Road Racing - Suspension Upgrade Ideas

Hi I wand to upgrade my suspension 02 Firebird for mild road racing yet streetable, I would alos like to keep it as close to stock height as the roads in Pa are not all that great. I have about $2k to spend, i would prefer to spend less , looking for options, Car is prettymuch stock , fullexhaust, and intake , and chip. Thanks for any ideas.!:secret2:

I also have 5 spoke 18" C5 wheels with Pilot GT tires on it

stranoparts.com

Happy to help... I'm also in PA (western) and am very aware of the roads. :) If you wanted to come by (not sure where you are) I'd be happy to take you for a ride in my cars for a comparison and to show you how well a really killer handling car can work. My Camaro is setup for autox work, nothing is different except for the tires from the way I compete in it--and you'd see it's actually in a lot of ways more comfortable than stock. Firm to be sure, but way, way less harsh.

If you don't want to lower the car, that's fine too. A set of great shocks and swaybars alone will work wonders (hell, the shocks themselves do). All a matter of degrees and how far you want to go. :)

Thanks I see your located in Brookville, I am currentaly in School in Erie and Live near New Stanton, so i could swing by on a trip back and forth , or possibly even make a special trip if i get bored. What are your hours?

You'd want to call me first because I can be out of town racing... also sometimes I have the car apart to work on things.

I'm here most of the time 11-7 during the week, never around weekends usually...

Ok i will give ya a ring, your only like 25min out of the way home for me so its no big deal ... Any idea cost range, of me installing it myself?... Thanks alot

No cost ideas really until we hash out what you want parts wise. :)

if i were to start over(based on my own personal experience):

-shocks
-swaybars (35/21)
-panhard bar

those would be my 3 first mods, in that order. for shocks, since you have the money just go koni's. had i not gotten my bilstein revalves for literally nothing, that's the route i would have gone.

how would you compare the stock ws6 sway bars to the strano sway bars?

how would you compare the stock ws6 sway bars to the strano sway bars?

I would say that they are a nice/noticeable upgrade. I went from the stock 32mm (SS and WS6) to Sam's 35mm bar. It was not dramatic but definitely an improvement. In addition to the bars, I have Bilstien HDs, SFCs, and lower control arms. Overall it is much better than stock and does well on the track and even HPDE instructors have complemented it.

i went from 32/19 to 35/21 and i would probably describe it as dramatic. maybe because it was one of the last things i did, but it was definitely one of the biggest overall improvements in ride quality and reduced body roll.

My bars are similarly, but not exactly the same balanced as a 32/19 setup that is stock on a WS6... but about 30% stiffer (actually a little more in the rear). The car gets a lot more crisp, rolls less, and changes directions faster.

I'm sort of in the same boat as the original poster here. :) I'm don't mean to hijack the thread but I've got a similar budget -- though maybe a few thousand more and I've been thinking of calling you as well Sam.

Winter is on it's way and I'd like to plan out what I'm going to pick up for the car in the offseason.

Overall, I'm curious as to how well we can make our F-Bodies actually handle...

Would they ever get as good as to be comparible to a C6 Z06 or is that just sheer lunacy? (Koni's, bars, your springs, tires etc...)

i messed around with a c6 z06 one night on some very empty back roads. couldn't outrun him but i kept up for a while. he couldn't shift for his life and probably wasn't pushing it very hard but he was definitely irritated that i was able to stay with him as well as i did.

here's a few past threads on it:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/999629-strano-koni-compared-corvette.html

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/53239-what-needed-my-firehawk-handle-well-zo6.html

go with a nice suspension setup, ditch a few hundred pounds, learn to drive, and get some reeeeally sticky tires. could probably take a stock one with an average driver.

Would they ever get as good as to be comparable to a C6 Z06 or is that just sheer lunacy? (Koni's, bars, your springs, tires etc...)

Honestly... it is sheer lunacy.

I have 2 C6 Z06s that run in the same club. They are unbelievably fast. They are lighter, have better brakes, better suspension, and way more power. If you put a 600 hp engine in, mega dollar brakes, and completely gutted your car you might get close (to a stock Z06 w good tires). But you definitely wouldn't have a fun street car anymore.

All that said f-bodies are competent track cars. The mods listed in this thread will gain you big improvements. I'll also note the obligatory track time. These cars are not that easy to drive. In most cases the driver's experience level will be the limiting factor. A driver' school, track time, and simple mods will get you a fast f-body at the track. But C6 (and even C5) Z06s are in a higher class for a reason.

I've seen a local V6 f-body (base stripper model w/ updated suspension and tires) completely trash the times of those posted by the big corvette cousins. It usually comes down to a competent driver and seat time.

I'd say shocks, swaybars (biggest improvement ever) and freshen up the bushings on your suspension. Some people don't recommend poly bushings on stuff like the LCA's because they are known to bind.

