Stereo & Electronics - INSTALL GUIDE (w/ pics): upgrading factory Monsoon subs with 6.5" ones (ED eu700s)

^^^ABOUT THE POLL: you may choose 2 answers-ex: you had them powered by the stock amp, was not happy so you powered them with and aftermarket amp and were then pleased-you would select the corresponding options, etc. *Think of pleased as comparison to the stock setup-if you had to live with one or the other..were/are you pleased with the difference the EU-700s made?..or not worth the money/time.

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The following was done on a '98 CAMARO.

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This thread is intended to help guide one through the process of effectively replacing the factory subs with better ones, while keeping everything else stock. Though this can never replace your typical amp/box/sub combo -- the improvement over factory is EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT and a VERY good choice if you simply want fuller bass, want to maintain th stock look, do not want a boxed sub (including stealth)/additional amps, etc.... You may always choose to power them with a separate amp in the future for even more volume and clarity. Refer to the specs linked below for powering information.

The subs replacing factory subs are these, by *Elemental Designs:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=33
--You will need two D4 (dual 4 Ohm voice coils)

***See post #72 for additional information on the eD Eu-700 sub***

*If you have no heard of Elemental Designs, they are a smaller company and have very nice products @ reasonable prices. This comment was intended solely to those who have never heard of ED and may look past them.


Other items needed for install:
- speaker wire
- Dynamat (or any sound deadener/dampener)
- something to act as a spacer to pull subs out more (greater than about .25" and at MOST .5")
- 8 steel screws, at least 1in in length
- a type of caulk or sealant or adhesive that will remain flexible (for between the spacer and sheet metal)
- whatever tools you need or method you can think of to create a hole at least an inch (preferably a little greater than) for behind the speaker for the speaker's port
- basic electrical tools/supplies needed for cutting/reconnecting wires (electrical tape, optional soldering gun, crimps, wire strippers/crimpers/needle nose pliers, etc...)
- wiring diagram...not necessary, but recommended.. I will not try to provide all of them because I do not want to confuse anyone and am unaware of the differences with TAs/etc...
- bass blockers for rear hatch (optional)

POWER INFO: If you plan on powering them separately, consult this chart on powering eu700s http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/elementaldesigns_7kv2chart.php

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First, here are some comparison shots of the factory speakers and the new eu700s....notice especially the difference in mounting depth.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/frontcomparesmaller.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/mountingdepthcomparesmaller.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/closerearcomparesmaller.jpg

and here is the patient (bro's '98)...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/patientsmaller.jpg

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***This "write-up" does not show all steps, and is incomplete in that you would probably have SOME trouble if you have ZERO idea what you are doing***


STEP 1: disconnect battery

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STEP 2: access and remove factory subs in rear panel...you should now see something like this (your wire colors may vary...USUALLY, the wire with a black like down the center along the length of the wire is the negative one -- in this case below, solid green was positive... -on the driver's side, the positive wire was not solid, and has a white stripe to indicate it... PLEASE refer to the wiring diagrams provided at the top of this page)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/factoryharnesssmaller.jpg

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STEP 3: due to space limitations, I decided to simply cut off the factory harness... If you really want to have the option of going back to stock WITH the harness....obviously just tap into the line before it.

STEP 3 cont.: Now, create a 1-1.5" diameter hole in center of where sub will mount for the vented pole (see "PORT" in photo)...if you absolutely cannot do this, use the maximum .5" spacer (min. distance behind speaker suggested by eD tech is .25"),

*Note that the hole has not been completely cut here.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/holesizeandpowerwiresoffharnesssmal.jpg

...as you can see, there isn't much wire here....so once stripped or tapped into, the FIRST thing I would do is extend the wires using a single piece of speaker wire....... this way, if you mess up or have to re-strip ends you can afford to do so.....plus it just makes life easier than messing with smaller wires.

All connections should ideally be soldered and covered in electrical tape or heat shrink tubing. If not, twist them damn well and use crimps/connectors/etc..

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STEP 4: create a spacer that will be used to pull the speaker out (towards you) more and the magnet/port/rear of speaker off and away from the sheet metal behind it... Make it such that it fits the dimensions and lines of the previous mounting position. When installing, this is where you will use the adhesive/sealant of your choice that bonds to MDF/special wood/plastic/foam/WHATEVER you used to make your spacer and to the metal. Make sure the sealant you use will remain permanently flexible... I used a form of polyurethane caulk.

*Note that flat top screws should be used, or set them below the surface of the spacer so the sub can mount on a flatter surface... Be sure that once you mount the spacer, the wires are all BEHIND it... you may wish to cut a notch at the bottom of the spacer so the wires have more room (more obvious once you actually do and see this)... One or two screws at most should be enough to securely hold your spacer in - however, make sure that wherever you place these holes that you do not interfere with speaker holes (if you are picky about the orientation)...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/countersinksmaller.jpg

***when drilling holes here, and ESPECIALLY when mounting the sub...it can be risk to just go drilling full speed with the screw penetrating the metal itself...you do NOT want to slip and damage your new speakers. I would first take a smaller bit suited for metal drilling, drill a hole first, then screw into that hole... whenever you are drilling, it is also a good idea to apply pressure IN AND OUT AWAY from the speaker a little, so that if you were to slip, hopefully you would miss the speaker.

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STEP 5: Place Dynamat/sound dampening material in the area leaving holes for just the speaker...

*Note that there are no pics because I did NOT do this, but had planned on it... shipping delays prevented product from arriving while I was at home and able to complete the install... I plan on adding the Dynamat later, but for the time being...there were VERY surprisingly few things rattling...and the things that DID rattle, I'm not sure the Dynamat would help 100%...

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STEP 6: Wire up your new eu700s! Since they are D4 Ohm speakers, and we want a 2 Ohm impedance...we wire in PARALLEL. Below its a diagram, which may be unclear to everyone but me since I created it....so let me know if it makes sense. It is NOT difficult at all, and if you didn't know anything besides POSITIVE and NEGATIVE and had no idea what parallel wiring meant and went ahead and "guessed".....you would probably "guess" right since it "looks" how you would expect it to...

*Note that here in the diagram the wires are "tapped" instead of the harness being cut... You can also see the port here that needs to breathe and shouldn't be right against a metal surface...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/samplewiring.jpg
***All wiring was done on a '98 CAMARO....if you do this in a Firebird you will want to use all of the original wires since Firebirds have 4-ohm DVC (dual voice coil) subs from the factory***

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STEP 7: Insert speakers. Now, we can slip our speakers into place! If you used a .5" spacer...this may take some patience, playing with angles, and pulling on the rear sails a bit. What worked for me was get the magnet in first, then slip the top part in, get it as flush as possible...and pull up on the plastic below until you can sip it in. You will NOT have to take off the panel, but me choose to just tug on the side molding by the door to give that extra cm you need...

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/darkangleEDsmaller.jpg

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STEP 8: If all appears well (seats well, wires behind speaker, nothing being completely smashed, speaker grille tabs not puncturing anything, etc), go ahead and screw them in. Remember to drill a small hole first to help guide the screw in easier and BE CAREFUL...

*completely installed:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/backleftmountedsmaller.jpg

*Finished product (wood painted black, grille fabric removed):
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/692718_178_full.jpg

Nice writeup. I love the eD lineup of amps and speakers. I am going to replace my JL audio sub with an eD one eventually. I'd like to do this swap as well in the future.

I just noticed that one of my rear subs is starting to crackle and was looking for a replacemetn, which I think I just found. Great write up and I will probably be doing this in the near future and will post my results.

Bear in mind that if you do this in a Firebird you will want to use all of the original wires since Firebirds have 4-ohm DVC subs from the factory.

Bear in mind that if you do this in a Firebird you will want to use all of the original wires since Firebirds have 4-ohm DVC subs from the factory.
Thanks for pointing that out!

Nice writeup!

good write up!! I smell a sticky!!!

Thanks for the comments! If anyone is currently running these eu700s off of the stock amp in the f-body, please leave feedback so others have more opinions to go off of. Also, if you use this writeup for guidance, please let me know if I should include more pictures (have more..but don't need to see EVERY thing since it could get quite lengthy..) or details that would be useful for people not familiar with electrical stuff.

what will those subs be running at once theyre all wired up? the stock monsoon amp runs at 2 ohm right? So do you have to wire the subs two coils in parrallel or in series to make it 2 ohm?

what will those subs be running at once theyre all wired up? the stock monsoon amp runs at 2 ohm right? So do you have to wire the subs two coils in parrallel or in series to make it 2 ohm?
PARALLEL

Yes, the stock amp performs best at 2 Ohm impedance loads.

4 Ohms per voicecoil, 2 voicecoils

We can calculate this for 2 objects in parallel by:

(4*4)/(4+4) = 2
(essentially find the product of the 2 objects in parallel, and divide by their sum) -clearly for 2 objects of the same impedance or resistance, the total impedance or resistance is halved

If they were in series, we would add them: 4+4 = 8. (notice here it's doubled)

*see my diagram above

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*note that I say impedance OR resistance....that wasn't to make it seem like they are the same...the method is, but the definitions are not.

Maybe some confusion comes from the following: DVC sub, 4 ohm impedance. Hard to tell what exactly that means...and might be translated by some into each voicecoil having 2 ohms or something, and add them - 4 ohms total......either way, wrong.


The wording that makes more sense is: Dual 4 ohm subwoofer. Knowing that the impedance given is that of the voicecoil, it's clear that the name means there are TWO 4 ohm voice coils.


-I just thought about that and the way I might have typed it above that may be confusing....

so then those subs would work ok with the factory amp? I understand they are a much higher wattage than the stock subs, but would they be better than the stock ones off the stock amp? I would really like to upgrade them without to much modification the the rest of the system.

so then those subs would work ok with the factory amp? I understand they are a much higher wattage than the stock subs, but would they be better than the stock ones off the stock amp? I would really like to upgrade them without to much modification the the rest of the system.
minimum power to start the speakers up is 50 watts....Monsoon amp I assume puts 150 watts (peak) into each sub....so, the RMS value surely is greater than 50 wrms. You will not be underpowering these subs, and would not be damaging them. According to Elemental Designs, powering them with less than 50 watts will NOT cause damage to the speaker.

Do they make a difference over stock? Yes - big difference, even with stock amp. This comes from better quality of materials/construction, more efficient, etc...stuff like that. The Camaro I installed them in was 100% stock - even the HU. I will post results in the future after HU installation.

One other thing - you will want to throw a filter/bass blocker in the hatch speakers at least to eliminate the lower frequencies...as they distort pretty poorly as you turn up the bass, and you will not be able to enjoyable turn up the volume (of bass). Either that, or putting the fade up toward the front will help as well. Or disconnect the hatch speakers if you have nice fronts. I never got to mention this in my initial post because it was too long - but if you find yourself turning up the volume and are hearing distortion, fade everything to the front entirely, then slowly back to even until you hear distortion, then back off a little (fade front slightly).

i saw that they offer these in a D2 also, would those be better because the monsoons 2 ohm?

i saw that they offer these in a D2 also, would those be better because the monsoons 2 ohm?
No - I would have clarified why better....but I ran out of characters allowed per single post.

If you have two 2-ohm voice coils...you would want them wired up in series or in parallel. If you wired them in series, the impedance would be 4 ohms for the sub......wire them in parallel, and the impedance is 1 ohm.... either way, you don't get the 2 ohm impedance the factory amp performs best at.

If you have two 4-ohm voice coils...and wired them in series, you would have 8 ohms.....wire them in parallel however, and you have a 2 ohm impedance, which is what the factory Monsoon amp performs best at and is the reason you want D4, Dual-4ohm voice coils.

If you were replacing them with a sub you found that had ONE voice coil, you would ideally want THAT voice coil to have an impedance of 2-ohms.

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Remember that D4 is read as "dual 4-ohm subwoofer" (1)...not something like "dual voice coils subwoofer - 4 ohms" (2) which could be misinterpreted from "DVC 4ohms" (3)........

If you read it as notation (1), it is clear there are 2 voice coils each with a 4 ohm impedance.... where in notations (2) and (3) it could sound like they were trying to give the subs total impedance....which is not the case for dual voice coil setups -- the impedance is that of each voice coil.

thanks a lot, im a neewb when it comes to stereo stuff, but you made that so simple to understand

The big question is how do they sound???

WHen the EU-700's first hit the market, they were the rage on this forum. Until the first couple of people who tried these reported that they sounded like crap. Even the guy from Elemental Designs said these were not a good match for the Monsoon system.

Bear in mind that if you do this in a Firebird you will want to use all of the original wires since Firebirds have 4-ohm DVC subs from the factory.

Note: This is only true for a DVC speaker such as the EU-700. It's been reported that you get really crappy sound if you try to bridge the 2 pairs for a SVC speaker (which is just about every other 6.5" speaker in existance).

The big question is how do they sound???

IMO, very nice. It's hard to describe sound, but I was definitely very pleased and don't think it could get any better for being in the rear sails. I only have on sub in my car with about 300wrms going through it, and my brother (who I installed the eu700s for) had heard mine before I did his. After he heard his, he was VERY pleased - even after hearing mine (which is weak, yes....but when you are comparing it to two IB subs....). He kept saying how he had no idea that sound would come from two 6.5" subs.

Hopefully more people see this thread before it gets lost -- and then they will be able to vote on the poll if they have done the install, and how pleased they were with the results.


WHen the EU-700's first hit the market, they were the rage on this forum. Until the first couple of people who tried these reported that they sounded like crap. Even the guy from Elemental Designs said these were not a good match for the Monsoon system.

Must've been some time ago - I have searched for eu700s briefly and sound nothing, so I decided to post. I haven't been around this forum enough to know anything though. Not sure how you could say it sounds like crap...I'm VERY surprised to hear that. In case people are wondering, I'm not someone that hasn't heard bass before and this is just massive amounts to me or something...it is not like a 10" - I have one. I have friends that have 1200+wrms systems.... This setup was a HUGE improvement over stock though. If you do it right, dynamat the area, pull it from the sheet metal with a spacer, drill holes so the subs can perform, maybe even some acoustically transparent foam if your grilles rattle........then it should sound good. It just isn't completely "plug and play" like general speaker replacements as you know.

I don't know what characteristics would make them a bad match for the Monsoon system either...... IB 6.5" DVC 4-ohm subs that can handle 50-300+ wrms????



Note: This is only true for a DVC speaker such as the EU-700. It's been reported that you get really crappy sound if you try to bridge the 2 pairs for a SVC speaker (which is just about every other 6.5" speaker in existance).

For Camaro, SVC would be simple since there are only 2 wires to begin with...but of course it's hard to find a 2 ohm impedance (there are some 3 ohm midbass drivers on ebay though).

For Firebird, stock came with DVC 4 ohms......who would simply try combining all the wires together?? That wouldn't really be "bridging" but I know what you mean...

Anyways...thats what makes the eu700 nice -- the Camaro wiring can easily be modded to replace the SVC "sub", and the Firebird DVC 4 ohms are simply replaced.

Sticky please...

Yes that was about a year and a half ago. Maybe 2 years. I noticed ED assigned a new model number to these (7Kv.2), so it's possible they took the early feedback and made improvements. I'm glad they worked for you. :cheers:

As for the lack of 2 ohm midbasses for the Camaro setup, that is not really a problem. There are several efficient 4 ohm component speakers and midbasses (in addition to the 3 ohm Audiobahn AMD60Q's) that are good fits for replacing the 2 ohm stockers. And no you don't lose volume just because the impedance is higher. Electrical power is not the same thing as sound power.

I replced my sails simply because I wanted to, not because they were blown. I tested my Pioneer TS-M7PRS midbasses while I was installing them and compared them to the stockers. If anything, my 4 ohm Pioneers were slightly louder than my 2 ohm stockers. They certainly sounded better.

