Canadian Members - Watch Out

I got royally fucked on Friday night. Watch out for the Ministry of the Environment being out on the prowl.

Keep you eyes open: if you see something that looks like a 'ride program' near a local car hangout area, turn around ASAP. They are looking for any missing (or tampered with) emissions devices.

This praticular one was in Ottawa, on Maryvale road.

From another forum I post on:

"I finally got the chance to go out on Friday night and do a datalog with it in hopes to finish up my tune. I was on my way to a local hang-out spot. I came up to what looked like a 'ride program' (for drunk drivers). No problem, or so I thought. Until I saw two Ricers with their hoods up on the side of the road. By then it was too late to pull a U-turn.

I had a wideband cable out the window, cables-galore for HP tuners and the LM2, and an open laptop with VE tables etc. The police demanded I park behind the civic. The Ministry of the Environment had people out who tore car apart (figureatively). $365 for no EGR, and $110 for no front license plate. I got off easier than I should have.

If I'm caught with any emissions devices missing, I lose my license plates."


http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs257.snc1/10433_1156905816638_1647510015_396251_3086128_n.jp g

http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs277.snc1/10433_1156931257274_1647510015_396283_937882_n.jpg

shitness im glad i havnt change my plate :D

The most frustrating part is that my car passes an emissions test, yet I still get fined.

Ouch...the licence plate ticket is easy to get out of...seriously, I already evaded one this year...

How could they tell you were missing the egr? I know they don't know every car, and not every car has an egr...what stops you from saying the car doesnt have it? Or could they see the blockoff plates?

Did they go through your tune files on the laptop?

You said you had no EGR, so did you end up loosing your plates?

How did you get out of the license plate one?

The guy from the MOE was a licensed mechanic. On the driver side fender well of the car there is a sticker which says what the vehicle is (should be) equipped with. Something like: SFI/EGR/AIR/HO2S and a couple others. There is also a diagram showing where the EGR should be. Clearly, it wasn't there. He didn't notice the block-offs.

They didn't go through the files. They really wouldn't have seen anything interesting though. I was not logging vehicle speed, which is really the only thing that they could potentially give me a ticket for.

If I'm pulled over again and it's not fixed, I will lose them (apparently).

Ouch...the licence plate ticket is easy to get out of...seriously, I already evaded one this year...

How could they tell you were missing the egr? I know they don't know every car, and not every car has an egr...what stops you from saying the car doesnt have it? Or could they see the blockoff plates?

Did they go through your tune files on the laptop?

You said you had no EGR, so did you end up loosing your plates?

How did you get out of the license plate one?

The guy from the MOE was a licensed mechanic. On the driver side fender well of the car there is a sticker which says what the vehicle is (should be) equipped with. Something like: SFI/EGR/AIR/HO2S and a couple others. There is also a diagram showing where the EGR should be. Clearly, it wasn't there. He didn't notice the block-offs.

They didn't go through the files. They really wouldn't have seen anything interesting though. I was not logging vehicle speed, which is really the only thing that they could potentially give me a ticket for.

If I'm pulled over again and it's not fixed, I will lose them (apparently).

I'll send you a PM with how I got out, never know who watches these boards...

I was thinking that maybe if they went through the hp tuner files, they may see if you intentionally turned off certain emissions equiptment. For instance, you can turn off the EGR and still have it intact if you know what I mean...

And, I never knew we had stickers that said what emissions equiptment we had on the car...What would happen if you were to remove all the stickers that said anything about emissions?

Thanks for the PM!

Thankfully they didn't. There are definitely some things that I wouldn't want them to see. I've thought about doing something to the sticker. Keep in mind that 2001+ cars don't have EGR...

Here is what it looks like:

http://n.b5z.net/i/u/10012033/i/98labelfinal.JPG

I'll send you a PM with how I got out, never know who watches these boards...

I was thinking that maybe if they went through the hp tuner files, they may see if you intentionally turned off certain emissions equiptment. For instance, you can turn off the EGR and still have it intact if you know what I mean...

And, I never knew we had stickers that said what emissions equiptment we had on the car...What would happen if you were to remove all the stickers that said anything about emissions?

Do you have headers and a catted y-pipe? Did they get under the car to see if you had cats to?

