesses mean to make a profit. Giving money to the automakers was a huge mistrake. They are both going to go bankrupt anyways. What a monumental waste of money. To top it off, the governemt is basically telling most of the secured creditors for Chrysler to f-off and giving ownership to the Unions. Have you forgotten how well that worked for the airlines? They went into bankruptcy two years later.

The problem with the US is that we think we can solve the worlds problems, when we can't even solve our own. We can't even secure our border, but we want to stop global warming. Yeah fuckin right. I'm not buying into the liberl's "green" agenda either. It's just trying to get more poliktical capitol to keep the socialists retards in power.


For starters, I am UAW and my father and grandfathers are as well. These companies have been in business for years and handled these situations fine for years. Our current handling of how we do business in this country has made workers too costly, not the unions. And we're not going to give up health care and pensions and fair wages because people continue to vote for politicians that want to keep the status quo and let the corporations do business like a bunch of wild animals. And the airline businesses went bankrupt because they were bad business

2ndly, Theres plenty of profit to be made in these new green standards and I hope to see Exxon and BP get on board and help this out and still turn a profit. We can still have fast powerful cars and be less harmful at the same time

**And just because Cali is covered in a cloud of smog, doesn't mean they have the right to go and start changing the emissions crap in Florida. Almost the entire state of Florida is surrounded by water, most of that crap is blown out to sea. There is no need for us to deal with that emissions shit. And don't give some kind of Al Gore speech, because I'm sure even Al Gore knows he's full inconvenient shit.

Like I said N.I.M.B.Y.

I like how your solution is letting all of it blow out to sea...:eyes:

For starters, I am UAW and my father and grandfathers are as well. These companies have been in business for years and handled these situations fine for years. Our current handling of how we do business in this country has made workers too costly, not the unions. And we're not going to give up health care and pensions and fair wages because people continue to vote for politicians that want to keep the status quo and let the corporations do business like a bunch of wild animals. And the airline businesses went bankrupt because they were bad business

2ndly, Theres plenty of profit to be made in these new green standards and I hope to see Exxon and BP get on board and help this out and still turn a profit. We can still have fast powerful cars and be less harmful at the same time

I agree that there's plenty of profit to be had by the oil companies they are just reluctant to leave their golden egg.
Also nobody is asking you to give up pension or health care but the "fair" wages are debatable. Too often people point the fingers at each other (i.e. the UAW at GM and GM at UAW and blah blah blah) It's all related and all part of how the situation got to where it now is.

All I have to say is take your soap box and go learn mandarin because China passed the US in CO2 output in 2006. And with Asia's almost exponential growth rate they will be DWARFING every other country in greenhouse gas production within 10 years.

I agree that there's plenty of profit to be had by the oil companies they are just reluctant to leave their golden egg.
Also nobody is asking you to give up pension or health care but the "fair" wages are debatable. Too often people point the fingers at each other (i.e. the UAW at GM and GM at UAW and blah blah blah) It's all related and all part of how the situation got to where it now is.

Debatable if you believe we make the $$amount analysts say we do and if you base it on the former tier scale that GM no longer pays. Most people dont correctly present the facts nor how the cost is figured

All I have to say is take your soap box and go learn mandarin because China passed the US in CO2 output in 2006. And with all of asias almost exponential growth rate they will be DWARFING every other country in greenhouse gas production within 10 years.

That is a sad fact. And China refuses to participate in environmental programs and efforts to help. I think some day they'll come around though. Theyll do whats cheapest

Like I said N.I.M.B.Y.

I like how your solution is letting all of it blow out to sea...:eyes:

My point is that they want the entire country to conform to california standard, why? What is it about California and their standard that's so amazing. Even with all the emissions crap that place still has a haze over it. Problem I have with it is how long until it moves from new cars to older cars? Sure older cars won't pass the new standard so how long until they give a limit to how long cars could be on the road? Before we know it we might need to rebuild the engine in our car after xxxxx amount of miles, or be forced to buy a new one. And just because we are going to pass tougher emissions test, doesn't mean the rest of the world will. So here's the government trying to play captain planet, when for all we know nobody else gives a damn.

I've already made my point on the entire oil scenario. Even if all cars pulled off 100mpg we will still be acquiring our oil from the middle east. And with us buying less oil where will the price of fuel jump to?
-Joel

What's funny seeing all the people in Cali wishing they could get a heads cam package as well as a full exhaust...
We don't need that shit around here...

UMMMMMMMMM yeah all you have to do is hit up a sponsor and have $$$$ and order your heads and cam package

I dont understand why this has to be a "liberals blowing smoke"? Are you not educated enough to argue the scientists that are doing this or what. Call it political, but I think the only reason this has been turned into a right vs. left argument is because the corp. are financing the RNC to ensure that they can keep polluting the air and keep this industry in tact at least until they can adapt to it. We can play this right/left game all day but the truth is these are multi-billion dollar industries that stand to lose billions if we stop buying their products and they will want to defend that at all costs.And if they have to hire scientists or try to mislead the public to aid politicians who will help them they will. They have the money

weird, because I would make the same argument about corporations - GE stands to make millions, if not billions, off government contracts with this green initiative and is lobbying constantly (even held meetings with the POTUS behind closed doors :eyes:) and uses NBC to promote it. The fact is that anyone who opposes 'Global warming' finds their funding completely dries up and they are out of a job and silenced. There's definitely two sides to this argument and saying that we are just dancing around playing the right vs. left game ridiculous. Each side has very good points

... And with Asia's almost exponential growth rate they will be DWARFING every other country in greenhouse gas production within 10 years.

And your saying they aren't doing anything to tackle their problem? Every country is tackling it in one way or another, we're just late to the party.

...And just because we are going to pass tougher emissions test, doesn't mean the rest of the world will. So here's the government trying to play captain planet, when for all we know nobody else gives a damn.

That is a sad fact. And China refuses to participate in environmental programs and efforts to help. I think some day they'll come around though. Theyll do whats cheapest

Not true...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
Notice anybody that isn't on the list??

this is just another way to make money off a natural occuring force of nature that has been happening for as long as the solar system has been around. only one to blame for global warming is the sun.

My point is that they want the entire country to conform to california standard, why? What is it about California and their standard that's so amazing. Even with all the emissions crap that place still has a haze over it. Problem I have with it is how long until it moves from new cars to older cars? Sure older cars won't pass the new standard so how long until they give a limit to how long cars could be on the road? Before we know it we might need to rebuild the engine in our car after xxxxx amount of miles, or be forced to buy a new one...

I've already made my point on the entire oil scenario. Even if all cars pulled off 100mpg we will still be acquiring our oil from the middle east. And with us buying less oil where will the price of fuel jump to?
-Joel

What do you have against California's emissions standards other than the fact that they are tough? If your gonna make a change or pass a law why not make it a useful and effective one? And you joke about the haze but it was 10 times worse 10 years ago, so yes it is doing ALOT for the air quality and it's been proven. And 98% of the people it in this state aren't effected by the change in emission standard because they aren't modding their cars, and it won't effect 98% of the people in this country either.

Countless people, myself included get upset when either the state or national government come up with some BS law that doesn't really change or do anything but is just there to appease one or two groups of people that have been harping on a subject for too long. And the law or bill that they passed did absolutely NOTHING to solve or tackle the issue.
Personally I'm happy and proud that this administration drop kicked this fucking issue so they can move on to other issues and hopefully we can be done with taking baby steps towards emissions problems in this country.

Oh and if all cars got 100mpg we might still get some oil from the middle east but not much. We import 58% of the oil we consume. Assuming the national average for mpg is 20 mpg and it went to 100 that would be a 80% drop in consumption in the automotive market. I'm no statistician but I would think that our national oil production could sustain us and our oil imports would be at a minimum. And if that were to happen our trade deficit would disappear, as would our military and political presence in the middle east and from there it's just a snowball effect on how our country would benefit.

this is just another way to make money off a natural occuring force of nature that has been happening for as long as the solar system has been around. only one to blame for global warming is the sun.

Maybe your right, maybe your wrong. Global warming is not something I care or believe in. But pollution is not the sun's problem, it's ours. And if we can do something about it than I don't see what the problem is.