As for the lack of 2 ohm midbasses for the Camaro setup, that is not really a problem. There are several efficient 4 ohm component speakers and midbasses (in addition to the 3 ohm Audiobahn AMD60Q's) that are good fits for replacing the 2 ohm stockers. And no you don't lose volume just because the impedance is higher. Electrical power is not the same thing as sound power.

I replced my sails simply because I wanted to, not because they were blown. I tested my Pioneer TS-M7PRS midbasses while I was installing them and compared them to the stockers. If anything, my 4 ohm Pioneers were slightly louder than my 2 ohm stockers. They certainly sounded better.

Sensitivity/efficiency helps you maximize your available power...which isn't a good/accurate way to help determine subs loudness. Yes...better quality aftermarket components/subs/speakers at 4 ohm impedances will all generally sound louder/better.....but why not match the impedances if possible and get the most from your system? I'm not sure how you can say "no you don't lose volume just because the impedance is higher".......I hope that you made that comment as a general statement when replacing out speakers with 4 ohm ones, and not as "2 ohm speakers will play the same as 4 ohm speakers with the factory monsoon amp"... Regardless - 4 ohm speakers are getting less power, and if you want louder sound, then you need more power. I do not doubt that 4 ohm components sound better or slightly louder back there....but these speakers are far more than slightly louder.....

Sensitivity/efficiency helps you maximize your available power...which isn't a good/accurate way to help determine subs loudness. Yes...better quality aftermarket components/subs/speakers at 4 ohm impedances will all generally sound louder/better.....but why not match the impedances if possible and get the most from your system? I'm not sure how you can say "no you don't lose volume just because the impedance is higher".......I hope that you made that comment as a general statement when replacing out speakers with 4 ohm ones, and not as "2 ohm speakers will play the same as 4 ohm speakers with the factory monsoon amp"... Regardless - 4 ohm speakers are getting less power, and if you want louder sound, then you need more power. I do not doubt that 4 ohm components sound better or slightly louder back there....but these speakers are far more than slightly louder.....

I meant to illustrate the fact that coil impedance by itself says nothing about how well the speaker turns electrical signals into sound. The point being: just because the stock speakers are 2 ohm, doesn't mean you can't use a 4 ohm speaker. Likewise, Just because an aftermarket speaker is 2 ohms, doesn't guarantee it's a good replacement.

You are correct that Sensitivity/Efficiency ratings need to be placed in context. And coil impedance can be a critical factor in interpreting the sensitivity numbers.

For those who don't know: Sensitivity is usually defined as the sound power level a speaker produces at a defined electrical input measured at a fixed distance directly in front of the speaker. Unfortunately, speaker manufacturers don't measure sensitivity the same way, nor do they always tell you how they measured it. And for multi-element speakers they don't tell which element the measurement relates to. But sensitivity is the only commonly given spec that quantifiably relates electrical input to sound output.

I meant to illustrate the fact that coil impedance by itself says nothing about how well the speaker turns electrical signals into sound. The point being: just because the stock speakers are 2 ohm, doesn't mean you can't use a 4 ohm speaker. Likewise, Just because an aftermarket speaker is 2 ohms, doesn't guarantee it's a good replacement.
Exactly. Thanks for calrifying :)

Ok i have a Firebird and my stock subs in the back are rattling and not sounding good anymore.

How hard is it to install these into a firebird? Would i need new wiring? Judging from the posts id say no. Thanks so much! You guys put 1 on each side right?

Ok i have a Firebird and my stock subs in the back are rattling and not sounding good anymore.

How hard is it to install these into a firebird? Would i need new wiring? Judging from the posts id say no. Thanks so much! You guys put 1 on each side right?
Assuming you have a Monsoon system in your Firebird then installation is the same as shown except that you will wire the four terminals on the speakers individually to the four factory wires instead of combining them to connect to only two wires as in a Camaro.

seeing these are actually subwoofers, and for those of us that already have a dedicated sub and are using the sail panel drivers as midbass fill, I'm not so sure that these 7kv.2 subs are a good choice here -if- they can't play midbass. I have a pair of Peerless midbass drivers in my sail panels and they play -great- midbass. I have thought about trying these eD's in place of my Peerless, but I just think they may excel more as a subwoofer than they do as a mid bass driver. What are your guys thoughts?

So whitebird i can use the stock amp and everything? Is this easy to setup? Im a n00b when it comes to car audio but i would like something a bit more powerful than the stock subs without changing my setup and this definitely sounds like a good solution

So whitebird i can use the stock amp and everything? Is this easy to setup? Im a n00b when it comes to car audio but i would like something a bit more powerful than the stock subs without changing my setup and this definitely sounds like a good solution
Yes, as fredmr39 has described, you have to make a spacer and do some work to mount the speakers but you can just wire them up to the factory speaker wires and keep your head unit and Monsoon amp.

Just be sure to double check that you have a Monsoon system (W54 or W55 option code on the door sticker) - most V6 models didn't come with the Monsoon system.

Yes, as fredmr39 has described, you have to make a spacer and do some work to mount the speakers but you can just wire them up to the factory speaker wires and keep your head unit and Monsoon amp.

Just be sure to double check that you have a Monsoon system (W54 or W55 option code on the door sticker) - most V6 models didn't come with the Monsoon system.

Yeah i got it..most v6's dont come with leather either and i got that as well :) Everything but t-tops :(

Very nice write up! :judge:

Mine are also blown and was looking for a decent replacement vs cost just for stock system use.

What do you guys think about this unit as a replacement over the stockers?

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOPIPE-6-SUB-150-W-SUBWOOFER-CAR-AUDIO-BASS-V06_W0QQitemZ270081342405QQihZ017QQcategoryZ18805Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Thanks in advance!



BT

What do you guys think about this unit as a replacement over the stockers?

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOPIPE-6-SUB-150-W-SUBWOOFER-CAR-AUDIO-BASS-V06_W0QQitemZ270081342405QQihZ017QQcategoryZ18805Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
BT

75 Watts power (RMS)
DVC 4 ohms

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RMS seems like a good number to be at - I was thinking 75wrms or more would be a good match for the Monsoon amp.

DVC 4 Ohms will work just fine for either the Firebird or the Camaro.

--The price there is for one sub I believe, so Just make sure there is another one available if you go with these. There are many options you can find on ebay if you search for 6"/6.5" subs/midbass drivers.etc...

I know nothing about the brand/manufacturers of Audiopipe...most I have seen on ebay are by Audiobahn (ex: http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOBAHN-AMD60Q-6-5-MIDBASS-DRIVERS-SPEAKERS-NEW-PAIR_W0QQitemZ250076814456QQihZ015QQcategoryZ18799 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
--Those speakers however are SVC 3 ohm....but 3 ohm speakers should still give very nice results - assuming efficiency/quality/etc are the same as a comparable 2 ohm.....

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so in summary: there are many options out there -- go with what you want to spend money on or need - and post your results!

75 Watts power (RMS)
DVC 4 ohms

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RMS seems like a good number to be at - I was thinking 75wrms or more would be a good match for the Monsoon amp.

DVC 4 Ohms will work just fine for either the Firebird or the Camaro.

--The price there is for one sub I believe, so Just make sure there is another one available if you go with these. There are many options you can find on ebay if you search for 6"/6.5" subs/midbass drivers.etc...

I know nothing about the brand/manufacturers of Audiopipe...most I have seen on ebay are by Audiobahn (ex: http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOBAHN-AMD60Q-6-5-MIDBASS-DRIVERS-SPEAKERS-NEW-PAIR_W0QQitemZ250076814456QQihZ015QQcategoryZ18799 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
--Those speakers however are SVC 3 ohm....but 3 ohm speakers should still give very nice results - assuming efficiency/quality/etc are the same as a comparable 2 ohm.....

-------

so in summary: there are many options out there -- go with what you want to spend money on or need - and post your results!

>>>>>>>>
Thanks for posting that Audiobahn link.
The Audiobahn specs look better than the Audiopipe.

Audiobahn: Frequency Response: 30Hz - 5kHz
Sensitivity: 93dB
Power Handling: 200 watts RMS /pair

Audiopipe: freq. resp.: 60 - 3KHz
sensitivity: 88dB
75 Watts power (RMS)/ per 1


I like the 93 db sensitivity, that's killer for a 6 inch and their only $10 more per pair! :)
I'm not so sure about it being only 3 ohms though, what is your opinon?
Would you rather have 1 more ohm to drive the amp with less power on 93 db sensitivity or 5 less sensitivity db's and one less ohm to drive the amp harder? :eek2:

Do you know the freq. response and sensitivity on the Elementals? ( i found there spec sheet rather confusing :eyes: )
The Elementals have some pretty great reviews, I might end up going with them.
I know it's tough to try and explain louder bass or deeper base in a text format and I know you say they are better than stock.
Is there anyway you could put maybe a percentage on how much better than working stock units?
Would you say the bass is more solid and deeper with out getting muddy like the stockers at higher volume levels and with the bass level turned maybe to 3/4?

Sorry for all the questions, I just replaced the door speakers with some Walmart Sonys and I just don't like the way they sound.
I'm just trying to avoid making the same mistake with the sail panel speakers. :bang:


Thanks!

BT

Very nice write up! :judge:

Mine are also blown and was looking for a decent replacement vs cost just for stock system use.

What do you guys think about this unit as a replacement over the stockers?

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIOPIPE-6-SUB-150-W-SUBWOOFER-CAR-AUDIO-BASS-V06_W0QQitemZ270081342405QQihZ017QQcategoryZ18805Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Thanks in advance!



BT

I would avoid them, they are selling them as a "subwoofer" but they list the low end of their useful range as 60HZ, and because the website does not list any useful info about the driver (great looking catalog though) usually that means the specs are less than spectacular. The fact that it is shiny will not make it sound good.

The EU-700 has an fs around 28HZ IIRC, much better for low end reinforcement.

Others worth considering if you like the EU-700:
Mpyre Audio 65M and 65X
TANG BAND W6-1139SG

You could also opt for a good 7" midwoofer (there are lots to choose from).

I would also like to second HiTechGent in that the sensitivity number is pretty much useless if you do not understand all the factors involved in determining that number and the reference point used by the manufacturer.

That Audiobahn is a great example for misleading sensitivity numbers.

based on the T/S specs from their website (which are often up to 20% off, but you have to start somewhere)
SPL @ 1W,1M is 84db
SPL @ 2.83 Vrms, 1M is 87.8db

The 93db number is an "in car" measurement, which is an extremely optimistic and undocumented measurment.

To reiterate, unless you understand whats going on, do not use the sensitivity rating to compare drivers.

That Audiobahn is a great example for misleading sensitivity numbers.

based on the T/S specs from their website (which are often up to 20% off, but you have to start somewhere)
SPL @ 1W,1M is 84db
SPL @ 2.83 Vrms, 1M is 87.8db

The 93db number is an "in car" measurement, which is an extremely optimistic and undocumented measurment.

To reiterate, unless you understand whats going on, do not use the sensitivity rating to compare drivers.
yea that's why I didn't even comment on their high sensitivity...I never looked into it though, but I should have since it may mislead people. Thanks for posting those #s!

Is there anyway you could put maybe a percentage on how much better than working stock units?
Would you say the bass is more solid and deeper with out getting muddy like the stockers at higher volume levels and with the bass level turned maybe to 3/4?

I would like to...but there are several problems with this:

I have not heard stock bass....almost ever. In my car I've had just an aftermarket HU and amp/sub setup for 3 years or so now...

I did the install in my brother's car, and his rear speakers were completely blown...then the one he thought worked he lost somehow. So I have not heard his stock system EVER before...(since only the distorted hatch speakers and the front left tweeter worked...lol). If you want a % compared to that.....well, they are 100% better!

What I can do though is compare my setup (without the amp/sub) to his....my HU is not stock however... I will also compare aftermarket HUs with factory bass and eD bass then once I put his new HU in. There are a variety of measurements and observations I would like to make (with ears and various equipment) so that I can be more clear in my description....but it will have to wait until spring break when I have the cars.

Thanks TA guy for that info.
I didn't know that more than one measure could be used, I thought there was one standard used. SPL @ 1W,1M ( free air )

Does the other method alter the Freq. specs? lower or higher HZ?
Audiobahn: Frequency Response: 30Hz - 5kHz
If one was looking for more lower end response wouldn't it be better to choose a sub with a lower HZ rather than one that starts out higher?

I'm probably confused on this, please try and help me understand if I am not correct. :eek2:


I'm not so sure about it being only 3 ohms though, what is your opinon?
Would you rather have 1 more ohm to drive the amp with less power on 93 db sensitivity or 5 less sensitivity db's and one less ohm to drive the amp harder?
>>>>>>>>>>

so, since the sensitivity is not that much of an issue what about the ohms in this instance between the audiobauhn and audiopipe for overall performance with the factory amp?


PLease explain if for some reason I still don't understand.


Thanks.


BT

I would like to...but there are several problems with this:
>>>>>>>>>

I understand and thank you for the help! :chug:


If you want a % compared to that.....well, they are 100% better!
>>>
:judge: lol

Thanks again and I'm looking forward to spring break! :)



BT

Does the other method alter the Freq. specs? lower or higher HZ?
Audiobahn: Frequency Response: 30Hz - 5kHz


so, since the sensitivity is not that much of an issue what about the ohms in this instance between the audiobauhn and audiopipe for overall performance with the factory amp?

BT
no - but there are some problems with freq. response...I'll try my best to explain what I know and look for:

A frequency response tells you how much of the audio range the speaker can reproduce -- and SOMETIMES how well it is at reproducing certain frequencies in that range. A rating of 50 Hz is pretty good bass response almost the lowest not on acoustic bass (I *THINK* I heard that before). 30hz is PLENTY low IMO, and wont be THAT much greater for smaller speakers claiming 20 Hz (upper freq rang is usually 20k Hz.....20 Hz - 20,000 Hz is the average range of human hearing).

Sometimes you see a +/- dB rating...this means that when given a signal of a certain voltage within the freq range of the speaker, the speaker will give you sound +/- 3 decibels of the original signal. 3 is considered good, 2 really good, under that....too good. **** THAT **** is the spec there could be discrepancy in a way... Two speakers with exactly the same rated frequency response can sound completely different. One can be +3 dB from 80 Hz to 500 Hz, and -3 dB from 5 kHz to 20 kHz. It'll sound very...idk the word for it - not crisp/clear...darker (not the good kind of darker...there is good dark and dirty dark...usually you WANT sounds darker though). Another could be -3 dB from 80 Hz to 500 Hz, and +3 dB from 5 kHz to 20 kHz. This one will sound very bright, because obviously it is usually 3 dB LOUDER that the actual sound at higher freqs and 3 dB LOWER for lower freqs...... so now thats a difference of 6 dB....HUGE. This is why there is so much variation amongst components, and you really have to look at the specs or look at them...some will sound ver bright, others very bottom heavy. Freq response also depends on how you listen to the speaker (certain "axis"). Chances are you won't be listening on that axis...so +/- X dB may be much higher, and usually is higher.

Sensitivity may or may not be that different (haven't looked at exact numbers), but impedance is definitely something you can count on making a difference. A 4 ohm speaker will get maybe 66% the power of a 2 ohm in most situations, and a 3 ohm speaker close to 83% of the 2 ohm...... of course it could be better or worse, but that shows some relation to power differences... and with the better efficiency ratings, it can sound like 100% or more. IF you can get accurate ratings, sensitivity is one of THE BEST figures to look at IMO.. If a speaker is has a sensitivity rating that is 3 dB more than another one - believe it or not, your amp demands only HALF as much power to produce the SAME amount of sound volume. 90 is considered good...so when you see something like 93 from a cheaper speaker....you should probably assume that something is up.