Do you have headers and a catted y-pipe? Did they get under the car to see if you had cats to?


Long Tube headers, dual catted Y. No post-cat O2 sensors though.

They looked under the car long enough to see that there were cats.

The guy in front of me in a Civic did not have a cat, although he welded the heat shield from his previous cat onto his exhaust. That worked for him.

Ballz. Sorry to hear man.... shite like this pisses me off its not about the environment its only about the $$$$$$$

Go do a sniffer test on a jumbo jet and fine them... Where the emissions at there? Not to mention directly depositing the gack waaaaaay closer to the atmosphere.

This turd you suffered is total bull shit tax grabbing lets fuck with people who have too much money nonsense

WTF, I thought this was only in TO???

Go do a sniffer test on a jumbo jet and fine them... Where the emissions at there? Not to mention directly depositing the gack waaaaaay closer to the atmosphere.

So true....

Honestly, it sucks what happened to you big time. However, living in Canada and knowing very well that they go after these types of things, why bother to take your EGR off man?

Realisticaly speaking, how much whp did you gain by removing your EGR or any other gains for that matter? You could have taken that $365 dollars you got charged with and got a used LS6 intake manifold, gained some hp AND stayed legit :D

All im saying is that its a loosing battle. Theres no way to fight this up here.

And this is why my system is complete... shit not too far from where I live too, I'm just up the street past baseline from the Tim's spot...

Honestly, it sucks what happened to you big time. However, living in Canada and knowing very well that they go after these types of things, why bother to take your EGR off man?

Realisticaly speaking, how much whp did you gain by removing your EGR or any other gains for that matter? You could have taken that $365 dollars you got charged with and got a used LS6 intake manifold, gained some hp AND stayed legit :D

All im saying is that its a loosing battle. Theres no way to fight this up here.

I didn't want to cut an EGR hole in my FAST 92, it looks cleaner, and it doesn't fit with my catch can. I never even thought about this happening, so it wasn't a big issue.

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/HC%20Install/DSC_0488.jpg

seems like the government needs money.

That is the suck. But Merivale Rd is a big ricer hangout area. Wonder if they are trolling near Hazeldean Mall on Tuesday nights, or Place D'Orleans on Wednesday nights?

But, it is this reason I forced Kooks to make me the correct emissions header for my 2000. Took an extra 2 months to get them installed, but I won't have to worry about crap like this.

Your engine looks real nice though. :D

I've heard they were near some other car shows. It really wouldn't surprise me if they did Kanata or Orleans.

I really wish I had Kooks.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm still not sure how I'm going to run a catch can and EGR...

Have I ever met you before?

That is the suck. But Merivale Rd is a big ricer hangout area. Wonder if they are trolling near Hazeldean Mall on Tuesday nights, or Place D'Orleans on Wednesday nights?

But, it is this reason I forced Kooks to make me the correct emissions header for my 2000. Took an extra 2 months to get them installed, but I won't have to worry about crap like this.

Your engine looks real nice though. :D

I've heard they were near some other car shows. It really wouldn't surprise me if they did Kanata or Orleans.

I really wish I had Kooks.

Thanks for the compliment. I'm still not sure how I'm going to run a catch can and EGR...

Have I ever met you before?

The Kooks seem well constructed, and they fit quite nicely. However, their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. It took a week for them to realize they had sent me the wrong pass side header, and then another 4-5 weeks before I got the correct one sent. PITA! But, they're on, sound great, and in the end, I'm happy.

I don't think we've met before. You may have seen my car around town....blue Z28, license plate same as my username. I haven't been to any of the "cruise nights" in a couple years - having little ones around can do that. ;)

Get AHR headers with EGR.

Get AHR headers with EGR.

Me?

I already have emissions compliant headers.

Just put the EGR back... better safe than sorry. Sure it looks great, but fine's are a pain in the ass. Also AHR's look SWEET and won't scrape...

Just put the EGR back... better safe than sorry. Sure it looks great, but fine's are a pain in the ass. Also AHR's look SWEET and won't scrape...

I'm in the process of doing it. I seem to have misplaced all of my bolts. I have no idea what I'm going to do for the catch can either...