Being green and caring about the enviornment is a new hot trend that the media,politicians and all the industrys are trying to use to sell you products and ideas. Pretending to care is the oldest trick in the book, global warming is based off computer models and theorys and will never be around in our lifetime

UMMMMMMMMM yeah all you have to do is hit up a sponsor and have $$$$ and order your heads and cam package

Sure you could get a baby cam with no overlap but how much hp are you leaving on the table by not having headers and cats as well! It's a hassle to go back to stock and I hear they have random sniffer stations all over the place as well! Either way I'm glad we don't have visuals here...

weird, because I would make the same argument about corporations - GE stands to make millions, if not billions, off government contracts with this green initiative and is lobbying constantly (even held meetings with the POTUS behind closed doors :eyes:) and uses NBC to promote it. The fact is that anyone who opposes 'Global warming' finds their funding completely dries up and they are out of a job and silenced. There's definitely two sides to this argument and saying that we are just dancing around playing the right vs. left game ridiculous. Each side has very good points

GE doesnt have to badmouth the other industries. They are already making green products and having success with cleaner products. They have to market their product line but they have yet to really have some movement on their networks to bad mouth skeptics

this is just another way to make money off a natural occuring force of nature that has been happening for as long as the solar system has been around.
what's different about the earth today than the way it has been since the solar system was formed?

(hint: started around 150 years ago)

what's different about the earth today than the way it has been since the solar system was formed?

(hint: started around 150 years ago)


what is the difference if it was 150 or 15000 yrs ago. the earth cycles due to many reasons including sunspot activity on the sun and solar radiation. earth heats and cools.

Not true...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
Notice anybody that isn't on the list??

Wow its too bad I don't have a week to reed all that garbage. Wikipedia doesn't have a rep of being very FACT reliable. . .

Wow its too bad I don't have a week to reed all that garbage. Wikipedia doesn't have a rep of being very FACT reliable. . .

Maybe you should watch the news then! :confused:

what is the difference if it was 150 or 15000 yrs ago.
the industrial revolution.

The earth of 15,000 years ago (and however back) is not the same as the earth of the last 150. That doesn't establish a causal relationship, but that does show that you can't entirely dismiss the evidence for manmade changes as totally implausible based on time cycles.

Maybe you should watch the news then! :confused:

I do but really can't rely on that too much either for facts since the govt also tries to controll the media which provides a bias point of view on national and international politics. . . bet you think the govt's (obama admin) relationship with ACORN is a good thing for America. . . which in all reality the govt is using ACORN(suckers) and the media to help impliment its now socialistic policies while ACORN thinks the gov is just there to help support their views

Maybe you should watch the news then! :confused:

Oh yeah because all they report is the truth right. Just like the newspapers :lol:
I swear the more drive by media news you hear the dumber you will get.

I see Texas growing in population in the near future.
-Joel


YALL COME ON DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE GETTER DONE down here with our hotrods.:devil:

Sure you could get a baby cam with no overlap but how much hp are you leaving on the table by not having headers and cats as well! It's a hassle to go back to stock and I hear they have random sniffer stations all over the place as well! Either way I'm glad we don't have visuals here...

lol we have strokers here with giant cams and power adders daily driven.....people get around stuff like that

Don't worry about this. I guarantee that we will get a Reagan like candidate in the future to replace this guy. The economy has gone nowhere. GM and Chrysler are now gov't controlled companies. Not many companies will be able to make money ever again unless we get a new pres. Don't worry...ride this out for the rest of his term and we'll be living much better again.

I do but really can't rely on that too much either for facts since the govt also tries to controll the media which provides a bias point of view on national and international politics. . . bet you think the govt's (obama admin) relationship with ACORN is a good thing for America. . . which in all reality the govt is using ACORN(suckers) and the media to help impliment its now socialistic policies while ACORN thinks the gov is just there to help support their views

Oh yeah because all they report is the truth right. Just like the newspapers :lol:
I swear the more drive by media news you hear the dumber you will get.


I get my news from two places...
The Japan Times and The Oman Tribune but ya'll wouldn't know anything about that would ya? Hmmmm didn't think so.

Since the govt is so concerned about vehicle emissions why dont they have a mandatory nobody can drive their vehicle/trucks or anything except emergency vehicles (police,ambulances,firetrucks) week out of the year. The govt will pay all of our wages for the week. I would be willing to take a lil pay cut for that 1 week so I dont have to worry about this stupid emissions BS

I get my news from two places...
The Japan Times and The Oman Tribune but ya'll wouldn't know anything about that would ya? Hmmmm didn't think so.

. . . right, so because its a foreign source, that makes it reliable. . . sure buddy, along with Wikipedia. . .

the industrial revolution.

The earth of 15,000 years ago (and however back) is not the same as the earth of the last 150. That doesn't establish a causal relationship, but that does show that you can't entirely dismiss the evidence for manmade changes as totally implausible based on time cycles.
Was the ice age caused by manmade changes?

Do we not have ice cores and other evidence that dates back far before the industrial revolution that shows climate change?

How about the evidence showing that the CO2 levels are actually following the rise and fall of temperatures, NOT the other way around. How's that for an inconvenient truth?

You're saying that because we can't dismiss we could be contributing to a climate change that is already a natural occurrence, we should buy all these green products. That's an extremely weak foundation to build off of.

The rest of us sane individuals are ignoring the junk science and waiting for real proof that our exhaust pipes and other modern day conveniences have any significant effect on our climate before putting another dime into this green movement. The only green thing about it is the color of the money that's coming out of the pockets of gullible people who have been fooled into thinking they're saving the planet.

Was the ice age caused by manmade changes?

Do we not have ice cores and other evidence that dates back far before the industrial revolution that shows climate change?

How about the evidence showing that the CO2 levels are actually following the rise and fall of temperatures, NOT the other way around. How's that for an inconvenient truth?

You're saying that because we can't dismiss we could be contributing to a climate change that is already a natural occurrence, we should buy all these green products. That's an extremely weak foundation to build off of.

The rest of us sane individuals are ignoring the junk science and waiting for real proof that our exhaust pipes and other modern day conveniences have any significant effect on our climate before putting another dime into this green movement. The only green thing about it is the color of the money that's coming out of the pockets of gullible people who have been fooled into thinking they're saving the planet.

:chug: thank you.......thread

the industrial revolution.

The earth of 15,000 years ago (and however back) is not the same as the earth of the last 150. That doesn't establish a causal relationship, but that does show that you can't entirely dismiss the evidence for manmade changes as totally implausible based on time cycles.

i am not going to dismiss we do pollute because we do. you have to conclude with core sampling of dirt and certain times can produce evidence of a massive climate shift. it does happen and the evidence is there.no matter how much "green" we do nature will do what it wants. i just watched a special i downloaded about why the old kingdom of egypt possibly fell. they found that from core samples taken in an old "lake bed" that the climate shifted around 4000yrs ago and caused a major drought and the nile receded. this area that is now mostly desert used to be vast lush farmland. no matter what we do the earth is going to cycle throughout time and heat up and cool down.

You're saying that because we can't dismiss we could be contributing to a climate change that is already a natural occurrence, we should buy all these green products. That's an extremely weak foundation to build off of.
I didn't say that. I didn't even say we can show anything is manmade at this point (meaning we have to buy all this green stuff). In fact, I very clearly said that just because the industrial revolution happened does not establish a causal relationship to climate change.

The fact remains, there is plenty of good science (not junk science) showing there may be a correlation, and the possibility can not be dismissed solely because climate change happened in the distant past that was clearly not manmade.

There has been sort of a misrepresentation on the part of a lot of people that any scientific evidence for manmade climate change has come from Al Gore or the left wing of the political establishment, which is just false. There has been a lot of research going on for a while that is not political at all in nature.

when all these politicians actually do the "green" thing i will too. think about all the gas obama uses for his jet to go on "vacation". all the gas used to cart around all of his secret service. i bet none of these so called green assholes actually do what they say themselves.

when all these politicians actually do the "green" thing i will too. think about all the gas obama uses for his jet to go on "vacation". all the gas used to cart around all of his secret service. i bet none of these so called green assholes actually do what they say themselves.


Pathetic and ignorant

when all these politicians actually do the "green" thing i will too. think about all the gas obama uses for his jet to go on "vacation". all the gas used to cart around all of his secret service. i bet none of these so called green assholes actually do what they say themselves.

I hear that argument all the time from people. Were you under the impression that Al Gore, Robert F. Kennedy, and Obama are somehow scamming you or...what..I guess I dont follow? They are asking for a cleaner cheaper technology to exist. Theyre not being smart asses by using traditional means of transportation.

Maybe if their is gobal warming (IF) then it could end up saving us! Maybe the build up in the atmosphere of greenhouse gases will save us! We don't know whats coming and the effects. Maybe the sun will go through a long cycle of solar flares, that would have crippled the climate but are built up gases save us uhmmm? Maybe the gobal warming saves us from a long period of large sunspot that would have thrown us in to the ice age uhmmm?
WE JUST DON"T KNOW THE EFFECTS, stop freaking out over every endangered species!!imagine not being able to shoot the tranasaurus rex that eating your cows (by the thousand) because some TREE HUGGING caveman/cavewoman wanted to to put it on the endangered list. Some things are suppose to go away, so other things can thrive.
We should stop pretending to play god
LET THE STUPID PERISH!
p/s it would probably free up a lot of real estate in Cali.
Ed
p/s/s I would be more inclined to listen if people weren't getting rich sell ahhh Carbon Credits (what bullshit)
Maybe we could buy some off ebay for are LS1 and not have to have State Inspections.

