Stereo & Electronics - One Sub or Two? If one which one?

I've had a lot of different stereo setups in a lot of different cars... but I've never had just one sub in my setup. People tell me all the time that a single sub can sound as good as two, but it doesn't seem possible to me. If you were going to set up a single sub system would you stick with a 12" or would you go to a bigger one like a 15? I'm going to be driving this off of a Alpine MRV-F450 amp that runs 4 ohms on the sub channel and is not stable at 2... so I need a single voice coil 4 ohm.

Also... I'm more concerned about quality of sound, not so much on decibels.

There are rules of thumb about this. I believe it is double the subs you get an increase of 6db. If you double the power you increase output by 6db. This is with the same speaker. You can also port your speaker to increase output by about 6db.

The options are limitless... the size speaker will change its frequency response, but the enclosure is most important for determining that.

Most high quality speakers are dual ohm voice coils now.

This is all FYI, doesn't really answer your question because you need to give specifics about if you want SQ, one loud frequency, what enclosure you want etc etc.

Brian

Sound quality > all :)

dude i have one jl audio 12 it rocks, i had 2 in there but i neede a lil trunk space, i like the one better. get a good set of components to put up front and in the back, it will rock. the box that hides in the back, subthump, is perfect for the jl u wont be dissapointed. its all i needed but then agian im not entering any contests for my sound equipment. or if you have to have more speakers u can make 8's fit in the back and have you 12 in the trunk, its all about sound quality and clearity to me. and u have to find the right box size and power u put to the speaker.

Why would you run a sub with a 4ch amp? Sell the amp, and get one that is stable so you can run a dvc sub. You are limiting yourself so much by going this route. As for a good SQ sub -> IDQ, Oz matrix elite, JL w6v2, eD Ov2 just to name a few. Many people out there say the bigger the better, but I feel that a 15" takes up way too much room.

And just to clarify, if you double the power, you will see an increase of 3dbs, not six.

edit: here is a great amp stable to 1ohm for $159 http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/2307

It is a 5 channel amp, 50x4 and 200x1 for subs. I have it already and am not getting another amp. Not trying to be rude, and thanks for the suggestion.

Run a single JL12W7 and use a JL Audio 500/1 to power it. It won't take up too much space and it will sound awesome and have damn good output. (I have a new one of each for sale if you're interested pm me.)

Just to clear things up I am debating what to do still. I do not want another amplifier. I'm debating getting ONE sub @ 4ohms and run it by itself, or use the PAIR of Fosgate HX2 subs that I currently own with them wired up to make a 4 ohm load. I have taken out the back seats and am prepared to build a box with a friend that worked with fiberglass for years. This is the recommended ported box from the user manual for each sub.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/zorrander/subspecs.jpg

From this pic it has a range all the way up to 4.0 cu ft for the box. What would a box this big do different from the 2.0 cu ft? Sorry for the noobish questions... my experience in these things is limited.

This was taken from another site:

The box size requirement is dependant upon many factors, including the subwoofers suspension, motor strength, cone mass, size, as well as many other factors. A sealed box is simply a specific mass of air that reinforces the subwoofers suspension, a more efficient sub, like those designed for ported boxes, will have low mass cones, a loose suspension, or a very strong motor. These subwoofers will work well in a smaller sealed box. Subwoofers with a tight suspension, weaker motor, or heavier cone need a larger suspension to take advantage of it. If you go too large, you'll end up with good transient response and bandwidth, but you lose mechanical control over the subwoofer. Too small, and the resonant frequency of the system will be high, the sub will have a very peaky response, and will require more power to reach it's excursion capabilities.

Also, keep in mind that a dual 2ohm speaker wired in series will achieve a 4 ohm load as well. So, an IDQ, eD Ov2 (essentially the same as the IDQ), and Oz audio Matrix elite would work fine as they are all offered in dual 2ohm configurations.

That makes sense because I have had subs in boxes that were too small and know what that sounds like. I've just never had a sub in a box that was too big. :)

Keep in mind also, that most enclosures built in the back seat will not be as good overall (sound quality and Low bass extension) then one in the rear of the car. You need atleast 8 ft. for a 12" sub to generate it's full soundwave at lower freqencys. I hope that makes sense, I tried to say it basic.

I'm not going to use the rear hatch space for any of this stereo equipment. If I have the ports aimed up would that give the space needed for it to produce the sound? This is turning into a real pain in the ass.

