Automotive News, Media & Press - Silverado VS Tundra VS F150

Silver Creek truck test video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zShwG9l1F0Q

I don't even need to comment, this one speaks for itself.

No doubt in my mind ford has the best pickups

hmmm.. :(

HA! The tundra looked like a flimsy piece of crap. The Chevy didn't do all too badly...but damn, the f-150 is one strong ass pickup.

I'd still take a silverado over the f-150. I'm the asst. vehicle manager for the U.S. coast gaurd and we have 52 trucks in total, a mix of dodge,ford and chevy....all dullies. The chevy has the least maint. issues, the best pulling power and the best tranny. The fords spend many hours in the shop from tranny work, to ses lights, to rear end probs. The dodges are pretty decent overall, but they require maint. on little annoying stuff. Granted these were different from the trucks in the comparo. vid posted, but I know our guys put our trucks through some serious shit and the chevy comes out on top.

Going to post this on supraforums to see what happens... Tundra lovers over there

Ok, visit other cars section on supraforums for some toyota boys defending action...

lol at supra fanboys!

No surprise,
Working as a Development Engineer at GM and Nissans proving grounds in the 90's I conducted competitor testing and analysis on small and light trucks. Typical tests involved instrumenting the vehicles with accelerometers and microphones and running them over controlled road surfaces at set speeds. This was preceded by subjective tests over the same surfaces.
Ford trucks at that time had the thickest frame rails in their class. The Imports had the thinest frames across the board. If you don't believe me take a measurement next time you have the chance when your looking at a Tacoma, Ranger or S10. The Fords typically had a a better frame and axle but were less refined than the equivalent GM. I believe that the edge in the engine department and sometimes in the T/M goes to the GM. I had the opportunity to conduct tests on the previous Tundra and I'm sure they were shooting at GM as the target vehicle as far as ride and comfort goes. I didn't do durability tests but road input measured in the cab was much better on the GM, than the Ford or Tundra. Having driven Ford trucks today, they have improved dramatically since I was doing vehicle testing.

I do admit that I am biased towards the GM truck, but it is easy to be when it has a great engine :) , great ride and best gas mileage in class thanks to DOD on the new trucks. Hell if I want any killer performance LSx part, theres as much available for the GM as all of the others combined.

Ok, visit other cars section on supraforums for some toyota boys defending action...

What do you expect from the TOYboyzz?? Of course, for them it's the Nippon Giant uber alles. :eyes: :jest: They just CANNOT accept anything other than that. If they had their way TOY would already run/control this county's auto industry/WHOLE economy, and it would be the ONLY product one could buy! :nono: :pissed:

Im happy with my new 07 Silverado....wasnt even thinking about any other truck on the market...I get to spent all next week @ GM in Michigan working on the 7 post shaker,Its going to be awesome checking out all the new stuff....

Hey CTSmechanic,
Are you going to be testing at the Noise and Vibration Facility. Very nice facility. I had a few trips there when I worked out of the DPG. Actually, the equipment I used at GM was better and newer than what I use in the Aerospace business. Go figure, it helps when you produce a few hundred thousand trucks vs. a 100 missiles.
I miss the cars but I don't miss the beauracracy.

guess fords onto something with that frame they keep pushing

Hey CTSmechanic,
Are you going to be testing at the Noise and Vibration Facility. Very nice facility. I had a few trips there when I worked out of the DPG. Actually, the equipment I used at GM was better and newer than what I use in the Aerospace business. Go figure, it helps when you produce a few hundred thousand trucks vs. a 100 missiles.
I miss the cars but I don't miss the beauracracy.
Yea I belive so... this is my first time going ive been told theres 7 or so shakers beating the crap out of new passenger cars along with all sorts of torture devices for vehicle componets...Im more excited then I before my first trip to the wind tunnel..thats boring.....

I think the reason why the Chevy was so skittish over the "railroad track" testing grounds was simply because its dampers are stronger than the Ford and Tundra, and the springs are a bit stiffer. All of that would make it jump like that, but on a normal, non-destruction minded road, that would give the Chevrolet a major edge in the handling department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Swantko View Post
Apples to Pop Tarts when comparing the Diesels. Of course they will have better resale than the gasoline powered truck - however, compare similarly equipped trucks, both gasoline and the Yota will come away with the win by a big margin.

who compared diesels to gasoline examples?


