Small Block & Big Block Chevy Specific - SBCvsLS1??

Which way would be cheaper to go? With the LS1 and tuning software, EFI, etc...is it cheaper to just go SBC or will it all be about the same either way?

Which way would be cheaper to go? With the LS1 and tuning software, EFI, etc...is it cheaper to just go SBC or will it all be about the same either way?

More power to be had for less money with the sbc. You have to spend tons of money to make a max effot or even a high power LSx engine. Its easy with the sbc. I've been researching just this question lately.


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i've been debating this lately also.i found a sweet deal on an 86 vette rolling chassis that is strip only with all the goodies but a motor.i thought about getting it and putting in an ls1 since i still have an ls1 block and a set of ported heads and put on an edelbrock intake or a direct port ls6 intake .that would freak these local old school racers out to see a motor like an ls1 in a race car.

More power to be had for less money with the sbc. You have to spend tons of money to make a max effot or even a high power LSx engine. Its easy with the sbc. I've been researching just this question lately.


I agree. I've built both and it's hard to beat the SBC in terms of power to price. The LS1 might do better on MPG but who cares about that anyway. The SBC has such a better sound over the machinegun in a trashcan LS1. Top of the line AFR SBC heads are only $1400 and they now come with LS1 valvetrain componets taking alot of weight off allowing them to rev to LS1 limits.

Give me a H/C SBC AFR heads, Vic Jr and roller setup and it will run all over all but the most extreme LS1 H/C setups and be a few thousand cheaper to boot.

How much lighter is a long block ls1 to a long block sbc?

How much lighter is a long block ls1 to a long block sbc?

Stock for stock the LS1 is going to be alot lighter as it's all aluminum. A stock SBC with iron heads, intake manifolds etc is a heavy BI***. Once aluminum heads, intake headers etc are added it's not too bad.

LS1 shortblock is around 90lbs lighter than a standard iron block.

I have both of them, i got 406, 12.5:1, dart heads and intake, 600 lift cam, 750 carb. My 6.0 is stock botton end patirot heads, ls6 intake and cam and a tune. From what i have heard The 406 is about 450 to the wheel thats throw a manual. I would say that motor gets about 7 mpg. the 6.0 is 400 to the wheel, but that gets about 16 mpg. throw a 4l60e. for about the same price.

How much lighter is a long block ls1 to a long block sbc?

You need to include more than just the long block part, as the LS1 almost always uses a plastic intake, whereas a best case scenario for the SBC is aluminum. And a dressed LS1 weighs about 150 lbs less than an aluminum headed SBC, and almost 200 less than an iron headed SBC :eek2:

I have built a few sbc`s 350s 400s. I looks like you can have a cam only ls1 that runs 11s you cant do that with a sbc unless you go after market heads, that right there will just about buy a 6.0 with the carb intake and ignition. If your using all after market parts then a sbn might be cheaper.

not sure how much power you are looking for but if you ever want to go fi then a sbc would be your best bet because once you get up to about 800whp on a fi ls1 you start pushing water because they only have 4 bolts per cylinder :bang:

I've been debating this also, I have a SBC400 good for about 600FWHP and I have a LS1 (stock 01) that I'm considering building (selling the SBC) but not sure which would be cheaper? Looks like the LS1's can go 500-600FWHP with a good set of heads/cam(hr) intake set-up maybe 383, it's not that easy on a SBC to get 500-600 without solid roller real good heads etc.. Not sure what to do, I guess I gotta price it out!

Just making sure I am on the same page here. Are you guys talking about putting a SBC in an LS1 body or just motor for motor. The reason I ask is I was wonderring what would be the best way to have a 9 second 99 vette. I was thinking of building an LT1 engine or orderring one. We have a LOT of 406 SBCs here that would push the vette into the 9s and I can build one of them very cheap. Comparring to the LT1 build. My question: Are there top end pieces to allow me to put this in the Vette. I want to still drive this thing 3 days a week and to the track. 9 seconds will be with a 250 shot BTW.

I was thinking of building an LT1 engine or orderring one. We have a LOT of 406 SBCs here that would push the vette into the 9s and I can build one of them very cheap. Comparring to the LT1 build.

If you're not building upon an existing engine in a chassis designed for the LT1, there really is no point to building one. The items that make the LT1 an LT1 will cost more, cause more problems, and limit the performance part selection over a traditional SBC. LT1's offer less potential over the SBC, and cost more to build.

Thanks for the reply and I didnt mean to hijack the thread if I am. I read this thread and it made me rethink this project. I still need to know if it is possible without a million dollar custom build budget to put an SBC in a LS1 vehicle.

Just making sure I am on the same page here. Are you guys talking about putting a SBC in an LS1 body or just motor for motor. The reason I ask is I was wonderring what would be the best way to have a 9 second 99 vette. I was thinking of building an LT1 engine or orderring one. We have a LOT of 406 SBCs here that would push the vette into the 9s and I can build one of them very cheap. Comparring to the LT1 build. My question: Are there top end pieces to allow me to put this in the Vette. I want to still drive this thing 3 days a week and to the track. 9 seconds will be with a 250 shot BTW.


I was referring to a LS1 versus a SBC in a F-body, yes.

Stick with the ls1 for sure if its going in a fbody

I like both of them. I know Chevy Hi Performance recently made 523hp with a 383 sbc. It had AFR Eliminator 195's, Victor Jr, 850 carb, and the cam was a 23X/24X comp cams off the shelf grind. Here's the link.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/cams_heads_valvetrain/0612ch_small_block_top_end_swap/


Also, 406ci SBC vs vic jr/carb'ed 402ci LS2. Pretty much make the same power. Both use off the shelf parts again. 580hp each...

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/complete_builds/0701ch_chevy_small_block_engine_dyno_tests/

Bottom line.sbc is old,heavy,and under stress is unreliable.I have been racing for 12 years and sb or bb can make great power if you want to spend all your time rebuilding,tuning, setting valvetrain,finding the blocks with good nickel content,bla bla bla.These lsx motors are wicked and G.M did all the research on how to make wicked power.lets see,my stock unported 243 heads on a stock 346 bottem end made over 430 rwhp.The stock unported lq9 heads flow over 330 cfm@.600.Don't get me wrong the old g.m stuff is cool but if you want to have an easy reliable USABLE and efficient engine that can make sick power without going broke try an lsx.J

I have been racing for 12 years... and sb or bb can make great power if you want to spend all your time rebuilding,tuning, setting valvetrain,finding the blocks with good nickel content,bla bla bla... if you want to have an easy reliable USABLE and efficient engine that can make sick power without going broke try an lsx.J

And in those 12 years you've still yet to realize that even though the prices on the LSx stuff are dropping, you still can't come anywhere close to the HP/dollar value of the SBC (it costs more just to enter the LSx platform). And SBCs have proven themselves to be much more reliable than the LSx's have. Sure the LSx responds to bolt-ons and cams better - but it does so at a cost. Once the modding gets heavy (more cubes, aftermarket heads, BIG cams, etc) the SBC takes the advantage.

In the end, all of your LSx merits are invalid points due to the fact that the SBC has been taken further in every realm than the LSx EVER will.

If you want power with the least amount of money, forget SBC or LSX, build a BBC.

I bought a used 421 Dart engine with 18 degree heads for under $10,000 complete without carb ( including fogger ) Ran 9.22 @ 157 on its first pass with a small shot in it. The engine is very reliable and has propelled my car to 8.30's @ over 165mph without any issues. I am now building and LSX engine and in order to achieve the same performance level I am already over the $20,000 mark and climbing. You want to go really fast and have a limited budget?? SBC is the only choice!

Sure the lsx costs more but the question was sbc vs lsx.kind of like cassette vs cd.Right now if money is not the issue you can build a killer more powerful motor with up to date technology with an lsx.Years from now people will be calling lsx motors dated when something better comes along.I know people who still build flat head fords,and go to swap meets looking for 8 tracks.haha.j/k.JAY

Your probably right. IMHO though as long as SBC is more reliable, makes more power and is more cost effective then there will be a strong market for them. The same technology for induction (and even some better stuff) is available for SBC at a very good price. IMHO until the LSX engines break new gound in power production and performance then will be just like most interstates...under construction.

If you want a 10 or 11 sec car and it isnt to heavy then lsx is the way to go in my oppion. throw a good cam in, get a good converter and your there. You can do that with a sbc. Heads alone will cost more than the whole lsx, sure you might have to search for a good price on a ls1,lq4

If you want a 10 or 11 sec car and it isnt to heavy then lsx is the way to go in my oppion. throw a good cam in, get a good converter and your there. You can do that with a sbc. Heads alone will cost more than the whole lsx, sure you might have to search for a good price on a ls1,lq4

LOL, where are you buying your sbc heads? Your getting riped, haha.

More power to be had for less money with the sbc. You have to spend tons of money to make a max effot or even a high power LSx engine. Its easy with the sbc. I've been researching just this question lately.
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Quicken how can you make that statment? more power for less money? Lets get the the core of the statement , how much more money are you talking about? Lets take the smog crap off and not worry about sniffers. You and i have two nice peices , i know what i have in mine but i used the best stuff period, and i know what the sbc peices would run and it aint much cheaper at all if it is even cheaper... there are Budget builds for everything. Dont forget the Stock LS1 peices are proven to hold. Stock SBC peices arent.

not sure how much power you are looking for but if you ever want to go fi then a sbc would be your best bet because once you get up to about 800whp on a fi ls1 you start pushing water because they only have 4 bolts per cylinder :bang:

Ok lets touch on the head bolt issue and pushing water.
yep it happens, it also happens on fords but they still make power as well.
Now lets not forget to consider the new blocks coming out and are out like the warhawk with added head bolt bosses and the matching heads. Sure the block and heads cost a bit more , but the tech is so much further advanced than that of the SBC, which is why they make more power. Even if it is an iron block look at the head designs.


In the end, all of your LSx merits are invalid points due to the fact that the SBC has been taken further in every realm than the LSx EVER will.

thats a bold statement.
yes SBC is cheaper to build. yes the dollar per hp is less on the sbc.

Once the modding gets heavy (more cubes, aftermarket heads, BIG cams, etc) the SBC takes the advantage..

are you out of your mind?
lets get real here 500rwhp in a SBC isnt the same as 500rwhp in an lsx.
an LSX isnt getting taxed like the SBC is, that means longer life for the LSX than SBC.
Have you not seen what W2W is producing or what other member are putting down not only on the dyno but on the track?

Where are you referencing your information from?
yeah yeah yeah SBC have been around since the dawn of time and yes they are proven, but to say an lsx isnt proven and never will surpass a SBC is just crazy. LSX's are doing more than thought possible from SBC's everyday.


Sure the LSx responds to bolt-ons and cams better - but it does so at a cost..
huh? they suck but they also respond better ??

LT1's offer less potential over the SBC, and cost more to build...
maybe you should talk with Speed Inc. about that...

Marc 85Z28,I dont know you but some of your statements are way over the top , and its obvious to me you are extremly bias.

Can someone show me these SBC's that own all?