I've seen a local V6 f-body (base stripper model w/ updated suspension and tires) completely trash the times of those posted by the big corvette cousins. It usually comes down to a competent driver and seat time.

I'd say shocks, swaybars (biggest improvement ever) and freshen up the bushings on your suspension. Some people don't recommend poly bushings on stuff like the LCA's because they are known to bind.

:bs::eyes:
So I guess we should swap our LS1 f-bodies for 6 cylinder f-bodies. Then we could run with the Z06s!

I bet the 2.8l 3rd gens are the way to go!

Give me a break!!

Yeah, some great driver w a v6 f-body could conceivably beat a horrible tool of a driver in a vette. But this is by no means a fair comparison. The more I think about the post, the angrier I get...

The whole question is a philosophical one, like whether a tree falling without anyone to hear it actually makes a sound.

Can an f-body handles phenominally? Yes. Can it be better than a stock Corvette? Yes. You can play the if/then game until the cows come home, but what does it get you? I don't know many folks who will go buy a Corvette instead of upgrading an f-body based on whether one can "handle" as well---they are completely different cars, differ suspension, different chassis, different prices, etc....

I can embarass most anything through a corner with a pony-car, even if I'm driving both cars, but of course level of prep has something to do with that. And more to the the point a big part of handling to me is confidence and sorry, but most stock Corvettes aren't confidence inspiring at the limit. Hell, read I think Car & Driver's article on the Grand Sport. It's fast, but also very edgy and not confidence inspiring. Good news is we can easily fix that (primarily a shock valving issue).

i lowered mine a bit, front strut tower, added front/ rear sway bars, weld in sub frame connectors, and am waiting for new bfg's like i had before..and mine handles very nice

:bs::eyes:
So I guess we should swap our LS1 f-bodies for 6 cylinder f-bodies. Then we could run with the Z06s!

I bet the 2.8l 3rd gens are the way to go!

Give me a break!!

Yeah, some great driver w a v6 f-body could conceivably beat a horrible tool of a driver in a vette. But this is by no means a fair comparison. The more I think about the post, the angrier I get...

The other day, at shenendoah, I saw a civic pass 2 Zo6's, 1 C5 and 1 C6. In multiple sessions. These weren't the greatest drivers in the world, but they weren't bad.

Alot has to do w/ driver, power to weight, setup, etc.

The other day, at shenendoah, I saw a civic pass 2 Zo6's, 1 C5 and 1 C6. In multiple sessions. These weren't the greatest drivers in the world, but they weren't bad.

Alot has to do w/ driver, power to weight, setup, etc.

What is your point?

I could probably walk up behind Mike Tyson, hit him over the head with a 2x4, and knock him out. Then I could go around telling everyone about the time I knocked out Mike Tyson... Does that make a better boxer or tougher than Mike Tyson?

The question is can a f-body handle like a Z06. No. Not stock for stock or mod for mod. I love my Z28 to, but, lets start living in reality.

Stories of modded cars with good drivers passing old guys or poor drivers in stock Z06s at HPDEs does not make a civic nor a V-6 f-body a superior handling car!

Yes, a modded car on race tires with a good driver can pass an inexperienced driver in a stock car with street tires. This, however, is hardly a apple to apple comparison. Put a set of Hoosiers on an even stock Z06 (especially a C6 Z06) with a competent driver and no civic or V-6 f-body will pass it on an open track I assure you.:judge:

i messed around with a c6 z06 one night on some very empty back roads. couldn't outrun him but i kept up for a while. he couldn't shift for his life and probably wasn't pushing it very hard but he was definitely irritated that i was able to stay with him as well as i did.

here's a few past threads on it:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/999629-strano-koni-compared-corvette.html

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/53239-what-needed-my-firehawk-handle-well-zo6.html

go with a nice suspension setup, ditch a few hundred pounds, learn to drive, and get some reeeeally sticky tires. could probably take a stock one with an average driver.

Great links. Thanks for the reply man!!

The whole question is a philosophical one, like whether a tree falling without anyone to hear it actually makes a sound.

Can an f-body handles phenominally? Yes. Can it be better than a stock Corvette? Yes. You can play the if/then game until the cows come home, but what does it get you? I don't know many folks who will go buy a Corvette instead of upgrading an f-body based on whether one can "handle" as well---they are completely different cars, differ suspension, different chassis, different prices, etc....

I can embarass most anything through a corner with a pony-car, even if I'm driving both cars, but of course level of prep has something to do with that. And more to the the point a big part of handling to me is confidence and sorry, but most stock Corvettes aren't confidence inspiring at the limit. Hell, read I think Car & Driver's article on the Grand Sport. It's fast, but also very edgy and not confidence inspiring. Good news is we can easily fix that (primarily a shock valving issue).

