Small Block & Big Block Chevy Specific - Patriot Performance sbc 195cc heads???

Is anybody using Patriot's new 195cc Super Street heads on their small block? Any feedback? I have the opportunity to pick up a new set for cheap, wondering how much of an upgrade they'd be over vortecs.

Flow #'s:
Lift Intake Exhaust
.100 70 58
.200 140 105
.300 193 144
.400 230 176
.500 259 190
.550 265 195
.600 270 201
.650 272 206
.700 273 211

http://www.patriot-performance.com/CustomerImages/1880-1225/images/img_rad4E8A1.jpg

Ran the numbers on my Desktop Dyno, On a 383 chevy, 10-1 compression LT1 intake Comp cams Cam 08-503-8 they should Scream! They are no punk on a 355 with same cam either. There are alot of these listed on ebay right now. I have been considering them myself.

Wow, them heads like a big cam huh? Wouldnt seem to street friendly to me with a cam to maximize the heads performance.

These heads have compairable flow numbers to the old AFR Street heads. They sell these heads with different size intake runners so that the customer can match his motor combo together. They DON'T care what size cam they have running them. You can run a smaller duration cam and have them operate just fine, but you would want to use a larger lift cam to take advantage of the heads.

If anybody is considering these we should see if they would consider a special or group purchase on them. I would consider a set of 215s or maybe 195s.

I like Vortec, and the Bow Tie Vortec with Small ports are great street heads. You are limited to 9.5 compression on Iron heads on pump gas. I like the Aluminum thing because it is forgiving to 10 -1 compression. I wouldn't want to blow a hole in a new piston. I was all about using Vortec Bow-tie Small port heads, but the 383 makes a lot of compression just by its nature.
You really want to keep the ports reasonably small on a street head. Bow-tie Vortec heads are 185cc runners, Vortec’s are 170cc's.
Scoggin Dickey has a great updated Vortec head that is set up for a roller cam. It is no slouch, and the price is right. Just be sure you have an intake that will work on the Vortec head. My LT1 swap would not. That is why I had look for something else. These are what I have found so far,
http://www.sdpc2000.com

I like Vortec, and the Bow Tie Vortec with Small ports are great street heads. You are limited to 9.5 compression on Iron heads on pump gas. I like the Aluminum thing because it is forgiving to 10 -1 compression. I wouldn't want to blow a hole in a new piston. I was all about using Vortec Bow-tie Small port heads, but the 383 makes a lot of compression just by its nature.
You really want to keep the ports reasonably small on a street head. Bow-tie Vortec heads are 185cc runners, Vortec’s are 170cc's.
Scoggin Dickey has a great updated Vortec head that is set up for a roller cam. It is no slouch, and the price is right. Just be sure you have an intake that will work on the Vortec head. My LT1 swap would not. That is why I had look for something else. These are what I have found so far,
http://www.sdpc2000.com

You definitely know your stuff so please don't take this as an attack. I really disagree about keeping the ports small on street 350s. Fastburns are a great head for the street and have a 210cc port size and LOTS of people port match their heads to a Fel Pro 1205 (~203cc) with great results. I think the LS1 dispelled the small port myth when it came out since it has 200cc runners stock. You ar seeing more and more 200+cc heads with LT1 350s now too.

I am ok with that.
A lot has been done in the last 10 years with new cam math, and natural supercharging. That was what made the TPI such a serious thing for new cars of it's time. Look at the new Comp Cams Computer controlled Hydraulic Roller cams. They have huge lift, and extremely short duration. Typically you lend yourself to a smaller low end because your Torque numbers on the bottom will drop. I say usually, but with the new cam math, it can be compensated for. Cam part number 08-300-8, 262HR12 was a computer friendly cam with a 262/264 duration and a 450/480 lift at 12*, it has been replaced by the new cam part number 08-464-8, 252XFIHR13 that has a shorter 252/264 duration but a Monster 550/546 lift at 13* and the computer does not need to be reprogrammed.
The ability to match the larger ports has as much to do with the new cams as the heads themselves. Everything must match.