If you want power with the least amount of money, forget SBC or LSX, build a BBC.

Yep..

I think what is going on here is a pissing contest."my sbc is better than any ls1".My 85 iroc can handle better than the new Z06",bla bla bla.I have to hand it to these sbc guys.They sure are loyal.J

I think what is going on here is a pissing contest."my sbc is better than any ls1".My 85 iroc can handle better than the new Z06",bla bla bla.I have to hand it to these sbc guys.They sure are loyal.J

No offense but if you are taking maximum effort only. The SBC wins in power production, reliiability and cost/hp. I am sure in time LSX will surpass the SBC but IMHO it isn't there just yet. BTW I hate to tell you....an LSX is a SBC. Just the newer better version. In stock and mild performance applications nothing beats an LSX engine for smoothness, power and emmisions. Both LSX and SBC are 90degree pushrod V8's with over head valves. Just an observation.

[No offense but if you are taking maximum effort only. The SBC wins in power production, reliiability and cost/hp. I am sure in time LSX will surpass the SBC but IMHO it isn't there just yet. BTW I hate to tell you....an LSX is a SBC. Just the newer better version. In stock and mild performance applications nothing beats an LSX engine for smoothness, power and emmisions. Both LSX and SBC are 90degree pushrod V8's with over head valves. Just an observation] :judge:

I agree, LSX is just a SBC with 12 DEG heads! I'd like to go with the LSX but I think at the end it would cost more! Even in a EFI set-up! Those Darton sleeved blocks cost more than a Dart SBC block! A cnc ported set of AFR 225'S+ w/intake etc.. cost close to a SB2 Topend! The technology in the stock LSX is better but at the end it's almost the same! Whats your preference, how much money do you have!

[QUOTE=Notime383][No offense but if you are taking maximum effort only. The SBC wins in power production, reliiability and cost/hp. I am sure in time LSX will surpass the SBC but IMHO it isn't there just yet. BTW I hate to tell you....an LSX is a SBC. Just the newer better version. In stock and mild performance applications nothing beats an LSX engine for smoothness, power and emmisions. Both LSX and SBC are 90degree pushrod V8's with over head valves. Just an observation] :judge:

:judge:

I guess since the gen 1 sbc is so much more relible and produces more power than the gen 3 & 4 , these guys with all out drag cars should just get a clue and replace there record setting lsx's with gen1 sbc's... I guess even the rags on the magazine racks are also wrong.....
are gen1's great, absolutely . if it is what you can afford while doing a budget build there is nothing wrong with that. but some the statements that have been made is this thread are false & can be proven false from the information on this website..

I guess since the gen 1 sbc is so much more relible and produces more power than the gen 3 & 4 , these guys with all out drag cars should just get a clue and replace there record setting lsx's with gen1 sbc's... I guess even the rags on the magazine racks are also wrong.....
are gen1's great, absolutely . if it is what you can afford while doing a budget build there is nothing wrong with that. but some the statements that have been made is this thread are false & can be proven false from the information on this website..

There have been false statements about SBC here too. A Dart block SBC chevy 11 degree engine will run over your stroker LSX LS7 at whatever cubes you choose and will do it for less money. Its not as cool. It is old school. It is simple. It is easy. The LSX is considered everything the SBC isn't and thats ok but if you want to be objective you have just get off this site and look at all the info. All the prices. Be objective. Both engines have their pluses and minuses. I am now building an LSX engine myself so I am not against it but my SBC engine is still an excellent bargin!

Marc 85Z28,I dont know you but some of your statements are way over the top , and its obvious to me you are extremly bias.

Can someone show me these SBC's that own all?

Bias, no. See sig, I own both.

The SBC as you stated has been around for decades. It is the most ubiquitous performance engine in history, and will continue to be so for a long time. Even as fast as the LS1 market is advancing, by the time the LS1 comes close to catching up we will have moved onto something else - maybe not even an internal combustion engine.

I've seen SBCs do things on the track and on the street that no LS1, or its derivative, has achieved to date. And this is basing just firsthand eyewitness accounts (SBC) vs a MUCH BROADER sampling including eyewitness and the internet for the LS1. Just take a good look into the 10.5 Outlaw classes, and see how even the worlds fastest and quickest LSX pales in comparison against some of the other SBCs - 35MPH+ difference.

2 years ago I watched a SBC based engine run down the quarter mile in under 6 seconds. Can an LS1 do that? I can buy turn key, fully warrantied (2+ years, no core) 650HP SBC engine for under $10K. Can you buy a similar LS1? Naturally aspirated SBCs have eclipsed the 1000HP mark, and lived to repeat it in a race environment. Can an LS1 do that?

There are aftermarket SBC heads that outflow anything in the LS1 market. There are stronger SBC blocks than anything offered in the LS1 market. I can go on and on.

Unfortunately I am not an internet god and cannot provide proof of everything at will. Give me some time, and I can back up everything, with those all important links :eyes:

Hey spray, tell ya what.I will build my lsx using off the shelf g.m parts,nothing aftermarket-all g.m part numbers.you build your small block in the same fashion.no gmpp.all stock production parts.This is where I am coming from.Just because your dart block is cheaper than my world block doesn't mean sbc is better than lsx.Lets go bug the ford guys now.j/k/J

Hey spray, tell ya what.I will build my lsx using off the shelf g.m parts,nothing aftermarket-all g.m part numbers.you build your small block in the same fashion.no gmpp.all stock production parts.This is where I am coming from.Just because your dart block is cheaper than my world block doesn't mean sbc is better than lsx.Lets go bug the ford guys now.j/k/J

Jay Rod, In stock form I agree the LSX engines are far superior. I stated that three posts before this one. I am only discussing maximum effort engines. In stock form there is no contest. LSX all the way!

Building a carb'd LSX isnt much more than a Carb'd Gen1 if using equal parts. That is a fact and not fiction.

A Dart block SBC chevy 11 degree engine will run over your stroker LSX LS7 at whatever cubes you choose and will do it for less money.
my heads are 11deg, all things being equal, the price of the engines themselfs would be very similar. Are we talking Carb'd or EFI?
Cause if you are talking Carb'd VS. EFI in the 11deg head face off , i would bet money on mine
with 11deg heads isnt that turning a gen 1 into a semi-gen 3/4 clone?

2 years ago I watched a SBC based engine run down the quarter mile in under 6 seconds. Can an LS1 do that? I can buy turn key, fully warrantied (2+ years, no core) 650HP SBC engine for under $10K. Can you buy a similar LS1? Naturally aspirated SBCs have eclipsed the 1000HP mark, and lived to repeat it in a race environment. Can an LS1 do that?
6's that fast....... no that F@cking flying.... heres a little 352ci lsx that made it into the 6's http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-Casper-2.aspx yep its only 352ci....... think of what a larger CI tht is set up would do , i'd say it would give that under 6 second car a run for its money. can you dig up the info on that car and run?
there are quite a few 1k+ RWHP lsx out there and more and more everyday, and yep alot of them are diven on the street. MM used his as a daily driver.. i could post more examples if needed. or just search the fourm


There are aftermarket SBC heads that outflow anything in the LS1 market.
http://www.etheads.com/mainpage.htm
thats just one company, with there non custom ports on there own castings
My heads have been reworked by them and the intake as well for maximum efficency

There are stronger SBC blocks than anything offered in the LS1 market. I can go on and on.
http://electronic-pr.com/pr/arch_wp_366.html
And i also remember reading about another block soon to be released but it escapes me.

Marc 85Z28 i know it seem like i might be picking on you but i'm not i promise.
I also did read where you are not an internet god :jest:

If a Gen 1 is all someone can afford its understandable. But keep in mind these are Air Pumps nothing else and the Gen 3&4 are by far more efficent than the Gen 1 or Gen 2..

2 years ago I watched a SBC based engine run down the quarter mile in under 6 seconds. Can an LS1 do that? I can buy turn key, fully warrantied (2+ years, no core) 650HP SBC engine for under $10K. Can you buy a similar LS1? Naturally aspirated SBCs have eclipsed the 1000HP mark, and lived to repeat it in a race environment. Can an LS1 do that?

What is the spec of this 650 horse SBC? What are specs on the 1000hp N/A SBC

Tony Mamo has a set of AFR heads on a stock bottom end ls1 with ALL the bolt -ons and makes 480 RWHP at 15% loss that would be 552 at the flywheel or close to it, id say that is much less than 10k... And there are people doing more than that for less...........

again not picking a fight i jiust want to know where these facts you are stating come from

What is the spec of this 650 horse SBC? What are specs on the 1000hp N/A SBC

Tony Mamo has a set of AFR heads on a stock bottom end ls1 with ALL the bolt -ons and makes 480 RWHP at 15% loss that would be 552 at the flywheel or close to it, id say that is much less than 10k... And there are people doing more than that for less...........

again not picking a fight i jiust want to know where these facts you are stating come from

1000HP SBC:

472", Dart Iron Eagle Tall Deck Block w/Splayed Billet Caps • CFE Custom Pro Stock Truck style heads w/2.250" & 1.600" Titanium Valves • Callies 4.250" Stroke 4340 Magnum Crank • Oliver 6.125" Steel Billet Rods • Custom 15.5-1 .043/.043/3mm Gas Ported Pistons • CFE Sheet Metal Intake w/2 Dominator Carbs • Custom Roller Cam w/BBC Journals • Jesel Pro Series Custom Shaft Rockers • Moroso Custom Aluminum Pan & Pump • ATI Harmonic Balancer • Internally Balanced • MSD Electronic Ignition w/Moroso Shielded Wires

650HP SBC (pump gas friendly, streetable engine, not max effort by any means):

434"
645 @ 6400 RPM
Torque lbs/ft 580 @ 4600 RPM
Bore & Stroke 4.155 x 4.000
Comp Ratio 10.5 - 1
Block Dart Little "M" 4-Bolt Block w/Splayed Caps
Heads Fully CNC Ported Brodix M2 Aluminum, ARP head studs
Valves 2.080/1.600 Severe Duty Stainless Steel
Crank Eagle 4340 4.000" Forged Steel
Rods Eagle 4340 6.000" H-Beam Forged Steel
Pistons Mahle Custom Coated 10.5-1 Forged Aluminum
Camshaft Comp Cams Custom "Street Roller"
Lifters Comp Cams Solid Roller
Timing Set Cloyes Tru Roller w/Torrington Bearing
Rocker Arms Crane Gold 1.6 Roller Rockers
Intake Manifold Stage 1 Merlin Dominator
Valve Covers Polished Cast Aluminum w/Logo
Oil Pan Moroso Pro Series Windage Pan
Balancing Internally Balanced Rotating Assembly
Assembly Professionally Blueprinted and Assembled

Like I said I've got the proof, just need some time to polish my internet skills. And I am fully aware of what AFR has achieved, as what many others have dome that have posted the results on this site. That being said, I'm still nowhere near convinced that the LS1 is even close to equal of the SBCs potential.