Well put. I think I should have phrased what I was asking a little better.

Essentially I was approaching things from a platform angle, just doing a terrible job. I love my WS6. I think it looks fantastic compared to even a new Z06. Fact is, the Z06 platform from the get-go is flat out better.

What I'm trying to figure out for myself is if the F-Body platform will give me the handling characteristics to satisfy my corner carving desires, or if I should save the cash and start with a Corvette platform to meet my goals.

What are my goals?

It's a crapshoot because I've never been in a Strano prep F-Body. :) I have been in a C5 Z06 absolutely flying around and I've been in a 1997 Camaro SS with a stage 2 suspension, sticky tires and a pretty peppy autocross driver behind the wheel. Both impressed me.

The more I chew on this one the more I realize I'm just going to order some proven parts from you, stick them on the WS6 and get on with it. At the end of that road, if I'm still not satisfied, then I'll look at other options.

I have a feeling I will more than happy.

...
What I'm trying to figure out for myself is if the F-Body platform will give me the handling characteristics to satisfy my corner carving desires, or if I should save the cash and start with a Corvette platform to meet my goals.
...
The more I chew on this one the more I realize I'm just going to order some proven parts from you, stick them on the WS6 and get on with it. At the end of that road, if I'm still not satisfied, then I'll look at other options.

I have a feeling I will more than happy.

Don't get me wrong. I am in no way trying to discourage anyone from road racing an F-body. They are very competent and a ton (nearly 2 actually) of fun. The 4th gen is a great car, and not a bad handling platform. With the right parts it gains leaps and bounds in the car control department.

I'm just enforcing the point that the Z06 is better platform from the start, and therefore an unfair or unrealistic comparison.

:bs::eyes:
So I guess we should swap our LS1 f-bodies for 6 cylinder f-bodies. Then we could run with the Z06s!

I bet the 2.8l 3rd gens are the way to go!

Give me a break!!

Yeah, some great driver w a v6 f-body could conceivably beat a horrible tool of a driver in a vette. But this is by no means a fair comparison. The more I think about the post, the angrier I get...

To tell you the truth there were others out there that were pretty skilled at auto-x. You don't need to get your panties in a bunch. You can throw your BS flag up all you want.

I in no way, shape or form said to just all go to V6's. I'm not a V6 nutswinger either. I just said it comes down to a competent driver and seat time.

It is plain as day knowledge that the Corvette is a better platform to start from. I've heard of a few guys dropping their modded F-body and going for a C5 or C6 and taking up where they left off. It is much more of a purpose built car for that niche.

To tell you the truth there were others out there that were pretty skilled at auto-x. You don't need to get your panties in a bunch. You can throw your BS flag up all you want.

I in no way, shape or form said to just all go to V6's. I'm not a V6 nutswinger either. I just said it comes down to a competent driver and seat time.

It is plain as day knowledge that the Corvette is a better platform to start from. I've heard of a few guys dropping their modded F-body and going for a C5 or C6 and taking up where they left off. It is much more of a purpose built car for that niche.

Gotta admit my "panties" were kind of in a bunch. I get annoyed when people make unfair comparisons.

You are right, though, a driver can make all the difference.

To that end I witnessed a new ZR1 run a mid 14 second quarter. My 02 Z28 set up for road racing and w stock LS1 was running 13.4s at 108 (horrible 2.2-2.4 60 fts). I was embarrassed for that guy! I wish I could have got lined up against him. I would have loved to had a story of smoking a new ZR1 in my Z28. That was drag racing, and the guy clearly could not muster the skill to get down the track quickly. Imagine how bad he would have looked on a road course!

Anyway, I just seem to get ryalled up when people make comparisons that are really about drivers, when the question was about cars.

Yeah, it's really hard to hide when you're at a driving performance event and the times are there for everybody to see. Just glad the ZR1 owner didn't stuff it into the wall.

I love the David and Goliath battles between different class cars. It makes races that much more exciting, and it can be a very rewarding experience for the drivers.

I'd love it if we had a road course out here. I know exactly where I'd spend my free time :)

What is your point?




My point is this:

Go to a NASA Thunder race and watch a few civics pass alot of V8's. These are CMC, AI, AIX, and whatever the corvette class is called (ST1, 2???) The fastest civics aren't passing the fastest cars in the group, but these people all have their competition licenses, and a good portion are being passed by little buzz bombs that probably weigh 1500 lbs w/ driver, if that.

In the time trial competition, a TTC civic SI was faster than EVERY TTB and all but one TTA car. He was even faster than 1/2 of the TTS field.

here's the link:
http://www.get-fast.net/temp/sunday_final_time_trials_july09_vir.pdf

This was at VIR, a horsepower track.

