Small Block & Big Block Chevy Specific - Sbc Hyd. Drag Race Cam Suggestions

I need some suggestions or sources for a good DRAG RACE Hydraulic flat tappet cam. Currently I run a 360 ci, AFR 195's, 11.1 comp, DP 750, XE284 camshaft. It works great but I bought the cam with more street manner in mind that just track only setup. Anyways now all it sees is the track and I would like other choices or opinions on the ones I see on Comp's or Crane's websites. Vehicle transbrakes @ 3600 with a 700R4 and I use 3.70 rear gear. Currently runs low 11's

A custom ground cam is the only way to go! I would use a soild flat tappet cam since it is a race only car. I would also recommend going with the 4-7 swap to reduce engine harmonics. How much does the car weigh?

I have never weighed the car before, but I've completely removed all interior, including anything not needed behind the dashboard. completely removed every last bolt underhood/undercar not needed and just installed a tubular K-member. What would that put me at more or less?? 3100???

How high to you want to spin the motor?

Fully balanced with TRW lightweight forged pistons and stock rods ARP studs. 6800?

This is the cam I would use personally, if it was my car:

Advertised Duration 288/296
@0.050" duration 250/258
LSA-----------------108*
ICL------------------105*
lift with 1.6 ratio rockers 0.600"/.0600"

Who cuts it?

Erson Camshaft/PBM Performance Products

I would go solid roller. It is about the same $$$ as hyd roller.


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D12%2D903%2D9&autoview=sku


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D12%2D822%2D14&autoview=sku

with 4-7 swap

Man, a solid roller is WAY more expensive than a solid roller in my book. Also, I'm not convinced a 4/7 swap would gain any usable power in this case (unless you're overreving the motor past peak hp at the traps).

I vote solid roller. You're leaving a lot of power on the table if you don't go solid roller. There's a reason race cars run solid roller cams.

Ben T.

The 4-7 swap has seen gains of 30 HP over the stock firing order. When Warren Johnson designed this firing order he was looking for a competitive edge for more HP. I have had circle track cars running solid flat tappets running with guy's with solid roller's and beating them with smaller cube motors. I am not saying that a solid roller will not make more HP, but a properly designed solid flat tappet cam can make a budget built motor perform extremely well.

I'm sorry but I call BS on the 30hp gain (this is coming from a guy who works DIRECTLY in the circle track car industry). The biggest advantage of the 4/7 is a broader power band and power seems to drop off less after peak power rpm. Atleast on our engine dyno it does. Also, the peak power gain although small is repeatable. Remember, a gain of 5 hp for a circletrack motor is considered huge when your hands are tired due to the intent of ruling.

There is a large power difference between a solid roller and a solid flat cam on the dirt track- very notable all across the operating range. You can almost tell who's cheating in non-roller cam'd classes by how hard they pull flat lifter cams (before they're torn down :)).

With that being said, a 'professionally' built solid flat cam could run circles against the guy who builds his SR motor using his favorite book as a guide without experience building race motors. For instance, at our local track there are "spec" (355ci, flat top pistons, "unported heads", SR) motors that pull on 415 cubic inch open motors. It makes no sense, but boils down to the build quality in the motor.

Ben T.

I need some suggestions or sources for a good DRAG RACE Hydraulic flat tappet cam.

Studytime I am not trying to piss on your Weaties. I was just looking at this part of his request. It sounded like he was wanting to do a budget build motor. I was mearely saying why not a solid cam? It would cost him just about the same money. I agree to disagree with you on the 4-7 firing order swap debate. I try to go by my customer feedback as to what works best for them. I have had feedback on this from bolth the circle track cars and from drag racers alike, as to the gains that they expierenced at the track. I have talked and read about alternate firing orders extensively, trying to offer a better product to my customers.

What are your experiences with the 4/7 and 2/3 swap?

Ben T.

LMAO at the flat-tappet over the roller cam comment. WOW 30 hp from JUST the 4/7 Swap?

Your a trip guy. You have no idea what the hell your talking about, post up bullshiat air dyno results and bench race to much!

ive seen the 4/7 swap in front of me on an engine dyno make 20-30 more hp on a big block, and 15-25 on a small block... 4/7's are very much worth it in my opinion, and when you talk to a custom cam grinder he will say the same thing...

And oh yea I would go Solid Roller too, especially if your primary use is drag racing...

LMAO at the flat-tappet over the roller cam comment. WOW 30 hp from JUST the 4/7 Swap?