I guess it will be apple flavored pop tarts then.

2006
Toyota Tundra 4.7 Crew limited<--- top of the line right?
Sale Price $29,259 $25,948-- $22,637 $25,694-- $26,474
Mileage--- 9,021---- 18,042-- 27,063-- 17,147---- 8,156



2006
F150 king Ranch 4.6L Crew cab
Sale Price $29,475--- $27,262--- $25,049--- $27,245----$27,055-- $29,796
Mileage--- 9,524------ 19,048----- 28,572--- 19,388--- 19,700------ 3,960

2007 Toyota Tundra
5.7L Crew Limited

05/31/07 MANHEIM Regular $41,500 852 Above SILVER 8G A Yes


Now to add insult to injury for the same money as a 2007 tundra you can buy a


2007
F250 TD King Ranch 6.0L TD
Sale Price $38,147-- $36,491--- $34,835--- $36,491----- $37,050 $0
Mileage--- 4,951----- 9,901------ 14,852----- 9,901------- 12,930 0


Now why anyone would buy a 2007 Tundra over a F250 King Ranch with the 6.0L Turbo is beyond me. Now whos going to be first to say a 5.7L 2007 Tundra is a better value than a F250 King Ranch any takers?


Regards,

wow that was well put.... game over lil flip style

That Toyota looks like it is made of rubber. What a piece of shit!

Yea I belive so... this is my first time going ive been told theres 7 or so shakers beating the crap out of new passenger cars along with all sorts of torture devices for vehicle componets...Im more excited then I before my first trip to the wind tunnel..thats boring.....

It would have been interesting to see the Tundra on a shaker.

When you are displacing parts of your vehicle as much as that video showed, parts are going to be breaking off real quick? They had to know about this before they released the Tundra :confused:

more info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfE_XAk2mE&NR=1



what bothers me is since totoya offered 0% on this truck it sales are picking up while fords and GMs dropped off. :(



http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/otf0999.html

lol man that thread over at the supra forum blew up talk about stirring up the hornets nest

Im happy with my new 07 Silverado....wasnt even thinking about any other truck on the market...I get to spent all next week @ GM in Michigan working on the 7 post shaker,Its going to be awesome checking out all the new stuff....

I'm guessing you will be at the Warren Test Labs VPC building. That is the only 7-post I know of in GM. Are you doing ride tuning? If so I'll stop by and say hi, I have a test running in that lab right now.

The video is very interesting. The Toyota performed like crap on that test road. If the speed were changed the Ford and GM would have looked different also. The Ford was at a sweet spot where the suspension was planted. The structure looked solid on both to me and was not resonating.

That test road says nothing for the actual strength of the frame structure. It certainly shows that the Toyota has a horrible resonance going over that surface. I'm not defending it, buy any means, I work for GM.

And semi trucks don't have a fully boxed frame, so that does not make the Ford frame better. They do that kind of stuff for advertising. Trust me advertising plays a big role in "options" that can be marketed into cars.

Brian

This is one thing that pisses me off:

People argue that Import build the cars in the US so its ok. Umm... well look at WHY they do it! Tarrifs and quoats. They didn't do it to make you happy or promote America. They didn't do it cause it was cheaper.

All the parts are still forgien made and all the cash still goes back there. Why would they do it if someone else got the bulk of the cash???

Any explaination that tries to justify that most of the cast stays in America is fictionous!!

lol man that thread over at the supra forum blew up talk about stirring up the hornets nest

What thread?


NM. I found it.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442217

yay for toyota fanboys

its rigged i tell ya.. Rigged!!!

I'm guessing you will be at the Warren Test Labs VPC building. That is the only 7-post I know of in GM. Are you doing ride tuning? If so I'll stop by and say hi, I have a test running in that lab right now.

The video is very interesting. The Toyota performed like crap on that test road. If the speed were changed the Ford and GM would have looked different also. The Ford was at a sweet spot where the suspension was planted. The structure looked solid on both to me and was not resonating.

That test road says nothing for the actual strength of the frame structure. It certainly shows that the Toyota has a horrible resonance going over that surface. I'm not defending it, buy any means, I work for GM.