For you Bush haters, nothings changed just a different old boys club in charge.

The fact remains, there is plenty of good science (not junk science) showing there may be a correlation, and the possibility can not be dismissed solely because climate change happened in the distant past that was clearly not manmade.
And that's exactly the problem. Just because "you can't dismiss something" doesn't mean we should all start changing our buying habits, especially when people are profiting off of it. But that's exactly what's happening.


There has been sort of a misrepresentation on the part of a lot of people that any scientific evidence for manmade climate change has come from Al Gore or the left wing of the political establishment, which is just false. There has been a lot of research going on for a while that is not political at all in nature.
Do you really want to talk about misrepresentation when it comes to global warming? Seriously? Politics are always involved. Carbon credits anybody?

great, instead of it being $55 to register my car every year, it will be $500 b/c it is "old" and not as "clean". Fuck you. I will pay it, idk, and i will still run around with my C/O open and pissing off the neighbors!

Maybe if their is gobal warming (IF) then it could end up saving us! Maybe the build up in the atmosphere of greenhouse gases will save us! We don't know whats coming and the effects. Maybe the sun will go through a long cycle of solar flares, that would have crippled the climate but are built up gases save us uhmmm? Maybe the gobal warming saves us from a long period of large sunspot that would have thrown us in to the ice age uhmmm?
WE JUST DON"T KNOW THE EFFECTS, stop freaking out over every endangered species!!imagine not being able to shoot the tranasaurus rex that eating your cows (by the thousand) because some TREE HUGGING caveman/cavewoman wanted to to put it on the endangered list. Some things are suppose to go away, so other things can thrive.
We should stop pretending to play god
LET THE STUPID PERISH!
p/s it would probably free up a lot of real estate in Cali.
Ed
p/s/s I would be more inclined to listen if people weren't getting rich sell ahhh Carbon Credits (what bullshit)
Maybe we could buy some off ebay for are LS1 and not have to have State Inspections.

For you Bush haters, nothings changed just a different old boys club in charge.

hahahah so your method is lets just wait we have a 50/50 shot uhmmm? it could be bad it could be good, maybe this enviromental change will save us. hmmm you do know in this case we are the "stupid" you talk about. Now if you set up ur cow pasture right by a trex nest because they were not roaming animals then you deserve dead cows. Think before speaking please. And i also have this weird feeling that part of you thinks cavemen actually where around t-rexs when you made that funny example.

The point I was trying to make is we clearly don't have enough information to make the right decision. So the best thing we could do would be to sit back and observe. Maybe you have forgotten or aren't old enough to remember the big ice age were were causing back in the 80's. Why we were so effective at that crisis that we have caused a warming crisis. Just go by carbon offset credits and then sell them to the sheep that want to drive their F-Bodys. I'm sure the current administration will be all to happy to legislate cap and trade for us gas guzzling owners.
Ed

If you can't see that emissions testing/visual inspections WILL be nationalized, you are blind.

It's the next big step... My state already has it. But it's nothing that can't be avoided with a few bucks $$$. Hell, Texas has emissions and visual too!!!!

I'm in Houston every 4 or 5 months. 95% of the performance cars down there, get around emissions one way or another.

But the fact of the matter, is that even Texas has adopted standards

Its like guns, make them illegal and only criminals will have them.

ok so i dont like bikes. cause they run the cops around here. so if cars get emissions. when they putting cats and mufflers and emissions on harleys and stupid other bikes

But it's nothing that can't be avoided with a few bucks $$$.
I know that goes on around here. plenty of emissions stations in rather poor areas.

Pathetic and ignorant

yup, sure is because when it all comes to be said and done who is doing what they say. i'm sorry i don't nut hug a politicians every word like a fan boy. i bet i should have believed bush when he said iraq had wmd too huh? i bet you believe anything you read in the paper, don't you.


I hear that argument all the time from people. Were you under the impression that Al Gore, Robert F. Kennedy, and Obama are somehow scamming you or...what..I guess I dont follow? They are asking for a cleaner cheaper technology to exist. Theyre not being smart asses by using traditional means of transportation.

my point is that while we are following these strict bullshit guidelines these fucks won't. when was the last time we had a honest politician. i don't think we ever have.

I never suggested I knew very much about life in California. I simply asked a question. I dont worry much about it because I think this is just "knee-jerk" type stuff meant to appeal to the "good ol" boys that never liked the president to begin with or already carry a bad attitude towards govt already. I dont want to see fast cars go a way at all and I dont think they will. I think they will evolve over time the same way the 60s muscle cars did

you remember how the 60's muscle car evolved? Into the anemic 180hp V8's of the 70's and 80's. Hell it took until the early 90's and the LT1 to bring horse power back to chevy!

Living in california sucks. I know that I will have to pay between 250-500 dollars to 'pass' smog on my car, and my registration on top of that is going to be another 300-500 bucks. If some of you (like this guy) dont think the cali regs are bad then come trade places with me so I can get the hell out of here.


Thankfully this will apply to new cars only, and the testing of older cars will probably not change so much.
My solution is this. I am going to buy an old car (whatever I can afford from the 60's or early 70's) and drop my current LS1 in it. Get a stock LS1 and put it in the camaro to DD. then I can do whatever I want to the old car and even the Cali govt wont say shit.

I just want to say thanks to all of you that either voted for hussein or didn't vote at all! Hopefully yall wont make the same mistake twice!

i bet i should have believed bush when he said iraq had wmd too huh?
Well um actually yes, they did. Chemical weapons out the ass and lots of yellow cake uranium. Cant attest to the uranium but I personally saw the chemical weapons. I bet you believe everything you see on the news dont you?

Sorry...moving on...

I hear that argument all the time from people. Were you under the impression that Al Gore, Robert F. Kennedy, and Obama are somehow scamming you or...what..I guess I dont follow? They are asking for a cleaner cheaper technology to exist. Theyre not being smart asses by using traditional means of transportation.
Al Gore favors enacting both the carbon credits and cap and trade systems. Al Gore's home energy usage is significantly higher than the average home. He also "purchases" carbon credits. I used the quotes for a reason. 5 points to anyone who knows why.

The fact of the matter is this: the government is using the "green movement" to gain more power, and using the justification of saving the planet to keep public opinion in their favor. What they are doing is reprehensible, unconstitutional, and makes me sick to my stomach.

yup, sure is because when it all comes to be said and done who is doing what they say. i'm sorry i don't nut hug a politicians every word like a fan boy. i bet i should have believed bush when he said iraq had wmd too huh? i bet you believe anything you read in the paper, don't you.

my point is that while we are following these strict bullshit guidelines these fucks won't. when was the last time we had a honest politician. i don't think we ever have.
:eyes: :bang:

Well um actually yes, they did. Chemical weapons out the ass and lots of yellow cake uranium. Cant attest to the uranium but I personally saw the chemical weapons. I bet you believe everything you see on the news dont you?

Sorry...moving on...

and that was all over the news too wasn't it?:eyes:

chemical weapons and yellow cake uranium does not mean they have wmd's. do you even know the percentage of uranium it takes to make weapons grade material. here is a hint, a nuclear power plant uses 5% 235 which is far from weapons grade.


:eyes: :bang:

I'm sorry I'm not an ass kisser and a follower, this is why i didn't stay in the military.i guess it is hard for you to view my point of the government should set an example. is that hard for you to take in the head?

Al Gore favors enacting both the carbon credits and cap and trade systems. Al Gore's home energy usage is significantly higher than the average home. He also "purchases" carbon credits. I used the quotes for a reason. 5 points to anyone who knows why.

The fact of the matter is this: the government is using the "green movement" to gain more power, and using the justification of saving the planet to keep public opinion in their favor. What they are doing is reprehensible, unconstitutional, and makes me sick to my stomach.



I'm not Gore supporter, but I know the claim his home uses more engery then the average home is a bit bogus. His house isn't the size of the 'average' home. I think he's house is 3 times the size of the average home, and both he and his wife run a business out of them.

I'm not Gore supporter, but I know the claim his home uses more engery then the average home is a bit bogus. His house isn't the size of the 'average' home. I think he's house is 3 times the size of the average home, and both he and his wife run a business out of them.

and this is the type of shit im getting at.