There are several big name engine builders that specialize in extreme high output SBCs and BBCs that are getting into the LS1 market. Most if not all of their offerings are 427", and put out around 650HP, so they can make the power. But they cost around $30,000. Both engines listed above can be purchased with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty for less than $11,000

Remember the videos of the quick EVO from your home state of Florida a few months back? The built blown/turbo Cobras couldn't keep up, the big inch and boosted LS1s looked silly... The only car to beat him on the street was a SBC...

Edit: Now I'll REALLY ruffle some feathers around here. Dollar for dollar, the SBC beats the LS1 hands down. Even the SBF has been pushed farther than the LS1 likely ever will.

Dollar for dollar, the SBC beats the LS1 hands down.

look at your sig...you have an 11 sec gen3 verses your mid 12 sec gen1....no way are you going 11s on a gen1 in an f body with just a cam change...how many cam only gen 1 cars are in the low 11s?....face it...the stock heads on a gen1 are crap compared to anything stock in the gen 3 offering....fuck man...look at what the L92 heads are...330cfm stock out of the box and with work over 370cfm easy.....the stock ls1 heads are just so much better than any gen1 head ever...my friends 2000 maro has run a 11.1@128 with a cam/exhaust and nitrous....my 84 would have never came that close to that time with the same mods and double the nitrous...the gen 3 is just a way better designed motors...

you can't really compare a 50+yr old motor's aftermarket to one that is around 10 yrs old and expect it to be as cheap...the parts are coming down in price and i'll gladly pay the extra cash for parts that can gain me 50rwhp easily after an install

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to post these quotes,but Marc85Z28 said it best! I have/will build both and I have nothing against either (both are great engines), but the LSX is more dollars to build, peroid! Pick which ever you want, it comes down to preference, avaliability, and $$$$$'s! I think too much emphasiss goes into these comparisons when all that matters is (everything else being equal vehicle/weight/tire etc..)who won the race! Guy's wanna argue on how you went 8's! Tech stuff is great! But you'll spend 2 years arguing what a simple race will answer! Both can go 400HP-1500HP, and because the SBC has done a wonderful job of "keeping up" with the LSX's you can build'em both any color/size/shape you want! Out the box the LSX's are better HP/$ but one would expect that from a engine born in 1997 vs a 1950's eng! But all out you'll argue all day with the SBC having a little edge ! I have both in my garage and wouldn't mind building either, just gotta get creative and see which one will make more sense $$ wise! Isn't that all that matters? $$$'s and creativeness! :drive:

look at your sig...you have an 11 sec gen3 verses your mid 12 sec gen1....no way are you going 11s on a gen1 in an f body with just a cam change...

There are Top Stock, stock specification 305s running 10s in the 3rd gen chassis. Thats right - not a typo. 10s down the quarter, in a stock headed, "stock spec" cam 305ci in a 3rd gen Camaro.

Secondly, the current motor in the 85 was a budget motor that I built in high school and removed from the car to put in my S10. I built a 350ci gen 1 SBC that would wear my LS1 out like a $5 whore, and did so fairly cheap. Used ZZ4 shortblock with TRW pistons (11:1 compression), with AFR 195 heads cleaned up, a hyd flat tappet Comp XE284, with a Performer RPM intake and good exhaust the car went 11 flat with ease. Unfortunately a nitrous solenoid failed and chunked 3 pistons, and severely damaged the engine.

BTW - the engine you see in the sig for my 85 cost me less than $2000. Jasper rebuilt 350 came with the World Products S/R heads on a 010 block bored .030" over for $1250. I lightly cleaned up the heads myself and port matched, added the larger cam, valvetrain, intake, carb, and exhaust all for under a grand total of $2000. LS1 fans, suck on that! Car runs mid 12s, which is more than enough to embarass many bolt-on LS1s.

There are Top Stock, stock specification 305s running 10s in the 3rd gen chassis. Thats right - not a typo. 10s down the quarter, in a stock headed, "stock spec" cam 305ci in a 3rd gen Camaro.

links....i have never seen anything like that ever,,,i am interested,,,since m66nova on thirdgen got his car into the 12s with a 305 i was like cool...


it still comes down to the fact the newer gen3 is a much better motor than a gen1...there is a reason why gm spent the money to redesign the old design small block


while your motor in your car might embarass some ls1s my friends before a ms4 cam change was running low 12s with bolt ons a small cam and slicks

1000HP SBC:
472", Dart Iron Eagle Tall Deck Block w/Splayed Billet Caps • CFE Custom Pro Stock Truck style heads w/2.250" & 1.600" Titanium Valves • Callies 4.250" Stroke 4340 Magnum Crank • Oliver 6.125" Steel Billet Rods • Custom 15.5-1 .043/.043/3mm Gas Ported Pistons • CFE Sheet Metal Intake w/2 Dominator Carbs • Custom Roller Cam w/BBC Journals • Jesel Pro Series Custom Shaft Rockers • Moroso Custom Aluminum Pan & Pump • ATI Harmonic Balancer • Internally Balanced • MSD Electronic Ignition w/Moroso Shielded Wires
Very nice indeed, with the release of the warhawk block expect to see that matched and exceeded. prices should be very similar.


650HP SBC (pump gas friendly, streetable engine, not max effort by any means):
434"
645 @ 6400 RPM
Torque lbs/ft 580 @ 4600 RPM
Bore & Stroke 4.155 x 4.000
Comp Ratio 10.5 - 1
Block Dart Little "M" 4-Bolt Block w/Splayed Caps
Heads Fully CNC Ported Brodix M2 Aluminum, ARP head studs
Valves 2.080/1.600 Severe Duty Stainless Steel
Crank Eagle 4340 4.000" Forged Steel
Rods Eagle 4340 6.000" H-Beam Forged Steel
Pistons Mahle Custom Coated 10.5-1 Forged Aluminum
Camshaft Comp Cams Custom "Street Roller"
Lifters Comp Cams Solid Roller
Timing Set Cloyes Tru Roller w/Torrington Bearing
Rocker Arms Crane Gold 1.6 Roller Rockers
Intake Manifold Stage 1 Merlin Dominator
Valve Covers Polished Cast Aluminum w/Logo
Oil Pan Moroso Pro Series Windage Pan
Balancing Internally Balanced Rotating Assembly
Assembly Professionally Blueprinted and Assembled

with thoese parts , (Dart little M block iron is 2,000 and 5k for aluminum)you could do an MID aluminum block(about 2,500) w/carb intake or ls6 intake for about the same price. And IMO have a better more powerful engine.

That being said, I'm still nowhere near convinced that the LS1 is even close to equal of the SBCs potential.
wow

There are several big name engine builders that specialize in extreme high output SBCs and BBCs that are getting into the LS1 market. Most if not all of their offerings are 427", and put out around 650HP, so they can make the power. But they cost around $30,000. Both engines listed above can be purchased with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty for less than $11,000.
ok, you are right. Mine was very close to 30k i went with the best parts outside of aluminum rods, a c5r block , the warhawk block wasnt released then.
BUT if i had went with eagle (like the engine you have listed above) and some other brands it can be done for half or less.


Remember the videos of the quick EVO from your home state of Florida a few months back? The built blown/turbo Cobras couldn't keep up, the big inch and boosted LS1s looked silly... The only car to beat him on the street was a SBC....
we talking about engines or cars? cause you should know if they arent set up right it doesnt matter how much power they put out if it never gets to the ground. and no i never saw the video

Edit: Now I'll REALLY ruffle some feathers around here. Dollar for dollar, the SBC beats the LS1 hands down. Even the SBF has been pushed farther than the LS1 likely ever will.
wow x 2

again why are people racing lsx's? coolness factor, i aint buying that cause in the end its about power ,relibility and winning

I am with KHShapiro.This other guy who thinks a stock headed 305 can hurl a 3rd gen camaro in the 10's n/a is a joker.My buddy who raced his 84 z/28 spent 8k at beatty n woods on his 355 and his best time was a 12.40.He had 450h.p and his car was lightened.I guess Mark knows where all the good swap meets are cause I never heard of someone building anything with a zz bottom end with afr heads plus intake and carb etc for 2k.Good luck in your quest for h.p and merry x-mas everyone.

BTW - the engine you see in the sig for my 85 cost me less than $2000. Jasper rebuilt 350 came with the World Products S/R heads on a 010 block bored .030" over for $1250. I lightly cleaned up the heads myself and port matched, added the larger cam, valvetrain, intake, carb, and exhaust all for under a grand total of $2000. LS1 fans, suck on that! Car runs mid 12s, which is more than enough to embarass many bolt-on LS1s.
i also must say that i am surprised that you havent taken out that lack luster ls1 in your 00 and replaced it with a :barf: 305 sbc or even a :eyes: 350 sbc (all gen 1's ofcourse)........j/k :jest:

Can you hyper link the site that sell that 650 FWHP Gen 1 SBC i would like to read about it more. And the 1000hp n/a as well thanks.

I bought a used 421 Dart engine with 18 degree heads for under $10,000 complete without carb ( including fogger ) Ran 9.22 @ 157 on its first pass with a small shot in it. The engine is very reliable and has propelled my car to 8.30's @ over 165mph without any issues. I am now building and LSX engine and in order to achieve the same performance level I am already over the $20,000 mark and climbing. You want to go really fast and have a limited budget?? SBC is the only choice!

you bought a used engine, ofcourse its going to be cheaper than building new. i know you know that i just want to make it clear for people that happen to stumble upon this thread and use this as a crutch saying Gen1's are sooo much cheaper to build.
Quality parts are quality parts and they aint cheap, apples to apples.
Someone can find GREAT deals if they look or if someone is in dire need to sell they will almost give something away, They can also be found here int he F/S section as well for LS1 items and engines as well. I agree with you, its all in the budget you have and if that the time Gen1 SBC is the only thing you can find and you need to buy now then you go with what you can get.
once again apple to apples

i can get a used 6 liter lq9 from a truck and get some l92 heads and l76 intake for cheap and get an easy 450rwhp car from that....it would cost more for me to build a gen 1 because i would have to start with everything new...

instead of talking about cars and there e.t's. lets discuss the engines merits and the question of the lsx vs sbc gen1's. this is a lively debate and I hope it is continuous in its spirit.

You'll argue till your blue! Both can be built upto 1000+HP if you got the doe! Forget about, who got this cheaper and who got that! If I wanna go 8's either motor is more than capable, and both will cost about the same give or take a few! The LSX is new Technology (a little more expensive) and it's way ahead of the 50's style GEN 1 SBC, so there's no arguing that! That being said, The gen 1 SBC has no reason to come up short when properly compared!
LSX= SBC with good heads!
Check out some of those: SB2-18DEG, 12 DEG, ETC.. equipped Gen 1 SBC's!

lsx does not equal a gen1 sbc with good heads. you can semi clone the ls series onn the gen1 but it isn't the same.
the oiling and bay to bay breathing is much better in the ls series not to mention less friction within the block.

you bought a used engine, ofcourse its going to be cheaper than building new. i know you know that i just want to make it clear for people that happen to stumble upon this thread and use this as a crutch saying Gen1's are sooo much cheaper to build.
Quality parts are quality parts and they aint cheap, apples to apples.
Someone can find GREAT deals if they look or if someone is in dire need to sell they will almost give something away, They can also be found here int he F/S section as well for LS1 items and engines as well. I agree with you, its all in the budget you have and if that the time Gen1 SBC is the only thing you can find and you need to buy now then you go with what you can get.
once again apple to apples


There is no reasoning with you guys so I give up. LSX is the greatest engine ever concieved by man. It is better then a nuclear reactor and makes more power and is more efficient. OK? You win! Now do you want to race my SBC? Since its inferior and old and used maybe I can get a few cars from you?