And semi trucks don't have a fully boxed frame, so that does not make the Ford frame better. They do that kind of stuff for advertising. Trust me advertising plays a big role in "options" that can be marketed into cars.

Brian
We'll be there doing race related stuff along with a few people from Pratt & Miller Look for the big race hauler parckes out side with a huge number 77 on the side...

This is one thing that pisses me off:

People argue that Import build the cars in the US so its ok. Umm... well look at WHY they do it! Tarrifs and quoats. They didn't do it to make you happy or promote America. They didn't do it cause it was cheaper.

All the parts are still forgien made and all the cash still goes back there. Why would they do it if someone else got the bulk of the cash???

Any explaination that tries to justify that most of the cast stays in America is fictionous!!

Good points. The cash flows back to Japan.

To add,
What it comes down to is the Japanese controlling our market. They hire very few American Engineers, Development techs or managers relative to our OEMs. Mostly assembly related jobs. The American managers have very little say so compared to an equivalent Japanese manager.
The main difference is the Japanese are bright enough to realize thier economic future lies in thier manufacturing base. We apparently do not care where our products are produced. This is not the case with the majority on this board, but we all see this happening all around us. Most of the young engineers and some of the old ones I work with only buy imports even though they work for an American manufacturer. Kind of a bummer. I guess we'll see how this pans out in our future.

This is one thing that pisses me off:

People argue that Import build the cars in the US so its ok. Umm... well look at WHY they do it! Tarrifs and quoats. They didn't do it to make you happy or promote America. They didn't do it cause it was cheaper.

All the parts are still forgien made and all the cash still goes back there. Why would they do it if someone else got the bulk of the cash???

Any explaination that tries to justify that most of the cast stays in America is fictionous!!
:werd:
QFT

That F150 is impressive...oh if it only had a pushrod engine.

W

This is one thing that pisses me off:

People argue that Import build the cars in the US so its ok. Umm... well look at WHY they do it! Tarrifs and quoats. They didn't do it to make you happy or promote America. They didn't do it cause it was cheaper.

All the parts are still forgien made and all the cash still goes back there. Why would they do it if someone else got the bulk of the cash???

Any explaination that tries to justify that most of the cast stays in America is fictionous!!

EXACTLY!! Not only that, but they get MAJOR tax breaks, AND in some cases pay/grants for putting their "transplants" in a given area!! :eek2: :pissed: WTF? It most certainly IS NOT out of the benevolence their hearts/love for THIS country that the foreign manufacturers build transplants here! :nono:
Meanwhile everyone (especially the import fan/TOYboyzz) BLAST the domestics for shipping jobs out of this country, so that they can even have a chance of surviving against the Asian onslaught! I guess they just CANNOT wait for the ENTIRE U.S. auto industry to go under, huh?? :mad:

Wow at the ignorance of some people.


Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Kia, etc..... employ 1000's of American workers. But yet you seem to think, everything goes back to Japan :jest: . A better question would be. How many US jobs would be lost, if there werent any of those companies listed? What confuses me is, you complain about Japanese cars being built in American, but you buy American cars made in Mexico! Yep, that makes alot of since. This cracks me up! As though the taxes you pay when you buy a car would be mailed off to the car's country of origin. As though maintenance performed on that car wouldn't be keeping local mechanics in business. As though new imported vehicles aren't subject to tariff. America makes money off imported goods sold in America. Buying a foreign car still supports American businesses in the long run.

And the fact that you're considering patronizing a local, independently owned business is probably the most important factor. You can embrace globalism while actively supporting your local economy.

Does it makes since, if a person in China bought a Z06 Vette, the money would be sent back to Mexico? :jest: LOL at some of the ignorance.

Toyotas made in the U.S.
* Chevys made in Mexico.
* Hondas made with American engines.
* Fords made in Canada

Wow at the ignorance of some people.


Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Kia, etc..... employ 1000's of American workers. But yet you seem to think, everything goes back to Japan :jest: . A better question would be. How many US jobs would be lost, if there werent any of those companies listed? What confuses me is, you complain about Japanese cars being built in American, but you buy American cars made in Mexico! Yep, that makes alot of since. This cracks me up! As though the taxes you pay when you buy a car would be mailed off to the car's country of origin. As though maintenance performed on that car wouldn't be keeping local mechanics in business. As though new imported vehicles aren't subject to tariff. America makes money off imported goods sold in America. Buying a foreign car still supports American businesses in the long run.

