Automotive News, Media & Press - New GTO coming

http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060302/FREE/60302001/1039

pulled from that article:


Contrary to rumors, however, Lutz said General Motors is not planning to revive the Pontiac Firebird. “No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car,” he said.

Production of today’s Pontiac GTO is planned to end in September, leaving GM with two years before the new Zeta-based model arrives in North American showrooms. As with the recently unveiled Chevrolet Camaro, it is expected to carry a more retro-inspired design with cues from earlier GTO models. Today’s model started life as the Holden Monaro and was never envisaged to carry the GTO badge, leading to complaints from North American buyers that it lacks any visual connection with the original.

Exactly what I stated in the "09 Firebird thread." I said that GM should tie retro cues to the GTO in order for them to be successful with it. It's what is selling right now. The new Mustang is selling like hotcakes and the retro looking Challenger concept got such good remarks. And that's cool that their not completly getting rid of the GTO. I thought they were, but if they plan to start it back up in '08 that's cool. I hope it helps revive the Pontiac name, because I would hate to see Pontiac go. I hope Buick and GMC goes before Pontiac.

:fluffy:

...I can only dream what it will look like. Hopefully something sweet looking!!

krfan1

if it looked like a 67 id have to change pants after seeing it. though the 68 style wouldnt be too bad.

Good news!

is any else sick of Bob Lutz?

Bob Lutz is a fucking asshole "we are not going to do that car" Probably just as much history in the Trans Am as the GTO & he is calling it that car..This bastard is 74yrs old, when is he going to croak so someone else can run the show. I hate to be negative but this guy is old & senile..

Bob Lutz is a fucking asshole "we are not going to do that car" Probably just as much history in the Trans Am as the GTO & he is calling it that car..This bastard is 74yrs old, when is he going to croak so someone else can run the show. I hate to be negative but this guy is old & senile..
:werd:
The T/A has just as much, if not more, "heritige" than the Camaro or GTO

OK so Lutz is a Putz. And, the Firebird still does not appear to be rising from theashes as many of us would like. But what gets me the most about GM is how FAR BEHIND this whole retro and muscle car thing they have gotten.

I think this whole delay of half a decade or longer is a sign of GM's biggest problem, that they just can't seem to get their heads out of the asses long enough to put the burners on this thing.

Think about it...


By 2009 if the Camaro returns with retro queues and all do you think Joe and Mary Public are still gonna be as excited about these muscle cars. And, with gas prices rising and the American dollar falling wouldn't it make sense that we are gonna see a 1970 real soon where the government cracks down on big engines. Man, I do not have any faith in GM at all. What faith I had is gone.

FWIW, I am gonna keep my WS6 is great shape and my next car will be something else entirely. I think I will consider some of Chrysler's stuff. Or maybe I will get that White with Blue race stripes Mustang GT, I like that.

:ripped:


The only part I found as good news was that it may be built in the USA:

Despite being developed in Australia, however, there are strong indications the next GTO will be built in North America. “Whether the GTO will be built in Australia [as the current Pontiac GTO is] will largely depend on the [U.S. vs. Australian dollar] exchange rate at the time,” said Lutz. He added, “With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the U.S., it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America.

OK so Lutz is a Putz. And, the Firebird still does not appear to be rising from theashes as many of us would like. But what gets me the most about GM is how FAR BEHIND this whole retro and muscle car thing they have gotten.

I think this whole delay of half a decade or longer is a sign of GM's biggest problem, that they just can't seem to get their heads out of the asses long enough to put the burners on this thing.

Think about it...


By 2009 if the Camaro returns with retro queues and all do you think Joe and Mary Public are still gonna be as excited about these muscle cars. And, with gas prices rising and the American dollar falling wouldn't it make sense that we are gonna see a 1970 real soon where the government cracks down on big engines. Man, I do not have any faith in GM at all. What faith I had is gone.

FWIW, I am gonna keep my WS6 is great shape and my next car will be something else entirely. I think I will consider some of Chrysler's stuff. Or maybe I will get that White with Blue race stripes Mustang GT, I like that.