There is no reasoning with you guys so I give up. LSX is the greatest engine ever concieved by man. It is better then a nuclear reactor and makes more power and is more efficient. OK? You win! Now do you want to race my SBC? Since its inferior and old and used maybe I can get a few cars from you?

spray , you are taking this to a different level , just relax a bit and be more objective.
maybe you didnt get everything you wanted from santa today? :jest:

I am now building and LSX engine and in order to achieve the same performance level I am already over the $20,000 mark and climbing.

Yes i am saying the Gen1 is inferior , even GM says it is. if it wasnt GM would have stayed with the orginal platform and saved in R&D cause its all about money with them.If you really believe in the gen1's why are you spending and i quote you above 20K+ on an ls series? shouldnt you just stick with your 421?
Now do you want to race my SBC?
engine or chassis dyno? If its chassis just let me know your tire size,tranny,gear, rear type and induction so we can make it equal test beds, but yes i would like to Race your SBC on a dyno.
Every real racer knows (doesnt matter if its bracket or street)its not the car with the most power car that wins, its the one that is set up correctly and has a better driver.
So when its all said and done i would be more than happy to line up with you win, lose or draw.

...........maybe I can get a few cars from you?
not quite sure where you are going with that but if its a dig that i am basicly trying to sell the ls series like a "car salesmen", sorry i am not and i dont sell anything in real life either in my line of work.

I am not bashing anyone and i also hope that Marc 85Z28 doesnt feel that i am.

i would like more researchable facts instead of blind posts
and i will continue to post as long as there are also post and threads that the Gen1 SBC is the end all of all the SBC's

Notime383, i do to a point agree with your statement that "The gen 1 SBC has no reason to come up short when properly compared" , to a point.

Anyone one have a few dyno graphs to post so we can compare the two , similar ci and build specs should be paired for comparison....
Since there are a hand full of carb'd ls's out there any EFI Gen'1 would be great as well. we could also do all sorts of FI to compare as well. I think this would be very intersting to compare the curves.

Those engine specs were pulled directly out of Scott Shafiroff's catalog.

And yes, there are Top Stock and Super Stock 305ci 3rd gens running 10s. They do in fact run stock casting cylinder heads, and "stock spec" camshaft, quotes being there for a very important reason ;) TS/SS is no secret, the rules can easily be obtained from NHRA and records for displacement and chassis can also be obtained from NHRA. Or just go to a local track that has TS/SS racing, and ask around. Oh wait, you want links (10 second Google search):

http://www.nhra.com/2004/sportsman/news/december/121401.html
http://www.shopoutdoors.com/b&lracing.htm (9 second 305)

These cars posted above only must produce a certain specified HP rating set by NHRA (current is 258HP for 305s I believe). They also achieve these feats with an ungodly amount of restrictions. So next time anyone wants to dog a stock headed 305 Camaro, shut your mouth.

Yes, the LS1 is superior in stock trim. GM agrees, so do you, so do I. But GM is not in the business of SBC maximum performance. My arguement, as was the original posters, is that the SBC has more potential. Nowhere did I ever state anything about stock vs stock. Anyone who uses this point to validate any further arguement is invited to promptly leave this post, as they do not belong here.

LOL! I'm glad you liked my SBF comment. But go ahead, and refuse to look anywhere but the LS1 market and this internet site and base all opinions on it. I dare you KHShapiro, to attend any Fun Ford event or any NMRA event. If you're not completely humbled by what they are doing with the SBF vs the LS1, I'll reimburse you for the admission costs - seriously.

Finally, I'll add that anyone who feels the need to argue any further get off the computer and actually visit a local track that hosts 10.5 Outlaw racing, which I believe shows a very good representation of what is being done in the extreme high performance world - much unlike what you'll find at LS1Tech.com.

JAY ROD - drink too much egg nog?

1. 305 Camaros run 9s. See link above.
2. Quote where I said I built a AFR headed ZZ4 shortblock engine for $2K. I clearly stated that price for another engine. How you missed that, I don't know.
3. Your buddy can't build a car obvisouly.
4. See the last paragraph in the above post.

all i have to say is this khshapiro has no idea what he is talking about . and looks like he is just making things up as he goes.. thats just my lil .02

all i have to say is this khshapiro has no idea what he is talking about . and looks like he is just making things up as he goes.. thats just my lil .02

xdamxincx Keep your 4 posts to yourself and go away troll, until you have anything valid to post. if you want to get into a war of words with me i will be more than happy , lets just take it to pm's.

Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.

wow...i guess my stock headed cammed 305 was a capable 10sec ride :)(if it was a full out race car)
so where is info of a stock headed 305 that can make the power like the above combo i stated in another post and do it n/a for under 3.5k


i rather have a better designed motor with a good efi set up like the one i plan on building

Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.

Unfortunately we can't race engines. They've got to be in a vehicle for any true comparison to be made. But we already compared engine to engine, dyno vs dyno. So until someone can build an LS1 that produces over 1000HP in naturally aspirated form, for the sake of this arguement, the SBC wins the dyno race - strike 1. And until someone can find an LS1 putting up better track times than any of the SBC counterparts running in the same class, (not talking lame 11 second SI stuff here), I'll boast that the SBC wins the real world performance race - strike 2. Finally, a quick look at any major aftermarket parts vendor that deals with both high end SBC and LS1 parts will show just how much of a price difference there truly is between the two - strike 3, LS1's out.

Let's not get into reliability either. Show me any LS1 that has crossed the half million mile mark, untouched. I've seen countless Caprice taxi's that were ex-police vehicles with 300K, 400K, even over 500K miles on the stock SBC, and still running strong. And those vehicles lived anything but an easy life.

So I have a question for you guys who believe the LSX is superior to everything else. What about a W8 SBD. Nothing and I mean nothing makes more power then a W8 headed small block dodge. W8 motor makes way more power then a hemi or wedge. It isn't cheap to build but an SB2.2 headed SBC is 100hp behind it. They are very durable and for resale there is nothing better so your cost of ownership is low. Usually a good W8 motor will cost you what an LSX will ( about $30,000) but if you don't completely destroy it you will get $20000 for it used and running all day every day. So lets hear about it. What makes the LSX superior in both dollars and power over this engine. BTW I still disagree ... I think SBC is still ahead of LSX. I am only building one because I have had one offered to me free of charge. My Friend at Cdn Performance (Sled28) wants to build a max effort engine and he knows I have the car and skills to get the most out of it!


BTW: Even carb'd the LSX costs more. Warhawk block and custom intakes and belt drive distributor. SBC is much easier and cheaper.

Oh yes, To the guy who wants to race dynos you are on crack. There are engines that make far less power then others and run faster. You build a race engine to race it! Not dyno it and stare at it like Art! Don't believe the hype!

For example on one system my car at 3200lbs makes 855rwhp and goes well over 165mph with a glide on a 28 tire. Now I bet you LSX makes more power then that...but there will be no 165 mph from you! Thats my point. mph is hp! What is yours? At least compare apples to apples!

i tried to do a google search for Scott Shafiroff's catalog and could not find anything, can you post a link.
i still can not find any info about the 1000hp n/a sbc, but again i am only performing a google search.
So i'd consider that ball one.
your second strike i need to research. so until i can its still a strike
The parts price difference,stock for stock we know the ls1 stuff is better, thats not in question, correct? Depending on which vendor you go to there can be a 200-400 dollar difference most cranks untill you reach the top where they equal out. Rod, bout the same price , bearings same price, heads we can look at afr (or any other if you want) from JEGS:
SB-Chevy Competition Cylinder Heads - 210cc Intake Ports
033-1103 SB-Chevy Competition Cylinder Head
210cc Intake Ports
Standard Exhaust Port
Angled Plug Type
66cc Combustion Chambers
80cc Exhaust Ports
1.550'' Roller Valve Spring,
220 lbs. Seat Pressure
.670'' Max Lift
Sold As Pair
More Details
$1,999.99

LS1
033-1510 SB-Chevy LS1 Mongoose Cylinder Head
205cc Intake Ports
CNC Ported w/Parts
66cc Combustion Chambers
85cc Exhaust Ports
1.290'' Dual Hydraulic Valve Spring
135 lbs. Seat Pressure
.600'' Max Lift
Sold in Pairs
More Details
$2,249.99

now this is just a small sample we can go as high as we want for both style engine and we could both go to our respectible vendors and find great deals on all of the items needed, pricing can go either way . Honestly we could both post up pricing all day long to counter the other but The blanket statement that ls series is much more to build (engine wise, not considering EFI) is untrue.
infield homerun for ls1's? :jest:

So I have a question for you guys who believe the LSX is superior to everything else. What about a W8 SBD. Nothing and I mean nothing makes more power then a W8 headed small block dodge. W8 motor makes way more power then a hemi or wedge. It isn't cheap to build but an SB2.2 headed SBC is 100hp behind it. They are very durable and for resale there is nothing better so your cost of ownership is low. Usually a good W8 motor will cost you what an LSX will ( about $30,000) but if you don't completely destroy it you will get $20000 for it used and running all day every day. So lets hear about it. What makes the LSX superior in both dollars and power over this engine. BTW I still disagree ... I think SBC is still ahead of LSX. I am only building one because I have had one offered to me free of charge. My Friend at Cdn Performance (Sled28) wants to build a max effort engine and he knows I have the car and skills to get the most out of it!


BTW: Even carb'd the LSX costs more. Warhawk block and custom intakes and belt drive distributor. SBC is much easier and cheaper.

who said the LS series is superior to everything, not i. if that was directed at me find it in any of my posts. What i do say is the the ls is superior the the gen1's. If you want to start talking about different engine styles , can i throw in a jet engine?
Oh yes, To the guy who wants to race dynos you are on crack. hmm who could that be? me :) , if by crack you mean large amounts of coffee then yes sir! :chug:
There are engines that make far less power then others and run faster. You build a race engine to race it! Not dyno it and stare at it like Art! Don't believe the hype!.
For example on one system my car at 3200lbs makes 855rwhp and goes well over 165mph with a glide on a 28 tire. Now I bet you LSX makes more power then that...but there will be no 165 mph from you! Thats my point. mph is hp! What is yours? At least compare apples to apples! hmmmmmmmmm didnt i already cover that?... what do you mean on one system? are you talking about a computer model mock up race?
Spray, not to sound like an asshole because i am not and i know how somethings can be read wrong when it is in text and not a spoken word, but come post up some legit hard facts like Marc 85Z28 to get your veiw across, just because i dont agree wont mean you are wrong , it just means i dont agree. Again i do like where this is going and Marc 85Z28has posted some interesting things that i did not know about and need to research, but again i and other dont happen to agree, just like you,Marc 85Z28 and other dont agree with what i type. What this can do is expose some truths and facts to counter false statements that may have been floating around. I for one am going to research what Marc 85Z28 has posted because i have nothing better to do in my poor crack induced coma :drive:

I think it is funny how all of you jump on the bandwagon when something new comes out. Saying that it is the best and what not. Saying that the stock pieces hold far better than anything the SBC has had in it stock. If someone where to take the time and read peoples builds, they would find that all these claims will be discredited.