:offtopic:
but i recently got a bunch of vortec heads, from a mechanic that i know, who retired and he passed me a bunch of vortec heads, i am familiar with them, but not really into them, i have 2 diff. versions i think. the ones with the saw tooth, pattern on the ends have a 062 casting # on the runners
and some others have 906 casting and do not have the saw tooth on the ends, are any betters than others?, the comb. chamber looks identical on bothversions.
any one know?

:offtopic:
but i recently got a bunch of vortec heads, from a mechanic that i know, who retired and he passed me a bunch of vortec heads, i am familiar with them, but not really into them, i have 2 diff. versions i think. the ones with the saw tooth, pattern on the ends have a 062 casting # on the runners
and some others have 906 casting and do not have the saw tooth on the ends, are any betters than others?, the comb. chamber looks identical on bothversions.
any one know?

They're the same heads (equal performance wise), just different casting numbers. If I remember correctly, the 906's were factory installed and the 062's were stock replacements only available over the parts counter. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

:offtopic:
but i recently got a bunch of vortec heads, from a mechanic that i know, who retired and he passed me a bunch of vortec heads, i am familiar with them, but not really into them, i have 2 diff. versions i think. the ones with the saw tooth, pattern on the ends have a 062 casting # on the runners
and some others have 906 casting and do not have the saw tooth on the ends, are any betters than others?, the comb. chamber looks identical on bothversions.
any one know?

The 1997+ heads (L31) were the stronger and better flowing vortec heads. The 1996 (L30) casting heads had a tendency to be crack prone. Here is a link to look at: http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Discus/messages/3390/3027.html?1048253397

I am ok with that.
A lot has been done in the last 10 years with new cam math, and natural supercharging. That was what made the TPI such a serious thing for new cars of it's time. Look at the new Comp Cams Computer controlled Hydraulic Roller cams. They have huge lift, and extremely short duration. Typically you lend yourself to a smaller low end because your Torque numbers on the bottom will drop. I say usually, but with the new cam math, it can be compensated for. Cam part number 08-300-8, 262HR12 was a computer friendly cam with a 262/264 duration and a 450/480 lift at 12*, it has been replaced by the new cam part number 08-464-8, 252XFIHR13 that has a shorter 252/264 duration but a Monster 550/546 lift at 13* and the computer does not need to be reprogrammed.
The ability to match the larger ports has as much to do with the new cams as the heads themselves. Everything must match.

Good point, I'm sure that computer controlled cars with modern cam designs have definitely contributed to the advances in cylinder head performance. There are some pretty large cams out there performing well on the street these days too.

These heads have compairable flow numbers to the old AFR Street heads.

They flow similar up top but the AFR's own them in the midlift flow area.

My 1992 era AFR 190cc's flow

.200 144 115
.300 207 146
.400 244 176
.500 262 190

They flow similar up top but the AFR's own them in the midlift flow area.

My 1992 era AFR 190cc's flow

.200 144 115
.300 207 146
.400 244 176
.500 262 190

Sorry, I shouldn't have made such a broad statement. I was just trying to give everyone a baseline idea of how they would probably perform. I am sure that alot of the veiwers know how well that the AFR's perform.

the AFR's should out perform these easily especially with the chamber design patriot chose for a 23 degree head...

Sorry, I shouldn't have made such a broad statement. I was just trying to give everyone a baseline idea of how they would probably perform. I am sure that alot of the veiwers know how well that the AFR's perform.

Hey no problem. BTW what is the pricing on these heads? If they are anywhere near the AFR Eliminators then there should not be a hard choice.

For $1295.00 you get your choice of 195cc, 215cc ,or 225 cc int runner heads.

Looking at the web page,
http://www.airflowresearch.com/07racer.php
AFR price for Street heads
Part #1040 AFR SBC 195cc Street Heads, L98 angle plug w/heat riser, 65cc chambers, complete w/parts 1 pair $1,485.00
The chambers, though not the same, are the Vortec design which was actually designed by AFR for Chevrolet. This is a very good design. So mostly it comes to Price. Flow is close, but not exact. AFR is still better, but then you expect it to be.
We are looking at $200 or in that neighborhood.
So what are you thinking now? These still look like great heads. If I could get the Patriot's 195cc Super Street heads for around $1000 I may have to try them. If you don't like them, there is always EBay.

