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mrgto
01-16-2003, 05:56 AM
PONTIAC

Seems Pontiac has been getting all the glory as of late. Most of the excitement has centered around the upcoming GTO, which recently debuted on the show circuit. The show car GTO’s are very hurried examples based on previous generation (2002) Monaro chassis, as evidenced by the Australian gauge cluster, single exhaust and by some accounts unmoved gas tank (I have not verified this). The production car will be based on the upcoming 04 Monaro, which has dual exhaust, revised gas tank location, and a power boost. The engine for the GTO is said to be specific to that car, and I am hedging my bets that the production version will be even more powerful. The reason I say this is because a month ago I had discussions with a GM press rep, and he told me that the production GTO had not had final horsepower numbers set, and they were still tweaking many things about the car. Well as we held those discussions, the show cars had been finished and on US shores for 2 months. In short don’t believe that the 340HP number as the end point for 2004 GTO power, I am expecting the final number to be closer to 360HP expected for the IV Gen V8. Pontiac did something similar with the 04 Grand Prix initially setting HP at 250, then increasing it to 260HP as testing and development progressed.

The next generation GTO will be built in North America alongside the Pontiac Grand Prix. Both cars will ride on a new chassis that will essentially be the mating of the luxury Sigma Platform and the current V-car platform. The biggest change to Sigma will be the addition V-car type suspension components. The RWD Grand Prix has already been under development for a year as a 4-door version of the new platform, with the GTO being planned as the 2 door model. Expect the GTO to remain fairly exclusive, with the Grand Prix having models to fit a wide cost range, much like now with the price difference between the base GT and expensive GTP Comp G. These cars should be ready by 2006.

The Pontiac G6 show car was little more than a thinly disguised 05 Grand Am, essentially the equivalent of the G-Force show car to the 04 Grand Prix. The new Grand Am will be a major step upscale for Pontiac. While it’s Epsilon platform sister the Malibu will see plebian duty as Chevy’s affordable people hauler, Grand Am will take the platforms abilities to the limit. The showstopper will be a retractable hardtop coupe that will feature AWD, a 6-speed manual, and a forced induction V6 making somewhere between 260 and 300HP. This car was expected to be Pontiac’s new halo car pre GTO, so prices will approach the mid $30K’s loaded. Take away some options and you will go down to the sedan which looks much like the G6 that in base for will cover the affordable market the current Grand Am Covers.

The Solstice is green-lighted and will ride on a new small RWD architecture that will be shared with the Saturn Sky and Buick Bengal. I expect this “new” platform to be a mix of Delta and off the shelf GM parts much like the show car. Developing an all-new chassis will cost too much for GM to keep the cars at their projected price point. Also the name Solstice may be dumped in favor of Firebird or Sunfire.

Pontiac’s future in the economy car market at this point is uncertain. I am unsure of any plans to replace the current Sunfire after it dies in 2005.


BBYZED
01-16-2003, 10:12 AM
WTF??? A Grand Am with 260-300 hp? Why in God's name did I buy an F-body and a Grand Prix? They've got it all in one car! This is getting ridiculous. Soon my f-body will be slower than a typical GM family car. Ridiculous.

The Alchemist
01-16-2003, 11:07 AM
Well I am happy to hear (if its true) that they will offer more rwd vehicles.

Aside from overall performance, I just hate fwd vehicles. I hate how they pull you all over the road.

You can always do appearance mods, but the chassis and drivetrain are tough to change.


horist
01-16-2003, 11:24 AM
woohoo! the gto will be produced next to the grand prix <img border="0" alt="[shoot]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" />

I hope they put the badging on before they finish production... cause if they don't how are they going to tell the difference between the two? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" />

LS1LT1
01-16-2003, 11:40 AM
Cool, the GTO might get more power yet, good news! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

formul8
01-16-2003, 12:07 PM
I did a car survey forum to evaluate a new design a year ago, and the new Grand Am design was almost exact what I was evaluating.

Looks like GM and Pontiac are getting serious.

360HP in the GTO?!?! Placing deposit ASAP....

RPM WS6
01-16-2003, 09:19 PM
Am I the only one that thinks this "360hp" rating is just a scam? Think of it this way, we all know that a stock '01/'02 LS1 car (m6 for this exapmle) will usually dyno about 310-325rwhp stock. This means the car is actually making about 350/360hp at the flywheel to begin with rather than the rated 310. So, there are two ways to look at this, either:

A) This car will actually be making more like 400hp at the flywheel.