And the fact that you're considering patronizing a local, independently owned business is probably the most important factor. You can embrace globalism while actively supporting your local economy.

Does it makes since, if a person in China bought a Z06 Vette, the money would be sent back to Mexico? :jest: LOL at some of the ignorance.

Toyotas made in the U.S.
* Chevys made in Mexico.
* Hondas made with American engines.
* Fords made in Canada

Good first post calling everyone else ignorant when your broad statements are just an ignorant.

The US auto companies do not have a level playing field, everyone recognizes this. They and their US suppliers are struggling to stay alive. And final assembly is just that... if that takes place in Mexico that doesn't mean the engineering and all the parts and workers are from Mexico. And the money from the sale of that vehicle does go to the US.

This is a very complex situation that can not be explained with generalizations. Supporting US companies and US products will help the US, that is easy to understand. We are going to be in a world of hurt if the US loses it's manufacturing base!

Brian

Wow at the ignorance of some people.


Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Kia, etc..... employ 1000's of American workers. But yet you seem to think, everything goes back to Japan :jest: . A better question would be. How many US jobs would be lost, if there werent any of those companies listed? What confuses me is, you complain about Japanese cars being built in American, but you buy American cars made in Mexico! Yep, that makes alot of since. This cracks me up! As though the taxes you pay when you buy a car would be mailed off to the car's country of origin. As though maintenance performed on that car wouldn't be keeping local mechanics in business. As though new imported vehicles aren't subject to tariff. America makes money off imported goods sold in America. Buying a foreign car still supports American businesses in the long run.

And the fact that you're considering patronizing a local, independently owned business is probably the most important factor. You can embrace globalism while actively supporting your local economy.

Does it makes since, if a person in China bought a Z06 Vette, the money would be sent back to Mexico? :jest: LOL at some of the ignorance.

Toyotas made in the U.S.
* Chevys made in Mexico.
* Hondas made with American engines.
* Fords made in Canada

The American factory workers get jack. The Asian company holders get all the cash. With GM or Ford at least the bulk of the good jobs AKA CEO and engineers are AMERICAN PEOPLE. The money stays here. GM and Ford use more domestic parts than imports cars do. Therefore they keep more jobs here. With an Asian company the profits are still only realised by the people they keep close [of the same country] and the non American design work.

Even if GM gives jobs to Canada at least its not Asia. GM has been an international corp since 1905 or so. :judge: Doesn't matter. Where does most of the work/dollars stay? Plus, when things tend to be built in Asia they are just inferior and often violate laws here in the US. DON'T THINK JUST CARS.

I'd rather have the work done in Canada than Asia --- becase Asia is constantly sending us poisonous food and other products. You never hear about 90% of the rejected Chineese shipments unless you want to. Believe they do sick things like intentionally poisoning people in S America by putting radiator glycol in mouth wash. Hundreds die in other countries where Chineese foods aren't inspected as well as US inspectors do.

If we didn't have such good inspections in the US I think you would realise a new side of Asian goods CARS or NOT!

The American factory workers get jack. The Asian company holders get all the cash. With GM or Ford at least the bulk of the good jobs AKA CEO and engineers are AMERICAN PEOPLE. The money stays here. GM and Ford use more domestic parts than imports cars do. Therefore they keep more jobs here. With an Asian company the profits are still only realised by the people they keep close [of the same country] and the non American design work.

Even if GM gives jobs to Canada at least its not Asia. GM has been an international corp since 1905 or so. :judge: Doesn't matter. Where does most of the work/dollars stay? Plus, when things tend to be built in Asia they are just inferior and often violate laws here in the US. DON'T THINK JUST CARS.

I'd rather have the work done in Canada than Asia --- becase Asia is constantly sending us poisonous food and other products. You never hear about 90% of the rejected Chineese shipments unless you want to. Believe they do sick things like intentionally poisoning people in S America by putting radiator glycol in mouth wash. Hundreds die in other countries where Chineese foods aren't inspected as well as US inspectors do.