:ripped:


The only part I found as good news was that it may be built in the USA:

Despite being developed in Australia, however, there are strong indications the next GTO will be built in North America. “Whether the GTO will be built in Australia [as the current Pontiac GTO is] will largely depend on the [U.S. vs. Australian dollar] exchange rate at the time,” said Lutz. He added, “With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the U.S., it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America.

Right on man, GM's falling too far behind. My faith has totally diminished.

I'm keeping a hold of my WS6 and I'm going to start on my signature projects in a couple years. I'm not real happy with a lot of the products coming out now-a-days so I'm just gonna stay with what I got and screw the new stuff.

I think it's kind of funny how some people get so worked up about them confirming again that they have no intentions to bring back a car. In fact, I recall no instance of upper GM stating it would come back, just many outright confirmations it wouldn't. I would love to see it come back, but I do like the other options they are providing/planning on providing.

When pushed on whether GM was thinking about bringing back the El Camino off the Zeta platform, Lutz beamed with enthusiasm. “The kids in the company, myself included, would love to do another El Camino, but the grown-ups amongst us don’t share that way of thinking,” he said. “It would be fairly simple. We’d only have to put a Chevrolet face on the Holden Ute [a car-like pickup sold in Australia]. The building blocks are there.”That, for instance gives me much hope. I'd rather see the El Camino return with a GTO and one f-body than just 2 f-bodies. Also, I think you guys are reading into the quote of "that car" incorrectly. "That car" doesn't imply scorn unless you spin it with such emotion. Since there isn't a recording of Lutz's comment, I choose to give him the benefit of it simply meaning that car. If you look at what he has done and said, he is obviously aware of the heritage of the Firebird nameplate, as well as the heritage of the Camaro, GTO, El Camino, Corvette, etc.

People have a tendancy to put all their dissatisfaction, malice, frustration, etc. on a figure head, and even though Lutz is not the cause of most of this, he's a convenient figure head. Some of you should put your energy into something more constructive than trying to defame one of the guys that has made many attempts to improve the character and product lines of the GM brand. Solid critiques are great, but many of you are simply un- or (worse) misinformed.

I agree they are running behind, though they are not trying to do full retro, but modern/futuristic with some retro cues. By coming out with the evolution of retro, they may be on time upon release. Much of the styling of the Camaro concept was taken not from previous Camaros, but from the aerospace industry (planes), which is where much of the inspiration for early cars came from originally (in addition to animals, especially fish/birds).As far as gas milage, if you haven't already discovered your LS1 getts better/equal mpg to honda/toyota v6's you probably should take a look. The LS2, as well as some other engines are getting better, and with a A6 addition to the M6, the autos are right in line with the manuals.

Ok, so what's the business case for the GTO, (now that it's going to be a Camaro under the skin) they could just as easily bring back the firebird (a car that way outsold the current GTO), if they don't want the bird to grab sales from the camaro, (why they care I have no idea, the money all goes to GM corporate in the end) put a completely different look on it, the camaro could be the retro design, the bird could go more futuristic.
Saying that the camaro isn't retro, c'mon, they parked a first gen in the design studio, and took ALOT of styling cues from it (the designer of the new camaro even said that) look at the ip, a complete rip off of a 69 camaro, down to the aux gauges down in front of the shifter
GM is like a ship that's lost its rudder they have the potential to build great cars, but they run around like idiots, and bean count the cars to death, their dealers suck, with the outrageous markups on the new stuff, and a shitty attitude, right now except for the vette, GM has nothing in its line up that interests me at all, if I was shoping for a new car today, I'm afraid the DCX would likely be the brand I'd buy (and since I get a substantial discount on GM products, through work that's saying something)
Another thing, why the hell is it taking so long to say yes we will build the camaro, they're screwing around with "we're treating this like an approved program BS just announce you're going to build it, the average car buyer doesn't give a rats ass what chassis it's on, or what factory is going to build it, quit with the tap dancing BS and tell us if it's going to be built or not

...GM is like a ship that's lost its rudder...

I like that analogy, but I would liken GM to a submarine with a really expensive set of screened doors.

