Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - 402 with itb's headed for the engine dyno-updated

this is a street 402 i built for a friend of mine-it should be a pretty bad piece,it's heading for the engine dyno this week.here is a rundown.i'm shooting for 700hp on pump gas-if it doesn't make it first time,i'll change some things and try it again:devil:

iron block 4.005 bore
callies compstar crank and rods
custom je pistons coated on crowns and skirts(alot of compression)
trickflow 235's with a little hand work
big hyd roller
lunati link bar lifters
harrop itb's
meziere electric wp
melling hv oil pump
ati balancer

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures10-23-09018.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures10-23-09019.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures10-23-09020.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures10-23-09021.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures10-23-09022.jpg

Subscribed !!!!!!!!!! Can't wait to see the results

camshaft lsa?

I can't wait to see the result either Shawn.

Looks awesome Shawn!

That looks awesome! What is the target redline?

What application will this be used for? We need video for sure. Curious about the throttle response.

Very interesting Shawn. Is this a cable or DBW ITB?

Finally....one more example of what ITB's can do.....now maybe people will see how much more power the ITB's make then any other intakes available.

You should hit 700 hp. Good luck, nice build.

.

whats this going in? if you guys have problems finding filters theres a guy in here that had something that seemed to work and also there is a mesh screen version that i have on my harrop intake that works as well. however you'll have to chop off that silly plate from all the stacks.

in! :)

That looks awesome! What is the target redline?

What application will this be used for? We need video for sure. Curious about the throttle response.

redline is where ever it stops making power,application-street

Very interesting Shawn. Is this a cable or DBW ITB?

cable-going in an f body

whats this going in? if you guys have problems finding filters theres a guy in here that had something that seemed to work and also there is a mesh screen version that i have on my harrop intake that works as well. however you'll have to chop off that silly plate from all the stacks.

we are planning on modifying the stacks and making an air box for it.

whats this going in? if you guys have problems finding filters theres a guy in here that had something that seemed to work and also there is a mesh screen version that i have on my harrop intake that works as well. however you'll have to chop off that silly plate from all the stacks.

tell us about your engine?

Dyno numbers?


.

Damn!! That sure is a sexy beast! Can't wait to see the results.

Chris just sent some pics of his. Looks awesome! Should make some big #'s.

Looking very nice from the stand...and that engine must have some power.

I am curious to see how much will be lost with air filters and air boxes on when implanted in the car...

Waiting to read the results.
Christian

Good luck and keep us posted

You should do two dynos. One with the ITB and one with a FAST if you have one around!
Very intrested!
"700 hp" i am thinking at the crank?

"700 hp" i am thinking at the crank?


Yes, hence the thread title... ;)

more info on the intake??? who makes it and price?

it doesn't look like a Harrop

Cjad

more info on the intake??? who makes it and price?

it doesn't look like a Harrop

Cjad

i guess i lied about it then

damn Shawn, that motor looks sick with that intake on top. cant wait to see the results.

i guess i lied about it then

sorry at 4:43am some things get missed...didn't even see you say it lol.

Chad

tell us about your engine?

Dyno numbers?


.

i dont have final numbers on my car yet since it's a back burner project. however it's a 383 with a 24x/25x @.50 106lsa cam, lingenfelter heads, 11.5:1SCR and the harromp intake of course. so far with just basic tuning and very little timing (maybe a little over 10 deg) and it made 400hp at 5krpm. it's on e-85 too so once we get it ready for WOT pulls we're going to crank it up and spin it to 7krpm if not more. it's really up to the tuner because my theory is spin it till the curve starts going down.

heres some pics of my set up and some for referance for you guys to see what you're working with as far as space.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q140/rons00z/P4090007.jpg

then the rough cut after. it really frees up a ton of room. but i also dont have the facility to make a nice air box either
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q140/rons00z/P5040008.jpg

i dont have final numbers on my car yet since it's a back burner project. however it's a 383 with a 24x/25x @.50 106lsa cam, lingenfelter heads, 11.5:1SCR and the harromp intake of course. so far with just basic tuning and very little timing (maybe a little over 10 deg) and it made 400hp at 5krpm. it's on e-85 too so once we get it ready for WOT pulls we're going to crank it up and spin it to 7krpm if not more. it's really up to the tuner because my theory is spin it till the curve starts going down.

heres some pics of my set up and some for referance for you guys to see what you're working with as far as space.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q140/rons00z/P4090007.jpg

then the rough cut after. it really frees up a ton of room. but i also dont have the facility to make a nice air box either
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q140/rons00z/P5040008.jpg


Lookin' good Ron! :thumb:

Shawn, excited for them results sir!