EDIT: by the way....don't get too caught up in the numbers... the only way to REALLY know is to either engineer a speaker yourself, or read reviews/opinions/listen yourself and see if YOU like it. Also, I realize we are looking at "subs" in this thread....don't be pushed away from higher distortion % for lower frequencies....as they are generally higher, and inaudible. Which is also why amps such as class D monos generally give up some signal clarity for transistor speed - it wont be audible through the sub (generally). Unfortunately as far as hands on experience, I have almost none... just through what I have heard mostly, so I am not very useful there... Luckily, there are some guys with LOTS of experience on this board that I have come across in the short time I've been here.

sweet

Unfortunately, there is just too many variables to be able to apply 1 simple rule of thumb to selecting the "best" speaker for any particular application. I highly recommend going to http://www.bcae1.com/ as a primer for anyone who doesn't know the science of audio. While it dosen't cover everything, it will give you enough information to know what to ask next.

That Audiobahn is not a good choice for a sub replacement, its low freq responce is definitely not what you want for that application.

For a small sub like that with reasonable low end responce the sensitivity rating will be low, its how the physics work. the sensitivity of a driver will decrease as its ability to produce low frequencies incresaes and/or as the required box size decreases. Look up Hoffman's Iron law for an explanation of the physics behind it.

you will definitely not find an honnest 90db 6.5" sub that produces low notes with authority in this application.

Audiobahn = eye candy that just happens to reproduce sound, well, kind of :lol:

That Audiobahn is not a good choice for a sub replacement, its low freq responce is definitely not what you want for that application.
>>>>>>
Aren't these the speakers in our cars the ones that provide the lower bass freqs for audio?


Why is "that" low freq response not what I would want for "this" application?
Aren't we trying to go low here, ( I'm not looking for something like a Planet Audio "Big Bang" or anything that loud, even though I would love to place a 10 in the back and strap my old HiFonics Zeus to it 800 watts mono 4 ohm load and crank the gain to max with my Audio Control EQX in the mix cutting it around 60 HZ :drive: ).


Anyway, I doubt I would want the Audiobauh just based on it being only 3 ohms and not 2 the amp would like to see for forceing it to push more power to the speaker. Even though I understand a speaker that has a higher SPL would require less wattage to be louder.

I knew this wasn't going to be all that easy with this dang car, "just replacing two speakers". :bang: :jest:

Audiobahn = eye candy that just happens to reproduce sound, well, kind of :lol:
I have no experience with them....but that seems to sum up everything I have heard - those ebay ones don't even look good.....so I wonder what the price is for then...??? --must be that sweet wooden gift crate they come in!
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/giftwoodd.jpg

Why is "that" low freq response not what I would want for "this" application?
Aren't we trying to go low here, ( I'm not looking for something like a Planet Audio "Big Bang" or anything that loud, even though I would love to place a 10 in the back and strap my old HiFonics Zeus to it 800 watts mono 4 ohm load and crank the gain to max with my Audio Control EQX in the mix cutting it around 60 HZ :drive: ).


Anyway, I doubt I would want the Audiobauh just based on it being only 3 ohms and not 2 the amp would like to see for forceing it to push more power to the speaker. Even though I understand a speaker that has a higher SPL would require less wattage to be louder.

I knew this wasn't going to be all that easy with this dang car, "just replacing two speakers". :bang: :jest:

I entered the T/S parameters into a speaker modeling program and looked at the sealed responce in both an optimum sealed and an infinite baffle alignment, just to get a feel for how the woofer would perform over a wide range. What I saw was that this driver does not do well at producing bass at any point in that range. However, It does model fairly well in a vented alignment, but that doesn't help you, so in summary "that" low freq response is not what you would want for "this" application.

Also, your amp would much rather see a 3 or 4ohm load over a 2 ohm load as it is easier to drive a higher impedence load. You want to extract more power so you can boom louder. But, a 2ohm driver will not necessarily be any louder than a 4 or 8 ohm driver with less power. that is where the sensitivity numbers are handy if you really understand what they are telling you. What the sensitivity dosen't tell you is how well a driver will produce bass. the "frequency range" is an indicator but will be heavily dependant on the application.

So you see, nothing is ever easy.

I entered the T/S parameters into a speaker modeling program and looked at the sealed responce in both an optimum sealed and an infinite baffle alignment, just to get a feel for how the woofer would perform over a wide range. What I saw was that this driver does not do well at producing bass at any point in that range. However, It does model fairly well in a vented alignment, but that doesn't help you, so in summary "that" low freq response is not what you would want for "this" application.

Also, your amp would much rather see a 3 or 4ohm load over a 2 ohm load as it is easier to drive a higher impedence load. You want to extract more power so you can boom louder. But, a 2ohm driver will not necessarily be any louder than a 4 or 8 ohm driver with less power. that is where the sensitivity numbers are handy if you really understand what they are telling you. What the sensitivity dosen't tell you is how well a driver will produce bass. the "frequency range" is an indicator but will be heavily dependant on the application.

So you see, nothing is ever easy.




However, It does model fairly well in a vented alignment, but that doesn't help you, so in summary "that" low freq response is not what you would want for "this" application.
>>>>
I see now, thank you for explaining how you came to that conclusion.
I was wondering how you were coming up with "that it's not what I need for this application." :chug:

Seeing how your using a modeling program, would it be possible you could take the time and compare the Elemental and the Audiopipe to see if the price difference would be justified or which one would be better for this application?

If not and your too busy I would understand. :)

Also, if GM designed the factory amp to use a 2 ohm speaker and not a 4 or 8 ohm with better sensitivity do you think it's just about money they wanted to spend on the system or do you think that GM just wanted to make an odd ball speaker so that it would be hard to find a good 2 ohm replacement speaker and force us to go back to GM for another cruddy speaker that won't last. ( so GM can make more money, much like the always failing 4l60-E transmission in these cars.) I'm on my third trans with less than 40K on the clock. :bang: and I baby it alot. :eek2:

If you had two identical speakers with the only difference in specs was one was 4 ohms and the other 8 ohms and everything else be equal, wouldn't the 4 ohm speaker drive the amp harder than the 8 ohm and therfore the 4 ohm would be able to hit a higher db?
So how would this play out with the factory amp that was designed to use 2 ohm speakers? :eek2:


Thanks.

Unfortunately, I did not see any t/s specs for the audiopipe drivers so I can't model it.

As to the 2ohm factory speakers (note I am not an automotive engineer) the short answer is that it is cheaper. Now the long answer: Manufacturers want to build the cheapest amps possible, and it is much cheaper to build an amp that does not need a switching power supply. Which means that the rail voltage in the amp will be limited to ~12V. Looking to physics:
P=I*V and V=I*R
P=power
I=current
V=voltage
R=resistance
The electrical system of a car is ~12v. So we can derive that P=V^2/R, so you can see that if V is limited the only way to increase P is by reducing R. Now by using a dual 2ohm VC sub, GM can provide twice that power by bridging two of these cheap amps. Apparently this was still cheaper than using a single VC sub with a switching power supply amp.

As to your next question
"If you had two identical speakers with the only difference in specs was one was 4 ohms and the other 8 ohms and everything else be equal, wouldn't the 4 ohm speaker drive the amp harder than the 8 ohm and therfore the 4 ohm would be able to hit a higher db?
So how would this play out with the factory amp that was designed to use 2 ohm speakers?"

you cannot keep all else equal, by going to 8 ohms a number of things will change, but I know what you are asking. In a nutshell, theoretically, efficiency should go up as impedance increases, so you will see the same SPL from the 4 ohm driver at 200 watts as from the 8 ohm driver at 100watts. Based on the following formula.
Efficiency=(B^2*L^2)/(R*Sd^2*Mms^2)
B=magnetic field strength
L=length of wire
R=resistance
Sd=surface area
Mms = mass

Also note that when SPL is given as:
2.83Vrms@1M
2.83Vrms=1watt @ 8ohms=2watts @ 4 ohms

Now seriously, go to the site I linked to earlier and start to educate yourself. Chicks dig it

Very nice response.

Now by using a dual 2ohm VC sub, GM can provide twice that power by bridging two of these cheap amps. Apparently this was still cheaper than using a single VC sub with a switching power supply amp.The Camaro has SVC 2-ohm subs and the Firebird has DVC 4-ohm subs. Contrary to common belief, the Firebird voice coils are not wired in parallel to produce a net 2-ohm load - the dual voice coils are powered by separate channels of the amp.

As to your next question
"If you had two identical speakers with the only difference in specs was one was 4 ohms and the other 8 ohms and everything else be equal, wouldn't the 4 ohm speaker drive the amp harder than the 8 ohm and therfore the 4 ohm would be able to hit a higher db?
So how would this play out with the factory amp that was designed to use 2 ohm speakers?"

you cannot keep all else equal, by going to 8 ohms a number of things will change, but I know what you are asking. In a nutshell, theoretically, efficiency should go up as impedance increases, so you will see the same SPL from the 4 ohm driver at 200 watts as from the 8 ohm driver at 100watts. Based on the following formula.
Efficiency=(B^2*L^2)/(R*Sd^2*Mms^2)
B=magnetic field strength
L=length of wire
R=resistance
Sd=surface area
Mms = mass

Also note that when SPL is given as:
2.83Vrms@1M
2.83Vrms=1watt @ 8ohms=2watts @ 4 ohmsPut another way, connecting an otherwise identical 4-ohm speaker in place of an original 2-ohm will cut the power approximately in half. Cutting the power in half does not result in half the volume - it actually results in a 3dB drop in volume. It takes 6dB to 10dB for the human ear to perceive half (or double) the volume. Also, efficiency is not a linear value so a relatively small increase in efficiency can easily make up the 3dB difference in volume.

You can always install a speaker of higher impedance than the original because it reduces current (and therefore heat) in the amp. Never install speakers with lower impedance unless you are sure the amp is stable at the new impedance. Otherwise, the increase in current flow will most likely damage the amp's output stage.

Put another way, connecting an otherwise identical 4-ohm speaker in place of an original 2-ohm will cut the power approximately in half. Cutting the power in half does not result in half the volume - it actually results in a 3dB drop in volume. It takes 6dB to 10dB for the human ear to perceive half (or double) the volume. Also, efficiency is not a linear value so a relatively small increase in efficiency can easily make up the 3dB difference in volume.
EDITED
---

:thumb: Thanks WhiteBird00, TA guy, and everyone else so far that has contributed to this thread in clearing questions, concerns, etc (as well as those of you who have asked questions)!!!

Very nice response.

Thanks

Put another way, connecting an otherwise identical 4-ohm speaker in place of an original 2-ohm will cut the power approximately in half. Cutting the power in half does not result in half the volume - it actually results in a 3dB drop in volume. It takes 6dB to 10dB for the human ear to perceive half (or double) the volume. Also, efficiency is not a linear value so a relatively small increase in efficiency can easily make up the 3dB difference in volume.

What I was trying to convey is that you don't necessarily lose any SPL by using a higher impedance driver, even though you are delivering less power to the driver. Worst case, as whitebird00 said, any SPL loss you may have due to the impedance change will be negligable.

Now seriously, go to the site I linked to earlier and start to educate yourself. Chicks dig it
>>>>>
That was really good, I like that!

Thank you for checking on the model and for the info.

What I was trying to convey is that you don't necessarily lose any SPL by using a higher impedance driver, even though you are delivering less power to the driver. Worst case, as whitebird00 said, any SPL loss you may have due to the impedance change will be negligable.
>>>>

I hear what your saying about it being negligable in a math setting.
Final question though, ( crowd boos lol )

I had my Zeus hooked up to 4 15's in an Rx-7, ( many years ago ) I hooked up all 4 C-15's 4 ohm in parrallel, I think the guy at HiFonics ( after I fried the amp over time (( it was so hot you couldn't even touch it! ) said I was probably gicing the amp a 1/4 ohm load.)

It ROCKED very hard untill the amp would shut down after 30 minutes or so... thermal protection until I finnaly cooked it and had to send it in for repair to get it fixed.

The guys were nice enough to send me a wireing diagram to set it up for a 4 ohm load after I burned it up. ( series back to parallel )

It sounded good and would run cooler but it didn't have the authority if you will as it did when in 1/4 ohm all parallel.

I tried all 4 in series to ( test a theory ) and it was weak and muddy with no authority at all. (sucked actually). I thought it was pretty weak for 4 15's.

So my final question for anyone would be, if "ohmage" doesn't really matter and speakers are more effiecent with a higher ohm load, WTF happend with my setup. :eek2:

Any takers?

I'll sit back and let the sparks fly, ( jumping into flame retardent suit ) :)


Thanks again guys, TAguy, Fred, and whitebird!

Very nice info. guys, thanks!


BT

I was just on my way out so I don't know anything about the models/setup you used... but it sounds like you were trying to drive 4 subs off a single amp. Was that amp stable down at 1 ohm? If you have them all wired in parallel, total impedance would be (.25+.25+.25+.25)^(-1) => 1 Ohm

In series if would be 4+4+4+4 = 16 ohms.....

Those results should kinda explain themselves if I understand the setup correctly.

Your amp just wasn't able to meet the requirements of your setup and it was not stable/ designed to operate at 1 ohm (or whatever impedance)...

Did he say something like "it's not stable at x ohms"?? Did you know how many ohms you were running the setup at and what your amp was stable at?

--

EDIT: I assumed SVC subs for impedance calculations because I am unfamiliar with the model you are talking about....if they were DVC 4 ohm and voice coils themselves were wired in parallel, then impedance would be 1/2 ohms.... if they were DVC 2 ohm per VC w/ VCs wired in parallel and subs wired in parallel, THEN you would have a impedance of 1/4 ohm. Not sure how that guy figured a 1/4 ohm impedance (assuming he was talking about nominal)...

[QUOTE=fredmr39]I was just on my way out so I don't know anything about the models/setup you used... but it sounds like you were trying to drive 4 subs off a single amp. Was that amp stable down at 1 ohm? If you have them all wired in parallel, total impedance would be (.25+.25+.25+.25)^(-1) => 1 Ohm

In series if would be 4+4+4+4 = 16 ohms.....

Those results should kinda explain themselves if I understand the setup correctly.


Yes 4 drivers (15 inch) off of one amp that is only stable in 4 ohms mono.
{The speakers where the Kicker C-15 SVC 4 ohm }

I think they mentioned with the amount of wireing and when the drives start to really work hard the ohms will drop and that would somwtimes clip the amp.?

Can you link me to the actual amp model? If it was only stable down to 4 Ohms as you said...why were you trying to run it down at 1 ohm?

EDIT: I see...you knew it wasn't stable there and ran it that way anyway -- and now want to know exactly WHY it wont work?

Can you link me to the actual amp model? If it was only stable down to 4 Ohms as you said...why were you trying to run it down at 1 ohm?

EDIT: I see...you knew it wasn't stable there and ran it that way anyway -- and now want to know exactly WHY it wont work?

I found out why I fried it, I'm just trying to figure out why the "ohmage" difference made such a HUGE impact on VOLUME since in 16 ohms the efficency of the speaker should be better and in my setup sounded worse than when I killed the amp and it sounded even better in 1 ohm than 4 :)

I found out why I fried it, I'm just trying to figure out why the "ohmage" difference made such a HUGE impact on VOLUME since in 16 ohms the efficency of the speaker should be better and in my setup sounded worse than when I killed the amp and it sounded even better in 1 ohm than 4 :)
Well you were demanding way too much from your amp at such a low impedance (though a lot ARE stable down to one ohm........I still have no idea how he gave you a 1/4 ohms figure (assuming nominal))....

The lower the impedance (resistance or "load") an amplifier sees, the more power it produces - transistor response/heatsink/inner workings of the amp can only put out so much depending on their design.... your amp simply could not handle it. The reason your amp was producing more power is simple due to ohms law...P = I V = I^(2) R = V^(2)/R..... As seen in the equation and mentioned earlier I believe, resistance goes down (in this case...AC resistance ("impedance")) causing power to rise. If you want a more technical answer, I will type one out later or WhiteBird00 or TA guy I'm sure would gladly explain more :)

Well you were demanding way too much from your amp at such a low impedance (though a lot ARE stable down to one ohm........I still have no idea how he gave you a 1/4 ohms figure (assuming nominal))....