I think it's kind of funny how some people get so worked up about them confirming again that they have no intentions to bring back a car. In fact, I recall no instance of upper GM stating it would come back, just many outright confirmations it wouldn't. I would love to see it come back, but I do like the other options they are providing/planning on providing.

That, for instance gives me much hope. I'd rather see the El Camino return with a GTO and one f-body than just 2 f-bodies. Also, I think you guys are reading into the quote of "that car" incorrectly. "That car" doesn't imply scorn unless you spin it with such emotion. Since there isn't a recording of Lutz's comment, I choose to give him the benefit of it simply meaning that car. If you look at what he has done and said, he is obviously aware of the heritage of the Firebird nameplate, as well as the heritage of the Camaro, GTO, El Camino, Corvette, etc.

People have a tendancy to put all their dissatisfaction, malice, frustration, etc. on a figure head, and even though Lutz is not the cause of most of this, he's a convenient figure head. Some of you should put your energy into something more constructive than trying to defame one of the guys that has made many attempts to improve the character and product lines of the GM brand. Solid critiques are great, but many of you are simply un- or (worse) misinformed.

I agree they are running behind, though they are not trying to do full retro, but modern/futuristic with some retro cues. By coming out with the evolution of retro, they may be on time upon release. Much of the styling of the Camaro concept was taken not from previous Camaros, but from the aerospace industry (planes), which is where much of the inspiration for early cars came from originally (in addition to animals, especially fish/birds).As far as gas milage, if you haven't already discovered your LS1 getts better/equal mpg to honda/toyota v6's you probably should take a look. The LS2, as well as some other engines are getting better, and with a A6 addition to the M6, the autos are right in line with the manuals.
:werd:
No one ever said officially they were bringing back the Firebird. Hell, they won't even commit to saying they are definitely building the Camaro.
I'm glad there will be an all-new goat. I think the current one never got its due because of its Aussie roots and the fact it was based off an 8 year old design. The GTO is one car where retro design makes sense, its entire reason for being is to rekindle the 60s for its buyers. I don't see it being a car kids will buy like a Mustang. Its more for older adults, and they want a car that reminds them of a 60s GTO, not a modern interpretation.

I'd love to see a 21st century El Camino! It probably wouldn't sell at all, but I would get one waaaay before I'd consider a SSR. But I would bet El Camino owners would bitch that it didn't look like their El Caminos, big upright grille, huge chrome bumpers, column shift, etc.. :jest:

nothing I'd rather have than my WS6, but as far as the firebird having more heritage than the GTO? Hard to have more heritage than the 1st muscle car. it started the era we all enjoy.

^just what i was going to say...

Ok, so what's the business case for the GTO, (now that it's going to be a Camaro under the skin) they could just as easily bring back the firebird (a car that way outsold the current GTO), if they don't want the bird to grab sales from the camaro, (why they care I have no idea, the money all goes to GM corporate in the end) put a completely different look on it, the camaro could be the retro design, the bird could go more futuristic.
Saying that the camaro isn't retro, c'mon, they parked a first gen in the design studio, and took ALOT of styling cues from it (the designer of the new camaro even said that) look at the ip, a complete rip off of a 69 camaro, down to the aux gauges down in front of the shifter
GM is like a ship that's lost its rudder they have the potential to build great cars, but they run around like idiots, and bean count the cars to death, their dealers suck, with the outrageous markups on the new stuff, and a shitty attitude, right now except for the vette, GM has nothing in its line up that interests me at all, if I was shoping for a new car today, I'm afraid the DCX would likely be the brand I'd buy (and since I get a substantial discount on GM products, through work that's saying something)
Another thing, why the hell is it taking so long to say yes we will build the camaro, they're screwing around with "we're treating this like an approved program BS just announce you're going to build it, the average car buyer doesn't give a rats ass what chassis it's on, or what factory is going to build it, quit with the tap dancing BS and tell us if it's going to be built or notFor one thing the new GTO will be nothing like the current one, except in power. You say the Firebird should be completely different looking from the Camaro, but that would be contrary to its heritage, which was always as the sister car to the Camaro. Making a completely different looking car is exactly what they are talking about (GTO), and the reason the current version hasn't been as much success as some would want is multifaceted -

1. Production limitations
2. Export limitations
3. Outdated (though IMO stylish) skin

The old GTO, however, was very successful, and a new, completely different look for it, as well as increased production, could be extremely good (Oh, yeah, and as mentioned, it has arguably more heritage than the Firebird).