If you are looking for SQ, I'm still curious why you're planning on going ported. Regardless, speakers in the hatch area will be fine no matter if they're vented or sealed.

This amp only puts out 200W to the sub channels, 371W max according to the spec sheets. I've always steered toward ported boxes for subs that weren't going to get a lot of power. If this is a mistake then please let me know. In my experiences a sealed box needed a good deal of power to get them sounding good where a ported box was louder with less power.

I'm also wondering if I would be better off with a pair of 10s intead of 12s due to the point of throw distance brought up previously. I had my 12's in the trunk in my Mach 1 and they sounded good, but required a ton of power to get them to hit.

Again I am working with the back seat area, not the hatch...

Anyone ever built a speaker box that fit in the back seat area that had a really good sound? If so what speakers and box type did you use?

And again... I am using the rear seat area, not the hatch area.

Sorry, i misread your post about where the sub was going. I am not sure how the sub will perform in the backseat area. i have seen it done, but I am not aware of the performance of it back there. I would imagine that it would suffer some cancellation, but again I am not sure. I would post on fbodyaudio.com. They have a few really knowledgeable guys there (cliffj and djsexay) that I'm sure can answer your question.

Anyways, I am confused about going with two 10's. If you think you don't have enough power for 1 sub, then why do you think you'll have enough for two?

I have 2 12's now and one person posted about distance from speaker to end of cabin. I was wondering if 2 10s would work better for the shorter distance... I will post on fbodyaudio and see what they say.

It's all in the enclosure design. 10s do sound better for most applications, but do not have the impact that 12s have down low. In my opinion a good single 12 glassed into the rear somewhere will yield the best results. No cancellation and enough wavelength. Also, Alpine's 5-ch for the most part has NEVER had good sub section in it. Even most their sub amps are weak in comparison to others. If you are going to do this right, get a good amplifer that can control the subs, and you will be A LOT happier in the end.

I would like to restate yet again that I am not putting the subs in the hatch and I am not using another amplifier... I got some specs on boxes and such from a guy at fbodyaudio.com that helped me out. As far as I am concerned this thread is now closed... thanks. :bang:

Good thread. Good topic to discuss.

Doubling of either Cone area or Power is a 3 dB increase. So going from 1 10" to 2 10" and the same amount of power into each, is 3dB. Double the power into a speaker is 3 dB. Double power and Double Cone area is 6 dB. Our human ears can perceive a Doubling of volume between 7-10dB. So just putting in more subs for a 3 dB increase doesn't mean it will be perceived as Twice as loud.

Porting can be used to either lower the Fs (increase the extension of the freq range) or can be used for large gains. Just saying 3 dB is not that good of a rule of thumb. Most manufacture specs for port enclosure (Bass Reflex) is around 2-5 dB gain. Not bad.

Down side of porting is that you Need a Subsonic filter, or be really carefull what you play. Playing Freq's below the tunning frequency will make the Suspension system loose control. There-for, there is uncontrolled excussion that will damage the speaker in the long run or imediatly.

It is actually better to go for Cone area than for power. Power requires more Current (I.E. More costly upgrades to support that. Alt, 4ga 1/0 ga wire, Bigger gnd's, Larger or better Capacitors). This also places more strain on the motor structure and Suspension system (Worn out speaker). Also causes more heat to be disapated. So it is actually better to go for a second sub over 1 beacuse it is better.

Down sides are: More space consumed. Our cars are not all that friendly more subs and their enclosures. This is also more weight to drive around daily.

1 10" (Good sub) in the Drive's side cubby hole, has pretty good output. IT also makes the best sence as far as space is concerned. When I 1st installed a JL enclosure in that spot, I was very impressed with the output from that spot. (Physics Cabin gain works well in our cars).

If you want 2 subs, go for either a Well enclosure (Look in the faq for examples) or go for enclosures on both sides.
Pros and Cons:

Well:
Pro's Places subs in the best spot for output. Can Tune phase of output for Imaging easiest. Also allows for up to 15" subs reasonably, and an 18" (Not recommended)

Cons: Not stealth. Takes up a lot of space. T-Tops people really have one choice for this.

Cubby hole mounted:
Pro's: Space. Uses basically dead space in the car. Very Stealth.

Cons: Limited to 10" and 12" (Must fabricate). Not much Air space to work with and limits what subs to use. Can sound Peaky.

Good thread. Good topic to discuss.