Personally I would buy the AFR's as they are a very well proven head. If Patriots pricing was cheaper then maybe I would use them on street rods were they mostly just want looks. I just hate leaveing HP on the table for a few hundred $ more.

Hello- I currently have a 406 with vortec heads. I was thinking about upgrading to the vortec bowtie with large ports. has anyone done that upgrade and do they think it was worth the money? I also have a set of vortec heads for sale if anyone is interested. I am new to the board thanks for all your help>>>

Please give us more details on intended use, type of vehicle w/weight, type of cam, trans type, gear ratio, tire size, intake, carb, and compression ratio.

HI---- The intended use is high performance street/strip- 1984 cutlass supreme not real sure on the weight, comp cams xtreme energy 268h, Th-350 trans, 3.42 gears, 14" tires, preformer RPM Intake, Holley 750 double pumper mechanical secondaries, around 9.8 for compression. 406 with -17cc dished pistons, 5.7 rods. headers, 2.25"dual exhaust with flowmasters. HEI distribuitor.

Thanks for your interest!

The exhaust is going to limit your car to the point that you will probably not see very much gain. You may just want to port and polish what you already have.

What size exhaust would you reccomend for this set up? I could easily go to 2.5 if needed??

The 2.5" exhaust with a x-pipe or h-pipe would be the way to go. I would also look into the new Vortec World Products cylinder heads. They have a new 215cc int runner head as well. http://www.worldcastings.com/Motown23degHead.htm

Thanks for your help I will check into it.

I like Vortec, and the Bow Tie Vortec with Small ports are great street heads. You are limited to 9.5 compression on Iron heads on pump gas. I like the Aluminum thing because it is forgiving to 10 -1 compression. I wouldn't want to blow a hole in a new piston. I was all about using Vortec Bow-tie Small port heads, but the 383 makes a lot of compression just by its nature.
You really want to keep the ports reasonably small on a street head. Bow-tie Vortec heads are 185cc runners, Vortec’s are 170cc's.
Scoggin Dickey has a great updated Vortec head that is set up for a roller cam. It is no slouch, and the price is right. Just be sure you have an intake that will work on the Vortec head. My LT1 swap would not. That is why I had look for something else. These are what I have found so far,
http://www.sdpc2000.com
With the vortec's relativly high tech combustion chamber and a proper quench distance I cant see there being too much of a problem running 10/1 or even more on 93 pump gas

Bow-Tie vortecs come in 185 and IIRC a 200CC port size I have seen a test of ported stockers VS the 185s where the 185s made 20 more horse and a significant gain in torque with no other changes to the engine

And dickey is a good place to get vortec heads but I have heard of people having problems with there valvesprings breaking

The 2.5" exhaust with a x-pipe or h-pipe would be the way to go. I would also look into the new Vortec World Products cylinder heads. They have a new 215cc int runner head as well. http://www.worldcastings.com/Motown23degHead.htm
I personally am waiting for more info on those for 1600 loaded for the pair built with good parts if the performance is there I'm totally down seeing as the vortec inherently has a superior port design to standard SBC heads I dont see why the aftermarket support isn't greater

sounds like a nice flowing head.

We have several guys using these heads. Golen Engine Service for one uses our 195 on their 500 hp 383 program. We had a customer in Oregon about 2 months ago replace the heads on his 427 (one of our competitors 220 heads), with a set of our 225cc heads and went from 652 hp to 687 hp. These heads are a great value.

If you are looking for something for street performance, our new Freedom series heads work great on 400-475 applications. These heads are "as-cast" copies of our CNC ported heads. We CNC blend the intake runners and perform our 5 angle valve job. These heads have a 188-190cc intake and flow in the 255-260 range @.600". They come with 2.02"/1.60" stainless valves, .575" springs, steel retainers, bronze guides, viton seals, 3/8" studs, and guide plates for $795.00 per pair. We recently had a customer send in a dyno sheet using these on a 383 with a mild comp hyd. roller cam that made 460hp /472ft/lbs.


Keep an eye out for our BBC heads coming in the summer and our LT1 heads in the fall.