I'm not Gore supporter, but I know the claim his home uses more engery then the average home is a bit bogus. His house isn't the size of the 'average' home. I think he's house is 3 times the size of the average home, and both he and his wife run a business out of them.
Big deal, it's bigger. That's not the point. My parents' house is roughly 4 to 5 times the size of my apartment, yet it costs about half as much to heat in the winter and cool in the summer. You don't seem to know why I put quotes around "purchases" in regards to his carbon credits. Here's the deal

HE BUY CARBON CREDITS FROM THE COMPANY THAT HE OWNS! He's paying himself to offset his own "carbon footprint". Am I the only person that thinks that reeks of bullshit? Carbon credits are a blatantly bullshit moneymaking scheme and it's appalling that no one seems to have caught on yet.

It's quite amazing that these fools legislate what and how much emissions our vehicles and our plants put out to the point of running our manufacturers out of business in this country. Of course, we import these same products back into this country from China, India and other places that have little to no emission regulations. So much for making the entire world cleaner.

The govt is pushing for lower emissions and higher gas mileage too quickly . The automakers will have to make smaller, lighter vehicles to achieve this . This will be a Catch 22 as I think you will see more accident related deaths as a result. "Greener" but more bodies....

and that was all over the news too wasn't it?:eyes:

chemical weapons and yellow cake uranium does not mean they have wmd's. do you even know the percentage of uranium it takes to make weapons grade material. here is a hint, a nuclear power plant uses 5% 235 which is far from weapons grade.


I wouldnt know about the news, all I ever heard about was Kerry calling all of us retards and baby killers while I was away.

By the way chemical weapons are a weapon of mass destruction.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weapon%20of%20mass%20destruction

If I recall correctly US Nuclear policy stated (not sure about today) that we would respond to any strike on US soil using WMD (bio, chem, or nuke) with nuke's.

The govt is pushing for lower emissions and higher gas mileage too quickly . The automakers will have to make smaller, lighter vehicles to achieve this . This will be a Catch 22 as I think you will see more accident related deaths as a result. "Greener" but more bodies....

Which is why Im looking for a mid 60's car to restore. Id love to get into a wreck with a prius in my 69 Chevy step side pickup :devil:

I wouldnt know about the news, all I ever heard about was Kerry calling all of us retards and baby killers while I was away.

By the way chemical weapons are a weapon of mass destruction.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weapon%20of%20mass%20destruction

If I recall correctly US Nuclear policy stated (not sure about today) that we would respond to any strike on US soil using WMD (bio, chem, or nuke) with nuke's.

i seriously hate politicians.

hey I'm not saying it's 1005 truth I'm just saying it's bigger and older then the average house, so granted it's going to use more engery then the normal 2,000 sq foot house.

The committee he put in charge of restructuring Chrysler and GM had NO ONE with automotive industry experience!! A couple of them didn't even drive cars. Yet they tell GM their plan is no good! I'm afraid are vehicle are now going to be made by government motors. How did we Americans let this happen. I know, we thought those whack job fringe people were too crazy for the dumb lemmings in this country to believe. It sucks to be wrong. This country won't be great again till people are American first, not latino, african american, muslim, indian, chinese and what ever else. Wouldn't have been nice if being nominated for the Supreme Court was a great honor by istself not a great honor for a hispanic.
I truly believe the problem is we now longer consider performance and capability as the primary ingredients traits to seek. We instead pick people based on how they fit, there nationality their connections how can they further my (not countrys) agenda. Call me crazy but this is just one small example of the problem. Is Obama new pick for Supreme Court Judge the best candidate for the job? Yes, shes smart, 2nd at Princeton, so thats good. But 60% of her decisions were overturned by a higher court. Doesn't sound like someone who graduated 2nd? Could it be her decisions are based on her political beliefs and not the LAW? She quoted a marxist in her yearbook. Don't worry about that, says the wonderful news. Just like Obama's political ties don't matter. PLEASE AMERICA WAKE UP
I'm so tried of hearing Bush this and Bush that. I never once heard him make excuses for AMERCA. I absolutely do not agree with everything he did.
BUT on a grand scale what we got was classic.
THE GRASS IS NOT ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE.
Change for the sake of Change is Retarded but thats what happened.
The middle of the road is always best for the masses. Hello, America the person with the single most liberal/progressive (SOCIALIST) voting record was voted in. Now I know you all believed what you heard and read. He talks middle of the road but if you look at the man, he votes far left.
Just like me, I consider myself a right leaning centrist. I believe the average democrat in any town USA is probably middle left. This being said this far left fringe/whacko agenda is going to completely change this country. I fear and not for the better.
You do not have to worry about your muscle car emissions testing. You, unless your part of the ruling elite will not be able to afford to drive it to the inspection station.

Check (means stop for any of you that weren't in the military) your thinking anyway, COMRADE it is not good for glorious people of the Socialist Republic of America for you to drive your pretentious taste of excess from the past. You can do more for the motherland by taking the new Glorious State High Speed Rail.

This all sounds 1) funny to some of you.
2) crazy to some of you.
3) scary to me.

God Help Us All

Yes, I said god, I suppose some people out there want me to take all references to GOD out of my writings. I will not! Letsnot forget the fact that this country was founded by people of Christian beliefs.

NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

http://www.americansolutions.com/take-action/petition/index3.php

Just listen, and think.

We have already lost so much manufacturing to other countries. When we have even higher prices for energy here what will happen. We will lose more to overseas. Do these third world countries where labor is cheap have tight carbon emission standard or cap and trade. NO, therefore this effort to stop this so called gobal warming won’t work anyway. We will just lose more JOBS and export the process to countries that have less pollution regulations and further hurt the environment. \
I’m I MISSING SOMETHING, please so me the error of my thinking.
Wake up AMERICA before its to late.
Ed

The committee he put in charge of restructuring Chrysler and GM had NO ONE with automotive industry experience!! A couple of them didn't even drive cars. Yet they tell GM their plan is no good! I'm afraid are vehicle are now going to be made by government motors. How did we Americans let this happen. I know, we thought those whack job fringe people were too crazy for the dumb lemmings in this country to believe. It sucks to be wrong. This country won't be great again till people are American first, not latino, african american, muslim, indian, chinese and what ever else. Wouldn't have been nice if being nominated for the Supreme Court was a great honor by istself not a great honor for a hispanic.
I truly believe the problem is we now longer consider performance and capability as the primary ingredients traits to seek. We instead pick people based on how they fit, there nationality their connections how can they further my (not countrys) agenda. Call me crazy but this is just one small example of the problem. Is Obama new pick for Supreme Court Judge the best candidate for the job? Yes, shes smart, 2nd at Princeton, so thats good. But 60% of her decisions were overturned by a higher court. Doesn't sound like someone who graduated 2nd? Could it be her decisions are based on her political beliefs and not the LAW? She quoted a marxist in her yearbook. Don't worry about that, says the wonderful news. Just like Obama's political ties don't matter. PLEASE AMERICA WAKE UP
I'm so tried of hearing Bush this and Bush that. I never once heard him make excuses for AMERCA. I absolutely do not agree with everything he did.
BUT on a grand scale what we got was classic.
THE GRASS IS NOT ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE.
Change for the sake of Change is Retarded but thats what happened.
The middle of the road is always best for the masses. Hello, America the person with the single most liberal/progressive (SOCIALIST) voting record was voted in. Now I know you all believed what you heard and read. He talks middle of the road but if you look at the man, he votes far left.
Just like me, I consider myself a right leaning centrist. I believe the average democrat in any town USA is probably middle left. This being said this far left fringe/whacko agenda is going to completely change this country. I fear and not for the better.
You do not have to worry about your muscle car emissions testing. You, unless your part of the ruling elite will not be able to afford to drive it to the inspection station.

Check (means stop for any of you that weren't in the military) your thinking anyway, COMRADE it is not good for glorious people of the Socialist Republic of America for you to drive your pretentious taste of excess from the past. You can do more for the motherland by taking the new Glorious State High Speed Rail.

This all sounds 1) funny to some of you.
2) crazy to some of you.
3) scary to me.

God Help Us All

Yes, I said god, I suppose some people out there want me to take all references to GOD out of my writings. I will not! Letsnot forget the fact that this country was founded by people of Christian beliefs.