Yes, the Camaro has many design influences from the '69, but the designers themselves have also said they looked at aircraft while designing too, and drew inspiration from a number of sources. In fact, if you look at the 2 at the same time, it is obvious the concept is not fully retro, but a modern design with a retro theme:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/widget350/in.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/widget350/8d5e7f2a.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y160/widget350/three.jpg

Frankly, I don't care what you buy, and I don't have any motivation to persuade you that the Camaro concept isn't retro, or that the GTO is a car with vast heritage which just needs to have a design worthy of it's name, or that the Firebird shouldn't exist unless it looks like a radical version of the Camaro (which is essentially how it's always presented itself). I do appreciate the colorful analogy of GM to a ship, and a few years ago could have found myself thinking the same, but now I think they are in good repair and charting a course for home.

I do appreciate the colorful analogy of GM to a ship, and a few years ago could have found myself thinking the same, but now I think they are in good repair and charting a course for home.


Then I have just three words for you: "Iceberg, right ahead!"

We'll see...though what is the proverbial iceberg of which you speak?

Then I have just three words for you: "Iceberg, right ahead!"
:judge: :judge: :judge: :judge:

History kind of tells the story....

GTO production 1964-1974...........then 2004-2006
Firebird production 1967-2002

The GTO had a 30 year lapse. Now tell me which one has more meaning to the buying public? The Firebird survived the 70's, and in fact had it's highest sales in the late seventies (more than likely thanks in part to the Smokey & the Bandit movie). I'm no second-gen die-hard fan by no means, but I think the facts tell alot.

Either way, we have no control over what they produce again....be it GTO or Firebird. We can control what they continue to build though by what we buy.

History kind of tells the story....

GTO production 1964-1974...........then 2004-2006
Firebird production 1967-2002

The GTO had a 30 year lapse. Now tell me which one has more meaning to the buying public? The Firebird survived the 70's, and in fact had it's highest sales in the late seventies (more than likely thanks in part to the Smokey & the Bandit movie). I'm no second-gen die-hard fan by no means, but I think the facts tell alot.

Either way, we have no control over what they produce again....be it GTO or Firebird. We can control what they continue to build though by what we buy.

Straight up Y2K! :judge:

The GTO died because the Firebird was more desireable, AND because it was cheaper to make (the A body died, the F body did not).

This tells us 2 things - that cars sharing a platform do NOT compete against each other, and that the GTO just wasn't popular enough. (and then we can also look at Smokey and the Bandit and Knight Rider - there's a *reason* they chose Trans Ams. :cool: )

The only reason the GTO came back is because it's acknowledged that Pontiac IS the Performance Division, and thus needed a RWD V8 vehicle. Nostalgia was and is big, and it made more sense to revive a popular nameplate than to make something totally new, from a marketing perspective, and the Monaro was the perfect platform. (and it really did match the '64 well when ya really consider it)

Of course, the Firebird only died because the plant was shut down and they couldn't legally use the name becuse they decided to breach the contract. It was just to get out of Canada, or at least out of htat plant and contract. The cars were selling just fine, even in spite of their effort to kill sales of the platform.

Meanwhile, the GTO had marketing support behind it, and no stigma of live axles, and rednecks, like the F-Body did. A clean slate with better fit and finish, better interior, IRS, and was truly a cut-rate 3-Series.

But it only just managed to about meet the 2002 V8 Firebird sales. Imagine that. lol

The new GTO, though a great car, flopped. The people who DID buy them and like them (at least the several that I've spoken to), do NOT want (or trust) a GMNA built GTO. They want a Holden built GTO or nothing.