I have a link here... where a stock "rebuild" that has a 150k miles on it, was pulled from the junk yard and powerwashed, sprayed with WD40, then put back together with some shitty ass 1970s smog TRUCK heads (1.72 intake valves... unported). TPI on the top with two old ass GN turbos (plus some nitrous) and it makes 660 some horsepower through a Automatic tranny, unlocked converter, and a 9 inch. MOTOR IS A STOCK 350 WITH GOOD HARDWARE. ANd has held for numerous dyno runs and passes down the 1320 (and running a high 9).

The fact is any platform is worth building. The LT1 is a waste of time if you have the funds to go to a SBC or a LS1.... but you can't forget that cam/heads and some nitrous will get you 10's in a "slow" lt1. No one can say that a certain "platform" is better than the next. They both have their ups and then their downs. Dont make me point them out, you know they both do.
Why dont you all quit arguing and think for a minute... JESUS

BTW... here is the link to the 9 second junkyard motor

http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=61219.0

bascily build what fancys you.

bascily build what fancys you.

:cheers:

i do like you sig quote.

You Google'd Scott Shafiroff and came up empty handed :poke:

How about www.shafiroff.com :thinker: Keep in mind these engines include ALL NEW parts, nothing reman or refurbished. Those power and reliability levels can easily be achieved cheaper, as long as the engine is used in an environment where it doesn't see continuous full load high RPM operation.

Since when did the AFR head prices go up for the SBC and down for the LS1? In 2004 I bought some 195s direct from AFR for $1250. The 210s were the same price... Essentially I bought a set of aftermarket "top of the line" aluminum heads for less than a set of ported stock LS1 castings. Then compare cam prices, and intake prices...

And to the comments about the "used" SBC stuff. Thanks for kicking yourself in the nuts, as that's another SBC merit - they're EVERYWHERE! I can build a SBC from WalMart, 7-11, or McDonalds even :jest:

Remember, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" design. GM wanted to address all the shortcomings of the old SBC. They copied their designs directly from the SBC aftermarket. So basically anything GM put into the LS1 someone put on an SBC decades ago, and proved it to the point that GM copied it.

Want to know about fast LS1s, Terminators, Supras, and turbo imports? You'll find them on the internet. Want to know about the REAL high performance vehicles? Get off the computer and go to a track.

DRAGFRAME said it best! Build what fancies you! You can argue this all day too many goods/bads for both! :judge:

who said the LS series is superior to everything, not i. if that was directed at me find it in any of my posts. What i do say is the the ls is superior the the gen1's. If you want to start talking about different engine styles , can i throw in a jet engine?
hmm who could that be? me :) , if by crack you mean large amounts of coffee then yes sir! :chug:
hmmmmmmmmm didnt i already cover that?... what do you mean on one system? are you talking about a computer model mock up race?
Spray, not to sound like an asshole because i am not and i know how somethings can be read wrong when it is in text and not a spoken word, but come post up some legit hard facts like Marc 85Z28 to get your veiw across, just because i dont agree wont mean you are wrong , it just means i dont agree. Again i do like where this is going and Marc 85Z28has posted some interesting things that i did not know about and need to research, but again i and other dont happen to agree, just like you,Marc 85Z28 and other dont agree with what i type. What this can do is expose some truths and facts to counter false statements that may have been floating around. I for one am going to research what Marc 85Z28 has posted because i have nothing better to do in my poor crack induced coma :drive:

First of all. I meant a drag race. I don't BS when it comes to how good something works. Use it for what its intended purpose is. I don't build engines for dyno queens. I race them. Secondly for facts....I own the car and the motor. How much fact do you want. The power is the power. The performance is the performance and the price is the price. Its not a $30,000 LSX engine its a cheap ass SBC. Thats the facts! and it hauls ass!

i dont think its jumping on the bandwagon when something new come out...if thats the case then why did everyone buy a newer ls1 car when there was a ton of thirdgens out there...because its new and probably a better car :judge:


i am ditching he sbc out of my car for a few reasons....i am not going to get a decent fuel injection system for under 2k for a built sbc unlike the one that comes stock on a ls1 car...aluminum block....what is the cheapest one...like 4k?????.....the heads alone on the ls1 are FAR superior to any stock chevy head out there...what stock chevy head offers 330cfm out of the box untouched?....these motors are reliable as fuck and some guy on camaraoz28.com a few years back had a 98 with 320k on the clock...no small block has one coil per plug granted ou can add that yourself...this comes stock....to me its a way better designed motor unless i wanna spend a shitload of cash on a 434 like someone i know to run low 9s and then have a nitrous burp and blow a ring out and pay a 9k for a refresh on the motor...i am building a road race set up car and what i am doing is the way to go...!!

i dont think its jumping on the bandwagon when something new come out...if thats the case then why did everyone buy a newer ls1 car when there was a ton of thirdgens out there...because its new and probably a better car :judge:


i am ditching he sbc out of my car for a few reasons....i am not going to get a decent fuel injection system for under 2k for a built sbc unlike the one that comes stock on a ls1 car...aluminum block....what is the cheapest one...like 4k?????.....the heads alone on the ls1 are FAR superior to any stock chevy head out there...what stock chevy head offers 330cfm out of the box untouched?....these motors are reliable as fuck and some guy on camaraoz28.com a few years back had a 98 with 320k on the clock...no small block has one coil per plug granted ou can add that yourself...this comes stock....to me its a way better designed motor unless i wanna spend a shitload of cash on a 434 like someone i know to run low 9s and then have a nitrous burp and blow a ring out and pay a 9k for a refresh on the motor...i am building a road race set up car and what i am doing is the way to go...!!

I agree in stock form the LSX engines are king. I am talking maximum effort only.

I would hope a Gen 1 could be built up to be a stronger engine. It has over 50 years under its belt. The LS engines have just over 10. Big difference. I believe if you compare the 2 engines with stock production engine blocks the LS is at an advantage. Stock GEN 1 blocks I dont believe are as strong. Not talking Dart or World or GMPP. Just stock. There is a strong aftermarket for the LS engines and it is steadily getting stronger. Far less GEN3/4 engines running in dedicated classes then the GEN1/2 engines obviously. This can be argued forever. There are so many variables. Do you compare stock castings as in head castings like 461, 462 to the castings like LS1 or LS6. Who would win then right? I dont think the GEN1 would. I think once these new blocks for the LS engines are out with the accompanying heads there is going to be huge power increases just like there was when the GEN 1 engines were offered aftermarket blocks with raised cam tunnels, 18 degree heads and so on. Just my opinion. For my goals, i am just about ready to dump one or both of the GEN 1 engines and go LS engine cause of the effiecency, cheaper fuel injection this way for myself, also cheaper for me to get into aluminum block this way which is a big plus for myself. Mind you, i am not looking to run any record holding times or anything like that.

I agree in stock form the LSX engines are king. I am talking maximum effort only.

isn't there a tt 346 car in the 6s?....i think there is

xdamxincx Keep your 4 posts to yourself and go away troll, until you have anything valid to post. if you want to get into a war of words with me i will be more than happy , lets just take it to pm's.

Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.

Me stating my opinion is not trolling. But replying with name calling sure makes you look smart. Thus why your lack of maturity outweighs your knowledge of any subject.
And i am merely speculating on what i have read in this thread. You clearly dont have the experience of either engine designs. And the people in this section which are trying to help people with sbc should not be wasting their time with you is all.

once a troll always a troll, try contributing something vaild for once.
or do us a favor and go away.

I would hope a Gen 1 could be built up to be a stronger engine. It has over 50 years under its belt. The LS engines have just over 10. Big difference. .
actually technology 50 years ago is nothing to compared to 10 years ago which should mean the ls motors should of surpassed the sbc if it could.. but it cant .. it is no better no worse.. its still a v8 pushrod engine with identicle characteristics as the sbc..


I believe if you compare the 2 engines with stock production engine blocks the LS is at an advantage. Stock GEN 1 blocks I dont believe are as strong. Not talking Dart or World or GMPP. Just stock. .
wrong some of the gen 1 sbc's block is well capable of 1000-1200 hp .. some 1000 hp cars without block fill as well.



There is a strong aftermarket for the LS engines and it is steadily getting stronger. Far less GEN3/4 engines running in dedicated classes then the GEN1/2 engines obviously. This can be argued forever. There are so many variables. Do you compare stock castings as in head castings like 461, 462 to the castings like LS1 or LS6. Who would win then right? I dont think the GEN1 would.. yes the ls engine use a different head design that the earlier gen 1 motors did not have stock .. but the ls era was not when the different head designs were used.. technology for the new head design was with gen 1 engines.. nascar's 18 degree engines were the first to use a different valve angle to increas head flow and velocity.. so what the ls engine has now was not some revolutionary design.. the sbc engines actually has more head options than the ls motor which makes them at this point in time more versatile and be made to make more power over all ..


I think once these new blocks for the LS engines are out with the accompanying heads there is going to be huge power increases just like there was when the GEN 1 engines were offered aftermarket blocks with raised cam tunnels, 18 degree heads and so on. Just my opinion. For my goals, i am just about ready to dump one or both of the GEN 1 engines and go LS engine cause of the effiecency, cheaper fuel injection this way for myself, also cheaper for me to get into aluminum block this way which is a big plus for myself. Mind you, i am not looking to run any record holding times or anything like that. the new blocks design will not do nothing the sbc hasnt or is doing. the 18 degree head and raised deck were before the ls era. fuel injection is cheaper ?? wow

Which way would be cheaper to go? With the LS1 and tuning software, EFI, etc...is it cheaper to just go SBC or will it all be about the same either way?

the only way i see it to be cheaper is to build what you already have..
if your starting from scratch and using used/new stuff ,thats gunna boil down what "Deals" u come by first.. but if ur buying everything new.. the sbc is going to be cheaper to build. thats my view.

once a troll always a troll, try contributing something vaild for once.
or do us a favor and go away.
ok since u whined about it ..i did post something valid..