Move west and screw the Ontario government!
:)

Just put the EGR back... better safe than sorry. Sure it looks great, but fine's are a pain in the ass. Also AHR's look SWEET and won't scrape...

hey man, do you have pics of how your car looks like from the bottom(header clearence) i got American racing too and i feel the rubbing on something when im taking off sometimes, and they sag pretty low .. and i have went to about 4 diff shops and they all say thats how they are made.. if your in ottawa do you know where i can take it..? thanks man

I can say my Kooks don't hang low or sag at all. The Loudmouth muffler is pretty low though. But if you're in Ottawa, the only place to go is Hinton Automotive. They're in Stittsville, but they do great work. Verne and his guys are top-notch. They do a lot of performance work too, rebuilds and the like. Their number is 613-831-7918.

hey man, do you have pics of how your car looks like from the bottom(header clearence) i got American racing too and i feel the rubbing on something when im taking off sometimes, and they sag pretty low .. and i have went to about 4 diff shops and they all say thats how they are made.. if your in ottawa do you know where i can take it..? thanks man

Here are ARH 1 3/4" on my Camaro. Hope this helps.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r278/Buggy_Cool/Camaro021.jpg

Listen guy's i am in oshawa and just got nabbed on my way to work this morning, they took my plates and threatend to seize and impound my car. Any ways whats next, i have no plates and a big fine, how do i get my plates back and beat this junk in court. heres my email incase im slow in response shawnfernandez@hotmail.com:barf:

Listen guy's i am in oshawa and just got nabbed on my way to work this morning, they took my plates and threatend to seize and impound my car. Any ways whats next, i have no plates and a big fine, how do i get my plates back and beat this junk in court. heres my email incase im slow in response shawnfernandez@hotmail.com:barf:


Can you elaborate as to what happened?!

What happens now that they have your plates? Can you simply buy new ones? Or does your vehicle have to pass a drive clean test?

What modifications did you have?

Spd-Kilz

What's the issue with your catch can? Is it that you have it installed where the EGR valve goes and you need a different physical spot to locate it?

Also, do your headers have the EGR hook-up with block-off plates?

Sucks Adam.....maybe they just didn't notice your PHK sticker. ;)

He ditched the EGR completely... Not a safe thing to do when smog nazis are in force...

Can you elaborate as to what happened?!

What happens now that they have your plates? Can you simply buy new ones? Or does your vehicle have to pass a drive clean test?

What modifications did you have?

car
1977 Chevy Camaro - in ontario classic cars are not required for Emission testing,

Motor 350 - over 50 ect.
No Cats, No EGR, Improper Oil/Air Filter Carcoal Canister. @ $365 each
they took my plates, and now im left standing without my ride, and as of right now no other car until next month.

It looks like his headers have the AIR and EGR hookups though -- I think I see block off plates so he can reinstall it.

The problem is that he has to drill a hole in that nice FAST!

SPD-KILZ -- I mounted my catch can on the other side of the engine because of the EGR valve --attached it to the RAD support in front of the ABS block. Looks like you have room for that and just need a bit more 3/8" hose.

:ripped: Basicly the MTE/MTO are tageting nice cars, and ruining peoples days.
i read above that someone had this happen and knew of something to get around this issuse. like i said i have no car, and i dont want to take transit. beside my work is 30km away, everyday. sooner the better!

Spd-Kilz

What's the issue with your catch can? Is it that you have it installed where the EGR valve goes and you need a different physical spot to locate it?

Also, do your headers have the EGR hook-up with block-off plates?

That is exactly my issue with the can. And yes, those are my headers. The MOE guy didn't see the block-offs though.


It looks like his headers have the AIR and EGR hookups though -- I think I see block off plates so he can reinstall it.

The problem is that he has to drill a hole in that nice FAST!

SPD-KILZ -- I mounted my catch can on the other side of the engine because of the EGR valve --attached it to the RAD support in front of the ABS block. Looks like you have room for that and just need a bit more 3/8" hose.

The EGR is half in right now. I've got to find a screw to put it into the intake though.

Can you please post pictures of your catch can mounting location? Also, who makes your can?

car
1977 Chevy Camaro - in ontario classic cars are not required for Emission testing,

Motor 350 - over 50 ect.
No Cats, No EGR, Improper Oil/Air Filter Carcoal Canister. @ $365 each
they took my plates, and now im left standing without my ride, and as of right now no other car until next month.