The lower the impedance (resistance or "load") an amplifier sees, the more power it produces - transistor response/inner workings of the amp can only put out so much depending on their design.... your amp simply could not handle it. The reason your amp was producing more power is simple due to ohms law...P = I V = I^(2) R = V^(2)/R..... As seen in the equation and mentioned earlier I believe, resistance goes down (in this case...AC resistance ("impedance")) causing power to rise. If you want a more technical answer, I will type one out later or WhiteBird00 or TA guy I'm sure would gladly explain more :)

>>>>>

I think you covered it fine, I just thought the way TA guy was explaining it the amount of ohms an amp sees based on the same setup would be negligable from a performance standpoint.

Anyway, I'm getting this thread off topic.... :lurk:

Is there a way to put a midrange in place of the sub? I know i can put a mid there, but how would i make it produce that sound unlike the sub.

Is there a way to put a midrange in place of the sub? I know i can put a mid there, but how would i make it produce that sound unlike the sub.

I'm not sure, but I think the sails are already crossed over for low freqs only from the factory amp. ( below mid range )

If you hooked up a mid range to the sail amp wires it will sound like junk and probably kill it. :)




BT

Is there a way to put a midrange in place of the sub? I know i can put a mid there, but how would i make it produce that sound unlike the sub.
Don't quote me on this...but I believe mid bass frequencies are still sent to the "sub" since the really aren't "subs".....I know it is filtered, I am just unsure of the exact specs... I might turn that into another project..

If you wanted just midbass there I think there is enough of the lower frequency range for that to be made possible... what were you thinking of as midbass? 100-300 hz or so?

You could use an aftermarket amp...or maybe even HU. Aftermarket amps/HU, midbasses and a sub- is that what you are looking at? Bandpassing that crossover setup might be tricky....or impossible on most amps and HUs... There are amps though with ability to bandpass freqs for a decent portion of the range. Another way would be to use active filters/sound processors.

EDIT: sorry........................I realize now you were looking for midrange and NOT midbass. Refer to the post above this one for your answer. You will not be able to do this using the wires that lead there. If you don't want the hatch speakers though you can always pull those wires forward and do whatever you like. I see you have a Firebird...so the hatch speakers are components. You could always us the signal from the midrange on those to power midrange speakers you put in the sail. The higher quality speakers you use and the fact that it would be closer to you would probably be enough, IMO.

Don't quote me on this...but I believe mid bass frequencies are still sent to the "sub" since the really aren't "subs".....I know it is filtered, I am just unsure of the exact specs... I might turn that into another project..

If you wanted just midbass there I think there is enough of the lower frequency range for that to be made possible... what were you thinking of as midbass? 100-300 hz or so?

You could use an aftermarket amp...or maybe even HU. Aftermarket amps/HU, midbasses and a sub- is that what you are looking at? Bandpassing that crossover setup might be tricky....or impossible on most amps and HUs... There are amps though with ability to bandpass freqs for a decent portion of the range. Another way would be to use active filters/sound processors.

EDIT: sorry........................I realize now you were looking for midrange and NOT midbass. Refer to the post above this one for your answer. You will not be able to do this using the wires that lead there. If you don't want the hatch speakers though you can always pull those wires forward and do whatever you like. I see you have a Firebird...so the hatch speakers are components. You could always us the signal from the midrange on those to power midrange speakers you put in the sail. The higher quality speakers you use and the fact that it would be closer to you would probably be enough, IMO.


>>>>
I'm not really sure but I think he would like to use the OEM amp for volume rather than the "wire pull though" ( which would work, although It should be a full signal at less volume (watts), that would need a passive cross and a cap for true "mid".

I thought about the "pull through" but I just didn't want to go down that road. :drive:

Just my 2 cents...

>>>>
I'm not really sure but I think he would like to use the OEM amp for volume rather than the "wire pull though" ( which would work, although It should be a full signal at less volume (watts), that would need a passive cross and a cap for true "mid".

I thought about the "pull through" but I just didn't want to go down that road. :drive:

Just my 2 cents...
Still assuming mid-range rather than mid-bass:

He would still be using the factory amp. If he want midrange sounds - the best way to get that with the factory amp at that location IMO is to pull wires from the HATCH midrange components he has there (Firebirds have a separate tweeter and midrange component in the back unlike the Camaro....so the signal would divided already, and a 4 ohm load is what the factory mid component in the back is so that would be fine too)....of course he would lose the hatch speakers, but it would bring the midrange closer and he would have higher quality speakers there so it would/should make a difference.

Still assuming mid-range rather than mid-bass:

He would still be using the factory amp. If he want midrange sounds - the best way to get that with the factory amp at that location IMO is to pull wires from the HATCH midrange components he has there (Firebirds have a separate tweeter and midrange component in the back unlike the Camaro....so the signal would divided already, and a 4 ohm load is what the factory mid component in the back is so that would be fine too)....of course he would lose the hatch speakers, but it would bring the midrange closer and he would have higher quality speakers there so it would/should make a difference.



>>>>
He would still be using the factory amp.
>>>>
The rear hatch speakers get amplification from another amp or is it the same one for the sails?

Do the sail panel speakers get the same watts as the back thunder pumpers. :)

>>>>
He would still be using the factory amp.
>>>>
The rear hatch speakers get amplification from another amp or is it the same one for the sails?

Do the sail panel speakers get the same watts as the back thunder pumpers. :)
The tweeters in the Firebird (front and hatch) are powered by the HU, while the midbass portion of those components as well as the sail "subs" are powered by the Monsoon amp.

No...it is roughly guessed that the sail "subs" get 300 watts peak per pair (150 watts peak each).......the rest is probably something like 125-150 for the doors and 50-75 for the hatch area......who knows, but the "subs" in the rear sails get the most power.

Also, doors are definied as the front most speakers, hatch speakers as the rear most (in the hatch area behind the rearmost seat), and sail panel speakers being those aligned WITH the rear seats (the "subs", or I guess as you say...more commonly known as the "thunder pumpers").

The tweeters in the Firebird (front and hatch) are powered by the HU, while the midbass portion of those components as well as the sail "subs" are powered by the Monsoon amp.

No...it is roughly guessed that the sail "subs" get 300 watts peak per pair (150 watts peak each).......the rest is probably something like 125-150 for the doors and 50-75 for the hatch area......who knows, but the "subs" in the rear sails get the most power.

Also, doors are definied as the front most speakers, hatch speakers as the rear most (in the hatch area behind the rearmost seat), and sail panel speakers being those aligned WITH the rear seats (the "subs", or I guess as you say...more commonly known as the "thunder pumpers").

>>>


......who knows, but the "subs" in the rear sails get the most power.

>>>>
very true,


(the "subs", or I guess as you say...more commonly known as the "thunder pumpers").[/QUOTE]

Naw, I totally meant the rear hatch area. I just meant there is no justice there for performance, with any speaker at any time with OEM VOLUME for any reason other than adding an amp to the mix. :judge:


EDIT: for mid base replacement in the sails with oem volume/watts :)


Edit II: with a nice usage of MID range. :chug:

So basically you would need to get a new Amp, and maybe rewire the stereo(speaker wire)? (inline filter)

So basically you would need to get a new Amp, and maybe rewire the stereo(speaker wire)? (inline filter)
No, you don't need a new amp. If you want to put midrange speakers (or even a coax full range) in the sail panel area next to the seats you can do it and still use the factory amp. However, you will have to disconnect the hatch speakers and use their wiring to connect your new speakers. That's because the factory sail panel speakers get only a low (bass) signal that would not drive your midrange or coax. This is not really "rewiring" - it's quite simple to disconnect the hatch speaker wires and just pull them forward to the sail panels. You might have to add a little of your own wire to avoid having to untape the harness but that's about all the modification necessary.

If you want to put replacement speakers in the hatch area - give your head a shake. There's no reason to put anything new back there because it's just fill sound anyway.

I had my Zeus hooked up to 4 15's in an Rx-7, ( many years ago ) I hooked up all 4 C-15's 4 ohm in parrallel, I think the guy at HiFonics ( after I fried the amp over time (( it was so hot you couldn't even touch it! ) said I was probably gicing the amp a 1/4 ohm load.)

It ROCKED very hard untill the amp would shut down after 30 minutes or so... thermal protection until I finnaly cooked it and had to send it in for repair to get it fixed.

The guys were nice enough to send me a wireing diagram to set it up for a 4 ohm load after I burned it up. ( series back to parallel )

It sounded good and would run cooler but it didn't have the authority if you will as it did when in 1/4 ohm all parallel.

I tried all 4 in series to ( test a theory ) and it was weak and muddy with no authority at all. (sucked actually). I thought it was pretty weak for 4 15's.

So my final question for anyone would be, if "ohmage" doesn't really matter and speakers are more effiecent with a higher ohm load, WTF happend with my setup. :eek2:

Any takers?

I'll sit back and let the sparks fly, ( jumping into flame retardent suit ) :)


When I said that output between a simgle 4 ohm vs an 8 ohm driver "all else equal" driven by the same amp, I was referring to driver design. What you are talking about is wiring configurations. BIG difference. My arguement in driver design is that the length of wire in the magnetic gap for a 8ohm driver is twice the length in a 4ohm driver. Double the impedance means double the length of wire. If you revisit the equation I gave you earlier, you can see that the efficiency increases as the impedance rises. This is oversimplified but thats the gist of it.

What you are talking about it using the same woofers in different configurations, and in that case more power is always going to be louder. Until something breaks anyway.

As to your various configurations, I don't know what your actual power was, so just picked a round number for illustrative purposes.
1000w@1ohm reference level
500w@2ohms -3db
250w@4ohms -6db
125w@8ohms -9db
62.5w@16ohms -12db

so when you were wired for a 4ohm load you were down 6db, which sounds significantly quieter, and at 16ohms you were down 12db, which would sound under half as loud. The other thing to consider is when the level of the bass is noticable below that of the rest of the frequency range, you will percieve it as being even quieter than it really is.

So power does matter, except for when it dosen't, clear as mud eh?

As to your various configurations, I don't know what your actual power was, so just picked a round number for illustrative purposes.
1000w@1ohm reference level
500w@2ohms -3db
250w@4ohms -6db
125w@8ohms -9db
62.5w@16ohms -12db

so when you were wired for a 4ohm load you were down 6db, which sounds significantly quieter, and at 16ohms you were down 12db, which would sound under half as loud. The other thing to consider is when the level of the bass is noticable below that of the rest of the frequency range, you will percieve it as being even quieter than it really is.
Using your example, going from 1-ohm to 4-ohm causes a 6dB drop in volume which is cutting the volume in half (for the average ear at mid-range/vocal frequencies). Going to 16-ohms causes an overall drop of 12dB which the average ear hears as 1/4 the original volume. Also, at 16-ohms he had probably reduced the power to the point where he was underdriving the subs causing them to sound bad as well as quiet.

When I said that output between a simgle 4 ohm vs an 8 ohm driver "all else equal" driven by the same amp, I was referring to driver design. What you are talking about is wiring configurations. BIG difference. My arguement in driver design is that the length of wire in the magnetic gap for a 8ohm driver is twice the length in a 4ohm driver. Double the impedance means double the length of wire. If you revisit the equation I gave you earlier, you can see that the efficiency increases as the impedance rises. This is oversimplified but thats the gist of it.

What you are talking about it using the same woofers in different configurations, and in that case more power is always going to be louder. Until something breaks anyway.

As to your various configurations, I don't know what your actual power was, so just picked a round number for illustrative purposes.
1000w@1ohm reference level
500w@2ohms -3db
250w@4ohms -6db
125w@8ohms -9db
62.5w@16ohms -12db

so when you were wired for a 4ohm load you were down 6db, which sounds significantly quieter, and at 16ohms you were down 12db, which would sound under half as loud. The other thing to consider is when the level of the bass is noticable below that of the rest of the frequency range, you will percieve it as being even quieter than it really is.

So power does matter, except for when it dosen't, clear as mud eh?


>>>>
Actually that makes sense.

Using your figures above for reference then if it's true that there is a 3 db loss in volume ( 1/4 of the sound volume being lost ) going from 2 ohms to 4 ohms and a loss of 250 watts from the amp...

Then to get the same volume as in 2 ohms I would need to either replace that speaker with a 4 ohm speaker that is 3db higher in sensitvity to make up for the loss of wattage ( or ) leave it at 4 ohms and grab an amp that has an increase of 250 watts?

The pool is getting muddy again... :eek2:

So if this is correct, then when replacing the sail panel speakers to obtain the same volume as the oem speakers produce in 2 ohms, I would need either a 4 ohm speaker that has a 3 db higher sensitivity than the oem unit to make up for the lack of wattage to get the voulme back to stock or (modify) the amp to have 1/4 more power with the 4ohm speaker that has the same sensitivity as the oem unit???

I guess I just still don't get the whole idea, also since the higher ohmage of a speaker has more windings on the coil, wouldn't that hinder sensitvity purely based on the extra weight factor alone, ( I know we are not talking a pound ), but it's still weight the driver has to be able to control correct?



Am I just looking at it from the wireing perspective again? :eek2:

>>>>
Actually that makes sense.

Using your figures above for reference then if it's true that there is a 3 db loss in volume ( 1/4 of the sound volume being lost ) going from 2 ohms to 4 ohms and a loss of 250 watts from the amp...

Um, not 1/4 of the sound, but yes 3db loss due to the power being cut in half, assuming the 2 and 4ohm load have the same (1W@1M) sensitivity rating. If both drivers have the same (2.83Vrms@1M) sensitivity rating, then there will be no difference in SPL when you cut the power in half. If you don't know which rating you are looking at, then it is a useless number.

Then to get the same volume as in 2 ohms I would need to either replace that speaker with a 4 ohm speaker that is 3db higher in sensitvity to make up for the loss of wattage ( or ) leave it at 4 ohms and grab an amp that has an increase of 250 watts?

For (1W@1M) ratings, You got it

So if this is correct, then when replacing the sail panel speakers to obtain the same volume as the oem speakers produce in 2 ohms, I would need either a 4 ohm speaker that has a 3 db higher sensitivity than the oem unit to make up for the lack of wattage to get the voulme back to stock

Theoretically Yes. But again you must understand sensitivity as more than just a single spec for that to be useful, especially for subwoofers. Typically the lower a driver will play in a given enclosure, the lower the sensitivity number will be, however, the driver with the lower sensitivity quite often will play a 40Hz (note: there is nothing special about 40Hz, this it just for illustrative purposes) note louder that the driver with the higher sensitivity even though they are both being given the same amount of power. Also how the driver performes on the low end will vary based on the application. So in short, don't worry about the sensitivity.

or (modify) the amp to have 1/4 more power with the 4ohm speaker that has the same sensitivity as the oem unit???

No, Double the power.

I guess I just still don't get the whole idea, also since the higher ohmage of a speaker has more windings on the coil, wouldn't that hinder sensitvity purely based on the extra weight factor alone, ( I know we are not talking a pound ), but it's still weight the driver has to be able to control correct?

The extra windings in the magnetic gap are able to produce more force with less power, thus the increase in sensitivity. Yes the moving mass would go up a smidge "all else being equal", but the increase in moving mass is not nearly as significant as the extra force created by the higher magnetic force.

wow...over 1,100 views in 12 days!! Thanks!!!

---

************************************************
************************************************
*********ADDITIONAL eD Eu-700 INFORMATION*********
************************************************
************************************************
************************************************


VENTED POLE / SPACE BEHIND SPEAKER

Drilling the hole as illustrated in the pictures above is NOT necessary. The minimum required space that there should be behind this port, or "vented pole", is .25". If you use a .25" spacer, that is not enough room.....however, if you use a .50" spacer, there is obviously at least .25" of space behind the speaker. IF you for some reason CANNOT use a .5" spacer or drill a hole with a smaller spacer...do the best you can. Drill at least a small hole, and space it as far as possible.