Your a trip guy. You have no idea what the hell your talking about, post up bullshiat air dyno results and bench race to much!

Wait... that's the same thing I was saying. No way a 30hp gain from the 4/7 swap.

Did anyone notice he said Warren Johnson came up with this and found the 30hp. With a 12-1300hp pro stock motor 30 hp is feasible. You adjust this down to a 400 hp motor and you get what 5hp. That seams reasonable to me. That erson cam is basically the same specs as my Solid Roller cam. Less lift but same duration. Call Crower. they will help you out in a custom cam, Hyd or Solid.

What are your experiences with the 4/7 and 2/3 swap?

Ben T.

I have had only one customer decide to go ahead and try it out. He was the guy that got me into looking at the 4-7 swap cams. After talking with my cam grinder about a few of the alternate firing orders out there, I relayed the info to my customer. The 4/7 and 2/3 firing order swap origionally came out in the 1954 Cadillac's. It was something that was not used again until the 1980's in the Detroit Deisel's to help solve a crankshaft breakage issue. The newest cars to use this firing order from the factory is your newer 97'+ Y-bodies and 98'+ F-bodies. When we went to this firing order in my customer's Nostalgia Funny Car BBC there were some very interesting things right off of the bat with the motor just idleing. Even with his preatty healthy solid roller cam the motor still idled at 1100-1200 rpm. The motor hardly even shakes the car frame even with the solid motor mounts and stabbing the throttle. While it is at idle it sounds like it is missing on one cylinder, but just slighty touch the throttle of the carb and it instantly cleans up. My customer also said that when he comes off of the converter, the cam seams to pull just as hard there as it does all the way to redline. There is no one rpm point that it feels like the cam pulls harder at than any another. This firing order is mainly used in racing class only, however it is becomeing more and more popular. You can get this firing order ground for hydraulic and solid ROLLER cams only. This firing order alteration seams to like the tri-y design headers the best, according to Jack Burns of Burns Stainless (http://www.burnsstainless.com/) who has completed lots of R & D on header design for different firing orders. My customer will now only use this firing order for his camshafts. We have just finished with his SBC Alcohol Dragster motor and have the two cylinder swap cam in it and should know very soon as to how much it will pick up over just the 4-7 swap cam that he had before in it.

LMAO at the flat-tappet over the roller cam comment. WOW 30 hp from JUST the 4/7 Swap?

Your a trip guy. You have no idea what the hell your talking about, post up bullshiat air dyno results and bench race to much!

I miss being 18 and knowing it all!! :judge:

I know hot rod mags sometimes print things that are hard to believe,but thumbing through a few at the local stand,I came across two stories on the 4/7 swap.I dont remember the names of the mags but one gained from 3 to 12 hp and the other gained on the average 25 hp across the curve.Torque was up the same.Take it from someone who has used 1997bird he knows his shit.And he is a gentleman when dealing with him.I am two states away with hundreds of legit local builders and I will continue to use him without hesitating.Seems that the stunningman is to quick to jump in his keyboard boxing ring and call names,thats to bad.We need more 1997birds on here that try to help,not try to get a laugh.If the 4/7 swap was worth less then why are all the GOOD engine builders going that route?It is the future so get used to it.All engines are different you might only see a small increase on one engine,but the next will pull 30 hp.It is not unheard of.

You know what you realy need?

A cam with a cool name :D Like "Magic stick" or "Rumbler"

None of the others really work ;) At least that is what My customers keep tring to tell me til we have one cut ;)

"I call this one the Eliminator, you catch a peice of it and you can name it"
-----------------------------------------------------------Charlie Sheen

I know hot rod mags sometimes print things that are hard to believe,but thumbing through a few at the local stand,I came across two stories on the 4/7 swap.I dont remember the names of the mags but one gained from 3 to 12 hp and the other gained on the average 25 hp across the curve.Torque was up the same.Take it from someone who has used 1997bird he knows his shit.And he is a gentleman when dealing with him.I am two states away with hundreds of legit local builders and I will continue to use him without hesitating.Seems that the stunningman is to quick to jump in his keyboard boxing ring and call names,thats to bad.We need more 1997birds on here that try to help,not try to get a laugh.If the 4/7 swap was worth less then why are all the GOOD engine builders going that route?It is the future so get used to it.All engines are different you might only see a small increase on one engine,but the next will pull 30 hp.It is not unheard of.