Holy damn!!!! I got off lucky!

I feel so bad for you! Who has possession of your car?

Spd-Kilz

I don't have a camera handy but will try to get a shot on the weekend or at least tell you where I mounted the holder.

I've got the AMW Can shown here

http://www.accmachtech.com/catchcans.asp

Spd-Kilz

I don't have a camera handy but will try to get a shot on the weekend or at least tell you where I mounted the holder.

I've got the AMW Can shown here

http://www.accmachtech.com/catchcans.asp

If you could take some pictures, I'd greatly appreciate it!

While a car may not have to go in for emissions testing, if the year model of that car HAD emissions components, then you can still get fined for the removal of those components. Not exactly something you can get off on easily.

I'm pretty sure you could just make it look like you have the EGR attached to the manifold... without drilling a hole in the manifold.

I've never heard of this kind of stuff happening in Alberta...

car
1977 Chevy Camaro - in ontario classic cars are not required for Emission testing,

Motor 350 - over 50 ect.
No Cats, No EGR, Improper Oil/Air Filter Carcoal Canister. @ $365 each
they took my plates, and now im left standing without my ride, and as of right now no other car until next month.

I'd pretty certain that 1977 cars didn't have EGR systems. You're clear of the Drive Clean requirements being older than 20 years, but they may be using some deep buried law subsection to nail people without smog controls......no cats would be easy to remedy, put in some hi-flows with a cutout. No EGR would be tough, and if it's the original engine (though I'm guessing it isn't), that would be easy to get tossed in court. If it didn't come with it back then, you shouldn't need it now. Improper oil/air filter? WTF is that? They could bust me for improper oil filter since I use the long K&N filter......

Welcome to the new Ontario police state folks.

I'm pretty sure you could just make it look like you have the EGR attached to the manifold... without drilling a hole in the manifold.

I've never heard of this kind of stuff happening in Alberta...

Well, we in Ontario are more enlightened to the plight of Mother Earth than you dirty Albertans with your oil sands and drilling. :eyes:

Personally, I think Alberta kicks Ontario's ass. But, this is what happens when you vote an absolute power-hungry liar into office - TWICE!

Did they go through your tune files on the laptop?



What gives those assholes the right to go through whats on the laptop? The laptop is inside the car. Would they not need a search warrant since it is inside the vehicle?

They have their purpose to pull over cars and look for smog equipment, thats fine. I dont see any right to search whats inside the car and to go through someones personal laptop.

car
1977 Chevy Camaro - in ontario classic cars are not required for Emission testing,

Motor 350 - over 50 ect.
No Cats, No EGR, Improper Oil/Air Filter Carcoal Canister. @ $365 each
they took my plates, and now im left standing without my ride, and as of right now no other car until next month.

Is the car at home?

To get your plates back or to get new ones you need to show some invoices/bills etc showing you have had the items fixed/installed on your car.

I got the catch can placement worked out this afternoon. It (thankfully) required no drilling, and looks relatively clean. I took the liberty to also put in some before/after photos of the EGR :(

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/DSC_0068.jpg

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/DSC_0073.jpg

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/DSC_0056.jpg

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/DSC_0059.jpg

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/DSC_0058.jpg

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/SVT_BAIT/DSC_0075.jpg

I'd pretty certain that 1977 cars didn't have EGR systems. You're clear of the Drive Clean requirements being older than 20 years, but they may be using some deep buried law subsection to nail people without smog controls......no cats would be easy to remedy, put in some hi-flows with a cutout. No EGR would be tough, and if it's the original engine (though I'm guessing it isn't), that would be easy to get tossed in court. If it didn't come with it back then, you shouldn't need it now. Improper oil/air filter? WTF is that? They could bust me for improper oil filter since I use the long K&N filter......

Welcome to the new Ontario police state folks.
My '75 had an EGR. It was after 2000 before GM was able to eliminate the EGR on their trucks.