Porting can be used to either lower the Fs (increase the extension of the freq range) or can be used for large gains. Just saying 3 dB is not that good of a rule of thumb. Most manufacture specs for port enclosure (Bass Reflex) is around 2-5 dB gain. Not bad.

Down side of porting is that you Need a Subsonic filter, or be really carefull what you play. Playing Freq's below the tunning frequency will make the Suspension system loose control. There-for, there is uncontrolled excussion that will damage the speaker in the long run or imediatly.



This alpine amp has a subsonic filter on the sub channel so that part is taken care of. I have a lot of faith in Alpine equipment unlike most people here who think 120db of sound in a car cabin is quiet.

LOL. When you use Subs at a high level for a while, 120 dB does start to sound weak. That is a bad sign as it is hearing loss.

I like Alpine equipment. They are 1 of the Few contants in this business. Good choice and you won't be disappointed. I have also used the F450 myself. It's a good Multi-channel to power a whole system.

1 Port 12" or 15" in the well with that amp will have some good/great output. Expect in the neighborhood of 135-148 dB. Prety loud. Only thing to remember is that a Ported enclosure is harder to get right and you should call the manufacture after you get a total air space for what port size to use.

I added a link for a free Box program that is really good.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3068719&postcount=20

I worked with another Mod here (Carmaholic) and helped him desgin a great sounding Ported home speaker that is still impressing him. It also worked really well against the Information I have for my SPL car the is still sitting ( :bang: ). It has a good help menu and you'll start to see how different Parameters (Theil-Small) work. That can help you find out what is good and what is hype. Really usefull tool to help with what you are doing. You'll also learn some more about Sound physics.

IF you want to try out a ported enclosure, they can sound great and use less power for the same output, and uses less $$$ as far as needing another speaker too.

If you are sure 120 is about what you want, go for the Stealth box w/a 10" sub. It really is one of the Best options car audio wise for us. It will make around 120-130 with a good/great sub. Look into what others have used, and what works in about 0.6-0.75 ft^3. I'll try to dig up some choices for ya, but others here put out some good ideas. Diamond, RF, OZ, Adire, Focal, JL, MTX, JBL, MB Quart, Elemental Design, Image Dynamics. There are alot of choices.

If you like SQ, I'll recommend Diamond, MB Quart, Adire, Focal, Dynaudio. And I would recommend a Sealed enclosure over a ported. A single 10 will not be overpowering the rest of the system and should blend pretty well with the rest of the system.

If you like SQ, I'll recommend Diamond, MB Quart, Adire, Focal, Dynaudio.

Very interesting that you left out IDQ, Oz Matrix elite, JL W6v2 and eD Ov2. Not that the brands you mention don't have great SQ, but I believe any one of these can be labelled (and can compete) as a high SQ speaker as well.

Very interesting that you left out IDQ, Oz Matrix elite, JL W6v2 and eD Ov2. Not that the brands you mention don't have great SQ, but I believe any one of these can be labelled (and can compete) as a high SQ speaker as well.

True. I said there are alot of brands out there to choose from. I gave brand options. Not model. I'm not getting into that here. I like what I like. Others like a different sound.

It's all about perception. The brands I listed in both paragraphs have good speakers. Some to me are better than others in MY mind. Reviews are also like that too. Some people have different opinions on what is good and what is not.


Ok. Since we are debatting SQ Subs, what makes for an "Accurate" Sound reproduction? What things would you look for?

I'll leave the question for now. Just think about what makes for a Good SQ sub.

Also, a KEY factor in acurate bass reproduction, is the Mid-bass drivers. Most musical information that comes in the sub region is Harmonics based. Usually only Large Drums, Gongs, Pipe Organs reproduce in the 100 Hz and down.

i had a single power acoustik 15 mofo 3000 watts rms with the 3000 watt class d matching amp and this was so much better than the 2 twelve inch set up i had before talk about deafening low bass.

I suppose I should make it known that I have sold A LOT of Alpine equipment in my years in car audio. Stating that their power output on sub channels or sub amps is for the majority weak, is simply that, and should not be taken that I mean the amp(s) suck. I own a F450 and have sold MANY of them. They have their place.

The point I was getting to was that you were talking about 2 HX210s which require more power than your amp can output. Maybe a single HX2 would be your best bet.

I have built many many SPL and SQ vehicles in the past and PREFER an SQ vehicle over any "loud" system. My own cars never have more than one sub in them, but I make sure everything is optimized. If a woofer needs 250 watts RMS power, I make sure I have atleast a clean 300.