The GTO may have started the Muscle Car craze, but it bowed out long ago and missed out on it's semi-rebirth. It's a "me too" now. It's heritage is ONLY in the past, and short lived at that (a whole, what, 10 years?)

It's too little too late to bring it back *again*. What matters is the Mustang. And by proxy, it's competitors. The Challenger is coming back and GM needs more than just the camaro to fight them both off. The Firebird is the rightful twin of that platform, and it can be produced (and sold) for next to nothing. There is NO reason not to do it. (while putting the GTO on a camaro platform is akin to making it FWD or 4-door - disgusting sacrilidge)

So basically Putz will be chasing a lukewarm market by shaking off established customers. Brilliant Bob. :eyes: I knew that promotion that was supposed to "promote him out of the way" would be nothing but bad news.

The Firebird IS Pontiac Performance. Has been since at least '75. It's remained current and fresh, and grew out of pure drag racing only as US tastes have changed. It is Pontiac. It would be the perfect fit for the V8 performance in the new Pontiac stable, next to the Solstice at the low end.

And while I'm on a rant here - If the GTO is supposed to be a 3-series competitor, can anyone seriously, without taking a hit off the crack pipe, and with a straight face, *seriously* think that the 3-Series buyers would consider ANYTHING that was built on the camaro platform? Much less in the US to boot.

And let's say they hit their target of $25G (that I hear they wanted to do the '04 GTO for). That's not 3-Series money. You can't achieve the fittment and interior quality needed for that segment for $25Grand. Nevermind that competing with BMW is Cadillac's job.

The BMW 3-Series has 2 engine levels, 2 body styles, and comes in AWD as well as a high end performance version.

Let's ignore the Sedan, and multiple engines, so forget even the 325. I know a former 330i owner that bought an 04 GTO. He loves the power, and is surprised at how much better hte fittment is than he feared, but said that only with a suspension rebuild was he able to even approach the handling and feel of his stock (and worn out) bimmer.

To go after that market, you need to go upscale. Make the car big enough for 5 adults, with plenty of luggage space. Quality interior components (aluminum, leather, and selective use of plastics - all high quality). High level of fit and finish, inside and out. Onstar, high end stereo, an for the base, low end, or no, sat nav. Oh and an optional iPod cradle, as well as a stock 1/8" stereo input jack. A suspension tuned for comfort first with an eye to handling, a rear set up for mileage, and a choice of flappy padle gear box (hooked to a 5 speed auto), or a T-56. Use an LS2 with a mild cam, mild PCM tune, and mild exhaust. Have a target base price of at least $35G.

Then to go after the M3, don't mimic, go more everything. High end sat nav added to the list, as well as split zone climate control, and maybe even DVD in the head unit. More sound deadening, wider rims/tires, suspension focused on handling first, comfort second, a rear for performance, and at least a quicker shifting flappy paddle gear box, if not an extra gear tacked on to it, and a higher quality short throw shifter for the manual. Combined with a hotter cam, PCM tune, and more free flowing exhaust, it would sound meaner, have much more power, and handle better and run quicker. The new Judge. Shoot for a price in the mid 40's to low 50's. (M3 competitor remember)

But then what? A gap from $20G to the 40's for performance Pontiacs? Nearly $40G just for a Pontiac RWD V8? That's a large gap. How can it be filled?

Oh, I know! The Firebird! No "base model" necessary. Either drop the Forumula name and make all "Firebirds" Formulas, *or*, have no "Firebird" only, name and go with only the Formula and Trans Am. Formula (or just Firebird if htey are all Formulas) is the budget racer. Stripped out, set up for drag racing. Something to get out there and blow the doors off the Ricers and the Mustangs and Challengers. The Trans Am, what the Firebird and Formula aspire to - The Ultimate Evolution of the concept, is the high end model (as always). Different look/spoiler/rims. No options, everything as standard - except tranny, T-Top or hardtop, and perhaps CD changer or no. Not optioned to the level of the GTO however - no satnav, no Onstar, no iPod links, etc. Suspension and rear end set up for road course racing (max handling).

Perfect.