^NOTE: Having LESS than .25" of space behind the speaker, or even completely plugging up the port will NOT cause any physical damage to the speaker. The only thing that would/could suffer is sound quality. Plugging it entirely can create some odd back pressure that would DEFINITELY be noticeable in a ported box, and may actually end up being audible in a sealed enclosure as well. I do not know how it would affect the sound in an infinite baffle application.

***Pole vents are commonly used as means of cooling (speaker motion dissipates heat away from the voice coil and magnet steel). Pole vents also are the most common method for relieving pressure buildup (under a dust cap/diaphragm). The latter reason is why it can affect sound...and though it WOULD aid in heat dissipation, heat is dissipated other ways and on this particular speaker, according to eD, it shouldn't make a difference as far as heat dissipation.


---

FREQUENCY RESPONSE

Frequency response on the drivers is 20Hz~500Hz.

If you plan to use them as a dedicated midbass - I would cross them over somewhere around 250Hz.

---

SENSITIVITY

SPL: 85 dB is @ 1W/1m

---

ADDITIONAL SPACER INFORMATION

If you or nobody you know has the materials/tools to make a spacer, Elemental Designs can custom fabricate one http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php?cPath=1_43
(they have a separate custom ring building page there...but don't really get the options you would need -- you would have to email them and tell them specifically what you want...shouldn't be a problem)

OR

http://www.able-audio.com/
also custom fabricates rings/spacers....I'm sure many others do as well.

--Sorry I do not have exact dimensions because the outer radius is not a perfect circle...so measure the largest outer radius that will fit, and keep the inner radius the same as the hole that is already present (or to speaker specs).

--Spacers do not have to be MDF also... I looked around at the Home Depot and a good choice seemed to be .5" foam in building materials....but that was a HUGE piece and too expensive (under $20...but still). Harder foams would be nice because it would be easier to fit since it gives a little, and you would be able to cut it to size with a razor. I thought about sheet rubber or thick rubber matting (like that used as weight lifting flooring). Another specific type of foam I have seen used as spacers before is foam core. http://www.matcutter.com/catalog.php?catid=2&styleid=1
or
http://www.framingsupplies.com/MatB...d/FoamBoard.htm
or
http://www.pearlpaint.com/shop_sear...=foam&Submit=Go
or
any arts and crafts store probably - just make sure it's .2-.5" thick (.5" thick if you do not plan on drilling a hole behind the speaker for the vented pole).

alright that's all...I'm out of bookmarked links!

SPL: 85 dB is @ 1W/1m
>>>>

oo oo, I think TA Guy mentioned something about lower would be better for a sub.
I could be confusing the ohm thing again though, so...

Anyway, I decided to try this whole Elemental project as described by Fred as best I can. I'm going to do my best to follow it to the letter.

I ordered 2 D4's for replacement of the sails, I after the install I will report back to you guys how I think it sounds.

I know you can't ask much from a 6.5 "Woofer" but those specs for some reason are starting to grow on me. :)

SPL: 85 dB is @ 1W/1m
>>>>

oo oo, I think TA Guy mentioned something about lower would be better for a sub.
Not better....just that it's not common to have high sensitivity ratings on a sub. Most are in the area of 84-86 dB @ 1W/1m.

Um, not 1/4 of the sound, but yes 3db loss due to the power being cut in half, assuming the 2 and 4ohm load have the same (1W@1M) sensitivity rating. B T, you have the right idea - it's just that the decibel scale for measuring volume (sound pressure level) is not linear - it's logarithmic. So, even though a 6dB reduction equates to about half the volume, a 3dB drop doesn't equate to a 1/4 of the volume. However, I will often use values similar to that just for illustration purposes because it makes it easier to demonstrate the effect of power changes.

If both drivers have the same (2.83Vrms@1M) sensitivity rating, then there will be no difference in SPL when you cut the power in half. If you don't know which rating you are looking at, then it is a useless number.
This sentence confuses me, I think something is missing from your statement. Obviously reducing power by half will have an impact on volume (-3dB) if sensitivity and everything else is equal.

I have a couple questions....

1. I looked at the elemental website on these speakers, is that $75 for just ONE speaker or is it a pair??

2. What do you use to cut the round hole in the metal behind the speaker?

3. Can someone kind of explain the difference between midbass and midrange speakers? The stock speakers are considered mibass speakers right? Have you all determined if these speakers are good mibass speakers or are they just more of a small sub? Will these have a more "full" sound if you use the speaker wires from the hatch (in a camaro)???

I have a couple questions....

1. I looked at the elemental website on these speakers, is that $75 for just ONE speaker or is it a pair??

2. What do you use to cut the round hole in the metal behind the speaker?

3. Can someone kind of explain the difference between midbass and midrange speakers? The stock speakers are considered mibass speakers right? Have you all determined if these speakers are good mibass speakers or are they just more of a small sub? Will these have a more "full" sound if you use the speaker wires from the hatch (in a camaro)???
had a bit in the center and a cutting pattern on the outside (circular). If yo1. Price is per speaker (singular).

2. You could use a 1" drill bit (or larger if you have one...don't go out and purchase one just for this though...they are about $30). I happened to have a hole saw - however, if you use a .5" spacer...the hole is not necessary.

carbide tipped hole saw
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/CarbideTippedHoleSawcopy.jpg

3. Frequency spectrum we can hear is approximately 20Hz - 20,000Hz

Mid-range speakers typically reproduce frequencies between 300Hz - 5,000Hz.

Mid-bass speakers can be any lower frequencies like 250Hz-500Hz, or lower ranges....whatever the listener likes. Either way, they stay in the lower bass range while midrange speakers cover much more of the range/higher frequencies.

obviously this is VERY general...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/Wooferzone.jpg

IMO...they are MORE of a small sub than mid-bass speakers. They will however cover all of the mid-bass frequencies that the stock speaker covered (obviously), but their range just extends down lower and they hit harder compared to stock. Pulling the hatch signals forward would not be a good idea, since it would only reproduce frequencies up to about 500Hz anyway....

If both drivers have the same (2.83Vrms@1M) sensitivity rating, then there will be no difference in SPL when you cut the power in half. If you don't know which rating you are looking at, then it is a useless number.

This sentence confuses me, I think something is missing from your statement. Obviously reducing power by half will have an impact on volume (-3dB) if sensitivity and everything else is equal.

The 2.83Vrms@1M is a very commonly used sensitivity measurment, it corrisponds to 1W@8ohms, 2W@4ohms, or 8W@2ohms. This is very often used as it by manufacturers as it is a ligitimate way to advertise a higher sensitivity number. Like I said, you have to know what you are looking at or it is a useless number.

If both drivers have the same (2.83Vrms@1M) sensitivity rating, then there will be no difference in SPL when you cut the power in half. If you don't know which rating you are looking at, then it is a useless number.



The 2.83Vrms@1M is a very commonly used sensitivity measurment, it corrisponds to 1W@8ohms, 2W@4ohms, or 8W@2ohms. This is very often used as it by manufacturers as it is a ligitimate way to advertise a higher sensitivity number. Like I said, you have to know what you are looking at or it is a useless number.
Okay, I think we're saying the same thing. If you have two speakers with the same efficiency and the same impedance then cutting the power by half will reduce volume by 3dB. If you have two speakers of the same efficiency but one is half the impedance then you can run half the power through the lower impedance speaker and get the same SPL as the higher impedance speaker.

I am extremely interested in doing this conversion as my stock sail panels are blown.
Is there any simple guide/instruction you could give on making the 1/4" spacer? That's my main concern. I don't have any saws, just mechanical tools. (Wrenches/sockets)

I'd be willing to purchase one if they could be pre-made easily.

I am extremely interested in doing this conversion as my stock sail panels are blown.
Is there any simple guide/instruction you could give on making the 1/4" spacer? That's my main concern. I don't have any saws, just mechanical tools. (Wrenches/sockets)

I'd be willing to purchase one if they could be pre-made easily.
No buddies or anything that can lend you a jig saw? I have a post somewhere I'll find with places you can buy pre made spacers, but they are circular...and the place you are putting them in isn't exactly a perfect circle and I do not know exact dimensions (and am not by this car for a month or so)... so what I'm saying is - even if you get one pre-made, it would probably require modification. Dimensions for the speaker can be found in the speaker link in post #1.

There is another option that may work better for you. Spacers have been successfully made with a foam core material, and all you would need to shape that is a box cutter or knife.

EDIT: See post below.

ADDITIONAL SPACER INFORMATION

If you or nobody you know has the materials/tools to make a spacer, Elemental Designs can custom fabricate one http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php?cPath=1_43
(they have a separate custom ring building page there...but don't really get the options you would need -- you would have to email them and tell them specifically what you want...shouldn't be a problem)

OR

http://www.able-audio.com/
also custom fabricates rings/spacers....I'm sure many others do as well.

--Sorry I do not have exact dimensions because the outer radius is not a perfect circle...so measure the largest outer radius that will fit, and keep the inner radius the same as the hole that is already present (or to speaker specs).

--Spacers do not have to be MDF also... I looked around at the Home Depot and a good choice seemed to be .5" foam in building materials....but that was a HUGE piece and too expensive (under $20...but still). Harder foams would be nice because it would be easier to fit since it gives a little, and you would be able to cut it to size with a razor. I thought about sheet rubber or thick rubber matting (like that used as weight lifting flooring). Another specific type of foam I have seen used as spacers before is foam core. http://www.matcutter.com/catalog.php?catid=2&styleid=1
or
http://www.framingsupplies.com/MatB...d/FoamBoard.htm
or
http://www.pearlpaint.com/shop_sear...=foam&Submit=Go
or
any arts and crafts store probably - just make sure it's .2-.5" thick (.5" thick if you do not plan on drilling a hole behind the speaker for the vented pole).

alright that's all...I'm out of bookmarked links!

Not better....just that it's not common to have high sensitivity ratings on a sub. Most are in the area of 84-86 dB @ 1W/1m.
>>>

Be serious. :)


http://www.planetaudiousa.com/home/catalog/public_html/catalog.php?sNs=1&deptNum=4&catNum=20


update: still waiting on speaks, (very patient, I am)


>>>>

edit: we are in the 6.5 territory, opps :)

Update on install:

Cliff notes: D2's arrived 2 days ago.

I got the flu. :judge:

I have one side installed and I will be running both in one ohm.

I decide probably against better judgement, (flu) I didn't want to wait another week or so to exchance them for D4's, so...

I felt a little better today and decide I would use the D2's and see what happens anyway. :chug:

Tomorrow I will try the drivers side install.

After a small sound test, I think I like what I hear, compared to 2 oem sail speaks...

Please feel let me guys know what you think about using the D2's in 1 ohm vs the D4's in 2 ohm.

Btw, my sail oem speakers ohms each were 1.8 ohm on my meter when I checked it after I pulled it out.


I need a motrin again.... :bang:

Update on install:

Cliff notes: D2's arrived 2 days ago.

I got the flu. :judge:

I have one side installed and I will be running both in one ohm.

I decide probably against better judgement, (flu) I didn't want to wait another week or so to exchance them for D4's, so...

I felt a little better today and decide I would use the D2's and see what happens anyway. :chug:

Tomorrow I will try the drivers side install.

After a small sound test, I think I like what I hear, compared to 2 oem sail speaks...

Please feel let me guys know what you think about using the D2's in 1 ohm vs the D4's in 2 ohm.

Btw, my sail oem speakers ohms each were 1.8 ohm on my meter when I checked it after I pulled it out.


I need a motrin again.... :bang:

2 ohm impedance is a nominal/max impedance....also not the same thing as resistance...it's more like AC resistance, as you need to account for frequency, etc... A quick internet search will give a much better answer sorry for the laziness..

I still recommend that you send back for the D4s..

It is never a good idea to run an amp with speakers of less impedance than what the amp was designed to handle. You can use speakers of greater impedance but never less than what the amp is rated as stable.

The reason is that increasing impedance (say, replacing 2-ohm with 4-ohm) cuts power but it also reduces current flow so the amp has no problem handling it. On the other hand, reducing impedance (as with replacing 2-ohm with 1-ohm) increases current flow and hence heat generated. This will often be more than the output stage of the amp can handle and will result in serious damage to the amp (as in "letting all the smoke out of the chips").

I agree with fredmr39 - you would be far better off to be patient and exchange the D2s for a pair of D4s. In the long run you will be thankful that you don't have to replace both the amp and the speakers.

I placed an order on the 29th for two D4s.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like they've shipped yet. Although the "Your product has shipped." email came from ED on the 30th, the tracking number still shows "Status: Billing Information Received" on the UPS website.

I hope to get them soon. I'm eager to do this install.

I placed an order on the 29th for two D4s.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like they've shipped yet. Although the "Your product has shipped." email came from ED on the 30th, the tracking number still shows "Status: Billing Information Received" on the UPS website.

I hope to get them soon. I'm eager to do this install.
>>>>

When I recieved my order, the address label had the return address as "RETURNS DEPT" and a phone number under neath it, then the company address.

I tried to call the "RETURNS DEPT" many times and it was a "DISCONNECTED" number.

weird.

I placed an order on the 29th for two D4s.

Unfortunately it doesn't look like they've shipped yet. Although the "Your product has shipped." email came from ED on the 30th, the tracking number still shows "Status: Billing Information Received" on the UPS website.

I hope to get them soon. I'm eager to do this install.
Have they shipped? Keep us updated... you should have them by now - not sure why the status says that or why you might not have them, I never had time to check the order status because I live in IL and got them the next day.

Have they shipped? Keep us updated... you should have them by now - not sure why the status says that or why you might not have them, I never had time to check the order status because I live in IL and got them the next day.

Status: In Transit - Rescheduled
Rescheduled Delivery: 02/08/2007

I ordered on the 1/29, they sent me the shipped email on 1/30, I check tracking everyday and nothing but billing information, so I "chat" with ED's Live Sales support on their website.

That person tells me that they're running behind on those speakers because they have to pass quality control twice before shipping, and they didn't have a lot pre-tested on hand.

He said my package was on their UPS outgoing table and should ship that day. (2/2). On 2/3 I checked the UPS status and it does show that it shipped on 2/2.

Hopefully they're worth the wait!

Cliffs:
Order on 1/29
Receive ship notification with tracking on 1/30
Call on 2/2 to find out what's going on, package ships that day.
Re-Scheduled Delivery of 2/08.

Thanks for the update - it make no sense to me how they don't have enough "Pre-tested"....it is possible I guess MAYBE since they just had recent price changes that affected them so a lot of people have been getting orders out before February 1st... ??? Who knows.....I hate waiting for stuff though - hope you get them soon.

Update on install Vol.3:

Grossman, sucks! :judge:


I finally had enough energy to install the drivers side tonight.
I found it a little tricky installing these speakers safely without removing the sails panels and rear side panels.

So I chose to remove mine, ( which takes no time for me to remove and reinstall both sides ) to have extra space for drilling the 1 1/2 inch hole and I wanted the extra "play room".

These speakers come with a clear hard plastic cover placed on top of the cone for protection.
This clear cover happens to be nearly the exact deminsions of the spacers you need to make.

I chose 3/8 crap plywood, ( it was pretty fragile, but I was able to use a jigsaw with a fine metal blade and it went fairly smoothly :eyes: )

For those making their own spacer, you can place the cover onto your choice of material and use a pencil/ pen and trace around the outside diameter, then flip the cover over, center/ eyeball and center it inside the circle your just made.
Press down firmly on the cover so it doesn't move and trace around the inner most circle of the cover.

You should end up with two circles, one inside the other with about 5/8 space between the two circles.

Cut out the center of the small circle and then cut around the outer larger circle and you should end up with a very nice spacer.