So, what was it that made the Civic faster than all but 1 higher classed driver??? Is he that great of a driver he can pass all of these high HP cars? Is his car set up better than most of the other cars? Is his power to weight better than all these cars? Maybe it's a combination of things.

I hope that I was able to clarify things for you...

Well put. I think I should have phrased what I was asking a little better.

Essentially I was approaching things from a platform angle, just doing a terrible job. I love my WS6. I think it looks fantastic compared to even a new Z06. Fact is, the Z06 platform from the get-go is flat out better.

What I'm trying to figure out for myself is if the F-Body platform will give me the handling characteristics to satisfy my corner carving desires, or if I should save the cash and start with a Corvette platform to meet my goals.

What are my goals?

It's a crapshoot because I've never been in a Strano prep F-Body. :) I have been in a C5 Z06 absolutely flying around and I've been in a 1997 Camaro SS with a stage 2 suspension, sticky tires and a pretty peppy autocross driver behind the wheel. Both impressed me.

The more I chew on this one the more I realize I'm just going to order some proven parts from you, stick them on the WS6 and get on with it. At the end of that road, if I'm still not satisfied, then I'll look at other options.

I have a feeling I will more than happy.

I think you've got the idea. These cars do handle well, especially with some upgrades. Do other cars handle better? Sure. I still have a blast at the track with my SS. Many people that don't know these cars are impressed how well mine does. I will say that our cars like higher speed tracks with big sweeping corners though. I will have to let cars pass me at one track that I simple out-power at another track. Just get out there and have some fun.

My point is this:

Go to a NASA Thunder race and watch a few civics pass alot of V8's. These are CMC, AI, AIX, and whatever the corvette class is called (ST1, 2???) The fastest civics aren't passing the fastest cars in the group, but these people all have their competition licenses, and a good portion are being passed by little buzz bombs that probably weigh 1500 lbs w/ driver, if that.

In the time trial competition, a TTC civic SI was faster than EVERY TTB and all but one TTA car. He was even faster than 1/2 of the TTS field.

here's the link:
http://www.get-fast.net/temp/sunday_final_time_trials_july09_vir.pdf

This was at VIR, a horsepower track.

So, what was it that made the Civic faster than all but 1 higher classed driver??? Is he that great of a driver he can pass all of these high HP cars? Is his car set up better than most of the other cars? Is his power to weight better than all these cars? Maybe it's a combination of things.

I hope that I was able to clarify things for you...

OK....

My point, in questioning your point, is that this tread is asking if a F-body can handle like a Z06. It is a question of mechanical ability of the chassis. Not if you put a great driver in car A, can it beat car B.

The better driver issue is not the point of the thread. I'm sure his question is would he (or any same driver) be faster in a Z06, or F-body. Driver skill aside (as it doesn't change the actual cars ability to "handle") the Z06 is a better handling car, period.

OK....

My point, in questioning your point, is that this tread is asking if a F-body can handle like a Z06. It is a question of mechanical ability of the chassis. Not if you put a great driver in car A, can it beat car B.

The better driver issue is not the point of the thread. I'm sure his question is would he (or any same driver) be faster in a Z06, or F-body. Driver skill aside (as it doesn't change the actual cars ability to "handle") the Z06 is a better handling car, period.

I wouldn't say period.... Because one can screw up a Corvette, I've seen it done.

Is a stock Z06 better than a stock f-body? Ahhhh, yeah. Is a stock Z06 better than a well-prepped f-body? Not necessarily. Is a prepped Z06 better than a prepped f-body? Probably, but maybe not as much as one would think.

Look the Corvette is better balanced and lighter. Not bad things. But they are often run too low, with lousy shocks, way too big a rear swaybar, and by people who blindly think that it's a Corvette it must be better. And honestly, with track days all you can do is look at who it running over who in the corners, because overall lap time has so much to do with power to weight. Even a dog handling car can run pretty fast if you can out engine a better handling car.

Im not going to Argue what car is better, But I would just like to mention that I spend a good couple days talking with and bouncing Ideas off sam back in 05 over the phone (I was deployed overseas soo seeing him in person wasnt much of an option) and with his advice and help I mirrored my gen 4 camaro off his personal setup, It handles like a dream, I have driven it for over 8 hour on road trips and put it through the corners in Auto-x events, If I ever wanted to change the set-up or look at going with a Corvette, Sam would be the first person I would give a call to when looking to replace the stock set-up.

I would just worry about what i can do with the car that i have. one of my first Auto-x events i watched a new C-6 just kill everything on the track that same day one of the worst running cars was also a Stock C-6. the Driver really make the car in the end.

1. 4/4 Koni's, 2. A set of Sam's sway bars. 3. adjustable PHB, A pair of 1LE rear control arms. Don't lower it! just creates other problems with roll center and bump steer and control arm angles.