Do either of you feel that getting rid of the "trays" that the trumpets are welded to will affect anything?

i dont. as long as the lip is still there it shouldnt be any diffrent than any other ITB that has the stacks seperated. i did it because it makes everything easier like removing the stack to replace injectors, coils packs, adjusting valvetrain, etc.

i dont. as long as the lip is still there it shouldnt be any diffrent than any other ITB that has the stacks seperated. i did it because it makes everything easier like removing the stack to replace injectors, coils packs, adjusting valvetrain, etc.

Looks like a pretty good rough cut. How are you going to attach a airbox to it now? I would certainly guarantee without the proper airbox its not going to make as much power as it could. Even though its a different setup, I tested running just an open throttlebody (without air tube/box attached) and I lost 16rwhp. I'm betting its going to be a similar deal with yours, leave a little bit of power on the table without the proper setup. I would think relocating the coils and building an airbox for both sides with a bridge to the middle would be a good idea for an airbox.

subscribing. very interested in the updates.

Forget the intake, those valve covers are PIMP!

Looks like a pretty good rough cut. How are you going to attach a airbox to it now? I would certainly guarantee without the proper airbox its not going to make as much power as it could. Even though its a different setup, I tested running just an open throttlebody (without air tube/box attached) and I lost 16rwhp. I'm betting its going to be a similar deal with yours, leave a little bit of power on the table without the proper setup. I would think relocating the coils and building an airbox for both sides with a bridge to the middle would be a good idea for an airbox.

i found a guy that makes a screen type filter system for it. it just snugly attaches it's self to the end. just from the baseline tuning with and with out the screen filters theres little to no differance in performance. maybe during WOT but we havnt got to that point yet.

the filter i'm using is very similer to this one
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/3894-64.JPG

i found a guy that makes a screen type filter system for it. it just snugly attaches it's self to the end. just from the baseline tuning with and with out the screen filters theres little to no differance in performance. maybe during WOT but we havnt got to that point yet.

the filter i'm using is very similer to this one
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/3894-64.JPG

Thats what I'm saying, without the proper airbox the air won't pick up good velocity before it enters the stacks. You won't notice a difference between those filters attached vs not. If you were to have a nice air box with a large volume of filtered air available to those ITB's then the velocity of the air entereing the stacks would increase. If I remember correctly, I've also seen a thread somewhere where someone lost a good amount of power on those Harrop intakes because they took the airbox they had for it off. Needless to say, after their test, they put the airboxes back on.

I look forward to seeing results out of this one.

Thats what I'm saying, without the proper airbox the air won't pick up good velocity before it enters the stacks. You won't notice a difference between those filters attached vs not. If you were to have a nice air box with a large volume of filtered air available to those ITB's then the velocity of the air entereing the stacks would increase. If I remember correctly, I've also seen a thread somewhere where someone lost a good amount of power on those Harrop intakes because they took the airbox they had for it off. Needless to say, after their test, they put the airboxes back on.

the airbox that came with the harrop intake flat out sucks. i dont see any reason on why you would want to add a plenum on a ITB setup other than it's easier to do a filter system. especially in a f-body where room is very very limited. if someone had a way to do it and make it work thats cool. me on the other hand want no part in that because it's just to much shit to deal with when i already dont have room with out a air box. the only way that intake will get a air box is if it turned into a twin turbo motor like that 69 camaro at sema last year motiv8or or whatever it's called.

the airbox that came with the harrop intake flat out sucks. i dont see any reason on why you would want to add a plenum on a ITB setup other than it's easier to do a filter system. especially in a f-body where room is very very limited. if someone had a way to do it and make it work thats cool. me on the other hand want no part in that because it's just to much shit to deal with when i already dont have room with out a air box. the only way that intake will get a air box is if it turned into a twin turbo motor like that 69 camaro at sema last year motiv8or or whatever it's called.

I understand where you're coming from, just pointing out an area that people have found cuts down a little bit on power. If you don't have the facility to make an airbox, fuck it. But its best to have an airbox, thats all i'm saying.

i guess i lied about it then


:lol:

Damn liars.........