Build all 3 to order only, not in advance, and keep the cost down even further. If all are build on Zeta, then the cost for them is negligible as the hard work (design, and EPA and crash testing) is already done. It's just cosmetic at that point. The exception being an AWD Judge option if it's desired to go after the 3-series in full.

Sell a million of them, or sell 100. Doesn't matter. Build to order, and minimal costs (for design and panel production) means virutally no chance of financial loss for the company, and they grab 4 markets with 1 body. (hey, kinda like the Chrysler LS platform)

Putz isn't smart enough to do that though. He's meticulously steering Pontiac toward it's demise, no matter what the cost. It's not just "Firebird" that makes him turn up his nose. It's the Arrowhead and everything behind it.

GM is not likely to surive with him or those like him, on board.

I think GM is dead, from a car enthusiast point of view only the Vette is still there and even that its starting to get pricey for a lot of folks to reach. Insisting on continuing to build a car with such a bad start (from a sales point of view) its almost retarded. I will look into Dodge/Chrysler and Ford for my next car.

Everytime that old fart Lutz opens his mouth GM losses more potential byuers, its fucking pathetic.

We'll see...though what is the proverbial iceberg of which you speak?

Bob Lutz :jest:

Actually he's the captain that orders "all ahead full" knowing the iceberg is directly ahead.

There are quite a few icebergs in GM's path. Bob, weak products, the UAW, etc.

HPP, I cant believe I just read all that. your fingers must hurt. All I can comment on is my own thoughts on this subject..I grew up when GTO's were dead, and like I said, LOVE my WS6. But when I think classic muscle car, I think 64-67 GTO, not firebird. again, my opinion, but in my book that is heritage. and gm could have just as easily killed off the fbody back then had they made it as hideous as the 1974 GTO's.
that being said, gm is headed the way of the dinosaur...extinction.

Meanwhile, the GTO had marketing support behind it, and no stigma of live axles, and rednecks, like the F-Body did.

Hopefully, the new GTO will be treated the same way and will have lighter weight, more aggressive looks, and lower MSRP. No stigma of live axles and rednecks is the way to go. But I do like live axles.

I don't mind there not being a bird, I just hope they get the GTO right this time or I am buying a Challenger.

Death bell for pontiac.The 04-06 didn't sell and now thay want to redesign the car and lose money,brilliant!

If the GTO is supposed to be a 3-series competitor, can anyone seriously, without taking a hit off the crack pipe, and with a straight face, *seriously* think that the 3-Series buyers would consider ANYTHING that was built on the camaro platform? Much less in the US to boot.

Pontiac couldn't build a serious competitor for the 3 series if BMW built it for them. So hopefully, no, the GTO was not supposed to be a 3 series competitor unless there was some hard pipe hitting going on at GM. I was never a BMW fan, but I can admit when something is out-classed.

On a different note: I've heard many people mention the success of the Mustang and correlate the notion that a market exists for rear wheel drive pony car type vehicles. I have the sneaky suspicion that there only exists a market for Mustangs. We shall see if that market truly exists if/when the Camaro and Challenger come back. I have serious doubts that either car will sell half as well as the Mustang.

It's kind of interesting that some here are saying that the new GTO will a rebodied Camaro when the truth is the exact opposite. The zeta platform, developed by Holden, was intended for the next GTO all along....and as stated in this release the GTO program was never in fact cancelled only delayed. Three years ago GM stated that the GTO would be produced in OZ for only three years then the next version GTO would be produced in the US. That's exatly what is happening with the GTO. While the Camaro will come with both a V6 and V8 and will be targeted price-wise to be mass produced to compete with the Mustang I would guess that yes the GTO will be made a little more upscale with only a V8 to go after the BMW 3 series and G35. By the way yes those were the three cars I considered when I bought mine as were they the cars considered by many 2004 buyers. What killed the 2004 GTO sales was the announcement of the upgrade to the LS2 for the identical price and the fact that the first 2004's didn't arrive in the US until January. That created a very small window to sell the 2004s. Oh and then there was GM's marketing of the GTO...or lack of it.