This is how the law is written:

EMISSION CONTROL EQUIPMENT FOR KIT CARS, REBUILT CARS AND HOT RODS
4. (1) A kit car or a rebuilt car that receives its first permit under the Highway Traffic Act on or after January 1, 1999, shall include, as part of a system to prevent or lessen the emission of contaminants, all of the original pollution control systems and components, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the motor of the rebuilt car or kit car by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (1); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.
(2) A hot rod that receives a motor replacement on or after January 1, 1999, shall receive a motor designed to meet emission standards at least as stringent as those achieved by the original motor with all its original emission control equipment attached and functioning, and the replacement motor shall have the original catalytic converter and all the original emission control equipment, or equivalent replacements, included or usually included with the replacement motor by the manufacturer of the motor. O. Reg. 361/98, s. 4 (2); O. Reg. 86/99, s. 3.

If it was built with it, it has to have it whether the car is exempt from e-testing or not UNLESS you can prove the engine is a newer engine and did not come with the emission equipment in question. Which means a 6.2 from a truck with all it's emission equipment intact (sans EGR) would be a perfectly legal swap in my '77 Vega. Also consider that there are a lot of head and cam swaps out there that still pass an e-test with the rest of the emissions equipment still present.

Ken

I checked with my sister (traffic cop in TO) on this and it comes down to if your car came with emissions equipment from the factory, then it should have all of it there. The thing is, unless there is a sticker there saying it, they can't determine what equipment is supposed to be there and its not like they keep a book on them with such info. To get around this the officer is allowed to basically have a "belief" that the car is unfit for the road and can pull your plates on the spot regardless of whether it should or should not have x emissions device.

So to summarize. If you have no sticker for emissions, that is a ticket and a fine. If you have a sticker and it is missing x component, then for each x component missing for emissions it is a fine. Finally at the officers discretion, if it is unfit for the road, the plates can simply be pulled and the onus comes down to the driver to prove that they have the necessary equipment to the prosecutor in order to have the charges withdrawn.

It will make no difference if your car can pass or not or if it has a newer engine without components or Your only saving grace on the spot with a cop is to not get on their bad side and convince them you are complying with the law.

Anything else you want cleared up with what a cop can do? She does this shit on a regular basis...

Very Helpful! Thanks Rovic!

I checked with my sister (traffic cop in TO) on this and it comes down to if your car came with emissions equipment from the factory, then it should have all of it there. The thing is, unless there is a sticker there saying it, they can't determine what equipment is supposed to be there and its not like they keep a book on them with such info. To get around this the officer is allowed to basically have a "belief" that the car is unfit for the road and can pull your plates on the spot regardless of whether it should or should not have x emissions device.

So to summarize. If you have no sticker for emissions, that is a ticket and a fine. If you have a sticker and it is missing x component, then for each x component missing for emissions it is a fine. Finally at the officers discretion, if it is unfit for the road, the plates can simply be pulled and the onus comes down to the driver to prove that they have the necessary equipment to the prosecutor in order to have the charges withdrawn.

It will make no difference if your car can pass or not or if it has a newer engine without components or Your only saving grace on the spot with a cop is to not get on their bad side and convince them you are complying with the law.

Anything else you want cleared up with what a cop can do? She does this shit on a regular basis...

Where can you get a sticker from a later LS1 without EGR? Might be worth it for us to swap those on...

Where can you get a sticker from a later LS1 without EGR? Might be worth it for us to swap those on...

I thought of this, but I'm not sure if they have my vehicle on record now.

If they do, then they'll see I got an EGR ticket last time, then compare it to the sticker saying the vehicle doesn't require it.

Not sure that would go down too well...?

swap the sticker...fight the ticket...snap a picture of the sticker on the car...go to court and be like...there is no egr because I never required one...tell them to come out and look at the sticker on the car if they want...could work?
cops make mistakes to...

model year is posted on the sticker for the emissions, and referenced to your ownership and insurance, you'd find yourself in even more trouble if caught.

In that case, don't touch that sticker...I guess your pretty much left with if you really need the emissions stuff off, just keep it turned off with hp tuners, but still in place. I don't believe they have a way to test if your egr is actually operational or not, or atleast I don't believe they would be able to tell that you turned it off through tunning....unless they go through the laptop...

someone needs to make a custom sticker :)!

northern ontario is great, no emissions testing up here.