I will and do give credit were it is due, those were good post xdamxincx

I will and do give credit were it is due, those were good post xdamxincx
thanks... names rich.. nice to meet ya. nice car ya got.. :)

actually technology 50 years ago is nothing to compared to 10 years ago which should mean the ls motors should of surpassed the sbc if it could.. but it cant .. it is no better no worse.. its still a v8 pushrod engine with identicle characteristics as the sbc..


wrong some of the gen 1 sbc's block is well capable of 1000-1200 hp .. some 1000 hp cars without block fill as well.


yes the ls engine use a different head design that the earlier gen 1 motors did not have stock .. but the ls era was not when the different head designs were used.. technology for the new head design was with gen 1 engines.. nascar's 18 degree engines were the first to use a different valve angle to increas head flow and velocity.. so what the ls engine has now was not some revolutionary design.. the sbc engines actually has more head options than the ls motor which makes them at this point in time more versatile and be made to make more power over all ..


the new blocks design will not do nothing the sbc hasnt or is doing. the 18 degree head and raised deck were before the ls era. fuel injection is cheaper ?? wow

So, are you saying that having 50 years under the belt of the GEN1 doesnt mean crap to the GEN3/4? Yeah, I see what you are saying about the technology being different but when you redesign an engine do you think that you can pull all the tricks out of the hat at once? I dont think so myself.
The point i made about the fuel injection was if you were to get a complete LS engine with harness and injectors and all sensors it would be cheaper to jump into FI then small block chev. From what I have read and witnessed. FAST isnt really cheap and cant say really expensive but i believe more expensive when talking about engines for the street. Also, if you think the technology was all in the angle of the valve then think again cause i also think that the cathedral port is much different than the GEN1 port. Sure they have used combustion chamber design from advancements with the GEN 1 but hey thats not all of it. I still think that once you see these blocks and heads coming from the various aftermarket companies it wont be long before they exceed the GEN1. You cant expect GM to build an engine from scratch with everything in mind. I have to admit, if i was going to build an all out effort comp engine as small block i would prolly go GEN1. It still would cost though. And no i dont think it would be half as much as the GEN3/4 i think the cost would be closer to one another than half. Aftermarket blocks, custom crank, custom rings, pistons, lifters, all that custom stuff in those power building builds cost extra. That is just some of those extras also.

So, are you saying that having 50 years under the belt of the GEN1 doesnt mean crap to the GEN3/4? Yeah, I see what you are saying about the technology being different but when you redesign an engine do you think that you can pull all the tricks out of the hat at once? I dont think so myself.. 10 years is not all at once..but actually its 50 years of technology in the ls motors .and im sayin the technology in the ls motor is not any different or better from the sbc or will be.the 18 degree motor was the transition into better design and it was in the heads.


The point i made about the fuel injection was if you were to get a complete LS engine with harness and injectors and all sensors it would be cheaper to jump into FI then small block chev. From what I have read and witnessed. FAST isnt really cheap and cant say really expensive but i believe more expensive when talking about engines for the street..
fuel jets in a carb are cheaper to replace then fuel injectors when u need to upgrade to more fuel and then u need a program and a laptop to even start tuning.. all u need is tools to tune a carb.

Also, if you think the technology was all in the angle of the valve then think again cause i also think that the cathedral port is much different than the GEN1 port. Sure they have used combustion chamber design from advancements with the GEN 1 but hey thats not all of it. I still think that once you see these blocks and heads coming from the various aftermarket companies it wont be long before they exceed the GEN1..
im telling you all the technology isin the valve angle because if it was all in the port design they would of just stuck with the cathedral port design only.. instead they needed to change the valve from sbc 23* to a hell of a jump to 15" ,,,,,,,and i beleive it was needed because the cathedral design wasnt better then the proven design nascar uses and nhra which is not cathedral, so they changed the valve angle to make the flow better like nascar and nhra designs..
You cant expect GM to build an engine from scratch with everything in mind. I have to admit, if i was going to build an all out effort comp engine as small block i would prolly go GEN1. It still would cost though. And no i dont think it would be half as much as the GEN3/4 i think the cost would be closer to one another than half. Aftermarket blocks, custom crank, custom rings, pistons, lifters, all that custom stuff in those power building builds cost extra. That is just some of those extras also.
anything custom is going to be top dollar.. but thats not what the average person would want.. they would want off the shelf forged internals..
i just checked ebay..
ls1 4340 eagle crank -725.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 479.00
summit
ls1 4340 eagle crank -1059.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 659.00
same price difference with je pistons as well..
so please tell me where the ls1 is cheaper..

anything custom is going to be top dollar.. but thats not what the average person would want.. they would want off the shelf forged internals..
i just checked ebay..
ls1 4340 eagle crank -725.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 479.00
summit
ls1 4340 eagle crank -1059.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 659.00
same price difference with je pistons as well..
so please tell me where the ls1 is cheaper..


why do you need a crank and pistons or even rods when a well set up car can run in the high 10s with a stock bottom end...there is even a guy with a 1200hp tta using a stock crank...my friends 2000 is making enough mph for mid/low 10s if he could get it to hook better with a cam/exhaust/tires and nitrous


for 1300 i can buy a whole lq9 6 liter bottom end, the heads i want with port work/springs for 1500....the intake i can get with injectors/tb/fuel rail for 500....cam is another 350 for the ms4...a motor similar to this make almost 500hp/tq to the rear wheels....how is that not cheap?...


to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah....

for 1300 i can buy a whole lq9 6 liter bottom end, the heads i want with port work/springs for 1500....the intake i can get with injectors/tb/fuel rail for 500....cam is another 350 for the ms4...a motor similar to this make almost 500hp/tq to the rear wheels....how is that not cheap?...


to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah....

Nobody is arguing the HP/dollar value of the LS1 vs SBC in a mild build. We're talking real high performance stuff here, not 500HP street motors :eyes:

if we are talking all out race then why not compare sbc to jet engines? :eyes:



we are comparing a sbc and a ls1...and thats what i am comparing....more people have 500hp street motors than race engines...

Marc 85Z28 , lets then compare the high end stuff and not eagle

i still believe, from what i have seen as far as pricing , that in the high end an LS series isnt going to be like comparing a small countries debt to a person loan (ls vs sbc build) i think they are gonne be close to the same.
The 950 FWHP engine you had list at 15-1 was 28k... 15-1... yeah i think you can do that with the C5R, WarHawk or the new GM LSX iron block. I would choose the warhawk for the added head bolts.

why do you need a crank and pistons or even rods when a well set up car can run in the high 10s with a stock bottom end...there is even a guy with a 1200hp tta using a stock crank...my friends 2000 is making enough mph for mid/low 10s if he could get it to hook better with a cam/exhaust/tires and nitrous.... y people go with aftermarket crank is that 10s aint cuttin it no more..and its the norm of what people do to the ls motors here locally to keep up with my car.



for 1300 i can buy a whole lq9 6 liter bottom end, the heads i want with port work/springs for 1500....the intake i can get with injectors/tb/fuel rail for 500....cam is another 350 for the ms4...a motor similar to this make almost 500hp/tq to the rear wheels....how is that not cheap?.......
thus y i said if you can get some good "deals" then thats going to be the best route..all im sayin is a can do the same for less.

to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah.... your comparing apples to oranges..

Marc 85Z28 , lets then compare the high end stuff and not eagle

i still believe, from what i have seen as far as pricing , that in the high end an LS series isnt going to be like comparing a small countries debt to a person loan (ls vs sbc build) i think they are gonne be close to the same.
The 950 FWHP engine you had list at 15-1 was 28k... 15-1... yeah i think you can do that with the C5R, WarHawk or the new GM LSX iron block. I would choose the warhawk for the added head bolts.

i have 7000 dollars in my motor including all machine work and it will handle 1200 to the crank. and i am still a 23degree motor .. and i can sell my heads for probabl 2500 invest another 1000 for some 12 degree heads and be putting down around 700 or so to the ground on motor alone... then i would be at 8000 dollars or so.
here is an a close setup i have cept i have some of the upgraded stufflike whats on the second example and i have less ci.....http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/434_685.asp
here is what i would have with just 15* heads. second example ...http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/434_825.asp
and mind you this is done with a short deck motor.. not a tall deck like the ls motors. u dont want to see whats done with sbc dart tall deack iron eagle blocks, like our 500 cubic inch sbc.

that engine is 14.8-1
here is the first warhawk build?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=620614&highlight=422
amazing what high comp can do. :)

edit: the 14.8-1 is the 725 for 10,600
685 is 14-1 for those of you who arent going to vist that website.

They'll crack 1000HP N/A with ET valve canted heads on around 420 ci. Won't be too long

And oh, 500CI will just be icing on the cake

This thread really cracked me up....

The GM LSX block should be a show stopper.

your comparing apples to oranges..


or two 500 hp builds and one being cheaper and more streetable

or two 500 hp builds and one being cheaper and more streetable

and thats just your modest opinion without any solid proof .

and thats just your modest opinion without any solid proof .


so a cam with 242/248 duration is a very tame cam on the street?....seems a bit high on the duration side right?

so a cam with 242/248 duration is a very tame cam on the street?....seems a bit high on the duration side right?
so i can understand you better what is it you are trying to argue now ?

how about read what people are posting before you try and discredit what they are saying...that cam had to do with the 383 build i was comparing to a 6liter build for hp...that is what we are doing right...comparing a gen3 and gen1 engine for cheapness to buiild and see what one is better?


that cam would not be very street friendly with that much duration...thats what i was implying between two builds that make roughly the same hp

Here`s a small block chevy making over 1100++ hp NA. very expensive.

480" SBC (http://www.furiousracing.com/SBC-12/480.html)

how about read what people are posting before you try and discredit what they are saying...that cam had to do with the 383 build i was comparing to a 6liter build for hp...that is what we are doing right...comparing a gen3 and gen1 engine for cheapness to buiild and see what one is better?


that cam would not be very street friendly with that much duration...thats what i was implying between two builds that make roughly the same hp
what does duration of a cam have to do with the cheapness here ..u think thats the only cam there is that can make power ? i stated my opinion of what would be cheaper.. y dont u argue that . not a cam profile.

Which way would be cheaper to go? With the LS1 and tuning software, EFI, etc...is it cheaper to just go SBC or will it all be about the same either way?
pay attn to what he is asking here ..
ls1 build and tuning software.. all that will be more than a sbc w/carb build.
if you are starting from scratch.

They'll crack 1000HP N/A with ET valve canted heads on around 420 ci. Won't be too long

I think it is gonna happen sooner than most people think it will, esp with the Warhawk block and heads due to the added head bolts so they can raise the compression with out lifting the heads.... i even consider that a genV....

off the subject a bit what was the lt5, it was an lt but it was a different block design. is that considered a gen2?

pay attn to what he is asking here ..
ls1 build and tuning software.. all that will be more than a sbc w/carb build.
if you are starting from scratch.

yes , i agree about the EFI parts when comparing it to a Carb set up...If you go EFI on a Gen1 it brings that price back up.
I also stand behind my statement that high end parts (hard parts i.e. rotating ,heads and valve train) cost ABOUT +/- the same regardless if its Gen 1,2,3,4

I think it is gonna happen sooner than most people think it will, esp with the Warhawk block and heads due to the added head bolts so they can raise the compression with out lifting the heads.... i even consider that a genV....

off the subject a bit what was the lt5, it was an lt but it was a different block design. is that considered a gen2?
the sbc is considered gen I
lt motors are gen II
ls motors gen III
and sbc are already making over 1000 hp na
nascar motors are making close to that with 358 cubes and restrictor plates.. lol

I also stand behind my statement that high end parts (hard parts i.e. rotating ,heads and valve train) cost ABOUT +/- the same regardless if its Gen 1,2,3,4
i dont think bryant or bill mitchell is messing with ls stuff yet so you
may not even be able to get top end stuff for a ls motor.. callies is as top of the line as you can get whch is real comparable to top end ,,,and like you say it probably is all close in price.

ls2 & ls7 are considered genIV (4) for us slow people

very expensive.