HPP, I cant believe I just read all that. your fingers must hurt. All I can comment on is my own thoughts on this subject..I grew up when GTO's were dead, and like I said, LOVE my WS6. But when I think classic muscle car, I think 64-67 GTO, not firebird. again, my opinion, but in my book that is heritage. and gm could have just as easily killed off the fbody back then had they made it as hideous as the 1974 GTO's.
that being said, gm is headed the way of the dinosaur...extinction.

The Firebird was never a muscle car, it was a pony car, so not thinking of it when you think of muscle cars doesn't mean anything about heritage. Being around for 3 times as long automatically makes it a more important part of our culture. Add to that Smokey and the Bandit and Knight Rider, and it becomes even more clear that it has more heritage than the GTO.

Either way, Muscle Cars no longer matter. The Mustang is what matters. Muscle Cars had a brief revival of popularity, but pony cars are the point now.

If this were not true, we'd see the A-Body come back. Chevelle/GTO. That's the only way to do it right. Anything else demands Putz's head on a platter.

Either way, we have no control over what they produce again....be it GTO or Firebird. We can control what they continue to build though by what we buy.

Sad but true...

As much as it sucks I dont see a Trans Am coming back anytime soon. GM if you recall your history had a hell of a time keeping the Trans Am name and had to pay alot just to use it. Do some history on the name and im sure you will see it. But they still have the rights to Firebird, Firehawk, WS6, Formula so who knows. I think the GTO coming back is a good move for GM. GM is not going down there actually moving in the right direction with there cars and quailty is going up and they have good cars coming out. They didnt say the Firebird was never coming back just not yet.

The Firebird was never a muscle car, it was a pony car, so not thinking of it when you think of muscle cars doesn't mean anything about heritage. Being around for 3 times as long automatically makes it a more important part of our culture. Add to that Smokey and the Bandit and Knight Rider, and it becomes even more clear that it has more heritage than the GTO.

Either way, Muscle Cars no longer matter. The Mustang is what matters. Muscle Cars had a brief revival of popularity, but pony cars are the point now.

If this were not true, we'd see the A-Body come back. Chevelle/GTO. That's the only way to do it right. Anything else demands Putz's head on a platter.
fair enough, the fbody is indeed a pony car, and lasted much longer..but I look at it like this, George Washington....Franklin D Roosevelt. you think of presidents, who do you think of? G.W. started the whole thing, FDR was in office longer. Odd analogy I know, but its the best way I can get my opinion across.

you think of presidents, who do you think of?

Thomas Jefferson.

Washington gets all the press, but he didn't do much in office. His real contributions came prior to his term. But really, you can't separate the founders and just pick one out. They're a complete set. (kinda like the Bill of Rights actually.... lol)


I'd bet most people don't think of the GTO when they think of muscle cars, there's too many to choose from. Myself, being a GM guy and everything, am more likely to think of a Charger first, then maybe a 442, then a Charger Daytona. GTO is up there, but along with Super Bee, Cyclone Spoiler, Chevelle, etc.

But my point was that Muscle Cars are over. They never truly came back, and they don't matter anymore. But more to the point, when people *do* think "GTO", they don't think "Monaro", and they won't think "Zeta". Rather they think of '67s with stacked headlights and early Judges. BIG cars (today) with even bigger engines, blocky and muscular, room for the whole family to run 13's all day long, sounding like a demon's war cry.

The Firebird was *never* over. It was always current, always fresh. Even with GM's active attempt to kill the sales by stagnating it, it was still fresh. The 1998 design looks new even today, even despite not changing at all for 5 years in production. Hell, the 1993 design still looks current.

Just imagine if they had marketing support.......