If we didn't have such good inspections in the US I think you would realise a new side of Asian goods CARS or NOT!



:eyes: your delusional.

:eyes: your delusional.

You have two posts. You are biased. Probably defending Toyota to the aid of your paycheck. Hope this helps you climb the corporate ladder.

You are delusional. Use a damn search engine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/02/us/02toothpaste.html?ex=1184040000&en=b0eba30e3278dee6&ei=5070

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/01/chinese_toothpaste_squeezed/

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56056

What about the lovely CLOSED MARKET Japan has? That isn't fair trade at all! I say Washington should tell the Japanese automakers to take a hike until they open their market! It would work too, because we buy a LOT of Japanese cars!

You have two posts. You are biased. Probably defending Toyota to the aid of your paycheck. Hope this helps you climb the corporate ladder.

You are delusional. Use a damn search engine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/02/us/02toothpaste.html?ex=1184040000&en=b0eba30e3278dee6&ei=5070

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/01/chinese_toothpaste_squeezed/

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56056



Dude, Im talking about cars and your talking about toothpaste :jest: .


I think everyone here knows about this issue with the toothpaste. But honestly, I thought we were talking about Japan and not China :jest:

Dude, Im talking about cars and your talking about toothpaste :jest: .


I think everyone here knows about this issue with the toothpaste. But honestly, I thought we were talking about Japan and not China :jest:

Forgien cars contain more componets from Asian lands. Therefore, a Japanese car is more likey to contain questionable parts from China and Japan. They can get away with not surpassing American laws easier as there are less whistle blowers there. Besides, the last time I checked it was less than 60 years ago Japan was trying to take over China's industrial heartland. Might indicate they are apt to use a lot of parts from China today.

Wow at the ignorance of some people.
Before you jump on a board and start calling people ignorant use your spell check and check your punctuation. You nullify any point you try to make by proving yourself to be ignorant.
A better question would be. How many US jobs would be lost, if there werent any of those companies listed?
How many jobs are lost? Domestic auto makers employ 3.1 American workers for every 1 that the Japanese auto makers employ. GM employs more American auto workers than all of the foreign OEMS combined, 110,000 for GM vs. 103,000 All foreign. (source: Level Field Institute).
What confuses me is, you complain about Japanese cars being built in American, but you buy American cars made in Mexico!
Canada and Mexico are actually good trading partners compared to Japan, They actually buy US goods. In the early 2000's our trade imbalance with Japan was 65 Billion dollars, at the same time our Imbalance with Canada was 8.1 Billion dollars and Mexico, a paltry 4.8 Billion.

If your going to put up any argument. Do a little research first.

Regardless of where a car is made, the company can only make money if they can sell the product. Why is Toyota able to do that better than GM? Therein lies the truth. Personally, I would rather drive a car that put food on the table of my neighbors family than some mexican family (built here). Having said that, I am happy to see the next Camaro being built 3 hours away from me!

Doesn't matter WHERE a car is built, what matters is WHO builds it.

A GM car built in Canada still benefits the US economy way way more than a Toyota built in the US.

If you don't think that's true, I suggest you study the facts.

Japan routinely undervalues its currency so they can manipulate exchange rates/ sell products cheaper here, some times only at 85% of its value. Then they tariff the shit out of stuff going in to make money there. No to mention the product dumping they did when they were taking over the electronics market. The government wont do anything about it though, that is the part that really sucks.

Before you jump on a board and start calling people ignorant use your spell check and check your punctuation. You nullify any point you try to make by proving yourself to be ignorant.

How many jobs are lost? Domestic auto makers employ 3.1 American workers for every 1 that the Japanese auto makers employ. GM employs more American auto workers than all of the foreign OEMS combined, 110,000 for GM vs. 103,000 All foreign. (source: Level Field Institute).

Canada and Mexico are actually good trading partners compared to Japan, They actually buy US goods. In the early 2000's our trade imbalance with Japan was 65 Billion dollars, at the same time our Imbalance with Canada was 8.1 Billion dollars and Mexico, a paltry 4.8 Billion.

If your going to put up any argument. Do a little research first.



You answered my question. So basically, there would be 103,000 less employed Americans.


Thanks for the correction in grammer. I didnt know, this was spelling 101.

Before you jump on a board and start calling people ignorant use your spell check and check your punctuation. You nullify any point you try to make by proving yourself to be ignorant.

How many jobs are lost? Domestic auto makers employ 3.1 American workers for every 1 that the Japanese auto makers employ. GM employs more American auto workers than all of the foreign OEMS combined, 110,000 for GM vs. 103,000 All foreign. (source: Level Field Institute).

Canada and Mexico are actually good trading partners compared to Japan, They actually buy US goods. In the early 2000's our trade imbalance with Japan was 65 Billion dollars, at the same time our Imbalance with Canada was 8.1 Billion dollars and Mexico, a paltry 4.8 Billion.

If your going to put up any argument. Do a little research first.


:cool: :thumb: Way to OWN the newbie importfanTOYboy!! They must all really HATE that level playing field site! :lol: I'm going to guess he is a Nippon "transplant" worker as well. In fact, I'm willing to bet that TOY actually gives classes/seminars on company time, on the topic of how to defend against/defeat the facts on that site.
I could only wish that as many American citizens were as intent on NOT letting Japan, Inc. win THIS war, as they were on not letting the land of the rising sun win the last one we fought against them!! :usa:

You answered my question. So basically, there would be 103,000 less employed Americans.

That's right, he did answer your question. But guess what brainiac, there would be 20x that many Americans employed if your TOY/Honduh/etc. were NOT here, and the sheeple public bought Impalas/Fusions/new Malibus, etc. instead of your Camrys/Accords/Corollas, etc.

Had pssonu even just 500 measly posts that might indicate he had geniune interest in contributing to LS1Tech. Given that he has only 4 posts and they are all somewhat aggitating I would say this guy is asking for the :ban: :ban: :ban:

Don't get me wrong. If REAL member got in here and said something Pro forgien car I would completely read into it. Seems like he is here to make trouble and not dispute reality.

Had pssonu even just 500 measly posts that might indicate he had geniune interest in contributing to LS1Tech. Given that he has only 4 posts and they are all somewhat aggitating I would say this guy is asking for the :ban: :ban: :ban:

Don't get me wrong. If REAL member got in here and said something Pro forgien car I would completely read into it. Seems like he is here to make trouble and not dispute reality.


Wow, so quit to throw out the "ban" term ehh! If someone doesnt agree with what your saying, they get the boot right. Make sense to me, as well as you buying an American made Mexican car :jest: . American built, Mexican made.

:cool: :thumb: Way to OWN the newbie importfanTOYboy!! They must all really HATE that level playing field site! :lol: I'm going to guess he is a Nippon "transplant" worker as well. In fact, I'm willing to bet that TOY actually gives classes/seminars on company time, on the topic of how to defend against/defeat the facts on that site.
I could only wish that as many American citizens were as intent on NOT letting Japan, Inc. win THIS war, as they were on not letting the land of the rising sun win the last one we fought against them!! :usa:




The idea that a car purchase can be classed as benefitting Americans rather than foreigners is frankly silly unless you're in the market for a Panoz Esperante or something along those lines. Even if you're buying a Porsche or Ferrari, a chunk of the cost has gone into the pockets of a US importer, a US dealer, and even the EPA employee paid to check that it meets emissions standards.

Let me ask you. Would you buy a Dodge, Jeep or a Chryler? Im prett sure you would own a viper. Or would you! Considering this is a German Corporation.


""According to Forbes magazine, nine percent of the U.S. gross domestic product is generated by the automobile industry, impacting the livelihoods of millions of Americans. But those livelihoods aren’t solely dependent on ailing GM and Ford; several Asian and European automakers have invested heavily within U.S. borders. Known as “transplants,” these overseas automakers directly or indirectly employ hundreds of thousands of people in the United States. From design studios and proving grounds to research and development facilities and assembly plants, transplants are investing billions of dollars into the U.S. economy to build state-of-the-art automobiles, taking up the slack where GM and Ford have left off.""

"''Fortunately, as assembly plants have closed in northern regions of the U.S., transplants have been opening huge, state-of-the-art facilities in the Deep South. Three are open now, and a fourth ribbon-cutting ceremony for a Toyota Tundra truck-building factory in San Antonio, Texas, is slated for 2006.""( Yep while GM is opening a plant in Korea)

So are Americans, not to purchase Land Rover, Saab, Volvo, Mazda and Jaguar, although they're not built here? But are part of GM and Ford. It should be pointed out that the automotive industry is becoming more and more internationalized with the emerging global economy. There are basically no 100% American or Japanese or European cars. A car with a foreign brand may have more than 50% domestic parts while a car with a domestic brand may have more than 50% foreign parts. Therefore, it does not make any sense to mention a car is a foreign car or domestic car.

Wow, so quit to throw out the "ban" term ehh! If someone doesnt agree with what your saying, they get the boot right. Make sense to me, as well as you buying an American made Mexican car :jest: . American built, Mexican made.
At least most of the money comes here, and the money that doesnt is going to a fair trade nation. Unfair competition is what forced them to go outside the US. Fuck Japan's government and their shady economic tactics, and shame on our government for not doing something about it.
The only thing getting pissed on mr "pss on u" is your newb posts and your shit attitude.

At least most of the money comes here, and the money that doesnt is going to a fair trade nation. Unfair competition is what forced them to go outside the US. Fuck Japan's government and their shady economic tactics, and shame on our government for not doing something about it.
The only thing getting pissed on mr "pss on u" is your newb posts and your shit attitude.



No shittie attitude here, buddy! Your upset becuase Im not agreeing with you, are sharing your ideas. Maybe I came off wrong, but I dont know how your able to discern that over the internet. Maybe your interpretation, was a little sensitive. I dont know, but thats my synopsis.

No, your whole generalization is distorted. Ford and GM, have long sold and built cars in Asia, South America and some parts of Europe. And in recent years, they also have begun acquiring smaller companies. Ford now owns Volvo, Jaguar and Range Rover and has a one-third interest in Mazda. Saab is part of General Motors. So those autoworkers in Sweden or Great Britain are likewise generating profits for far-off corporate headquarters -- this time in Detroit. Isnt this ironic, in what you've been "TRYING" to preach!

Wow, so quit to throw out the "ban" term ehh! If someone doesnt agree with what your saying, they get the boot right. Make sense to me, as well as you buying an American made Mexican car :jest: . American built, Mexican made.
More like American made, Mexican built.
Got it backwards there buddy.

Let me ask you. Would you buy a Dodge, Jeep or a Chryler? Im prett sure you would own a viper. Or would you! Considering this is a German Corporation.

Get out from under your rock lately?
Chrysler was sold to Cerberus, which is an American company.

It is true that the automotive industry is becoming increasingly global.

However GM, Ford, and Chrysler are still American companies.
Every penny made selling each car benefits them.

Whether it be an American-built Chevy, a Mexico-built Ford, an English-built Jaguar, a Swedish-built Saab, a Belgian-built Opel, or what have you.
An American company benefits from that sale regardless, and that supports the American economy, which supports US jobs.

No shittie attitude here, buddy! Your upset becuase Im not agreeing with you, are sharing your ideas. Maybe I came off wrong, but I dont know how your able to discern that over the internet. Maybe your interpretation, was a little sensitive. I dont know, but thats my synopsis.

No, your whole generalization is distorted. Ford and GM, have long sold and built cars in Asia, South America and some parts of Europe. And in recent years, they also have begun acquiring smaller companies. Ford now owns Volvo, Jaguar and Range Rover and has a one-third interest in Mazda. Saab is part of General Motors. So those autoworkers in Sweden or Great Britain are likewise generating profits for far-off corporate headquarters -- this time in Detroit. Isnt this ironic, in what you've been "TRYING" to preach!


I stated that a long time ago. Why are you back pedaling?
Everyone has their hand is someone elses' honeypots. This thread is concerned with billions of dollars and 100's of thousands of jobs. Not the fact that GM might of bought a computer componet that was from Asia but did all the high paying design work here. The scale doesn't have to be 100% in either direction. We just want it tipped in our favour.

I believe the domestic mentality will push for a better product. I believe the the imported menality will push for a more miserly product. They will penny pinch all the more. They won't have as much quality. They may circumvent US laws.