You will have to cut a tiny side off of the circle ( maybe 1/8 to 1/4 cut across ) and that will be the "side" of the circle that will face the front of the car or door jam.

Now that it's a "D" ( the letter D is over kill for this example, but you will get the picture ), it should fit in place nicley after the cut.


I haven't reinstalled the panels yet so, the rear hatch fill speaks are still disconnected.
Anyway, I have a major bass problem now. :)

Even fadding full front and turning the bass down past middle by 1/4 seems to be really nice bass.

So far with a little listening at moderate volume, I haven't found any trouble yet with the D2's at 1 ohm.

I'll try and get everything back together tomorrow night, then see how it sounds after a few days of of getting used to the extra bass and let you guys now if I still have a working oem amp. :)

Just to clarify, It doesn't THUMP (much :drive: ), it's just the bass volume is so "full" and deeper.

So far I like it. :judge:

Update on install Vol.3:

Grossman, sucks! :judge:

yea wtf

Glad your install is going well - good advice on the spacer -- I had no idea how they came packaged - my brother just handed me the speakers.

You know how I feel about the 1 ohm impedance thing though....I fear for your amp, and hope this doesn't turn into a disaster. You could always wire the VCs in series if things start to seem "wrong".....or return them - haha. OR...if you get really bored when you wire up the other side you can wire it in series and just hold it in place and let us know how much of a difference the impedance makes.

> : - >

yea wtf

Glad your install is going well - good advice on the spacer -- I had no idea how they came packaged - my brother just handed me the speakers.

You know how I feel about the 1 ohm impedance thing though....I fear for your amp, and hope this doesn't turn into a disaster. You could always wired the VCs in series if things start to seem "wrong".....or return them - haha. OR...if you get really bored when you wire up the other side you can wire it in series and just hold it in place and let us know how much of a difference the impedance makes.

> : - >
>>>>

You know how I feel about the 1 ohm impedance thing though....
>>>
I got it np. :)

You could always wired the VCs in series
>>>
be serious! :)


...if you get really bored when you wire up the other side you can wire it in series and just hold it in place and let us know how much of a difference the impedance makes.
>>>>
Either I misread this, or you should send me the diagram. :judge:


Both sides are wired now and working fine. :chug:

You could always wire the VCs in series
>>>
be serious! :)


...if you get really bored when you wire up the other side you can wire it in series and just hold it in place and let us know how much of a difference the impedance makes.
>>>>
Either I misread this, or you should send me the diagram. :judge:


Both sides are wired now and working fine. :chug:
Come on I said if things really start to seem like they're going wrong with the amp in the future after the part you quoted. I admire you're bravery in wiring D2s in parallel with the Monsoon amp.

And you might have misread...not sure - but forget it either way didn't know both were in. I was just suggesting wiring the VCs in parallel rather than in series to compare the 1 ohm impedance vs the 4 ohm impedance.

Come on I said if things really start to seem like they're going wrong with the amp in the future after the part you quoted. I admire you're bravery in wiring D2s in parallel with the Monsoon amp.
>>>>
If things start to sound funky, yea, I might try series.

No bravery hear my friend. ( I've hurt worse! ) monty python lol

Yes, both D2's are in one ohmage, ( checked with my meter prior to install )

The overall bass sound ( volume level) is incredible with these so far. :)

The overall bass sound ( volume level) is incredible with these so far. :)

Wow, now I'm really wanting them to get here. Thanks for the heads up on the spacer creation too.

I love writeups on camaros!

Come on I said if things really start to seem like they're going wrong with the amp in the future after the part you quoted. I admire you're bravery in wiring D2s in parallel with the Monsoon amp.
>>>>
If things start to sound funky, yea, I might try series.
>>>>

OK, today on the way to work I noticed the same problem again I had with oem sails.

It had really good punch and volume with lower volume settingss, but the D2's started to get quiter as I increased the volume control. But worse than the oems.



I have rewired the dvc to let the amp see 4 ohms for both sides now.
It's lost some low volume punch but I will find out tomorrow on the way to work if they sound louder now at higher volume.

The stock system seems to reduce power going to the sails as the volume is increased. ( at least on my system ) :bang:

So for any more testing I'm leaving all the other controls set to middle. ( for some reason my sails are getting quieter when I add more bass past middle and start increasing the volume control past half.. :eek2:

Argggggggggggh!

They still sound really good in 4 ohm though.
I'll find out tommorow.

The stock system seems to reduce power going to the sails as the volume is increased. ( at least on my system ) :bang:

So for any more testing I'm leaving all the other controls set to middle. ( for some reason my sails are getting quieter when I add more bass past middle and start increasing the volume control past half.. :eek2:

Argggggggggggh!

They still sound really good in 4 ohm though.
I'll find out tommorow.

LOL....what you are hearing is completely NORMAL for a stock system and, in fact, for a lot of stock systems that have an AUTO loud circuit. When you are listening to it turned down the loud circuit is on, but as you turn it up it cancels the loud circuit so that you don't distort the tiny "subs" (sail panel drivers are our subs) we have in our cars. This is perfectly normal and there is nothing wrong with you system. Hell, my old entry level Nakamichi even had an auto loud circuit.

They do this mainly for people that can't tell when a driver is being pushed beyond it's limit. I know when I had my stock system, there's no way I could crank the bass up and turn it up very loud at all before I started hearing the driver distort or the amp clip. There's only so much you can do with the stock system.

LOL....what you are hearing is completely NORMAL for a stock system and, in fact, for a lot of stock systems that have an AUTO loud circuit. When you are listening to it turned down the loud circuit is on, but as you turn it up it cancels the loud circuit so that you don't distort the tiny "subs" (sail panel drivers are our subs) we have in our cars. This is perfectly normal and there is nothing wrong with you system. Hell, my old entry level Nakamichi even had an auto loud circuit.

They do this mainly for people that can't tell when a driver is being pushed beyond it's limit. I know when I had my stock system, there's no way I could crank the bass up and turn it up very loud at all before I started hearing the driver distort or the amp clip. There's only so much you can do with the stock system.

>>>
I thought that was the deal, I just wanted someone else to say it. :)

there's no way I could crank the bass up and turn it up very loud at all before I started hearing the driver distort or the amp clip.
>>>
I don't seem to be having either of those problems so far.
Just loss of bass volume.

But your correct, the stock system is hard to work with, I'm just trying to find the nice compromise.
OK, so where's that "auto loud circuit disable writeup". :judge:

My soldering gun is starting to twitch.... :chug:

Ok, mine came in today...

They're very well shipped, and when you open them, they're like little pieces of art. Beautiful pieces, no doubt.

I cut out my foam board for the spacer, and went out to my car. Since my speakers were long since blown (before I even bought the car) I took those speakers out and cut off the speaker wires. (I have a TA, so they were already 4ohm DVC speakers) I stripped some off of the end, and wired the speakers up with the super easy push terminals. At this point I went to my car to see how much clearence there really was..

There wasn't... The speakers are quite difficult to get in there, but I managed to connect the default "plug" to the stock plug/harness and put it in there without the spacer. This did take some doing, some pushing/pulling on the panel, but I got it in there.

..... Without the spacer. At this point I was thinking how difficult it would be to try and get that speaker in there with the panels still on, with a spacer in place, so I just left it. I drilled holes for where the speaker now sits, and screwed it snug. (I did not bend the speaker frame)

I tested the speakers, and they sound absolutely AWESOME. I know they would sound better if I installed them 100% correctly, but for the results I have, and the difference it was, I'm absolutely blown away.

If the speakers overheat/blow because I have the hole covered, so be-it. I'll be happy to purchase another set, as they're absolutely worth every penny.

As for B T's issue, well.. I have it too. The bass is definitely pronounced at lower levels, and continues to pound up around halfway (I would assume). At this point the highs take over and the subs stop getting much louder.

Cliffs:
Speakers are totally bad ass. Well worth the price. Easily improved my system by 100%.

Getting it in with a spacer takes some patience... .5" was doable with creative angles, I'd imagine a .25" spacer should cause too much trouble. I usually got the TOP part in under the sails first, and them pushed up while lifting the bottom up and over... some pulling of the lower sail may be necessary to create the couple mm extra you need. I found the passenger side harder for some reason, and took out one screw on the plastic door rail we run wires under, and was then able to pull the sail off partially at the door seam and that made for quick work after.

Glad the installs are going well though - I did not notice the volume issue actually - as my brother was controlling the volume most the time.... that's unfortunate though, considering how much more power these speakers would love to have. There's always the option of a separate amp in the future where ideally you could give them 125-250 wrms (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/elementaldesigns_7kv2chart.php)

As for the vented pole not having much space behind it -- .25" is preferred, but shouldn't be an issue. As mentioned in post 72 I think...it shouldn't cause any damage to the speaker as far as not cooling it/etc....especially with the wrms given by the factory amp. So for this application and speaker, it is more for relieving pressure buildup.

EDIT (because this doesn't deserve it's own post): thanks for over 2,000 views and 100+ replies in 34 days!

It's really not that bad, what I actually believe to be happening is that the power going to the subs continues to go up with the other speakers, but the other speakers are playing high notes which will always seem louder than low notes of equal or similar power.

A bigger amp would bridge this gap, but I don't know how necessary it is. I'm very happy with it as is.

i know whats next on my list...

i know whats next on my list...

You won't be disappointed.

Are these only available on www.edesignaudio.com (http://www.edesignaudio.com) ? What happened to Ebay pricing?

I'm glad you got them installed and like them. ( in 4 ohms the D2's sound better than stock btw. more on that later.)

I kinda figured you/ or anyone else would enjoy the extra range down low and much fuller bass volume. ( I could only imagine how these would sound in a box with active cross and seperate amp with some nice wattage. ) :)

..... Without the spacer. At this point I was thinking how difficult it would be to try and get that speaker in there with the panels still on, with a spacer in place,
>>>>

Are you saying you did not use a spacer?
I tried mine without and the rear side of the plastic mag cover would rest against the frame and I could not get it to "seat" flat and flush.

I also installed a small 2x2 inch piece on velcro, ( the soft side only ) onto the frame where the mag was resting on and not allowing the speaker to sit flush without at leat a 3/8 inch spacer, ( I was going to try a 1/2 inch but I was worried that the surround on the front ot the speaker would extend too far outward for the stock speaker cover without hitting it under higher volume levels....)

I know you say you didn't "bend" the speaker frame, but, perhaps you pulled the innner metal mounting panel "out" "bowing it" ???, I can see how that would work though....

Pardon me if I misunderstand this. :eek2:


Side note: testing amp temps at the sink ( with the most trans. ) { yes I opened mine up for a look see } :bang: in 4 ohms tonight

What would you guys consider the max temp should be at half volume usage over maybe 10 minutes?


Please be serious with you numbers, as this thing runs VERY hot in 4 ohms with the covers on and in the fender well. :)

Again, nice to hear there is another happy ED fan out there.

Are these only available on www.edesignaudio.com (http://www.edesignaudio.com) ? What happened to Ebay pricing?
Yes....sorry. Once in a while they have some REALLY good deals...those ended Feb 1st though, and most of their products prices went up due to material costs/the need to maintain quality/whatever. Even still...compared to most mid-bass/subs/etc with comparable specs, they're reasonably priced and well worth it.

EU-700s in the rear sails powered by stock amp and am/was NOT pleased with the results.
>>>
Just happen to check the polls...

Any chance the one person has checked in and let us know why "they" didn't like them?



thx

Mods, please sticky this thread.

It's something many of us will be doing in the near future.

Awesome writeup, and thanks for the effort !

I know you say you didn't "bend" the speaker frame, but, perhaps you pulled the innner metal mounting panel "out" "bowing it" ???, I can see how that would work though....

Pardon me if I misunderstand this.
>>>
please disregard this. I'm a non reading fool... :judge:

EU-700s in the rear sails powered by stock amp and am/was NOT pleased with the results.
>>>
Just happen to check the polls...

Any chance the one person has checked in and let us know why "they" didn't like them?



thx
I'm curious as well....I should have set poll results public so we could track down people and question them since some may never revisit this thread again....

I'm extremely impressed with these speakers. For 6.5's they do get very low.

I'm extremely impressed with these speakers. For 6.5's they do get very low.
>>>
..... Without the spacer

I read again your post above, so you did not have to use a spacer just to give more mounting depth, so it wouldn't bottom out against the frame?

Maybe the mounting depth is different for the Camaro?
There is no way I could have installed these without a spacer just because of the lack of mounting depth alone. The magnet on mine would bottom out in the back and hit the frame long before it would seat flush.

I could see how running these with the stock amp and in this location wouldn't really require the spacer for rear venting purpose. But, I don't know how you were able to get them to even come close to flush against the mounting hole without using a spacer at all.

Any chance you could shed some light on this for me, thanks.

I will try and post a pic whenever I get the chance. Flush or not, they still sound great.

I'm curious as well....I should have set poll results public so we could track down people and question them since some may never revisit this thread again....
>>>

I hear ya.

Not too mention, I had already voted before I did this install and now I can't "revote" and say "I did the install and like it" grrrr.

Anyway, It get's on the BT meter, 9 thumbs up!

side note: I have the amp open and laying on the carpet with only the left and right heat sinks still on. ( please, no ESD jokes here, thank you.)

At 4 ohms, my temp probe showed 130 F just having the unit on and no volume after 10 mins.

With the volume up around halfway, it hit 160 f in no time at all.

Don't forget, this is with the amp case open and exposed to ambient in car temps around 80 F and not tucked away in the oem location with all the amp covers on.

There is a huge diffence in bass volume with these wired in 4 ohm. ( much less )

Tonight I took them out and rewired them again for 1 ohm , ( which I prefer much more over 4 ohms ).

I will still be monitoring the heat at the same spot on the sink. ( which is where the most heat in the amp seems to be coming from )

Tomorrow I will find out how hot this amp is getting in 1 ohm. :)

I have a feeling it's shutting down at a certian temp...

Buy a set of the D4s and do it right man, then no more worrying about that crap.

With all the time you've put into checking amp temps and stuff, you could have probably made enough money to pay for a new set.

I'm very happy with mine, the difference in sound is absolutely amazing.

Buy a set of the D4s and do it right man, then no more worrying about that crap.

With all the time you've put into checking amp temps and stuff, you could have probably made enough money to pay for a new set.

I'm very happy with mine, the difference in sound is absolutely amazing.
>>>>
Buy a set of the D4s and do it right man
>>
interesting that you would mention that.
I think the mounting depth on the D4's are the same as the D2's, so... one of my problems will still exist.
At any rate, based on my findings I'm quite happy actually getting the "wrong" set shipped to me.

I might have not been as happy with the D4's just based on what I hear in 4 ohms anyway.

I could buy another set, but I think what I have now will be fine even when I decide to upgrade the system.
Having an extra set of these laying around I don't think would help much.

then no more worrying about that crap.
>>>
I'm not all that worried, but thanks for your concern.

With all the time you've put into checking amp temps and stuff, you could have probably made enough money to pay for a new set.
>>>
It's not that much time really, and I'm just more interested in what is going on rather than "just throwing things together blindly, without checking on things."

I'm very happy with mine, the difference in sound is absolutely amazing.
>>>
I guess we can agree on one thing. :judge:

Again, I'm glad "yours" sound fine to "you".

Enjoy. :)

My D4s are wired in parallel, running at 2ohms a piece, just like stock. There's no need to check on things when the amp sees nothing but a stock configuration to send power to.

While you are correct about mounting depth, I was mostly trying to assist you in your quest to find the optimal amount of power.

The stock amp is setup for 2ohm output, and that's what my speakers are running at. You're stuck with the options of 1ohm and 4ohm.

My D4s are wired in parallel, running at 2ohms a piece, just like stock. There's no need to check on things when the amp sees nothing but a stock configuration to send power to.