We have another fan club folks. Not looking for a boxing ring but yeah 30hp is BS don't even try to water it down it still stinks. I am totally ashamed I didn't get to call it first. Wow as usual we have the cyber references and 1997bird supplies hundreds of engine builders yet recomends erson cams. LMAO. Yes I am quick to call BS when I see it... but its basically for the people that need it called, god forbid someone actually believe half the crap that is posted as factual. SOME engine builders (professionals for circle track,etc)are looking for every last hp they can get and $$'s means nothing to them. Some people $$'s means a lot more... Either way they are the guys NOT using ERSON cams.

Yes Erson sucks thats why they have been around every form of racing for so long.Didnt "Big Daddy" run Erson cams?I guess thats why he never set any records....Huh?I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Meanwhile my custom ground Erson cammed bracket car is quicker than my Comp cam grind that comp recommended.And I have allways loved comp cams and will continue to use thier products.First it was the 4/7 swap that you didnt like now its Sig Erson.Whats next?Maybe you need to read back through the threads,there is more than a few that have seen a pretty big jump in power.And like I said, I agree not everybody will get a 30hp gain.But you should know ,if you have researched,that it is possible.

Yes Erson sucks thats why they have been around every form of racing for so long.Didnt "Big Daddy" run Erson cams?I guess thats why he never set any records....Huh?I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Meanwhile my custom ground Erson cammed bracket car is quicker than my Comp cam grind that comp recommended.And I have allways loved comp cams and will continue to use thier products.First it was the 4/7 swap that you didnt like now its Sig Erson.Whats next?Maybe you need to read back through the threads,there is more than a few that have seen a pretty big jump in power.And like I said, I agree not everybody will get a 30hp gain.But you should know ,if you have researched,that it is possible.

Whats on the side of the car isn't necessarily whats in the engine. People actually weld tags on and put stickers on to be eligible for prizes.

30 hp would require more than JUST a firing order Swap sorry.

Yes I am quick to call BS when I see it... but its basically for the people that need it called, god forbid someone actually believe half the crap that is posted as factual.

I guess you need to go back and delete all of your posts then. I didn't say that everybody would gain 30 HP with just the firing order swap. I said up to 30 HP gains from the firing order swap. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an Erson cam! There are only 3 companies out there that make cam cores. They are then shipped out to the different cam companies to be ground into useable cam blanks. Most all of your cam cores are ground by Crane Cams for redistribution to the other cam companies, to be able to be profiled for sale to the general public. :judge:

I guess you need to go back and delete all of your posts then.

No you need to stop posting period or get your facts straight.

I didn't say that everybody would gain 30 HP with just the firing order swap. I said up to 30 HP gains from the firing order swap.

Typical post for 1997bird...As usual a retraction............

FOLLOWED BY. A pile of useless information to make him feel smarter

There are only 3 companies out there that make cam cores. They are then shipped out to the different cam companies to be ground into useable cam blanks. Most all of your cam cores are ground by Crane Cams for redistribution to the other cam companies, to be able to be profiled for sale to the general public. :judge:

You aren't a judge thats for damn sure. :eyes:

so you have never done a 4 7 swap put it on the dyno and seen an improvement?

The 4-7 swap has seen gains of 30 HP over the stock firing order.

I posted no retraction. Do I need to write this in crayon's for you to be able to understand this? :bang:

LMAO. You could see gains of 30 hp by swapping to a erson cam with the 4/7 swap or you could lose 75 hp. Who knows. Your a funny guy.

I was refering to the 4-7 swap in general, not just one brand. I personally like to use the Erson grind camshafts, they had the best customer service when I was looking at camshaft suppliers. Erson can get just about any cam core out there, the same as any other cam company. I deal with the head cam grinder there exclusively, that way I always get the results that my customer's are looking for. Now then that being said, you can get close to or better than the same cam grinding knowledge with a differant company. The key to that is being able to talk to the person with that knowledge.

there was a sagment on hot rod tv a cuple weeks back and they said it was possible to get up to 30 hp gain from the 4&7 swap. not that i agree with the bird guy but if you have an engine that makes 750 hp on the stock order would it be impossible to gain 30 or so horse.

Brings this type ad to mind:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal-Electric-Supercharger-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ150094751829QQihZ005QQcategoryZ33 742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Gains up to 25 hp!

not to rip on you but this is a reptuable tv show i am talking about not some E-BAY scam.