:werd:

The committee he put in charge of restructuring Chrysler and GM had NO ONE with automotive industry experience!! A couple of them didn't even drive cars. Yet they tell GM their plan is no good! I'm afraid are vehicle are now going to be made by government motors. How did we Americans let this happen. I know, we thought those whack job fringe people were too crazy for the dumb lemmings in this country to believe. It sucks to be wrong. This country won't be great again till people are American first, not latino, african american, muslim, indian, chinese and what ever else. Wouldn't have been nice if being nominated for the Supreme Court was a great honor by istself not a great honor for a hispanic.
I truly believe the problem is we now longer consider performance and capability as the primary ingredients traits to seek. We instead pick people based on how they fit, there nationality their connections how can they further my (not countrys) agenda. Call me crazy but this is just one small example of the problem. Is Obama new pick for Supreme Court Judge the best candidate for the job? Yes, shes smart, 2nd at Princeton, so thats good. But 60% of her decisions were overturned by a higher court. Doesn't sound like someone who graduated 2nd? Could it be her decisions are based on her political beliefs and not the LAW? She quoted a marxist in her yearbook. Don't worry about that, says the wonderful news. Just like Obama's political ties don't matter. PLEASE AMERICA WAKE UP
I'm so tried of hearing Bush this and Bush that. I never once heard him make excuses for AMERCA. I absolutely do not agree with everything he did.
BUT on a grand scale what we got was classic.
THE GRASS IS NOT ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE.
Change for the sake of Change is Retarded but thats what happened.
The middle of the road is always best for the masses. Hello, America the person with the single most liberal/progressive (SOCIALIST) voting record was voted in. Now I know you all believed what you heard and read. He talks middle of the road but if you look at the man, he votes far left.
Just like me, I consider myself a right leaning centrist. I believe the average democrat in any town USA is probably middle left. This being said this far left fringe/whacko agenda is going to completely change this country. I fear and not for the better.
You do not have to worry about your muscle car emissions testing. You, unless your part of the ruling elite will not be able to afford to drive it to the inspection station.

Check (means stop for any of you that weren't in the military) your thinking anyway, COMRADE it is not good for glorious people of the Socialist Republic of America for you to drive your pretentious taste of excess from the past. You can do more for the motherland by taking the new Glorious State High Speed Rail.

This all sounds 1) funny to some of you.
2) crazy to some of you.
3) scary to me.

God Help Us All

Yes, I said god, I suppose some people out there want me to take all references to GOD out of my writings. I will not! Letsnot forget the fact that this country was founded by people of Christian beliefs.

NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

You really think its socialist or people acting under extraordinary circumstances? When you say "comrade" that leads me to think your confusing this with communism which isnt exactly socialism. Are you sure this isnt another case of bitterness because you lost the election in November. "When the guy that you disagree with gets elected hes probably gonna do things you disagree with. He could invade a country or cut taxes for the wealthy but thats not socialism, thats Democracy, its supposed to taste like a sh%t taco, And if I remember correctly when disagreement was expressed when ya'll were in power I think it was answered with "why do you hate America?" Watch what you say, love it or leave it, sux on my truck nut" who said it lol

Thats funny, like the truck nuts that hang from the rear of my 2500HD Duramax. Yeah, well did you know some politician was trying to outlaw those in Florida.

But typical your disagreement contains no real counter points to my points:
1) The group overseeing auto restructuring has no experience.
2) America needs to come first!
3) Pick for the Supreme Court has 60% overturn rate.

FOR ONCE ADDRESS THE ISSUES, don't just spew hate talk.

You read but you did not comprehend, I said a moderate approach was better to government. Something down the middle. I spent 23 years in the Navy paying my dues to the country. I never said you a "you hate america". I said America needs to come first. PAY ATTENTON to what I SAID "I consider myself a right leaning centrist. I believe the average democrat in any town USA is probably middle left." I did complain and voice my dissatification with the far right agenda.

To address your point: Below is the webster definition for both I left which one was which off. Hard to tell isn't it comrade!

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state : 3 a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
1 a: a theory advocating elimination of private property b: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed 2capitalized a: a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably

i dont know why everyone is saying fuk california when its the govt that is trying to pass this. and anyone who lives in cali that mods their cars SAYS FUK THE POICE AND THE FED GOVT!!!!!!! i will agree that the emissions crap here in cali sucks ass, but rules WERE MEANT TO BE BROKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i also agree to impeach BO he will not do anything for our country. i honestly can not believe he got voted in. i say bring back clinton lol.


it might be time to act upon our 2nd amendment seeing how the govt/ country is becoming out of control.

lol why are you hating on cali? it's not like we're enforcing emissions laws on the country...

PS as someone who ACTUALLY lives in cali, there are plenty of fast cars here, because there are also plenty of crooked smog men... and I'm sure if it passes they'll be plenty more to go around...

Thats funny, like the truck nuts that hang from the rear of my 2500HD Duramax. Yeah, well did you know some politician was trying to outlaw those in Florida.

But typical your disagreement contains no real counter points to my points:
1) The group overseeing auto restructuring has no experience.
2) America needs to come first!
3) Pick for the Supreme Court has 60% overturn rate.

FOR ONCE ADDRESS THE ISSUES, don't just spew hate talk.


I think the majority of you on here bad mouthing the administration are bitter over the Nov. elections and want to make yourselves feel important and over exaggerate whats really being done. If you disagree with his ideas thats fine but to go further and act as if Stalin has taken over Washington D.C. is just insane and a big example of how well certain politicians have divided this country into camps and virtually shut all progress down. It makes it hard for me to take anyone seriously when it turns into a "Im so much of a patriot that ill bad mouth the evil tyrannical leader of our country". Why isnt it enough to just simply disagree without dramatizing it?

Furthermore, the auto execs sux something awful at running the auto industry so it shouldnt make a difference whos really doing it. I think they should have plenty of say so in how to fix it but I fail to see what difference it would make. GM has little understanding of a middle class auto industry and how to make cars for a large group of people that have little money. They make more great products that no one can afford to buy and need a major overhaul. I wish the guys from the 60s were still around then I can agree with ya more

I think the majority of you on here bad mouthing the administration are bitter over the Nov. elections and want to make yourselves feel important and over exaggerate whats really being done. If you disagree with his ideas thats fine but to go further and act as if Stalin has taken over Washington D.C. is just insane and a big example of how well certain politicians have divided this country into camps and virtually shut all progress down. It makes it hard for me to take anyone seriously when it turns into a "Im so much of a patriot that ill bad mouth the evil tyrannical leader of our country". Why isnt it enough to just simply disagree without dramatizing it?

Furthermore, the auto execs sux something awful at running the auto industry so it shouldnt make a difference whos really doing it. I think they should have plenty of say so in how to fix it but I fail to see what difference it would make. GM has little understanding of a middle class auto industry and how to make cars for a large group of people that have little money. They make more great products that no one can afford to buy and need a major overhaul. I wish the guys from the 60s were still around then I can agree with ya more

I noticed your lack comment on the definitions: You were quick to say how over reactive I was being and that socialism is not communism. Did you notice websters or are they right wing bias too???

ed

I noticed your lack comment on the definitions: You were quick to say how over reactive I was being and that socialism is not communism. Did you notice websters or are they right wing bias too???

ed

Yeah I noticed it and in no way see where youre going with it other then to make some comparison between socialism and communism. And im saying your making assertions based upon only 100+ days. Thats over reacting and immature. No ones banging on your door and placing you in prison camps or infringing your rights as a citizen. I think you need to settle down a little bit and just agree to disagree. If hes wrong then we vote him out of office as our DEMOCRATIC society does and he will gracefully step aside.

BRD-PREY, couple things.

Do you think putting something in huge type will really make it come across as any better reasoned?

Also, if you want to present an informed opinion it would be better to avoid distortions like this.

3) Pick for the Supreme Court has 60% overturn rate.
The person he picked for the Supreme Court had 3 cases overturned out of 380. 60% was of the cases reviewed by the SC. But since the SC will often just choose not to review a case that it agrees with, that means that her real overturn rate is 3/380 = 0.79%

Secondly, what does that even have to do with the topic of this thread? It's clear that you do not care for Obama. Fine. But you're just bringing in unrelated things that do nothing to add to the discussion on this topic, and that just makes you come across as non-objective about what you are saying regarding it.

BRD-PREY, couple things.

Do you think putting something in huge type will really make it come across as any better reasoned?

:D:jest:

Secondly, what does that even have to do with the topic of this thread? It's clear that you do not care for Obama. Fine. But you're just bringing in unrelated things that do nothing to add to the discussion on this topic, and that just makes you come across as non-objective about what you are saying regarding it.

I always enjoy this section and love debating the auto industry but its inevitable and unavoidable that politics and political ideology will be attached to these threads and can easily get off topic which is ok. To see it turn into a good vs. evil and become over exaggerated for the intent of further justifying ones ideals on a subject is just outrageous. Obamas a father and reasonable human being the same as any of us and is doing what he sees fit in his term and when his time is complete he will turn it over gracefully as his predecessors have done and we will have someone new to complain about.