While you are correct about mounting depth, I was mostly trying to assist you in your quest to find the optimal amount of power.

The stock amp is setup for 2ohm output, and that's what my speakers are running at. You're stuck with the options of 1ohm and 4ohm.
>>>
The stock amp is setup for 2ohm output, and that's what my speakers are running at. You're stuck with the options of 1ohm and 4ohm.
>>>
Stuck, would be a realitive term I think.

There's no need to check on things when the amp sees nothing but a stock configuration to send power to.
>>>
Perhaps your correct, I'm sure no one else would like or need the amp temps information, ( nor would anyone need a quick and painless way of quickly creating a spacer) or even consider it as an issue at all.

im doing the install tonight...ill post results asap. the speakers arrived kinda late, so the car is all ready for install. the spacers are in, the holes are cut, and the weather seal is in. im leaving them out because im going racing tomorrow, then when i get home, they are going in.

not like anyone cares, but here are some pics. i had to remove the entire panel to make it easier. I defenitely suggest taking it off since these speakers are just a bit too big to get them in easily.

sound wise, slightly better than the stock ones. im sure with a new amp theyll rock well. Oh, i bought some 6.5" spacers from best buy, and i had to trim the insides to make them fit onto the speakers,but they worked quite well.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2536000-2536999/2536801_78_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2536000-2536999/2536801_79_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2536000-2536999/2536801_82_full.jpg

not like anyone cares, but here are some pics. i had to remove the entire panel to make it easier. I defenitely suggest taking it off since these speakers are just a bit too big to get them in easily.

sound wise, slightly better than the stock ones. im sure with a new amp theyll rock well. Oh, i bought some 6.5" spacers from best buy, and i had to trim the insides to make them fit onto the speakers,but they worked quite well.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2536000-2536999/2536801_78_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2536000-2536999/2536801_79_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/2536000-2536999/2536801_82_full.jpg


I care. :)
That install looks great, and very nice pics btw.

Nice to hear you like them.

Any chance you know the thickness of the spacer you purchased?

Thx

yeah, I agree.......looks nice!

Anyone interested in going in on a set of these to save a few bucks? I see that at four or more there is a $15 savings each. PM me and let me know.

They're worth paying full price.. IMO. I don't think anyone will be disappointed. Adding a 'real' amp would only add to the quality.

i think i used 1/2" spacers and they work prefectly.

thanks BTW, not my most complicated install by far, but my first aftermarket piece in this cars stereo.

I REALLY regret not making poll votes public now...

Could the two that were NOT pleased using the stock amp explain what they didn't like? Were you expecting a massive 12" sub replacement and were just let down or was there something about them that you really didn't like as an improvement over stock (or as replacement)?

And to the one vote that used an aftermarket amp - could you please provide more details on the amp make/model & power you are running through the subs?

Thanks!

eventually I plan on replacing my Peerless midbass drivers with these and feeding them ~150watts a piece. I don't know when or even if I will like them more than my Peerless (which sound great). I will install one of them and then do a listening test between my Peerless and eD's and then make a decision on what pair to keep.

I REALLY regret not making poll votes public now...

Could the two that were NOT pleased using the stock amp explain what they didn't like? Were you expecting a massive 12" sub replacement and were just let down or was there something about them that you really didn't like as an improvement over stock (or as replacement)?

And to the one vote that used an aftermarket amp - could you please provide more details on the amp make/model & power you are running through the subs?

Thanks!
>>>

+1

hmmm....not a very good poll at ALL besides for seeing how much interest there is in this. I don't know why it's closing even, since I don't believe I put a time on it....but I'm glad it is. I was expecting more elaboration on results so others could be helped (and know under what circumstances/expectations/applications people were/were not happy), where this may actually hurt/mislead ideas/etc. I also feel there might be a couple votes that cannot be taken seriously.

Mods, if there is a way to remove a poll and it's results entirely - please do so.

I personally would still like the pics so I can follow along with the bouncing ball when my speakers arrive.

I personally would still like the pics so I can follow along with the bouncing ball when my speakers arrive.
Of course - mine and others who post theirs will always be here. I was referring the the poll ONLY.

Is is OK to daisy chain the speaker wires? I have so much slack built into my wiring (from putting the Kickers in) that I am sure that I could route it from one post over to the other. Is this preferred or no? I also picked up the .5" 6.5" spacers form Best Buy today in preparation for the speakers to arrive. I don't REALLY need the port hole in the back now right? I have no way to do it unless I drill it out and wallow it to roughly the right size. The 6.5" spacer that I bought is the correct answer right? It will match to the stock speaker holes well enough to bolt in correct? Thanks for the help.

Is is OK to daisy chain the speaker wires? I have so much slack built into my wiring (from putting the Kickers in) that I am sure that I could route it from one post over to the other. Is this preferred or no? I also picked up the .5" 6.5" spacers form Best Buy today in preparation for the speakers to arrive. I don't REALLY need the port hole in the back now right? I have no way to do it unless I drill it out and wallow it to roughly the right size. The 6.5" spacer that I bought is the correct answer right? It will match to the stock speaker holes well enough to bolt in correct? Thanks for the help.

>>
Is is OK to daisy chain the speaker wires?
>>
Could you be a little more specific about what you mean by "daisy chain"?


that I am sure that I could route it from one post over to the other
>>
check the wireing diagram in the first post?

It will match to the stock speaker holes well enough to bolt in correct?
>>>
I'm not sure and I chose to make "new" holes for the speaker into the frame based on the speaker and no spacer guide lines with using a plywood spacer.

I tried to not use the existing mounting holes at all.

fast01z28, might have an answer for you on the spacer.

Daisy chain, meaning connecting one to another. I could run the positive to the first mount point attach it and then continue it over to the other mount point and attach there as well. It looks like there is supposed to be a tie in from your original wire to both posts in a Y configuration, just thought I could improve it. I thought about drilling new holes but I thought the original hole was at 6 3/4" meaning there would be no way to get it in there without using another mounting surface. I guess it will be more obvious once I get in there and start pulling stuff apart. Perhaps the planets will align.

I don't REALLY need the port hole in the back now right?
No - please see post #72.

Sounds good, I will just take the biggest bit I can and make a hole with that. Kind of a middle of the road compromise then I guess.

Daisy chain, meaning connecting one to another. I could run the positive to the first mount point attach it and then continue it over to the other mount point and attach there as well. It looks like there is supposed to be a tie in from your original wire to both posts in a Y configuration, just thought I could improve it. I thought about drilling new holes but I thought the original hole was at 6 3/4" meaning there would be no way to get it in there without using another mounting surface. I guess it will be more obvious once I get in there and start pulling stuff apart. Perhaps the planets will align.
"Daisy-chain" - man, there's a term you don't hear much anymore. I guess it still applies to SCSI drives but I remember it most from serial accessories for personal computers (Atari, Commodore 64, etc.) :lol:

For a Firebird, the two pairs of terminals will wire up to the two pairs of wires of the factory setup (you're replacing a DVC sub with a better DVC sub). For a Camaro, you want to wire the 4-ohm voice coils in parallel to produce the same 2-ohm impedance of the original SVC sub. That means you connect the terminals together to their respective wire (i.e. connect both positive speaker terminals to the single positive wire and both negative speaker terminals to the single negative speaker wire).

You can pick up a 1" hole saw for your drill for about $10 at hardware or tool stores if you want to do the vent hole. Some stores even have kits with multiple sizes of hole saws for about that amount - they're not great quality but you're only going to need it for two holes.

So there it is, a daisy chain is the answer. Daisy chain is used for military too, that's where I was using it from. IEDs are set like that over in Iraq a lot of the times to make sure they get the most from blowing up a convoy.

Fast- Are the screws long enough to go through not only the spacer but speaker and still mount properly into the mounting tabs, or did you get longer ones?

I have a question with the wiring on this picture http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/fredmr85/samplewiring.jpg

After I cut the wires from the stock connector, would I just take two segments of wire, attach them to the stock wire, and then run them to their respective terminals? Is it that easy?

That's exactly what I asked as well. If you go up to Whitebird's most recent response he explains it in detail for both cars. Short answer for a Camaro is yes.

After I cut the wires from the stock connector, would I just take two segments of wire, attach them to the stock wire, and then run them to their respective terminals? Is it that easy?
Yes.......just as the wiring diagram shows. That is for a CAMARO however, Firebird Monsoon's have DVC subs...so you would use all 4 wires on each side appropriately.

I must have missed that. Sorry for the same question; I was up till 3 last night reading this thread and I'm not sure I can remember everything I read.

The oem amp is still working @ 1 ohms, if anyone is keeping track... :)

in response to the daisy chain questions, i guess you can say yes. thats what i did, i ran a wire from + to + and a wire from - to -. then i hooked the stock wires up to one set of + and -.

in respect to the spacers, the ones from best buy were for 6.5" speakers, and these are 7". i had to trim the insides of the spacers, removing the holes. what i was left with was a 1/2" spacer, then the screws went straight through the subwoofer into the cars metal, not going through the plastic spacer. this is okm as long as you use something to seal it all up, and you dont overtighten the screws. overtightening will bend the frame of the speaker and prevent it from sealing correctly.

So you had to drill new pilot holes for the speakers then? Did the clip have enough depth or did you use lock nuts and washers?

I just received these subs (D4) for my bday from my GF. I guess I will be replacing my Peerless midbass earlier than I thought :) I am just concerned that they will not perform as well as my Peerless CSX 165 C (850518) drivers do, as Peerless are known for very good midbass. I will be crossing them over in a bandbass application from around 60hz to around 250hz. I will be feeding them ~150watts each and they will be wired in parallel so my amp will be seeing a 2ohm load. I already have the area around them all dynamatted and have poly stuffed in the speaker cavity. Only time will tell if they sound as good or better than what I have. I will be installing one and then comparing it to my Peerless.

BTW, "daisychaining" is not the correct term...lol Either they are wired in parallel or series.

http://www.termpro.com/articles/spkrz.html

So you had to drill new pilot holes for the speakers then? Did the clip have enough depth or did you use lock nuts and washers?
I just drilled new holes with a small bit and screwed it in then with 1" screws. Do not worry about retaining ANY stock parts as far as clips, screws, etc. 1" screws should be the most you need, since you cant fit more than a .5" spacer really.

-sorry for any delayed responses or if I missed anything; my computer crashed a couple days ago and I have yet to get it working again...and as a college student, that pretty much screws up your life for a while.

fredmr39 is right on. i used 1.25" sheet metal screws, that inportant since most people tend to use drywall screws or wood screws, and cant figure out why the screw breaks or wont go in.

and yes, i saved all of my stock screws and clips, but they are in a drawer of my toolbox, along with the speakers.

So nothing on the backside of them though? What was screw size?

fredmr39 is right on. i used 1.25" sheet metal screws, that inportant since most people tend to use drywall screws or wood screws, and cant figure out why the screw breaks or wont go in.
>>

Or will strip the threads easily. Good point!

...and as a college student, that pretty much screws up your life for a while.
>>>
Sorry to hear that, I hate rebuilding the HDD.

So nothing on the backside of them though? What was screw size?
>>
I used nothing on the backside, ( I just used a drill bit a little bigger than the screw dia. to get through the plywood ( so it would not splinter or try and seperate).
Then I used a drill bit a little smaller in dia. than the screw to make the pilot hole through and into the metal.

I picked up 2 small screw packages from Autozone and the 1 inch screws work fine.( mixed package 1-1.5 inch same dia. )
I think they were "machine" screws. ( and try not to over torque them, and cause it to strip out. )
I didn't have to "kill" the screws when I installed them to make a nice seal and still have them firmly mounted.

What was screw size?
>>
Not exactly sure, ( but I think I can look that up if you need it.)
I took one of the OEM screws with me to Autozone and matched it up as best I could for dia.

Just don't use a screw that has a larger dia. than the speaker holes will allow.

The screws I picked up was a phillips "+" head and not flat, which seems to seat into the speakers mounting holes quite nicely.

The screws I picked up was a phillips "+" head and not flat, which seems to seat into the speakers mounting holes quite nicely.
and it keeps the screw driver from slipping and porting the speaker (tearing a hole in the surround or cone).

Guys, I am ready to order 2 eD 7Kv.2s (Dual 4 voice coils). I bought the car which came with an enclosure with 2 12" subs and a Lanzar Vibe 235 amp (2 Ohms - 250 W x 2, 4 Ohms - 400 W x 2). My stereo was stolen some time ago and I'd like to go with a stealth look this time and ditch that huge box. I realize this amp is cheap, but it will serve the purpose.

Is this amp too much for these subs @ 2ohms?

Thanks!

Guys, I am ready to order 2 eD 7Kv.2s (Dual 4 voice coils). I bought the car which came with an enclosure with 2 12" subs and a Lanzar Vibe 235 amp (2 Ohms - 250 W x 2, 4 Ohms - 400 W x 2). My stereo was stolen some time ago and I'd like to go with a stealth look this time and ditch that huge box. I realize this amp is cheap, but it will serve the purpose.

Is this amp too much for these subs @ 2ohms?

Thanks!
For powering information (available in post #1): http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/elementaldesigns_7kv2chart.php

250wrms should be fine

are those peak specs?...it says RMS.....but...
http://www.recommendedbuys.com/electronics/car-amplifiers/lanzar-vibe-235.htm

well, I installed one of them last night and was able to compare it to my Peerless CSX 165 C. Although I have to re-do my spacer, as my 1/2" one is too thick and the interior panel hits the speaker which doesn't allow me to -correctly- install the speaker cover clip on the bottom. I will be using a 3/8" spacer now and also removing some dynamat from where the spacer makes contact with the body, freeing up another 1/16" of thickness or so....hopefully the additional ~3/16" will be enough for the bottom cover clip to correctly attach. It's definitely quieter than my Peerless driver, but that's because my Peerless is more of a midbass/midrange driver while the 7Kv.2 is more of a midbass/sub. The 7Kv.2 DEFINITELY rolls off -way- before my Peerless does. As far as lower freq. go, the 7Kv.2 -seems- to be a bit better, but it's very hard to tell. It definitely reproduces lower freq better, but not so sure yet about midbass. I will be running the 7Kv.2's for awhile to see how I like them but will be keeping my Peerless ones just in case. I will also be making some spacers for my Peerless ones just so I can do a quick swap if need be.

Paul

Guys, I am ready to order 2 eD 7Kv.2s (Dual 4 voice coils). I bought the car which came with an enclosure with 2 12" subs and a Lanzar Vibe 235 amp (2 Ohms - 250 W x 2, 4 Ohms - 400 W x 2). My stereo was stolen some time ago and I'd like to go with a stealth look this time and ditch that huge box. I realize this amp is cheap, but it will serve the purpose.

Is this amp too much for these subs @ 2ohms?

Thanks!
>>>
(2 Ohms - 250 W x 2, 4 Ohms - 400 W x 2).
>>>
Wow, I would have figured those W numbers would be reversed. 400 w x2 @ 2 ohms and 250 W x2 @ 4 ohms. :eek2:

Anyhoo...I'd probably wire that amp in 1 ohm also. :jest:

Yeap, I do need to burn that Lanzar in :)

Although I have to re-do my spacer, as my 1/2" one is too thick and the interior panel hits the speaker which doesn't allow me to -correctly- install the speaker cover clip on the bottom. I will be using a 3/8" spacer now and also removing some dynamat from where the spacer makes contact with the body, freeing up another 1/16" of thickness or so....hopefully the additional ~3/16" will be enough for the bottom cover clip to correctly attach. Paul
Had the same problem today with the lower clip, I just left it wedged into the top pieces and then called it good. I'm in no need of perfection since I will NEVER hit the car stereo competition scene and it isn't rattling or anything inside the car. I am having a problem although trying to get the interior sail panel meeting up with the roof line again after pulling it partially out to gain better access. Any ideas to get it married up better?

Installed the EDs today as well. I used a 3/8" MDF board as a spacer. Had the same problem with lower clip on the speaker covers. Overall, I am very impressed with the quality of these subs. Excellent quality and built. Nice stealth look. So far so good with no rattling noises. I drilled a 1 1/4" hole behind each one of them.

good write up

Installed the EDs today as well. I used a 3/8" MDF board as a spacer. Had the same problem with lower clip on the speaker covers. Overall, I am very impressed with the quality of these subs. Excellent quality and built. Nice stealth look. So far so good with no rattling noises. I drilled a 1 1/4" hole behind each one of them.

yep, same size spacer I used. As far as the lower clip issue, all you have to do is file off the part of the grill clip that extends further than it has to. I filed it down to basically look like an 'L' shape. It clips in perfect after doing this. I actually messed around and got my grills to fit better than they did stock.

JR HAWK 9, what amp settings do you have for these subs? What frequences etc?

Good idea on the tab. I just cut mine off, the grill still mounts just fine.

JR HAWK 9, what amp settings do you have for these subs? What frequences etc?

Good idea on the tab. I just cut mine off, the grill still mounts just fine.

I have them high passed around 63hz I believe. I also am just letting them naturally roll off on the high end, I could low pass them, but as of right now I have them naturally rolling off.

They are seeing 150-175 watts a piece.

Just thought I would post an update. After listening to them for awhile I have decided that they are not a good fit for my system. They would make for some great subs for someone who doesn't already have a 10" or 12" sub(s), but they just don't seem to give me the kick bass output I am looking for in order for them to keep up with my front CDT comps. I researched high and low and decided that I will be selling my 7Kv.2's and replacing them with CDT M6's. They are a bit more money but they are quite a bit more sensitive and are MADE to play IB therefore they should be more of what I am looking for. I thought about running a pair of Dynoaudio 160GT's, as they are -really- supposed to be the cats a$$ for midbass, but they retail for $530 a pair! The CDT M6's retail for $250 a pair. So, if anybody is looking for a set of almost brand new eD 7Kv.2's, I will be selling a pair rather shortly..........

Just thought I would post an update. After listening to them for awhile I have decided that they are not a good fit for my system. They would make for some great subs for someone who doesn't already have a 10" or 12" sub(s), but they just don't seem to give me the kick bass output I am looking for in order for them to keep up with my front CDT comps. I researched high and low and decided that I will be selling my 7Kv.2's and replacing them with CDT M6's. They are a bit more money but they are quite a bit more sensitive and are MADE to play IB therefore they should be more of what I am looking for. I thought about running a pair of Dynoaudio 160GT's, as they are -really- supposed to be the cats a$$ for midbass, but they retail for $530 a pair! The CDT M6's retail for $250 a pair. So, if anybody is looking for a set of almost brand new eD 7Kv.2's, I will be selling a pair rather shortly..........
Yea they definitely are not intended to replace subs - I should add a note to the first post "If you have ever heard a 10"/12" setup, you will NOT be satisfied" -- but a lot do seem to like them crossed as midbass. ED says the eu700s were initially for IB application, but who knows... I have recently found out that the eu700s really sound good with double the power they receive already and by the time you reach those power levels, everything else is maxed out (not really...but you get the idea). One thing about the CDTs though - you have a separate amp to power them with, correct? (due to being SVC)

EDIT: nvm I seed you did use a separate amp... which subs are you selling? DVC-4?

I didn't replace my 10" sub with them, I was just trying to add some midbass with them. Actually, I think for those that don't want to run a separate sub (10" or 12") and just want to upgrade their current sail panel drivers these would be a great option. I think they are intened to be used more as a sub and not as a midbass driver.

yeah, they are a dual 4ohms, but I have them wired together in parallel for a 2ohm load. It's easy enough to change that though, just snip off and remove the wires I have in place. I had to solder connect the two VC's because there wasn't enough room on the push connector to do it that way.

Oh yea I know you didn't replace the 10" with them - I meant as you said: they are an EXCELLENT replacement for blown factory woofers, and a GOOD upgrade (note the wordage). Intended more for use as a "sub" - mostly, IMO due to the fact that they can handle more power and are not as efficient as a lot of midbass drivers are, so you need more power to get the same sort of response............not sure if I'm saying what I am thinking, but you get the idea obviously.

they are an EXCELLENT replacement for blown factory woofers, and a GOOD upgrade (note the wordage). Intended more for use as a "sub" - mostly, IMO due to the fact that they can handle more power and are not as efficient as a lot of midbass drivers are, so you need more power to get the same sort of response............


yep, exactly :)

I now have them up for sale if anybody is looking for a set.......

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=683836

well, I got my CDt Audio M6's installed and they are exactly what I was looking for!! They are MUCH more efficient and better suited for an IB midbass driver than my old eD 7Kv.2's. I was able to blend them into my system just fine and they actually make an audible difference, something my 7Kv.2's didn't do because they were SOOOO quiet. I am going to be playing around some more with my time alignment/xover freq's, but so far they sound great!

As of right now I have the following xover settings:

10" sub: LP @80hz
M6 midbass: bandpassed between 80 and 250hz
front comps: HP @200hz

I will be playing around with my xover points and may try LP'ing the sub at 63hz, bandpassing my midbass between 63 and 200hz and HP'ing my comps at 200hz.

For anyone looking for some good IB midbass/subs and will be powering them with an aftermarket amp I would strongly suggest these. They are a bit more expensive, but I feel they are well worth it.

how to hook up the eu 700's to a trans am. Four wires dont know what goes where. thnkas

is there a link for the speakers your talkin about JR HAWK 9???..my speakers just went and i need some upgrades...any help would be nice..thanks

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=4848

here ya go.......

how to hook up the eu 700's to a trans am. Four wires dont know what goes where. thnkas

Just as the stock ones were -- be sure to keep the pairs together, doesn't matter which pair of wires powers which voice-coil.

i hooked mine up and they just quit working on me ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

i hooked mine up and they just quit working on me ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
The subs didn't quit -- something came loose on you or you fried your amp somehow.

The subs didn't quit -- something came loose on you or you fried your amp somehow.


well nothing is loose and the amp i swapped out with a new one and still no fix....

Anyone else try this more recently or have people found better options?

I just added the EU-700's running off the MONSOON amp. They are very soft in my opinion and I plan to add 1 stealth sub and run the sub plus the EU-700's off a 4 channel amp. That should help them out a lot.

That is basically exactly what I want to do.

Now did you notice an improvement over stock? I personally like the way the stock system hits but dont like the having to replace speakers multiple times.

Right now all I have is a new Pioneer HU, everything else stock, and I am on my second set of Sails and the driver's side is going again.

Eventually I want to add the 10" Stealth.

You can definatley tell they have more potential, but I need to crank it way up to get any real sound out of them. With the right power I bet they will sound good, but then again, they are not big subs, which is why I decided to add 1 10" in the rear. I have to relocate my 12 disc changer though to make room.

So are you saying that at low volume you cant hear them?

I just added the EU-700's running off the MONSOON amp. They are very soft in my opinion and I plan to add 1 stealth sub and run the sub plus the EU-700's off a 4 channel amp. That should help them out a lot.

They should be at least as loud as stock off of the factory system (from what I've experienced).

Are you sure you wired it correctly?

Normal listening level, not really. I expected that there would be not enough power. You can see/feel the dome moving, but if you turn it up to what I consider real loud/cranked and turn the BASS up, then you can hear them. But at that point the other speakers are way too loud.

I replaced the fronts with SPS-170's and they are a nice upgrade but are 4ohm. Infinity is the only speaker that I found that makes a 2 ohm. That would be a better upgrade for the fronts.

They should be at least as loud as stock off of the factory system (from what I've experienced).

Are you sure you wired it correctly?

I wired everything according to the information at the top of the sticky. I was talking with Whitebird and told him I used the factory harness and just hooked the leads up to the +/- wires. I even switched them to make sure and then they hardly even moved or made a noise. I am pretty sure they are wired correctly.

I have not put them in the actual panel yet, they are sitting on the floor, would it make a difference soundwise?

If you turn up the bass and leave the volume at a normal level does that affect the sound? From what Ive read since they only take 50watts to power the stock amp should be more than enough to hear them better than stock.

If you turn up the bass and leave the volume at a normal level does that affect the sound? From what Ive read since they only take 50watts to power the stock amp should be more than enough to hear them better than stock.

Yeah I would agree with that statement, depends on what kind of music you are listening to also. I like a lot of everything, but the pop/rap songs you can hear them more.

Yea, Im just looking for something that will be just as good as stock with better build quality. I listen to everything from Rock-Rap-Country-Techno and back again.

Yea, Im just looking for something that will be just as good as stock with better build quality. I listen to everything from Rock-Rap-Country-Techno and back again.
I think you will probably be happy with them. I was thinking maybe they would sound more like a nice sub, but I was wrong and now I am going that route. I figured if I am going to add an amp, then I would power those also along with the sub. They are definatley built well.

Alright, that wounds like the info I was hoping to hear. Im not looking for these to be my sub, just give me some nice bass at stock levels or a little higher. The 10" later on will fill in the deeeep lows for me.

Watch eBay, I got mine new in the box for $108 delivered to my door.

Yea Im prob just gonna say myself the trouble and get them straight from eD for 64 or so a piece with free shipping.

Where did you get your spacers from? or did you make them and if so where did you buy the materials?

I wasn't able to find 3/8" MDF, so I started with a 2'x4' piece of 1/2" MDF from Home Depot ($6) I am going to use some to make an amp rack. I had to shave them down to 3/8" after I had the pattern right.

Gotcha thanks for the info.

Great Information, thanks,

Don't know if this has been mentioned in this novel of a topic....

But the 7Kv.2's are available with a black cone as well. So if you don't like the look of the silver cone showing through the factory grill, get the black. I know I would.

mounted two rockford fosgate 8 inch subs in the holes i cut the holes to 7 inches in diamater and ran a 750watt amp them via 2 channels
and they sound amazing and there hiden under the panels and i have my amp mounted off on the side in the trunk i can even still store my t tops in there and no stranger can see my amp or system if you guys wanna see my install ill post my myspace and you can also see my ls1 swap into my 97 v6

i just finished installing a pair of these. i used .25" MDF to shim them and wired em to the factory amp.

im happy with how they sound and if i used aftermarket amplification they would be perfect. only because with the factory amp is theres no low pass filter. i mean it is a sub channel but i dont have any way to adjust that channel. changing the bass frequency from my alpine deck doesnt really do it.

awome write up, but how do you do this on a firebird/trans am, they have 4 wires running out of the speaker 2 positive and 2 negative, just wondering if you know

thanks,
billy

awome write up, but how do you do this on a firebird/trans am, they have 4 wires running out of the speaker 2 positive and 2 negative, just wondering if you know

thanks,
billy:judge: too bad you didn't read the whole thread...


from the first page:
Assuming you have a Monsoon system in your Firebird then installation is the same as shown except that you will wire the four terminals on the speakers individually to the four factory wires instead of combining them to connect to only two wires as in a Camaro.

ya i know it old but how did you go about removing the grille fabric.....

^ do you have the grill out? if i remember correctly, on other speakers you could just pull it off in a second no problem. been a while though.

Anyone try doing 8" in the sails?

Also, for those that have done this.. how does it sound with weaker/no midbass?

how does it sound with weaker/no midbass?

What?

What?

lol I'm a bit of a noob but wouldn't the lower frequency range of a sub not produce what would be considered midbass at higher frequencies?

i.e. if a sub has 40-2500 freq and a midbass had 100-6000 freq the sub is not going to produce bass above 2500? where as the midbass would? I thought that the sub would have a stronger low freq bass but limited or no range in the mid area or am I all wrong?

im with dragonrage.....this INCREASES midbass.

So for us guys with a vert we could use four of these eu700s) w/no issues?

....no. convertibles have less space for speakers......

lol I'm a bit of a noob but wouldn't the lower frequency range of a sub not produce what would be considered midbass at higher frequencies?

i.e. if a sub has 40-2500 freq and a midbass had 100-6000 freq the sub is not going to produce bass above 2500? where as the midbass would? I thought that the sub would have a stronger low freq bass but limited or no range in the mid area or am I all wrong?

Midbass is maybe 200Hz tops. 6000Hz is treble. I run my tweeters down to around 2500Hz.

Midbass is maybe 200Hz tops. 6000Hz is treble. I run my tweeters down to around 2500Hz.

does the monsoon amp filter the frequencies outside a certain range?

what range of subwoofer would be best? one that could go as low as 30hz or would the stock sub filter that? I would think that matching the frequency range allowed by the amp (and finding the best speaker for that range) for the midbass would maximize the quality of the bass if that is the case.

For 6.5"s? You'd want them to go down to 50Hz at lowest.

There's going to be a tradeoff between sensitivity, output capability (volumetric displacement) and lower F3 point (depth of bass). The lower you go, the more you give up of at least one of the other parameters.

Besides, music doesn't usually get down to 30Hz.

i have a trans am 99 an has the 4 wires, my friend just wired 2 of em to the speakers
(6.5 sony) and i have an aftermarket stereo (sony)
whats the proper way since im bass less lol (dosent sound good like wen i had the stock stereo)

i really apreciated the help

The proper way is using DVC drivers. Sony speakers are crap and they don't even make 6.5" subwoofers, and their 6.5" woofers, like most brands, have really low output capabilities.

Just an FYI, eD discontinued the eu700s and instead brought to market a new 6.5" dvc sub called the e3.6. A lot of the same features are there, and they are actually on sale now for $39.99 each. Supposedly they work fine with the factory monsoon system as some of the issues with eu700s has been adressed.

One quick question. Can I get away with not using a spacer if I open up the back for ventilation? Will it mount flush?

ANYBODY USE AN AFTERMARKET AMP WITH THESE?

how do they sound? I am debating whether to get 2 of this and an amp. Bridge it for 4ohm's and make a unquie amp/sub box that will lay on the back behind the back seat. Just don't want to spend money on an amp if these aren't that great?

Thanks

I just did this install.

Here are a few pointers:
- Take off the sail panels, it makes everything easier.
- When taking off the sail panels, take off the speaker grills first because there is a screw in there
- To get the "coat hanger" things out, pop the middle piece out and use a LOT of force.
- The speakers will NOT flush mount, you need a spacer
- Do not make the spacer too big of a circle or it will hit the tabs on the speaker grills.
- I installed these in a completely stock system. If the volume is 1/2 way up, or less, it sounds like there is an average 10" sub in the back. When the volume goes past 1/2, the subs don't seem to get much louder.

Hope this helps, PM me with questions

Just did this install also! Got the speakers when they were half price, and still are as of now btw. Instead of using a spacer I cutout basically all of the metal in the back instead of just a little hole..lol I have stock monsoon setup with a alpine headunit and these things sound VERY impressive over stock sails. It sounds almost like a nice 10inch sub in the back, im very impressed with these little things. For 90bucks I would damn well recommend these!

I just redid my install of these subs. I originally used a .5" piece of wood for a spacer, but the wood kept hitting the speaker covers and popping them out. So I took the .5" wood out and replaced it with .25" wood. The speaker covers don't pop out anymore.

Heres a video of these speakers for everyone to hear by the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo-6zVxztpw

thanks for the video. the amount of bass the speakers put out is hard to tell by the video...since the sound is coming out of my laptop speakers. but you can tell by all the vibration that the speakers are really pushing some sound.

fccs, did you use any sound suppression material?

No, nothing just bolted them in after I cutout the back to make them fit. I figured alot of people wouldn't be able to tell by the speakers, thats why I tried to get the vibration points. Pretty damn good for only 6.5inch.

I am in the middle of doing this install right now... one good is do not use plastic rings that you get from Best Buy. I had quite a bit of trimming to do before I was able to get the speakers to fit, and the sail panel is touching the rubber ring that covers the metal mounting ring on the outside.