:)

.

the airbox that came with the harrop intake flat out sucks. i dont see any reason on why you would want to add a plenum on a ITB setup other than it's easier to do a filter system. especially in a f-body where room is very very limited. if someone had a way to do it and make it work thats cool. me on the other hand want no part in that because it's just to much shit to deal with when i already dont have room with out a air box. the only way that intake will get a air box is if it turned into a twin turbo motor like that 69 camaro at sema last year motiv8or or whatever it's called.

You could relocate the coils and build a long plenum for each side that sits on top of the valve covers just like the Viper engine intake has, then narrowed to a filter that can also fit into our air lids.

Sounds easier said then done, I know...but that would be the cats ass for F-Body intakes.

.

yes, hence the thread title... ;)

lol...

i'd like to see how these guys do it. when i saw it, it just made more sense to have separate velocity stacks when it came to room and working on the car. i have zero clue how to put that intake on or take it off the car with out dropping the motor. plus we'll have to agree to disagree because i dont see how making a plenum for a itb intake is going to be any better than separate filters.

sweeeet, love the way those TBs glow

i'd like to see how these guys do it. when i saw it, it just made more sense to have separate velocity stacks when it came to room and working on the car. i have zero clue how to put that intake on or take it off the car with out dropping the motor. plus we'll have to agree to disagree because i dont see how making a plenum for a itb intake is going to be any better than separate filters.

Well a dyno sheet will tell you. But I have no idea where the sheet I saw is located. If it really didn't matter, do you think Harrop would have just made the intake without a plenum? That should be the first clue.

We have used screens like that on individual TB engines on the dyno and have lost as much as 60hp. They do not work well like a proper air box or no filter at all.

We have used screens like that on individual TB engines on the dyno and have lost as much as 60hp. They do not work well like a proper air box or no filter at all.

Always good to hear directly from persons having experience with a product...

Christian

Well a dyno sheet will tell you. But I have no idea where the sheet I saw is located. If it really didn't matter, do you think Harrop would have just made the intake without a plenum? That should be the first clue.

the air box they make with the kit isnt worth a shit. just because a company sells you something with a kit doesnt mean much. i hear all this stuff about dyno sheets this and dynos that but no proof. also, that still goes back to what i said earlier. the air box provided from harrop wont fit on a f-body.

this thread delivers

not a damn thing

So has the engine been on the dyno yet ?

sorry we havn't got any dyno numbers yet,we are in the process of building some new dyno headers,should be done by the beginning of the week.


as for the airbox vs. screens on the itb's.i got a couple guys running some pretty quick bracket cars running enderle stack injection.We picked up a considerable amount of et when going to a sealed plenum on top of the stacks over letting them out in the open individually.Every engine needs a certain size plenum, on the itb's you need to put them on the inlet side of the throttle blade vs the traditional in the intake after the throttle blade

Thanks for the explanation Shawn.

Looking fwd to those numbers !!!!!!!!!!!:corn:

sorry we havn't got any dyno numbers yet,we are in the process of building some new dyno headers,should be done by the beginning of the week.


as for the airbox vs. screens on the itb's.i got a couple guys running some pretty quick bracket cars running enderle stack injection.We picked up a considerable amount of et when going to a sealed plenum on top of the stacks over letting them out in the open individually.Every engine needs a certain size plenum, on the itb's you need to put them on the inlet side of the throttle blade vs the traditional in the intake after the throttle blade

how do you determine the volume size of the plenum? also on these bracket cars were they rail dragsters or door slammers? with it being out in the open air and not coverd by a hood or scoop may have been an issue as well? i dont know how much or how fast the air moves under the hood of a f-body but i imagine with the stacks out in the open pressure differance and the speed of the air traveling over the car may affect the air going into the stacks.

everyone said that it wont work and you'll never make any HP with it compared to a sheet metal or fast 90/90 and just added more and more shit talk with nothing to back it up.

That's because there has been no real evidence of it being worth the money. There are thousands of people running fast/sheet metal intakes but how many are running ITB's?

That's because there has been no real evidence of it being worth the money. There are thousands of people running fast/sheet metal intakes but how many are running ITB's?

We have had good luck with an ITB manifold and it's not even dialed in yet.
A huge advantage over a sheetmetal is that it drives like a stock vehicle. (We are idling around 500rpm).
There is no doubt that Shawn and Ed will figure it out and make the car an absolute monster.

We have had good luck with an ITB manifold and it's not even dialed in yet.
A huge advantage over a sheetmetal is that it drives like a stock vehicle. (We are idling around 500rpm).
There is no doubt that Shawn and Ed will figure it out and make the car an absolute monster.

same thing i have going on with mine. my 247/252 @ 106 lsa cam idles at 800 rpm and has the driveability of a stock motor. these intakes are the shit once you get all the little bugs dialed out.

If you guys are going to continue arguing and not post anything informative,please do not continue to post in my thread

sorry we havn't got any dyno numbers yet,we are in the process of building some new dyno headers,should be done by the beginning of the week.


as for the airbox vs. screens on the itb's.i got a couple guys running some pretty quick bracket cars running enderle stack injection.We picked up a considerable amount of et when going to a sealed plenum on top of the stacks over letting them out in the open individually.Every engine needs a certain size plenum, on the itb's you need to put them on the inlet side of the throttle blade vs the traditional in the intake after the throttle blade

Makes perfect sense knowing the phenomenon that occurs in the trumpets.
Placing those injectors before the bell mouth will also make more power but is often hard to do.

We did test it on the engine dyno, it was a SBF and we lost a solid 55-60. I will ask Jack for the dyno sheets tomorrow. I believe it was a 408ci engine with a BS3 controller.

If you guys are going to continue arguing and not post anything informative,please do not continue to post in my thread

CODE BLUE!!!.......CODE BLUE!!!......HI JACKING IN PROGRESS!!! NOTHING MAY BE COMPLETED UNTIL THE WHINING IS OVER!!!!!!!!:hijack::punch::ripped:


It might be the lack of Roller Cam Bearings:devil:


Good luck Shawn!

We did test it on the engine dyno, it was a SBF and we lost a solid 55-60. I will ask Jack for the dyno sheets tomorrow. I believe it was a 408ci engine with a BS3 controller.

good deal i look forward to seeing them.

If you guys are going to continue arguing and not post anything informative,please do not continue to post in my thread

Helped ya out buddy.....

I cant wait to see how it does.

How long after the E Dyno will it take to get it in the car???

Kyle

well,we got some pulls on her today.We still have the breakin oil in and it was pretty heat soaked but so far we got 665 hp and 590 ft lbs.
We are going to add some plenums to the intake and possibly port match it to the heads-it was alot smaller that the head ports.


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures11-14-09025.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures11-14-09026.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures11-14-09027.jpg

Make sure to test it with the plenums before you port match it ;)

Great work!!

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh190/twinturboz28camaro/newpictures10-23-09021.jpg



Hey nice valve covers. I think I have seen these before.

Make sure to test it with the plenums before you port match it ;)

Great work!!


Yes, testing with the plenum on it may be a good idea bevore you port it....and after that...
Any kinds of filters will need to be run anyway.

Can´t wait to see the end results.

Well worth the wait man !!! Nice to see such high preliminary numbers. Hopefully further testing / tuning dials this beast in and yields even better numbers. Great Job Shawn !

Any guesstimates on what she may end up doing ?

Bad ass man. Im sure he will be stoked with the new found power.... it sure will be nice to see his car out and about again.

Looking good Shawn! Your customer has a great looking piece. 700HP here we come.

Nice thats some very good power sounds like you're going to hit your 700hp pretty easy once you get it tuned more.

how high did you spin it on those runs? what AFR?

well we drained the break in oil and put in some 10w30 mobile 1-made a couple adjustments to the tune and made 680hp and 606ft lbs.
peak power was at 6300 rpm

our 700hp goal isn't too far away:)

well we drained the break in oil and put in some 10w30 mobile 1-made a couple adjustments to the tune and made 680hp and 606ft lbs.
peak power was at 6300 rpm

our 700hp goal isn't too far away:)

Just in case anyone missed it........:D :eek2:

did you take some video? I would be curious to see if it revs faster than a conventional style manifold......

Great numbers so far!

Just in case anyone missed it........:D :eek2:

Where did the motor redline?

peak power was at 6300 rpm
Does it need a different cam? Aren't you leaving a bunch of power on the table with a peak that low?

yes we could put in a different cam and pick up more rpm,but,our goal was for a broad tq curve and usable power.high rpm horsepower is for light race cars not heavy street cars

BTW-we still have more rpm in it-just haven't pulled it that high yet:D