[SIZE="1"]The reason I used different size print is to bring out certain issues or points that get overlooked. Does this size print work better for your screen resolution.
1. To quote wannabess00 First you write this "leads me to think your confusing this with communism which isnt exactly socialism."
Then your write this, "[Yeah I noticed it and in no way see where youre going with it other then to make some comparison between socialism and communism"
Yet you don't see where I'm going with this????
I don't know just correcting view of socialism, it is a major step towards and not all that far away from communism.
So, yes I was saying that the issue is I wasn't confused, YOU didn't see the relationship./SIZE]

as far as "Obamas a father and reasonable human"
thats your criteria for leading the Country?????
My point is that has no bearing on his qualifications to lead the country.
P.S. Bush has kids

infinitebird Issue 2 first Not much in direct relation to the title, but it was long since hijacked, as I got into after WMD! The time I looked WMD hasn't been dropped on Cali or part of the emission standards penalty. i suppose
i'm really just scared not about change just the scope and breath of it. I see a way of life going away.
But on a small note I actually don't think Obama is the problem just a symptom of a bigger issue.

Issue 1 Fact they review 5 overturned 3.
Of the majority opinions that Judge Sonia Sotomayor has authored since becoming an appellate judge in 1998, three of her appellate opinions have been overturned by the Supreme Court.

Our search for appellate opinions by Sotomayor on the LexisNexis database returned 232 cases. That's a reversal rate of 1.3 percent.

But only five of her decisions have been reviewed by the justices. Using five as a denominator, the rate comes out to 60 percent.
source Newsweek hardly a right wing blog

My point is he picks people for jobs that aren't the best qualified! Thats the problem with are country the best aren't put where they can do the best for the country. I totally agree that both sides do it.
A person who cheats on his taxes is put in charge of the Treasury Department. Thats like putting me in charge of DOT. Pure Hypocrisy cut and dry. OUR COUNTRY ISN'T GOING TO GET ANY BETTER
UNTIL THIS STOPS!

I'm objective with how I look at the facts. I'm opinioned after I look at the facts. I don't think we have someone that is taking the country I love in the right direction.

Besides I have kept my discussions to Obama and his decision making, that reflects on how he decided on Nationalize California Emission Standard & Stengthen CAFE. I didn't bring up WMD, carbon footprint etc.
Ed

I think the majority of you on here bad mouthing the administration are bitter over the Nov. elections and want to make yourselves feel important and over exaggerate whats really being done. If you disagree with his ideas thats fine but to go further and act as if Stalin has taken over Washington D.C. is just insane and a big example of how well certain politicians have divided this country into camps and virtually shut all progress down. It makes it hard for me to take anyone seriously when it turns into a "Im so much of a patriot that ill bad mouth the evil tyrannical leader of our country". Why isnt it enough to just simply disagree without dramatizing it?

Furthermore, the auto execs sux something awful at running the auto industry so it shouldnt make a difference whos really doing it. I think they should have plenty of say so in how to fix it but I fail to see what difference it would make. GM has little understanding of a middle class auto industry and how to make cars for a large group of people that have little money. They make more great products that no one can afford to buy and need a major overhaul. I wish the guys from the 60s were still around then I can agree with ya more


:hail: x 1000
Thank you sir!!! :thumb:

[SIZE="1"]The reason I used different size print is to bring out certain issues or points that get overlooked. Does this size print work better for your screen resolution.
1. To quote wannabess00 First you write this "leads me to think your confusing this with communism which isnt exactly socialism."
Then your write this, "[Yeah I noticed it and in no way see where youre going with it other then to make some comparison between socialism and communism"
Yet you don't see where I'm going with this????
I don't know just correcting view of socialism, it is a major step towards and not all that far away from communism.
So, yes I was saying that the issue is I wasn't confused, YOU didn't see the relationship./SIZE]

as far as "Obamas a father and reasonable human"
thats your criteria for leading the Country?????
My point is that has no bearing on his qualifications to lead the country.
P.S. Bush has kids

infinitebird Issue 2 first Not much in direct relation to the title, but it was long since hijacked, as I got into after WMD! The time I looked WMD hasn't been dropped on Cali or part of the emission standards penalty. i suppose
i'm really just scared not about change just the scope and breath of it. I see a way of life going away.
But on a small note I actually don't think Obama is the problem just a symptom of a bigger issue.

Issue 1 Fact they review 5 overturned 3.
Of the majority opinions that Judge Sonia Sotomayor has authored since becoming an appellate judge in 1998, three of her appellate opinions have been overturned by the Supreme Court.

Our search for appellate opinions by Sotomayor on the LexisNexis database returned 232 cases. That's a reversal rate of 1.3 percent.

But only five of her decisions have been reviewed by the justices. Using five as a denominator, the rate comes out to 60 percent.
source Newsweek hardly a right wing blog

My point is he picks people for jobs that aren't the best qualified! Thats the problem with are country the best aren't put where they can do the best for the country. I totally agree that both sides do it.
A person who cheats on his taxes is put in charge of the Treasury Department. Thats like putting me in charge of DOT. Pure Hypocrisy cut and dry. OUR COUNTRY ISN'T GOING TO GET ANY BETTER
UNTIL THIS STOPS!

I'm objective with how I look at the facts. I'm opinioned after I look at the facts. I don't think we have someone that is taking the country I love in the right direction.

Besides I have kept my discussions to Obama and his decision making, that reflects on how he decided on Nationalize California Emission Standard & Stengthen CAFE. I didn't bring up WMD, carbon footprint etc.
Ed


Its ok to be somewhat brief. No one will think less of you. When you turn a reply into a lengthy rant it often gets over looked. My point in saying that hes a reasonable person and father is to humanize the character people like you have unfairly created him to be. One step in the direction of socialism or communism means nothing if another leader will just back step towards another type of "ism" lol.

And yes, this is getting way off topic.

lol why are you hating on cali?
Because it's a fucked up broke-ass state full of tree-hugging idiots?

I'm just saying...

PS. I lived there for 30 years.

wannabess00, infinitebird, I pasted yesterdays Pravda Russia's Newspaper Article. This is what I was trying to get across. The country is running now install of crawling towards a major change. I for one do not think was the future are countrys founders layed out for us. This is a Non US certainly not with a US political slant. They is anyone should know.

It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people.

True, the situation has been well prepared on and off for the past century, especially the past twenty years. The initial testing grounds was conducted upon our Holy Russia and a bloody test it was. But we Russians would not just roll over and give up our freedoms and our souls, no matter how much money Wall Street poured into the fists of the Marxists.

Those lessons were taken and used to properly prepare the American populace for the surrender of their freedoms and souls, to the whims of their elites and betters.

First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather then the classics. Americans know more about their favorite TV dramas then the drama in DC that directly affects their lives. They care more for their "right" to choke down a McDonalds burger or a BurgerKing burger than for their constitutional rights. Then they turn around and lecture us about our rights and about our "democracy". Pride blind the foolish.

Then their faith in God was destroyed, until their churches, all tens of thousands of different "branches and denominations" were for the most part little more then Sunday circuses and their televangelists and top protestant mega preachers were more then happy to sell out their souls and flocks to be on the "winning" side of one pseudo Marxist politician or another. Their flocks may complain, but when explained that they would be on the "winning" side, their flocks were ever so quick to reject Christ in hopes for earthly power. Even our Holy Orthodox churches are scandalously liberalized in America.

The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been a record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more then another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe.

These past two weeks have been the most breath taking of all. First came the announcement of a planned redesign of the American Byzantine tax system, by the very thieves who used it to bankroll their thefts, loses and swindles of hundreds of billions of dollars. These make our Russian oligarchs look little more then ordinary street thugs, in comparison. Yes, the Americans have beat our own thieves in the shear volumes. Should we congratulate them?

wannabess00, infinitebird, I pasted yesterdays Pravda Russia's Newspaper Article. This is what I was trying to get across. The country is running now install of crawling towards a major change. I for one do not think was the future are countrys founders layed out for us. This is a Non US certainly not with a US political slant. They is anyone should know.

It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people.

True, the situation has been well prepared on and off for the past century, especially the past twenty years. The initial testing grounds was conducted upon our Holy Russia and a bloody test it was. But we Russians would not just roll over and give up our freedoms and our souls, no matter how much money Wall Street poured into the fists of the Marxists.

Those lessons were taken and used to properly prepare the American populace for the surrender of their freedoms and souls, to the whims of their elites and betters.

First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather then the classics. Americans know more about their favorite TV dramas then the drama in DC that directly affects their lives. They care more for their "right" to choke down a McDonalds burger or a BurgerKing burger than for their constitutional rights. Then they turn around and lecture us about our rights and about our "democracy". Pride blind the foolish.