480" SBC (http://www.furiousracing.com/SBC-12/480.html)

$49,999.99, i have that in my sofa cushions :eek2:
but look at the brightside of that price "INCLUDES FREE SHIPPING! ( Lower 48 States )" :jest:
by the end of 07 i believe we will see that with less compression even if its (slight)and EFI

In Feb i also think we will see 1k n/a LS series.

Comparing nascar isnt fair, they have weight and other restrictions, it would be a nice surpise if they switched to LS's and redesigned the cars for them
though.

Comparing nascar isnt fair, they have weight and other restrictions, it would be a nice surpise if they switched to LS's and redesigned the cars for them
though.
well..im just talking hp comparisson.. with restrictor plates.. and 358 cubes.. :)

What was I thinking? Arguing the merits of the SBC over the LS1 on an LS1 site? Even if I posted a magic link to a 9,000,000HP SBC for only $1500, that has logged over 3,000,000 miles in a daily driver that runs 3s in the quarter, and gets 50MPG while still being registered as an ULEV someone would want to continue to arguement that the LS1 is better with inferior examples and the hope of one day that it will live up to the arguement they are trying to make.

Go ahead and live in your sheltered little worlds surrounded by LS1 fanboy propaganda :swing: , and continue to refuse to believe the truth. Get to a track sometime and witness the real world, not internet hype.

Marc 85Z28 <--- Unsubscribing from this thread due to lack of intelligence in it. Jet engines :eyes: :bang:

What was I thinking?
we are happy you came to your senses!!!

Marc 85Z28 <--- Unsubscribing from this thread due to lack of intelligence yes i edited the last sentence cause i thought it made it funny

Arguing the merits of the SBC over the LS1 on an LS1 site? Even if I posted a magic link to a 9,000,000HP SBC for only $1500, that has logged over 3,000,000 miles in a daily driver that runs 3s in the quarter, and gets 50MPG while still being registered as an ULEV someone would want to continue to arguement that the LS1 is better with inferior examples and the hope of one day that it will live up to the arguement they are trying to make.

Go ahead and live in your sheltered little worlds surrounded by LS1 fanboy propaganda :swing: , and continue to refuse to believe the truth. Get to a track sometime and witness the real world, not internet hype.

Marc 85Z28 <--- Unsubscribing from this thread due to lack of intelligence in it. Jet engines :eyes: :bang:
did you forget to read Dragframe's Sig quote, here let me post it for you.
"No way dude...i saw an LS1 fight godzilla and the LS1 beat godzilla and it looked in the air and was like what do you think of that god? And god was like bring it bitch, so they fought and the LS1 beat god and now the LS1 is god because its the greatest thing ever"
enough said!!!

wow .. someone got butt hurt bad... and the funny part is.. i have hardly read any tech articles here on ls1tech .com (thus the low post count) all my knowledge is out at the track/street .

I dont know you and you dont know me, Marc 85Z28 you have refused to read and take in anything, face it the Gen1 isnt the end all of SBC's, maybe you need to just keep the lights off and never go outside to see what the real world is about. Since i am kinda the only one really posting daily here , there is no need to beat around the bush, i am the "fanboy" you refer to or at the very least one of them. :eyes: i forgot to add, its not the merits of the SBC that have come into play , its the merits of the LS series that have been put into question when compaired to the all mighty Gen1 and the cost of a build. Face it parts in the high end are about the same, and yes you stated it, ls1 parts pricing is dropping and even now there are with in a 200-300 dollars apart foir the mid grade stuff , and lets not forget that that mid grade ls stuff is almost top lvl SBC stuff (not to be confused with SB2.2)
You are the one who refused to believe the truth, and i will put my money where my mouth is and say you dont have more track time than i. i gave you respect and so have others that have debated in this topic .no one questioned your merits, and just because some people dont agree with you they are not nut swingers............ but if thats what you like to do in your free time , more power to you :gtfo:

Is the LS1 not an SBC?

I would say go SBC, you can bore it out and race again next season...LS1...no.

In Feb i also think we will see 1k n/a LS series.

.

By that time SBC will be making 1300 hp NA without lifting the head, or breaking the block.

people like marc make these forums suck...

anything poduction on a gen 1 is inferior to a ls1 period...the heads suck ass...the blocks are good and some of the rods are alright also..even the efi set ups are a fucking joke...yay for the double flush two toilet injection...

the best factory head i can think of off the top of my head available for the gen1 is a vortec...i am willing to bet and could be wrong stock it wont flow even close to the air a stock ls7 head or a l92 head will flow...plus you can pull the intake off of a gen3 without getting coolant all over the place...thats a plus

i wont even go on about alumnimun blocks...there was a few aluminum block cars produced in the gen1 cars but who has them?...gm and a museum....98-02 f cars have them stock...the closest thing to that is a bbc and that is still a 6k block to buy from gm if you can find one...





when you compare aftermarket to aftermarket of course things will make power...what about factory vs factory...the sbc with factory only parts sucks compared to ls1 factory parts


who gives a shit what an aftermarket build can produce...if we wanna talk about that then fuck sbc and the ls1 because the hemi based 500 ci inch top fuel motor is the most powerful internal combustion ever produced on something with 4 wheels...


how about we talk street pump gas cars and see where this goes...because i have been going on about a build for my car before i ever got the idea of a gen3 build for my car and to make anything close to the same power it would not be as streetable as a gen3 build and have efi to boot

Is the LS1 not an SBC?

I would say go SBC, you can bore it out and race again next season...LS1...no.

6liter block...yes

people like marc make these forums suck...

anything poduction on a gen 1 is inferior to a ls1 period...the heads suck ass...the blocks are good and some of the rods are alright also..even the efi set ups are a fucking joke...yay for the double flush two toilet injection...

the best factory head i can think of off the top of my head available for the gen1 is a vortec...i am willing to bet and could be wrong stock it wont flow even close to the air a stock ls7 head or a l92 head will flow...plus you can pull the intake off of a gen3 without getting coolant all over the place...thats a plus

i wont even go on about alumnimun blocks...there was a few aluminum block cars produced in the gen1 cars but who has them?...gm and a museum....98-02 f cars have them stock...the closest thing to that is a bbc and that is still a 6k block to buy from gm if you can find one...





when you compare aftermarket to aftermarket of course things will make power...what about factory vs factory...the sbc with factory only parts sucks compared to ls1 factory parts


who gives a shit what an aftermarket build can produce...if we wanna talk about that then fuck sbc and the ls1 because the hemi based 500 ci inch top fuel motor is the most powerful internal combustion ever produced on something with 4 wheels...


how about we talk street pump gas cars and see where this goes...because i have been going on about a build for my car before i ever got the idea of a gen3 build for my car and to make anything close to the same power it would not be as streetable as a gen3 build and have efi to boot

NIce rant...but look at the original topic of discussion. They were never talking about stock for stock....:thinker:

As far as my take, someone has already stated it. The LSx based engine is nothing more than 50+ years of SBC aftermarket design/development wrapped up into a nice production package. It's not something the designers sat down with a blank sheet of paper and came up with so the circles that this debate is going in is really quite pointless.

As far as my take, someone has already stated it. The LSx based engine is nothing more than 50+ years of SBC aftermarket design/development wrapped up into a nice production package.
yes i agree. But its still different hench the "LS" .outside of the rods (which isnt a good idea to use because they are not centered correctly for the ls, but some people have used them) there is nothing from a Gen1 that can be used.
With all of these great and wonderful items in the aftermarket for the Gen1 why didnt GM copy them,why would they not stick with the orginal design and just copy the aftermarket.. Because they couldn't, they needed something better to work with, they knew the short comming of the orginal within the ever changing world and its needs, they needed a more efficent design, which in turn creates more power and reliblity. Remember when EFI first came out and it was laught at? We could go into the differences in the blocks themselfs or the port spacing, or the head angle but i am assuming that we all pretty much know this.. or do we...
The fact of the matter is yes the ls will be slightly higher to build when using mid-grade item BUT those mid grade items outside of the crank are going to be better parts , Yes including aftermarket. They are both going to be about the same price to build when using upper tier parts.(Callies,AFR,ETP,Diamond,Hogan ect,ect,ect)
As a matter of fact i would even say Stock LS stuff is as good as mid grade Gen1 aftermarket stuff, so you can save money on a build right there by using the stock crank and 99+ rods with arp bolts.
Gen1 is like an aging fighter, yeah its had some wonderful battles,and we all want to route for it , but its getting old and although we would still like to see it continue on a win streak, its age is begining to show.. it has for a long time. There is a new up and commer,kickin ass and takin name, hungry to take the belt with a bag of new tricks we havent seen yet.
Thats my take on it.

It's not something the designers sat down with a blank sheet of paper and came up with so the circles that this debate is going in is really quite pointless.

Again i agree with you.
This wasnt suposta be about discrediting either or but it turned that way.
I did however think was was mainly about build costs.

So what would it take to build a 600 FWHP Gen1 and a 600FWHP Gen3
Yes there have been some posts with links but would anyone like to do the research and find parts deals and post parts pricing for each
Lets then compare compression ratio ,Cams and street manners.
We could even drop the power lvl down or up is someone has an idea.


1 Saying you already have core engines complete with stock rotating(already in need of a rebuild)
2 no core (no blocks)

Again i agree with you.
This wasnt suposta be about discrediting either or but it turned that way.
I did however think was was mainly about build costs.

So what would it take to build a 600 FWHP Gen1 and a 600FWHP Gen3
Yes there have been some posts with links but would anyone like to do the research and find parts deals and post parts pricing for each
Lets then compare compression ratio ,Cams and street manners.
We could even drop the power lvl down or up is someone has an idea.


1 Saying you already have core engines complete with stock rotating(already in need of a rebuild)
2 no core (no blocks)
you cant start a build like that ur already giving the ls a lead .. how much would a stock core ls1 vs a sbc cost to begin with .. u cant just begin with two stock cores.. did santa just drop off some stock cores ? no ... start off with prices of both stock cores and go from there. but either way .. there are toooooo many variables in such a build to even be accurate.. like for instance if your talking building a n/a motor then thats not the norm.. hardly anyone is building n/a motors ..

