Small Block & Big Block Chevy Specific - Nascar style SBC or Supercharged BBC?

What would you guys do?

A BBC like this:
http://carcraft.com/projectbuild/116_0309_afr/

or

A 354ci, 9,000rpm SBC
4.165" x 3.25"

In the next couple of years I'd like to build a drag only car. Most likely a Gen 3/4 Camaro or firebird.

Anyone have anything like these set-ups?

I screaming SBC is always nice but reliability might lean towards a crate engine of the BBC all motor variety. 900-1000hp+ can be bought from any engine builder in the form of a BBC for the same or less money than you can build an exact replica of a Nextel Cup engine or the like. Less rpm with the big block will make it more reliable but then again only an idiot would say a nascar/busch/winston cup engine isn't reliable.:)

Doing a search for big power crate engines is always fun, try it out.

hey man...

nothing like an apples to oranges comparison huh? why not ask about the best way to make the power you're looking for? one will make around 750hp with a lot of work put into it for exotic pieces to handle those rpm's, and the other is a torque monster which would of course be the better of the two for a drag application. if you're just looking for the 750ish hp, then look into a nice 383 or something with a blower on it. if you want more power, than look into the bbc. but, you've got a long time to think about it. just figure out what kind of hp you want to make, how much you want to spend, and go from there.

later,
Dave

Agreed with Dave totally. Both have their positives, but the BBC will work on price and reliability issues. Just make you figure out what #s you want before you build.

Derek

I was looking for a 150mph trap at a 3250lb race weight.

I'm kinda leaning to the BBC, as I already have a '73 454 block ready to go, but I have always had an inkling towards the high rpm shriek of a NASCAR style SBC.

why not build a high RPM BBC? 9000 RPM is very doable.

Personally I am all for building the biggest cubic inch engine that you can. The only reason not to do that is if you have a cubic inch limit rule or a # per cid limit in a class that you are running.

You could build a 406 with SB2.2 heads/intake/cam. The heads and intake are relatively cheap used, buy a new cam, and you are ready to get started. The cup teams make 800hp wiht regualtions on carb size, c.i., etc. Go with more cubes, slightly bigger carb, and a street friendly compression ratio and you could easily match it.

But, a big-block would still be a cheaper means to the same end. I have always been a SBC guy myself, but you cant beat big-block torque. And, despite all the rumors, they can be made to rev. Take a 502 to 7k rpm, and you will be maikng big HP numbers too.

The only problem you will have with the NASCAR style motor is,there power band lays withing 5500-9000 RPM they dont make a lot of power down low obviously because of what they do. The BBC you can make scream way up there like ADIOSS said... I know of a blown 454 that pulls 10,000 through the traps with a GM crank still in it and the damn thing never breaks...

The only problem you will have with the NASCAR style motor is,there power band lays withing 5500-9000 RPM they dont make a lot of power down low obviously because of what they do. The BBC you can make scream way up there like ADIOSS said... I know of a blown 454 that pulls 10,000 through the traps with a GM crank still in it and the damn thing never breaks...
The power band is mostly in the cam. If you went with a different cam and more cubes you could easily bring the power level down in the band. There is a lot of street engines being built with old cup stuff because of the power levels you can get and the price you can buy lightly used stuff for. There are cam grinds being made for drag application SB2, at reasonable prices also.

We're building an SB2.2 drag motor right now, using a Motown block, and bow tie intake. 16:1 compression, and 3 systems on it. 434 inches. It will make well over 750 on motor alone, and 9000 should be no prob. I loooooooooooooooooooovvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeee small blocks though. :)

Isn't the cost about the same for a 540 bbc and a SB2.2? A friend of mine has a N/A 540 in his dragster with a single holley making 1120 hp. I think he has about $20,000 into it. Putting SB2.2 stuff on a 400 or 421 sbc might be a really good idea.

Single dominator w/ 540 inches making 1120 hp? If that's true, that's incredible.

Here's a comparison
http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/products/engines/615chevysingle.php

drag racing go witha bbc... sb2's are more for the road/circle track

I kinda figured that the SBC's were for the roundy-round stuff, but had wondered about a max effort SBC.

Thanks for the opinions guys.

what you need is to scrap the NASCAR idea and go with a 440 cid small block dart or all pro 15 deg heads fuel injected dry sump... watched a combo like this do 700/740 on an engine dyno.. mostly under 7000 rpm...

Well, personally I like the idea of whippin Big Blks with my Small blk, but to make big power you need big heads, and some cubes won't hurt either.

Any time you approach the 700 horse and up range, economy goes out the window.