Then their faith in God was destroyed, until their churches, all tens of thousands of different "branches and denominations" were for the most part little more then Sunday circuses and their televangelists and top protestant mega preachers were more then happy to sell out their souls and flocks to be on the "winning" side of one pseudo Marxist politician or another. Their flocks may complain, but when explained that they would be on the "winning" side, their flocks were ever so quick to reject Christ in hopes for earthly power. Even our Holy Orthodox churches are scandalously liberalized in America.

The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been a record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more then another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe.

These past two weeks have been the most breath taking of all. First came the announcement of a planned redesign of the American Byzantine tax system, by the very thieves who used it to bankroll their thefts, loses and swindles of hundreds of billions of dollars. These make our Russian oligarchs look little more then ordinary street thugs, in comparison. Yes, the Americans have beat our own thieves in the shear volumes. Should we congratulate them?

Marxism!?!?! Really?!? Again, Since you've already stated youre right-leaning. Thats leading me to believe that you would proclaim that McCain wouldve been the heroic patriot combating the evil "Marxist" democrats but all us stupid star struck liberals just thought Obama was God and couldnt see the terrifying plan that Obama was going to rule the world...OMG run...!!!!!! I think your so far from reality on this and want so badly for everyone to turn on this president

Marxism!?!?! Really?!? Again, Since you've already stated youre right-leaning. Thats leading me to believe that you would proclaim that McCain wouldve been the heroic patriot combating the evil "Marxist" democrats but all us stupid star struck liberals just thought Obama was God and couldnt see the terrifying plan that Obama was going to rule the world...OMG run...!!!!!! I think your so far from reality on this and want so badly for everyone to turn on this president
You didn't even read his post, did you? He posted an article from a Russian paper. An article from a country that has been down the road we're traveling. You know what they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Do you really think Obama is anything more than a puppet? He's the best puppet there is, too, because such a vast majority of people are willing to blindly follow him wherever he takes them and not raise a single question until it is much too late. His election has managed to get almost 100% of the people in Philadelphia to shut up about the government simply because he's black. Why am I using his skin color to justify it? Because all the people in Philly are using his skin color as proof that everything will be ok. And I should know, I live there.

Here's the facts for you: The government is going to control both Chrysler and GM. That, by definition, is socialistic. The treasury is printing "money" at an alarming rate, which is going to seriously devalue the dollar in a very short period of time (read: hyperinflation). When the dollar is worth a penny, what good is the current pay rate of America? When a week's pay will buy you a loaf of bread, and maybe some water, what are you going to do? Don't think it's going to happen? Like I mentioned earlier, it already happened to Russia.

some people do not understand that history does repeat itself.

wannabess00 I wonder if you even read what I posted? I never said I was REPUBLICAN, I descibed myself as right leaning to describe the role of federal government in our lives. In fact, I have many left views on stuff like drugs/prostitution/abortion/gov't regulation/seat belt laws etc. On the right I 'm for a strong defense/finiancial and health care thats regulated for the truly needy, and borders that are borders.
The problem is not democrats or republicans but politicians. McCain was not the answer but is he was more toward the middle. He co-authored bills with Fienstien/Kennedy he was willing to work across the party. I think thats why Far Right Repubs let him hang out to dry. The Problem with all the current politcians is:
1) They are in it for the power and influence and getting and staying elected is all they care about. NOT THE COUNTRY
2) LOBBISTs that fact they can write a bill 1000 pages long one day and it get voted on the next sums it all up.
3) They all owe so many favors that it is impossible for them to be objective.

I don't have the answer.
This country is doomed until the masses become more informed. That means you. YES, I said you were uninformed, the only point you posted to support your position was that he was married and had kids! You have not introduced one solid piece of information, is that really all you know to support your decision that this Government is on the right road? I was just posting the things I found that bother me.
I listen to NPR/CNN/Fox etc. I try to get the info as best I can to make my own objective opinion. I critically listen to everything. By nature I'm critical. Some would say a to a fault, perhaps. Limbaugh just like MSNBC Obermann and quite a few others leave out the facts that don't support there agenda. You have to look through that and form you own opinion!

XXGRABSXX His point if well heeded! IF the US DOLLAR ever losses its position as an international currency (oil is traded in dollars) we are really are screwed!! The dollars value will go to shit and it will cost $20.00 to buy a gallon of milk.

Seriously, where do we get the money for this? The bush administration started us down this road by spending all this money.
Now they are talking about a VAT to pay for this. Do you know the history of a VAT. Do we then have a VAT and Income tax????
For politicians, the VAT was great news. Besides being a new source of revenue, the VAT has been a disturbingly easy tax to increase since it’s built into the price of products and hidden from consumers. Moreover, even small increases generate a big pile of revenue because the tax base is so broad. The tax has become so easy to raise that VAT rates in Europe average more than 20 percent.
For taxpayers, however, the news has been disastrous. Thanks to this levy, the burden of government in Europe today is much higher than it is in the U.S. On average, taxes consume about 41 percent of Europe’s economic output. While other taxes have also climbed, the VAT certainly has helped finance the explosion of social welfare spending that creates such a drag on European economies.
Ed
I do enjoy debating displacement vs rpm more, but we may be discussing how to get more current into our electric windings in the primary drive motor!
Ed

You didn't even read his post, did you? He posted an article from a Russian paper. An article from a country that has been down the road we're traveling. You know what they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Do you really think Obama is anything more than a puppet? He's the best puppet there is, too, because such a vast majority of people are willing to blindly follow him wherever he takes them and not raise a single question until it is much too late. His election has managed to get almost 100% of the people in Philadelphia to shut up about the government simply because he's black. Why am I using his skin color to justify it? Because all the people in Philly are using his skin color as proof that everything will be ok. And I should know, I live there.

Here's the facts for you: The government is going to control both Chrysler and GM. That, by definition, is socialistic. The treasury is printing "money" at an alarming rate, which is going to seriously devalue the dollar in a very short period of time (read: hyperinflation). When the dollar is worth a penny, what good is the current pay rate of America? When a week's pay will buy you a loaf of bread, and maybe some water, what are you going to do? Don't think it's going to happen? Like I mentioned earlier, it already happened to Russia.


I read his statement a couple times actually. And I wont dignify it with much a response same as many of your remarks. Youre comparing a mock up democracy that is dealing with huge political division. Thats really the only close comparison between us and them and its caused by people such as yourself that are to such an extreme political ideology that any opposition to your ideals is likewise considered extreme or apart of some dishonest conspiracy. And to suggest that I and so many others voted for him based on his skin color is an insult and proof that your bitter over the loss in the november elections and trying to appeal to racism to justify your anger and deserve no real consideration.

As far as GM and Chrysler go, you dont really believe that the federal govt intends to permanently own the auto companies. I think most of you are being opportunists and wanting so badly to have the "i told you so" titles. Youre really no different from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or even the liberals that blamed Bush in that you never liked the guy and will scape coat him or any other figure that doesnt reside on your side of the fence for all of lifes problems. GM and Chrysler will be bought in time by other businessmen when the economy comes back and you'll be right there to claim that as a liberal socialist conspiracy or crooked deal as well. Cant wait:eyes:

About wannabess00
Biography
DNC strategist
Location
Coal Valley, IL
Occupation
UAW member

this is your profile!!!!! You poor thing you never had a chance. I couldn't imagine going through life without an independent thought!
The worst part is, you had the audaucity too suggest I was bias!

The really pathetic part is you make those claims on your signature and you can't even hold a reasonable discuss on the issues. You just slander with , "extreme poltical views" please quote me as to what I said that would suggest I have extreme political views.

FOR THE UPTENTH TIME I"M MIDDLE OF THE ROAD! I like some left issues and some right. So that makes me extreme how?

Change, change, 'Change We Can Believe In' , Change, change
thats what all the excited lambs were saying,
as they left the not so green field,
and entered the slaughter house.

Limbaugh just like MSNBC Obermann and quite a few others leave out the facts that don't support there agenda. You have to look through that and form you own opinion!
Well I certainly agree with this. I wish more people realized this than just peddling one ideology as always right.

I read his statement a couple times actually. And I wont dignify it with much a response same as many of your remarks. Youre comparing a mock up democracy that is dealing with huge political division. Thats really the only close comparison between us and them and its caused by people such as yourself that are to such an extreme political ideology that any opposition to your ideals is likewise considered extreme or apart of some dishonest conspiracy. And to suggest that I and so many others voted for him based on his skin color is an insult and proof that your bitter over the loss in the november elections and trying to appeal to racism to justify your anger and deserve no real consideration.

As far as GM and Chrysler go, you dont really believe that the federal govt intends to permanently own the auto companies. I think most of you are being opportunists and wanting so badly to have the "i told you so" titles. Youre really no different from Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or even the liberals that blamed Bush in that you never liked the guy and will scape coat him or any other figure that doesnt reside on your side of the fence for all of lifes problems. GM and Chrysler will be bought in time by other businessmen when the economy comes back and you'll be right there to claim that as a liberal socialist conspiracy or crooked deal as well. Cant wait:eyes:
Won't dignify it with a response? That's just a bullshit way to get out of a corner that you can't get out of with honor and integrity because you don't have a credible counter-point of your own.

I want to know why (and how) you think Barack Obama is going to fix everything and return America to greatness. I also want to know why you think the government is responsible for the economy.

This isn't the first time I've been called an extremist by a democrat, but it is the first time I've been equated with Rush Limbaugh (who I find to be a horrible human being) and Sean Hannity (who I don't find much better). And please don't resort to calling people you disagree with extremists and/or bitter over Obama's election.

:jest: :jest:


that's one way of letting your politicians know where you stand.

I can guarantee you that Texas and a few other states won't allow this to happen (Utah, Montana, Alaska, hopefully Florida... I wish I could put Missouri with this list but can't). States are getting more and more fed up with the Fed telling them what to do, which isn't the Fed's role (according to that old document that doesn't mean anything anymore... the constitution :eyes: )

As soon as a state denies to uphold this mandate you can bet I'll be moving there... Texas here I come

Can't forget oklahoma. they proudly did away with all inspections and smog testing some time ago. i wasn't even driving then.

Won't dignify it with a response? That's just a bullshit way to get out of a corner that you can't get out of with honor and integrity because you don't have a credible counter-point of your own.

I want to know why (and how) you think Barack Obama is going to fix everything and return America to greatness. I also want to know why you think the government is responsible for the economy.

This isn't the first time I've been called an extremist by a democrat, but it is the first time I've been equated with Rush Limbaugh (who I find to be a horrible human being) and Sean Hannity (who I don't find much better). And please don't resort to calling people you disagree with extremists and/or bitter over Obama's election.

For starters I would assume to know Obamas solutions in any kinda detail because im not in the meetings. But I will say that he does intend on making govt more active in the recovery which is fine by me considering the state we are in. I think govt is responsible to the economy in that it can cripple its people and leave a trail of devastation behind. Millions are unemployed and losing their homes and while business is asking the govt for help. Id be more concerned if they were not taking an active approach.

2ndly, YOU JUST CLAIMED THAT A MAN WON AN ELECTION BASED PRIMARILY UPON THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN!! That's a remark that is extremely ignorant and offensive. I for one found him to have the energy and a high intellegence level considering he graduated from harvard and was active community organizer. His skin color made no difference to me

For starters I would assume to know Obamas solutions in any kinda detail because im not in the meetings. But I will say that he does intend on making govt more active in the recovery which is fine by me considering the state we are in. I think govt is responsible to the economy in that it can cripple its people and leave a trail of devastation behind. Millions are unemployed and losing their homes and while business is asking the govt for help. Id be more concerned if they were not taking an active approach.

2ndly, YOU JUST CLAIMED THAT A MAN WON AN ELECTION BASED PRIMARILY UPON THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN!! That's a remark that is extremely ignorant and offensive. I for one found him to have the energy and a high intellegence level considering he graduated from harvard and was active community organizer. His skin color made no difference to me


I don't think he got voted 100% on color but I think he got 50% on color. But that is too political and we need to watch it if we want this thread to stay open

[QUOTE=camar0corey;11619573]Um I want to know when I can vote against this? I've never voted on a thing in my life

This is the problem
" I've never voted on a thing in my life"

When will you start voting?
Are you too young to vote or don't you care enough to vote? which one?

They can't change regs for cars that have already been built. It's not like your 2002 model year car will become illegal just because it can't meet the 2016 MPG standards. All this talk is for NEW cars coming out, not the stuff that's already been built.

I doubt that CA-style state emissions inspection testing would be madated nationwide. Just think about the low population areas of the country, I mean, where is a county in northern Montana going to get the sort of cash needed to setup test facilities like those found in southern CA?

Honestly, the worst thing that can happen is that our cars will be forced to meet the emissions standards that they were built to acheive in the first place. But for areas/states without inspections, it's going to take a lot of cash to get those programs going. I don't see the fed coming up with that cash for each and every county of each and every state, so my guess is that enforcement/testing will be left up to the descretion of the states like it is today.

Fed will only mandate certain nationwide regs for new cars being sold. That's what I take from this news.

I'm glad someone is being rational here.
I agree with you and believe you are completely right.

I don't think he got voted 100% on color but I think he got 50% on color. But that is too political and we need to watch it if we want this thread to stay open

Hmm I can't tell you everyone's reason for voting. but I can tell you this:
95% of African Americans voted for Obama.

more importantly (IMO) he got voted in on Age. More people in the range of 18-24 voted than previous elections and specifically he really won in the 18-29 range.

I'm not going to bring my further opinions in on it because lets just say I think a lot of people in that age group voted the way they did for the wrong reasons.

About wannabess00
Biography
DNC strategist
Location
Coal Valley, IL
Occupation
UAW member

this is your profile!!!!! You poor thing you never had a chance. I couldn't imagine going through life without an independent thought!
The worst part is, you had the audaucity too suggest I was bias!

The really pathetic part is you make those claims on your signature and you can't even hold a reasonable discuss on the issues. You just slander with , "extreme poltical views" please quote me as to what I said that would suggest I have extreme political views.

FOR THE UPTENTH TIME I"M MIDDLE OF THE ROAD! I like some left issues and some right. So that makes me extreme how?

Change, change, 'Change We Can Believe In' , Change, change
thats what all the excited lambs were saying,
as they left the not so green field,
and entered the slaughter house.


WOW! You are a crazy person. For starters the DNC strategist was a joke from SSU and about 3yrs old. The UAW member is fact and Im proud of it. You might feel certain ways towards differet issues that would not suggest anyone party but you certainly lack in rational thought and suggest any govt intervention as a leadway to a socialist dictatorship. You now claim that my beliefs are based upon a layed out platform of ideals that I just conform to with little thought or consideration. I actually am apart of an advisory board with the UAW and am constantly questioning politics Im skeptical of and get into enough discussions with congressmen and their staff that I like and dislike

Hmm I can't tell you everyone's reason for voting. but I can tell you this:
95% of African Americans voted for Obama.

more importantly (IMO) he got voted in on Age. More people in the range of 18-24 voted than previous elections and specifically he really won in the 18-29 range.

I'm not going to bring my further opinions in on it because lets just say I think a lot of people in that age group voted the way they did for the wrong reasons.
Couldn't agree more. :nod:

Sad what campaigns and elections have turned into, isn't it?

for the obama voters: i told you so.


for all the others: theres still hope f we can get control of conggress back to conservatives and get rid of the great oreo (lets face it, hes not black) in 2012

Hmm I can't tell you everyone's reason for voting. but I can tell you this:
95% of African Americans voted for Obama.

more importantly (IMO) he got voted in on Age. More people in the range of 18-24 voted than previous elections and specifically he really won in the 18-29 range.

I'm not going to bring my further opinions in on it because lets just say I think a lot of people in that age group voted the way they did for the wrong reasons.


Well I didn't want to be that obvious but I agree, specially on the age thing. It's amazing how people were so scared of McCains age. I guess they had a right, I don't know about Palin...she scared me a bit.

Oh well elections over...

Hmm I can't tell you everyone's reason for voting. but I can tell you this:
95% of African Americans voted for Obama.

more importantly (IMO) he got voted in on Age. More people in the range of 18-24 voted than previous elections and specifically he really won in the 18-29 range.

I'm not going to bring my further opinions in on it because lets just say I think a lot of people in that age group voted the way they did for the wrong reasons.

He also got the educated vote, college-educated voters and voters with post-graduate degrees.

He also got the educated vote, college-educated voters and voters with post-graduate degrees.

g.w bush went to good schools and has degrees. that doesn't matter when it comes to a election, degree or not doesn't give you common sense.

I think he got 50% on color
This has got to be the most absurd statement in this thread, lmao.

Black people only make up about 13% of the US. Even if every single black person voted for him because he was black, that's nowhere near 50%. Obama would not have won without the white vote. Are you really suggesting that a sizable portion of the while population voted for him because he was black? Makes no sense. Even if you include ALL minorities, that's still nowhere near 50%.

Obama won because:

1. we were in an economic crisis and historically Americans have rated Democrats higher on the economy
2. there was an unpopular outgoing president who was a Republican, and Obama's whole campaign strategy was to tie McCain to Bush, and it worked
3. Sarah Palin :lol: (maybe you blood red conservatives liked her but I can tell you that she turned off a LOT of independents)

This has gotten way too political and lost the topic.