I don't know why so many here look at the current GTO as a BMW 3-series competitor. Maybe in price they compete, but in vehicle dynamics they are way different. The 3-series is small and relatively light, very nimble handling. The GTO is a mid size car and would seat 5 if not for the rear seat configuration, much bigger, certainly alot heavier than the BMW. Its much closer to a 5 series than the smaller 3. No one wanting a 3 series would consider a GTO for those reasons. The GTO's market is narrowly defined by those who have 3 series cash but want to buy American, or had a GTO in the past, or want something different than a 3 series or a G35. I think the GTO can still be successful. I think it needs to be pushed into the direction of a luxury grand tourer like the 60s Grand Prix or Buick Riviera. In fact, if Pontiac's replacement for the current Grand Prix sedan is renamed G8, they should call this car a Grand Prix (or maybe Catalina) because that's what it essentially is. The neo-GTO shouldn't be viewed as a muscle car or competitor of the Mustang and Camaro, it should be more upscale. I think that is its only chance for success. Basically its a 2 door 300C competitor. BMW and Mercedes have proven there is a market for upscale 2 doors, GM just has to buid one everyone would want. I think marketing on what they succeed on in the 60s is the key.

As soon as a company decides to build a car to compete with another successful car they have already, at best, took aim at second place. That tends to be the issue when you're an industry follower vs. a leader.

As soon as a company decides to build a car to compete with another successful car they have already, at best, took aim at second place. That tends to be the issue when you're an industry follower vs. a leader.Often-times the competitor surpasses the leader. It depends on whether the goal is to meet the mark set by the leader or to re-establish it. That is exactly why the big 3 are criticized as much as they are. Their competition, none of which has very much in the way of original ideas, has, at least in reputation, surpassed them. This is because they originally established the mark, but did not choose to maintain it. While their competitors came out with "new" designs (as unimaginative as they may be), the big 3 laid dormant, resting "secure" in their past success. I would argue that the actual value of most of these competitors' products did/does not exceed that of the big 3, and now that the sleeping giants are starting to re-awaken, I think others will begin to agree.

:werd:
camaor and GTO the F-body twins. hooray for heritage. :eyes:

nice sig. looks Familiar. Visit camaroz28.com much?
Edit: I agree with Y2k. No Firebird = Me buying Mustang. Can you imagine Yuppies buying Pontiacs, Driving GTOs'?

Or maybe he just wants to take Pontiac in the Chris bangle Direction. Fuck Lutz and the GM board. I hope this New GTo crashes and burns. Then Hopefully Pontiac will be killed so It doesn't have to live with its transsexual self.

No Firebird = Me buying Mustang.
SO if the come out with a camaro and no firebird your still going to buy a stang.

SO if the come out with a camaro and no firebird your still going to buy a stang.

Yes.
Never much love for the Camaro. Trans Am>Mustang>Camaro

SO if the come out with a camaro and no firebird your still going to buy a stang.


What sucks is that even for the Camaro we have to wait until 2009!

:ripped:



There is a lot of disgust with GM since they cancelled the F-Body. And most are not happy with the GTO. So, there are many that are considering Chrysler and Ford since these manufacturers are selling what most would consider "American Muscle".

I think most at this site would not buy a Lexus or BMW since they would rather have something more rugid and tuff. Not too many yuppies here and NO Metrosexuals. The GTO was more a Yuppie design and too close to a Metrosexual design. Just not tuff enough. Give it some Testoserone and it would have sold. Heck the LS1Tech calendar has a GTO for February that is all that and more. Too bad it did not look more like that.

FWIW - I am not trying to bash anyone but these are my thoughts and feelings on the matter.



Jack

Yes.
Never much love for the Camaro. Trans Am>Mustang>Camaro

Totally true. But maybe it should be appended - Trans Am > Formula > Mustang > Challenger > camaro.

And that's being nice about it. lol :biggrinan

Challenger > Trans Am > Mustang > Formula > Camaro. If based solely on looks.

My personal opinion on this. The Camaro and Firebird started together, lived 35 years together and died together. They can't bring one back and not the other. F-bodies are by far my favorite cars of all time. Nothing can replace them to me. It just won't be the same bringing the Camaro back and not having it's partner in crime, the Firebird, by its side. Having the GTO and the Camaro together just doesn't go to well for me. When the new Camaro comes out, I will probably buy one. But it just won't be the same knowing the Firebird won't be on Pontiac's side kicking ass too.

F-bodies for life! :) :burn: