Corvette Performance - Can a vette out handle a biemer?

i have done some research and been lookin but cant come to any conclusions.. i hear the same rumors that american cars cant corner for shit. my friend has an 04 z06 commemorative edition and i am convinced it can because of the weight difference and length difference. anyone know the answer to my question and why?

i have done some research and been lookin but cant come to any conclusions.. i hear the same rumors that american cars cant corner for shit. my friend has an 04 z06 commemorative edition and i am convinced it can because of the weight difference and length difference. anyone know the answer to my question and why?

General questions, get general answers.....

A Z06 will outhandle any production BMW.....why? Just check the lateral g's on any car magazine.....

Z06 is .90 or better and BMW's are in the .8XXX

i hear the same rumors that american cars cant corner for shit

This must be why the C5Rs kick Ferrari asses on a regular basis and everything else Europe throws at them. :eyes:

I own both. The Bimmer, although a great automobile, doesn't hold a candle to my 'Vette in the performance department, straight-line or in the twisties.

BMW does not make a production car that will out handle a stock Z06.

I have both as well, and when not driving the Vette the BMW is the next best thing, but its not the Vette.

If I remember right, I had looked into this a while back due to a neighbor who claimed his BMW could out handle my car...LOL! He had a 325i with M3 suspension.
I think the M3 is about .89 Gs and the Corvette coupe w/Z51 susp .96 Gs and the Z06 is 1.04 Gs!
He would never take me up on a challenge, so he was just a bench racer. ;)

I believe GM rates it @ 1.02Gs. One of the next closest things I want to say was the ACR or Competition Coupe Viper @ 1.00 G. Motor Trend and C&D said in tests of the Z8 when it came out that customers who wanted that car for its performance were going to be let down and passed by Z06s and Vipers routinely, same as the M3 and M5 owners.

Its pure ignorance to say that american cars cant handle. Ford proved in the 60s they could build a car superior to Euro handling and GMs done it on the street and track for the past few years. The reasoning why I'd say most people assume that is b/c they think of the big muscle cars like Chevelle's and Road Runners and think they're 5,000lb barge's that cant turn and can only go straight. Take 'em for a run around the block to show 'em how an American car can turn, they'll have a great view behind you as show 'em how its done ;).

BMW's are great cars all I will own most likely is a GM or BMW product. But a BMW is a pasenger vehical even the M series are still passenger vehicals. They have excellent handling CHARACTERISTICS, a 3 series is a very comfortable car at speed with no edginess it inspires confidence in your own abilities driving it.

The Z06 is a completely different animal. There is so much there you have to think about it at all times, 55mph feels SO SLOW, its capibilites are much higher but it is also much more demanding. While at the same time it is very forgiving for a performance car. Drive a Z06 then get in a Mitsu 3000vr4 and you'll get the idea.

So if you wanted the ULTIMATE daily commuter its hard to beat a BMW especially an 330 or M3 but if you want a world class sports\track car buy a Z. They really are the best in thier catagories at least for the money....

I have both as well, and when not driving the Vette the BMW is the next best thing, but its not the Vette.

I concur. ;)

Anyone know what the 2003 M3 CSL does on the skidpad? There's a vid out on the net with one running a 7 minute romp around the Nurburgring.

Anyone know what the 2003 M3 CSL does on the skidpad? There's a vid out on the net with one running a 7 minute romp around the Nurburgring.

Not saying it isn't so but, somehow I doubt it. See link below. It is pretty "rare air" above the ZO6. And I doubt it could beat those cars by 30 seconds.

http://www.car-videos.com/performance/track.asp?track=7

I dunno...maybe you guys are right but something tells me that the C5 can't hold a candle to a CSL in the corners....

As for BMW's being passenger vehicles get into an M Coupe and tell me it corners worse than a C5

I dunno...maybe you guys are right but something tells me that the C5 can't hold a candle to a CSL in the corners....

As for BMW's being passenger vehicles get into an M Coupe and tell me it corners worse than a C5

I am sure a C5 will do just fine against the CSL.....especially a ZO6.

Them M coupes are neat cars......

I dunno...maybe you guys are right but something tells me that the C5 can't hold a candle to a CSL in the corners....

As for BMW's being passenger vehicles get into an M Coupe and tell me it corners worse than a C5

Something tells you...LOL! Skidpad numbers don't lie, nor do the track times. The Z06 has won the SCCA T-1 class four years consecutive, beating Vipers, Porsches, Ferraris, BMW's and what ever else enters the class. So something tells me that the M cars aren't as good as the hype that they get.
:judge:
In fact, I just read an article by a Viper driver in that class (t-1) that was complaining the Z06 was unbeatable. ;)

I've got a stupid question for you vette guys... The z06 badges say 405 hp but Dean-o
s only dynoed 411 with bolt ons and a cam? Are the HP numbers around 370 stock or something? Lemme know guys.

The best way to dyno the engine is with an engine dyno and the Z06 consistantly made 403-408 hp. With a Chassis dyno, it can be high or low depending on the operator. One of the better BMW tuners (Dinan) does not even believe in RWHP because of toooooo many variables.

The 405 goes back to the output @ the engine. If this car dyno'd say 371rwhp, with a 15% drivetrain loss thats about 427 hp @ the engine. From what Ive seen typically, they dyno stock about 350ish rwhp, which would be in the realm of 400-410 engine hp.

And Corvettes have dominated SCCA racing for a looooong time. Go check out the times of the older Grand Sports and see how those Cobra guys liked a wee lil ole 377 (originally, later got pushed up to 427) runnin out in front :D.

Dinan doesnt use RWHP numbers? thats lame. i dont care how many variable there are. if your not putting it down your not being efficient. who cares what the engine is rated at or what it makes. if it doesnt get to the wheels it doesnt matter, its wasted. sorry my opinion is thats lame that he doesnt use wheel power numbers.

can a vette or Z06 out handle a bimmer? umm yeah not question period. the skipad numbers arent everything, how the car transitions is more important. ive seen a number of M3s pushed to their limits on the autox course and a number of Z06s pushed too. no way does the bimmer come close.

and just to piss anyone else off bimmers are so very overrated. the 3 series is nothing special the M3 isnt bad but not for that price tag. ill take GTO over any 3series anyday. argh you want a good german car get a mercedes

I've got a stupid question for you vette guys... The z06 badges say 405 hp but Dean-o
s only dynoed 411 with bolt ons and a cam? Are the HP numbers around 370 stock or something? Lemme know guys.

Dude, wake up...LOL! That is 411 rear wheel horsepower!
Stock they dyno from 350 - 360 rwhp due to drive train losses. I don't know how effecient the Corvette drivetrain is, but is you divide 350 by 405 it equals .864, which means it is losing around 13.5% of it's horsepower by the time it gets to the rear tires. If we round it down to 13%, then you would divide rwhp by .87 to get the flywheel horsepower. So divide 411 by .87 and you get 472.4 horsepower at the motor. Make sense now? :)

Just thought Id add a little to this. Im not sure what camaros handle but im sure its around .88 to .90 on the skid pad. Now if anyone is an x ford buff many of you will remember when jackie stewart drove the 93 mustang and the 93 SVT lightning. He got out of the truck after he had drivin the mustang and said "now thats how the mustang should handle". I tend to disagree that american cars cant handle. My god father has gone through 3 vettes and numerous bmw's. He said the bmw's handle good but dont let you know when they are going to give in a corner, they just let loose. American cars tend to squeel and let you know your pushing them too much. Just thought Id add a little to this, I used to be a lightning guy. :D

I have driven all over Germany in a many BMWs and Mercedes along with Renaults, Skodas, ect. I have not had a vette on the autobahn or on a mountain road, but BMWs in Germany arent like the ones here in the states. They all have wider/better tires, more PS(hp), all wheel drive, and kick ass brakes. I would love to have a C5 on the autobahn and some of the awesome mountain roads, but I think the BMW is easier to drive in those conditions, its purpose built for just that. If anybody wants to pay to get a vette over there I know of plenty of people that will line up against you and show you what a BMW can do. Maybe you can line up against the new M6 with 500ps. And yes I have driven many C4 and C5 vettes here in Houston, where it is flat and boring. So I don’t have much twisty experience w/ a vette.