B) GM underrated the F-bodies on purpose just to be able to use nearly the exact same power plant in a different car farther down the line (GTO?), and give a better rating (on target this time) without having to actually change anything?

I'm guessing that B is/was a very attractive idea for GM. You can't expect them to keep underrating every car with an LS1 type motor in them forever. I'm sure eventually they will come in right on target. If this is true, then basically this GTO will make no more power on the dyno than a last year F-car, and will probably run worse ETs due to weight.

2000LS1Z28
01-16-2003, 10:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BBYZED:
<strong> WTF??? A Grand Am with 260-300 hp? Why in God's name did I buy an F-body and a Grand Prix? They've got it all in one car! This is getting ridiculous. Soon my f-body will be slower than a typical GM family car. Ridiculous. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't agree more. A Grand Am with 300(or close to) horsepower. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> In another two or three years, many of your average sedans(whether built for performance or not) will be running around with 250-300+ horsepower as a standard. Still not quite up to a factory LS1 F-car or C5 platform, but close. LT1's will be a distant memory. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> Thats just the way of new times. And this is only the beginning.

But by that time, my Z will still be way ahead of 99% of what's out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Thank goodness for mods. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mike

2000LS1Z28
01-16-2003, 10:42 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong> Am I the only one that thinks this "360hp" rating is just a scam? Think of it this way, we all know that a stock '01/'02 LS1 car (m6 for this exapmle) will usually dyno about 310-325rwhp stock. This means the car is actually making about 350/360hp at the flywheel to begin with rather than the rated 310. So, there are two ways to look at this, either:

A) This car will actually be making more like 400hp at the flywheel.

B) GM underrated the F-bodies on purpose just to be able to use nearly the exact same power plant in a different car farther down the line (GTO?), and give a better rating (on target this time) without having to actually change anything?

I'm guessing that B is/was a very attractive idea for GM. You can't expect them to keep underrating every car with an LS1 type motor in them forever. I'm sure eventually they will come in right on target. If this is true, then basically this GTO will make no more power on the dyno than a last year F-car, and will probably run worse ETs due to weight. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ryan, I wish every 01+ M6 F-car dynoed that high stock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> My dud only pulled 298rwhp(but with only 1,200 miles). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> And I've seen plenty of others(M6's) dyno that or LESS. Although mine ain't such a dud anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> BTW, 298 at the wheels comes out to 350 at the crank if you use a 15% drivetrain loss for the manual transmission.

I agree with (B). I surely hope not that a stock GTO will make 50 more horsepower than a stock 98+ LS1 F-car or C5.

RPM WS6
01-16-2003, 11:49 PM
Mike, the issue with your car is that you had 1200 miles on it. Try again at 6,000 or 9,000 and you'll probably hit 310 or 315 stock...that is if you haven't done stuff that you can't undo yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Also, I think the issue is that you need heads/cam, blower, and some N2O. Then you won't have to worry about much of anything on the road... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Hybrid Slow
01-17-2003, 12:37 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong> B) GM underrated the F-bodies on purpose just to be able to use nearly the exact same power plant in a different car farther down the line (GTO?), and give a better rating (on target this time) without having to actually change anything?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, thats pretty much correct... Except that the underrating was done for the C5's sake, not the GTO's.

RPM WS6
01-17-2003, 01:10 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Hybrid Slow:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong> B) GM underrated the F-bodies on purpose just to be able to use nearly the exact same power plant in a different car farther down the line (GTO?), and give a better rating (on target this time) without having to actually change anything?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, thats pretty much correct... Except that the underrating was done for the C5's sake, not the GTO's. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree. And I think that they're going to use it to their advantage once again with the GTO.

unit213
01-17-2003, 12:54 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong> Am I the only one that thinks this "360hp" rating is just a scam? Think of it this way, we all know that a stock '01/'02 LS1 car (m6 for this exapmle) will usually dyno about 310-325rwhp stock. This means the car is actually making about 350/360hp at the flywheel to begin with rather than the rated 310. So, there are two ways to look at this, either:

A) This car will actually be making more like 400hp at the flywheel.

B) GM underrated the F-bodies on purpose just to be able to use nearly the exact same power plant in a different car farther down the line (GTO?), and give a better rating (on target this time) without having to actually change anything?

I'm guessing that B is/was a very attractive idea for GM. You can't expect them to keep underrating every car with an LS1 type motor in them forever. I'm sure eventually they will come in right on target. If this is true, then basically this GTO will make no more power on the dyno than a last year F-car, and will probably run worse ETs due to weight. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Preach on brother, preach on. I think you hit the nail on the head.