But I don't think a winston cup style sm.blk would be ideal for your best e.ts. And 750 hp, ain't gettin you 150 mph trap speeds @ 3250.

what you need is to scrap the NASCAR idea and go with a 440 cid small block dart or all pro 15 deg heads fuel injected dry sump... watched a combo like this do 700/740 on an engine dyno.. mostly under 7000 rpm...


i should make that kind of power no problem on my 10.5:1 CR 427 with 18* heads when i have them ported. plus, though not cheap, they would cost less than the 15* heads......i would think anyway. i've honestly never priced them. but combined with the porting, and adding a 250-300 shot of N20, 150 mph, high 8 sec. should not be out of the question with all other variables in your favor with the main one being traction.

Dave

I am already doing the math in my head. Working out paychecks, bills and whatnot.

I'll let you guys know what happens.

Single dominator w/ 540 inches making 1120 hp? If that's true, that's incredible.

Thats not unheard of..Its a good number..The old race motor i had before I went Blown Alky was a 540 and I made 1100 hp with Dart 360' and a single dominator...now i make over 1300 with an 8:71 blower ontop of it...

I kinda figured that the SBC's were for the roundy-round stuff, but had wondered about a max effort SBC.

Thanks for the opinions guys.
what bout a hardcore sbc454?

what bout a hardcore sbc454?

A hardcore 454 has small intake runners for the displacement. Great for Torque, but not a max effort engine.

I agree w/Fandango a standard 23* head is a restriction on a large cu. in. sm. blk.

This is why I'm switching to an 18* head. My AFR220s are an excellent head, I think on a 383 or 406 they would rock, but since I have such a high quality bottom end, I can't justify a new motor right now. I have a 421, I love the torque of the smaller head, it has great throttle response, and this motor has been driven on the street with no problems.

So I guess as always, the question is what are your goals...budget...and intentions for your combo?

drag racing go witha bbc... sb2's are more for the road/circle track
The smaller cube SB2's are good for NASCAR. The big bube SB2.2s are fantastic drag motors. We had one two years ago do 835 on the engine dyno. It was a 422.

I say go bbc. The extra cubes will make it easier to reach the power levels you want and tame it down a little....depending on how you build it. A blown bbc would make plenty of power.
And if you follow the article you posted try a 502 or 509.....should make it interesting. :jest:

I was going to go with a 489. The 454 I have is a cast crank standard fare 1973 model.

I figure that a 9:1 compression ratio will be enough for me on 7psi. Heck, maybe even throw on an intercooler to crest 1000hp. Maybe even a small 50 shot.

I'd also go with a splayed 4 bolt main conversion. 4.25" crank, 4.28" pistons, 6.385" rod. The one thing I have been debating though is aluminum rods or steel rods. Aluminum rods would help offset the extra rotating mass of the 4.25" crank. But I'm not sure that they would clear the pan rails on that much of a stroke.

yada yada yada. It's all talk until I pony up the money and do something.

If you're gonna drive it on the street at all you should go with steel rods even if they are heavier. One of the threads a while back on whipplechargers showed a dual 2.1 liter setup good for 880 hp at the crank, and you can't beat that whining sound....

Why no aluminum rods on the street?
I'm sure the load on the engine would be less on the street.
Is it time of engine operation a consideration?

And 750 hp, ain't gettin you 150 mph trap speeds @ 3250.
With that combo you'd be looking at trap speeds closer to 145.

Why no aluminum rods on the street?
I'm sure the load on the engine would be less on the street.
Is it time of engine operation a consideration?
aluminum rods stretch and break a LOT sooner than steel rods. Steel rods will almost last forever. A competitive drag racer will need to change alum rods every season minimum.

aluminum rods stretch and break a LOT sooner than steel rods. Steel rods will almost last forever. A competitive drag racer will need to change alum rods every season minimum.
yep.
remember that rods are subjected to compression and stretching(can't remember the proper term) and stretching is where aluminum shows its weakness. Real street cars should run steel rods almost every time(ls7 comes to mind as an exception).
Just my 2 cents.

yep.
remember that rods are subjected to compression and stretching(can't remember the proper term) and stretching is where aluminum shows its weakness. Real street cars should run steel rods almost every time(ls7 comes to mind as an exception).
Just my 2 cents.

SO, the tensile strength on aluminum rods pretty much sucks is what I am getting out of this reading. Steel rods it is then.

Might have to step it up to a little more power and go with that 489 to get those 150mph traps.

Racers generally count the runs on an aluminum rodded motor for their life expectancy, on a street motor you lose track and may run them too long and that could be ugly.

My old man had a black flamed 57 chevy with an aluminum 434 SB2 headed motor and a 5 speed. He ran 9.0's @ 153 @ about 3200 lbs on 10" slicks. It made apx 950 hp with 2 carbs and 900 hp with 1 carb. (made 860 hp on Patterson's dyno with 1 carb, belt water pump, less compression, less port work and 7 ci smaller.) Used to smoke a lot of big blocks with NOS and powerglides. He alway liked when people would ask him how much nitrous he was spraying and he would tell them none. Its for sale with the transmission if your interested. It had a different sound than anything else you would here at the track, it flat screamed.

Stan Williams
stan@williamsservice.com

Single dominator w/ 540 inches making 1120 hp? If that's true, that's incredible.
You could drop a golf ball down the intake port. He has a new setup now. You need some Pro-filer heads. Check out the new setup.http://www.stoenracing.com/aboutus.html
http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/ssr_066.htm

Do you need custom pistons for a big cube sb2.2? Could a person use the stock short block with dished pistons? I know it would need a different cam, headers, and intake valvecovers.

You have to decide on an end goal and do it. How quick do I need to be..How much power do I need to get there...Can I do it with my chassis...How bad do I want this? Since I have a post going concerning an SB2 Vs. LS1 I am going to sound a little off here; but I would go with the BBC over the SB2 if you don't have access to good used Cup parts. I am not knocking the SB2, as they are very bad; but unless you get some stroke in them they are going to want to wind to the moon. If you cam them for low RPM with Cup cubes you are waisting their potential. I know that the late Mr. Lingenfelter had some experience with these heads in both high and low r.p.m. applications way back to the pre .2 versions. He had a SB2 dragster that he was running in an NHRA altered class before the pro stock truck thing. At one race at Gateway he had a lifter bar failure and knocked the socks off of one of my buddies (Same Class) when he simply stuck in a new pair of lifters and popped the intake back on with the missing chunks of lifter who knows where. After the incedent my buddy went back to finish putting their car together and I stayed behind to talk to John. His comment to me was that it really gets my buddies goat when they have to spend all of there between rounds time grinding clutches and messing with tunning their big chief headed BBC just to get beat by a econo type dragster with a S.B.C. and a powerglide. He woulf rather spend his between round time drinking rootbeer and relaxing which is exactly what was done following the incedent. B.T.W. he won that event putting my buddies team in second place. That followed through the whole Pro-Stock truck thing even though they then ran as teammates; but that was with 12°'s or non SB2 splayed valve heads. In any event I would still go with the BBC for your basic no cube drag classes especially if you have a heavy car. The CC engine is cool; but I have seen enough 502's and H.O. 454's with the dammaged cylinder walls due to ring butting that I would chose to build my own. If you are an engine guy a crate just doesn't rate; but they must make it nice if you are trying to make a publishing date. FastTimes motorworks had an engine build published in an older PHR that was built around a procharged 502 pump gas engine. You might want to check this out if you don't have any of the parts bought yet. It was what every 502 dreams of being when it grows up. If all you are looking for is r.p.m. then just snip those little loops of wire on the back of your tach.

Thats the thing. I have a seasoned 2 bolt main '73 454 just sitting at home, with no use for it, or any car for that matter. It's nothing special, just a cast crank, cast piston affair. I have heard that the stock cranks are good for about 600hp, and the oil system is just about bulletproof. Thats why I had the interest in the BBC.

On the other hand, nothing quite sounds like a SBC shreiking down the track ,while grabbing gears. In all honesty I think the SB2 thing is a dream, but would be cool to do, and make it consistently quick, like Lingenfelter's setup you mentioned.

Forged blower pistons are cheap and easy to find for BBC engines, so that is a plus. The same thing goes for the rotating assembly. The same crank they used in that CarCraft article is about ~450 from SDPC, from what I remember. Also, using stock style forged rods would keep the cost down as well. But then the blower adds up, andI'd like to use an intercooler of some kind. Be it a small shot of nitrous, liquid to air, or air to air.

I think I just talked myself into the BBC. :D

My old man can make your SB2 dream a reality if your interested. Give him a call he wants to sell one. 434 ci 950 hp n/a screamer. Ask for Rodney Williams 620-878-4225 from 8-5:30 central time. thanks Stan Williams

i have experience with both...first the sbc at 393 ci and sb2 heads...the sb2 is an exotic head which requires more work to do regular maintenance like torqueing the heads, they cost more to get set up and require sb2 specific valvetrain(make sure the set you buy has the rockers), pistons, headers, & more...there are several different versions of sb2 with slight differences just enough to get in your wallet...it loves 7000 rpm +...to optimize the power you need a 5sp like a liberty with clutch...for all that expense i only gained 100 or so horsepower..they are cool tho, and people gawk their eyeballs out....then i changed to splayed valve chevy heads and they were much nicer at the drag strip but just as much a pain in the ass to maintain & set up....now for my all-time favorite....BBC...you cant go wrong...you can even build one with used parts with 15yr old technology and make 1000 hp...if i had to chose, go BBC, blown or nitrous, its the way to go