I have driven all over Germany in a many BMWs and Mercedes along with Renaults, Skodas, ect. I have not had a vette on the autobahn or on a mountain road, but BMWs in Germany arent like the ones here in the states. They all have wider/better tires, more PS(hp), all wheel drive, and kick ass brakes. I would love to have a C5 on the autobahn and some of the awesome mountain roads, but I think the BMW is easier to drive in those conditions, its purpose built for just that. If anybody wants to pay to get a vette over there I know of plenty of people that will line up against you and show you what a BMW can do. Maybe you can line up against the new M6 with 500ps. And yes I have driven many C4 and C5 vettes here in Houston, where it is flat and boring. So I don’t have much twisty experience w/ a vette.
Sounds like Germany is the place to own a BMW, go figure. I'm glad I live in the USA and drive a Corvette. I'm all american like that...LOL! :usa:

I have driven all over Germany in a many BMWs and Mercedes along with Renaults, Skodas, ect. I have not had a vette on the autobahn or on a mountain road, but BMWs in Germany arent like the ones here in the states. They all have wider/better tires, more PS(hp), all wheel drive, and kick ass brakes. I would love to have a C5 on the autobahn and some of the awesome mountain roads, but I think the BMW is easier to drive in those conditions, its purpose built for just that. If anybody wants to pay to get a vette over there I know of plenty of people that will line up against you and show you what a BMW can do. Maybe you can line up against the new M6 with 500ps. And yes I have driven many C4 and C5 vettes here in Houston, where it is flat and boring. So I don’t have much twisty experience w/ a vette.

Conde Nast Traveler did an article on exactly that. Jay Leno paid to have a vette shipped over there so he could drive it on the Autobahn. You may try the archives are something like that or a google. It was a very good read.

Just thought Id add a little to this. Im not sure what camaros handle but im sure its around .88 to .90 on the skid pad. Now if anyone is an x ford buff many of you will remember when jackie stewart drove the 93 mustang and the 93 SVT lightning. He got out of the truck after he had drivin the mustang and said "now thats how the mustang should handle". I tend to disagree that american cars cant handle. My god father has gone through 3 vettes and numerous bmw's. He said the bmw's handle good but dont let you know when they are going to give in a corner, they just let loose. American cars tend to squeel and let you know your pushing them too much. Just thought Id add a little to this, I used to be a lightning guy. :D

That's called shitty rubber. Just because a vehicle squeals at its cornering limits, it does not make it a great handling vehicle. :eyes: What does "let loose" as you like to put it mean anyway? I have two friends who have E46s (one a 330i and the other a 325Ci, both with 5 speed manuals) and both of these guys track their cars and they didn't seem to have any issues with this magical "letting loose" phenomenon. I'm sure the Bridgestone Potenza S03s on my friends 330i helped to counter some of that with exceptional grip :nod: but regardless, I don't know what you mean by "let loose." Exactly what kind of Corvettes and BMWs has your uncle owned?

And all this talk of "oooh, this car pulls this on a skidpad = great handling" is false advertising. skidpad numbers do not tell the entire story of a vehicles handling capabilities or characteristics. Slalom numbers, suspension layouts, suspension setups, weight distribution, drivetrain layout, drive wheels, curb weight and a whole sheeshload of stuff determine a cars handlng characteristics. Not only that, but different vehicles will perform better or worse depending on the track layout.

Don't get me wrong, I'm positive a Z06 would pretty much rape any current BMW around a track (although the E60 M5 may give the Vette a run for its money), but it is not due solely to skidpad numbers. It's due to the fact that the Corvette is a balls to the wall sports car built to compete with the best while the current crop of M products are great engines and great suspensions within great cars that are originally intended to be luxurious people movers.

Bruddah_Matt, very nicely said!!!

Bruddah_Matt, very nicely said!!!

I second that! :cheers:

But I say to each his own, if you want a BMW then buy one.