Yes a core LS can be thousands more than a core Gen1
would it work if it is only blocks that are on hand?
this is also why #2 says no cores meaning no blocks.
i am just trying to start a base so a comparison can be made.
We have to start somewhere with a build. No used peices either , has to be something new, if you arent figuring on using a stock core.

not sure how much power you are looking for but if you ever want to go fi then a sbc would be your best bet because once you get up to about 800whp on a fi ls1 you start pushing water because they only have 4 bolts per cylinder :bang:

anyone see this yet? 6 bolts/cyl. up to 2500 Hp seems like gm is making more and more peformance stuff for the gen III's.
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=LSX&engine=LSX&sku=19166454&engCat=ls

I was hardcore Gen I for the longest time, and now I am about to build my first Gen III. Cant wait. :drive:

when i was looking for a new engine setup for my car. I came up with two choices BBC or SBC. i wanted a powerful and reliable NA motor. I didnt want to worry about dropping a sleeve or lifting heads or running over my crankshaft. There is way more aftermarket parts available for the SBC than the LSx.

So what would it take to build a 600 FWHP Gen1 and a 600FWHP Gen3, Lets then compare compression ratio ,Cams and street manners.
We could even drop the power lvl down or up is someone has an idea.


Both would have the same street manners fuel injection or not. the 600HP sbc would be cheaper.

I would like to see a sbc vs lsx showdown to 600fwhp.I bet it could be done for the same money and I bet the sbc spits a rod or crank bearing after the 3rd dyno pull.

a friend of mine just built him a ls2.. iron block,eagle crank,eagle h beam rods, mahle coated pistons,dart heads, comp nitrous cam, 1 7/8 headers etc etc... says he is estimating 500-550 fwhp..
not sure how much he has in everything but i can check

Both would have the same street manners fuel injection or not.
there is no way they would have the same street ablity, esp if it was EFI.

I would like to see a sbc vs lsx showdown to 600fwhp.I bet it could be done for the same money and I bet the sbc spits a rod or crank bearing after the 3rd dyno pull.
im trying to come in here and start sh!t with anyone, but your on drugs if you truelly think that.

im trying to come in here and start sh!t with anyone, but your on drugs if you truelly think that.

i think he is making that statement if it was with stock crank and or rods

there is no way they would have the same street ablity, esp if it was EFI.

explain how the SBC and LSx engines making the same power would have different street manners.

another member already quoted this, but as a builder and anyone else who has built SBC's already knows this.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/t...ine_dyno_tests/
you have to go alot further with the Gen1 and it isnt street friendly, when compared to an ls series.

That link also gives you a nice idea on a build up.

I have some explaining to do.Any and I mean this,Any small block we had either built for us or built by us never kept it's bearings.That is why I am such a hater of the sbc.Now don't go saying I am a shitty engine builder or say the guy who we paid huge money to build our engines is a shitty engine builder because I have seen with my experience around cars a ton of knocking small blocks.I beat on my ls1 like it owes me money and it hasn't skipped a beat on a stock bottem end with 175000kms spinning 6800rpm.

another member already quoted this, but as a builder and anyone else who has built SBC's already knows this.
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/t...ine_dyno_tests/
you have to go alot further with the Gen1 and it isnt street friendly, when compared to an ls series.

That link also gives you a nice idea on a build up.


Check out this thread there are a few guys with SBC that run nines on pump gas and street driven.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/organized-drag-racing-autocross/395974-any-sbc-running-9s.html#post3171926

with power adders, and again just because you run it on the street doesnt mean its streetable, or as it goes what street? Notice any of the compression ratios, or cam specs?Sure they can run on pump gas, but do you really want to, more importantly would you want to even drive it on the street. One more time, are we talking about E.T's or engines.

I don't know about SBC and those bearing complaints? Especially when compared to the "ultra quiet LSX" ??? I 've put together 1000+HP SBC that don't have bearing problems after 6 years over 100 passes of Nitrous injection stock block, cast crank, running 10.30's in a street driven 3500lb camaro! Hmmmm... Also have one going mid 8 's in the same car about 50 passes later no problems. That of course doesn't mean they don't damage bearings, just that I don't think it's a common thing. LSX motors I think are great, but SBC has nothing to envy when it comes to staying together and making some power! :judge:

I don't know about SBC and those bearing complaints? Especially when compared to the "ultra quiet LSX" ??? I 've put together 1000+HP SBC that don't have bearing problems after 6 years over 100 passes of Nitrous injection stock block, cast crank, running 10.30's in a street driven 3500lb camaro! Hmmmm... Also have one going mid 8 's in the same car about 50 passes later no problems. That of course doesn't mean they don't damage bearings, just that I don't think it's a common thing. LSX motors I think are great, but SBC has nothing to envy when it comes to staying together and making some power! :judge:

NRE just did over 100 dyno runs with their new 454ci sbc, took the engine apart and it looked like they never started the damn thing. Oh, and it was their 2,300 fwhp 454 sbc TT. Yup, 2,300 FWHP, daily driver engine.

Good luck with an LSx type engine at half that power. And the W2W 352ci engine is over $100,000, so it doesn't count and it doesn't make near 2,300 fwhp anyway.

LSx type engines (T, TT, SC'ed) are blowing up all over the place on a daily basis at 700 RWHP+.


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Bullshit on a 2300 h.p daily driven motor.wtf does it run on,gun powder?

If you want power with the least amount of money, forget SBC or LSX, build a BBC.


Kudos :judge:

What the hell is this going in anyway, I am having trouble finding it in the thread (I'm drunk and insane).

I can't tell if it is going in a SBC original Corvette or a 4th gen F-Body.

If it goes into the old school Corvette get a BBC and tear up the streets on the weekends and park it 90% of the time.

If it goes into the 4th gen stick with a stock type set-up installation is a freakin' bitch and a half. LT1-LS1 or SBC (empty bay) to BBC.

Well while you guys bench race I will be at the track racing. My sbc will make all 3 qualifying passes and hopefully go all 4 elimination rounds(If I dont get beat.) For some damn reason out of the 35 cars that show up regularly NONE of them are LS1 based engines.


Down the road in a few years there might be some LS1 stuff out racing competitively but right now the technology isnt there.

The "W2W 352 engine" is mine and it is not 100,000. It is not near half that. What it is right now is the fastest LS on the planet. Not sure why you insist on posting mis information about us.

KurtNRE just did over 100 dyno runs with their new 454ci sbc, took the engine apart and it looked like they never started the damn thing. Oh, and it was their 2,300 fwhp 454 sbc TT. Yup, 2,300 FWHP, daily driver engine.

Good luck with an LSx type engine at half that power. And the W2W 352ci engine is over $100,000, so it doesn't count and it doesn't make near 2,300 fwhp anyway.

LSx type engines (T, TT, SC'ed) are blowing up all over the place on a daily basis at 700 RWHP+.


.

:swing:

A lot of this going on in here.

You guys are comparing aftermarket parts to aftermarket parts. Those aren't the same engines if all of the parts inside of them aren't stock.

Last SBC I owned practically exploded. It had 250k miles on it, but it did explode.

Especially when compared to the "ultra quiet LSX" ??? :
That was a PCV problem that allowed oil into the TB, its not a bearing or piston slap problem.Common fix was/is oil catch can or LS6 PCV conversion Just incase that is what you where refering to, and to clear that up for anyone reading.

Kurt, i'd like to ask you a question.
Which is better, Girdle or dowled mains on the LS?
Does a Gen1 SBC have the same walking problem as the LS? Is it because it is Aluminum, if so does the Aluminum Bow Tie block have the same problem?
If you know great.

Bullshit on a 2300 h.p daily driven motor.wtf does it run on,gun powder?

Yeah, I guess this doesn't exist either, his 1,500 hp 427 sbc TT, smooth idle daily driver with a tiny 230 cam @ 50. His 2,300 hp 454 TT is already a package thats been tested to death. Hang around in places other than the internet and you'll see nice stuff like this in the world.

http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/427SBTT06HIGH.wmv


.

The "W2W 352 engine" is mine and it is not 100,000. It is not near half that. What it is right now is the fastest LS on the planet. Not sure why you insist on posting mis information about us.

Kurt

Sorry dude, I mistook your engine for another one I was thinking of.


.

I think it is safe to say that LSx motors have the power advantage stock, and for moderate to semi-wild builds they have an edge. But $$/hp and ultra-high end builds are still where the SBC reigns supreme. You have 50 years of experience behind them, I'm sure the LSx will catch up someday. Fanboys and nutswingers don't add anything to the debates, they just drag them down and make themselves look foolish.

Both would be nice. We like to tie the bottom of the main cap to the oil pan rails on high hp engines in factory blocks, but the aftermarket blocks should be stronger in the right spots and dowels should be great.
Stock block gen 1's have all the same problems in the crank area. The strength in a gen1 is the extra headbolt per cylinder. The gen 3 positives are the oilpump and the high cam location in my eyes, besides the obvious stock head performance.

Kurt
That was a PCV problem that allowed oil into the TB, its not a bearing or piston slap problem.Common fix was/is oil catch can or LS6 PCV conversion Just incase that is what you where refering to, and to clear that up for anyone reading.

Kurt, i'd like to ask you a question.
Which is better, Girdle or dowled mains on the LS?
Does a Gen1 SBC have the same walking problem as the LS? Is it because it is Aluminum, if so does the Aluminum Bow Tie block have the same problem?
If you know great.

No! Not the oil consuption PCV problem, it's the ultra quiet cold start ups! Hmmm! None the less both are good, but I give the SBC slight edge when fully built! BTW Nice Nova Kurt! :thumb:

Guys, you need to give credit when credit is due. The LS1 is a great engine but the SBC is still King (for now). I have had 2 LS1s, now have another 2 that I am building( one is going to be mostly stock, the other a 402 FI. The only SBC I have is a beat down 305 so obviously I wanted to go LS1 for it's newness, EFI, and lightweight in one application only, as I could have had more h.p. / dollar if I went old school.

Oh and FWIW the SBC does sound better :)

I really like my LS1s but the SBC is still a great power plant.

Guys, you need to give credit when credit is due. The LS1 is a great engine but the SBC is still King (for now). I have had 2 LS1s, now have another 2 that I am building( one is going to be mostly stock, the other a 402 FI. The only SBC I have is a beat down 305 so obviously I wanted to go LS1 for it's newness, EFI, and lightweight in one application only, as I could have had more h.p. / dollar if I went old school.

Oh and FWIW the SBC does sound better :)

I really like my LS1s but the SBC is still a great power plant.


The gen 1 SBC is not king.

The LT5 is king!!!!!!

The gen 1 SBC is not king.

The LT5 is king!!!!!!

No, not really. Although the LT5 was a great engine, it was overly heavy, large, expensive to buy and expensive to modify. Both the SBC and the LS1 have available heads that can flow similar to the stock 4v heads. The LS6 made the same power and more torque being much lighter and more compact.
The standard SBC still has a lot more going for it.

No, not really. Although the LT5 was a great engine, it was overly heavy, large, expensive to buy and expensive to modify. Both the SBC and the LS1 have available heads that can flow similar to the stock 4v heads. The LS6 made the same power and more torque being much lighter and more compact.
The standard SBC still has a lot more going for it.


Not talking best engine here I am just talking king.

As far expensive to modify the prices weren't overly expensive they were completely ludicrous.

If the LT5 had the aftermarket and production numbers of the LSX and the gen I engines though it would still be ridiculous in price but it would definately be a powerful force in the dyno queen world.