Do whatever makes you happy, since you are using that amp for your system, do yourself a favor and get a sub that is very efficient with power. Sorry for rambling, I just want to make it clear that your amp is o.k. for your setup, just make sure you use the right sub configuration for it. A stealth box in the back would sound awesome by the way, I have sold/installed atleast 3 JL Stealth Boxes in F-bodys in the past and the customers have been nothing by impressed with them. Good Luck!

I've used these Fosgate 12s in a sealed box with an old Fosgate 250.2 amp and they produced more than enough sound to keep me happy. With a ported box I am sure they will be fine. Some day I can see myself selling the 5 channel and getting a 4 channel with separate sub amp, but not anytime soon. This alpine will fill my needs for a while. Funding is tight now, but who knows what I may do in the future.

What subs would you consider to be more efficient than the HX2 12's I currently own? I've looked at some JL Audio 12's but they're a bit pricey for my current budget.

I have built many many SPL and SQ vehicles in the past and PREFER an SQ vehicle over any "loud" system. My own cars never have more than one sub in them, but I make sure everything is optimized. If a woofer needs 250 watts RMS power, I make sure I have atleast a clean 300.

Do whatever makes you happy, since you are using that amp for your system, do yourself a favor and get a sub that is very efficient with power. Sorry for rambling, I just want to make it clear that your amp is o.k. for your setup, just make sure you use the right sub configuration for it. A stealth box in the back would sound awesome by the way, I have sold/installed atleast 3 JL Stealth Boxes in F-bodys in the past and the customers have been nothing by impressed with them. Good Luck!

I am mostly a SQ guy. The last system I built for myself was the SPL car. I never had one for myself and I wanted to try that route out. SQ competition was getting old for me, and I liked the Absolute judging that come with SPL. You either hit the # or you didn't. no perception biasing there.

You are SO correct about the "Clean" ouput. Distortion is the #1 killer of audio equipment. Both Speaker and AMP based.

Usually, a Sealed enclosure is the best bet for SQ applications. Usually is stressed here.

What you want in a SQ sub is:
Good decay characteristics. This is means you want an efficient Motor structure and a nice compliant suspension set-up. Subs with a higher Qm (mechanical Q) help with this.

Light cones. Treated paper and other light weight STIFF cone material is good to have. It allows the sub to act quickly and makes it easier to control. Dampening in an Amplifier helps with this also.

Effieciency: Shows that the speaker is well designed, but is not an end all spec here. It comes from the complete system of the speaker. The effieciency of the design.

excursion: Allows the subwoofer to play lower frequencies.

This is not everything. Let me do some reading and I'll get back with you on some other points to look for.

I'm just putting info out there. I'm not going to recommend anyone one sub for you. The RF will work. Especially if you are tight on $$$. (Who isn't)

I've been digging around and found JL Audio 12W3V2 subs that I could probably afford if I sold my Fosgates off to someone around here. Their recommended RMS power range is pretty close to what this Alpine can throw out. Would I be better off with a cheaper sub that I can get into the recommended power or with a higher price sub that would end up being under the recommended power range?

ANyway... I've decided to ditch the fosgates and get a JL 12W3 or 12W6 and run it by itself. I'm going to use a good chunk of the back seat for the one sub then use the remaining area for an amp mount. If it turns out like I want I should have what appears to be a giant speaker box with hidden sub and amp. Thanks for the advice guys!

JL is an excellent choice over the fosgate sub

Just when I thought I was done.. I have been considering a Kicker L5 solobaric instead of the JL 12W3...

I've run two 12s and I've run one 12. With the right sub you can run 1 and not miss the other. Right now I have 1 MTX 12 in the car and it sounds ok. I'm going to be swaping it out for a JL soon. I used to run a JBL 12 and I thought it sounded really good in my truck but the system in the truck was a lot better than what I have in the car.

Lets look at TWO things that are very very important in your case....

1) Efficiency of subwoofer
2) Available Power

Kicker L series woofers are UNefficient with power

JL Audio woofers, with the exception of the W7s are very efficient

In your situation, go with a woofer that is matched to your amp, not one that requires more than what you have available.

I would say go with the W6v2 and call it good. They sound awesome and will get the job done.

Get one if you ever have to haul anything, 2 if you don't. I have one JLw3 and it sounds great to me. Just get something that your amp works with and you will be fine

Thanks guys... I'll look for a good deal on a 12W3V2-2D, I can't find any single ones on ebay, only pairs. Do you guys know of a place that has ebay-like pricing?