I have seen so many reproduction pieces that are substandard, sometimes dangerous, and don't fit OEM US specs. Who wants something of worse quality and you have to modify what you have to make it fit. This experience has def carried over into my opinions of the forgien auto market as well. It can be proven deductively that I have a valid but disturbing arguement. :(

I guess ultimately what I want to say is that I and many other US citizens WOULD benefit more if the market share was more domestic than imports. I am not saying no one benefits at all from imports but the US econ would be stronger in trying times.

More like American made, Mexican built.
Got it backwards there buddy.


Get out from under your rock lately?
Chrysler was sold to Cerberus, which is an American company.

It is true that the automotive industry is becoming increasingly global.

However GM, Ford, and Chrysler are still American companies.
Every penny made selling each car benefits them.

Whether it be an American-built Chevy, a Mexico-built Ford, an English-built Jaguar, a Swedish-built Saab, a Belgian-built Opel, or what have you.
An American company benefits from that sale regardless, and that supports the American economy, which supports US jobs.



My statements are for the people that continue to say, Americans do not profit from having Japanese companies in the US.

Your not dissecting what Im saying. I dont think I can be any more pellucid, than what Ive already composed.

I dont want you to think, Im not apprehending what your saying. This is not the case. For one, I own a 2005 Tahoe and a 2007 350z. But Im not going to be naive enough, to solely imply, that my money gets shipped straight to Japan, after making my purchase. Everyone benefits. From the American worker that sold me the vehicle, to the owner of the dealership, from were it was aquired.

Let me ask you. Would you buy a Dodge, Jeep or a Chryler? Im prett sure you would own a viper. Or would you! Considering this is a German Corporation.
.


The Viper is all-american, guy. Designed, made, and tested right here in the USA. No German ever had a hand in its life.

Second of all, Cerberus owns them now and they are American.

And for that matter, Mexicans and Canadians are technically Americans...North and Central .....

The Viper is all-american, guy. Designed, made, and tested right here in the USA. No German ever had a hand in its life.

Second of all, Cerberus owns them now and they are American.

And for that matter, Mexicans and Canadians are technically Americans...North and Central .....



Post #52 second paragraph sir

Wow, so quit to throw out the "ban" term ehh! If someone doesnt agree with what your saying, they get the boot right. Make sense to me, as well as you buying an American made Mexican car . American built, Mexican made.
I don't believe pssonu should be banned. I'm not sure what his objective is, other than to be argumentative. He owns a Tahoe and a 350Z. Tahoe is mostly domestic content and close to 100% N. American content. 350Z comes from Japan and can be considered close to 100% Japanese content. From the above we can consider him a fence rider (neither bad, nor good).

You can break down imports to individual products to create an impression that US based Auto makers employ fewer Americans than the Japanese, but overall the US Auto makers will always employ more American workers than Foreign Automakers.

Factoid: GM has 27 American assembly plants. Toyota has 6. And Toyota is the biggest of the foreign auto makers.

Global trade is fine as long as we are on equal footing. We have been and will continue to be locked out of foreign markets because they know (Foreign governments) they benefit economically by doing so.
And now China is following the same model that the Japanese created.
Apparently, Detroit doesn't do as good of a job lobbying Washington as the foreign Auto manufacturers do.

I don't believe pssonu should be banned. I'm not sure what his objective is, other than to be argumentative. He owns a Tahoe and a 350Z. Tahoe is mostly domestic content and close to 100% N. American content. 350Z comes from Japan and can be considered close to 100% Japanese content. From the above we can consider him a fence rider (neither bad, nor good).

You can break down imports to individual products to create an impression that US based Auto makers employ fewer Americans than the Japanese, but overall the US Auto makers will always employ more American workers than Foreign Automakers.

Factoid: GM has 27 American assembly plants. Toyota has 6. And Toyota is the biggest of the foreign auto makers.

Global trade is fine as long as we are on equal footing. We have been and will continue to be locked out of foreign markets because they know (Foreign governments) they benefit economically by doing so.
And now China is following the same model that the Japanese created.

:thumb: :usa: Yeah, I agree, don't ban him, but keep giving arguements/facts/articles that refute his "import nameplate/transplant defense". He sounds like those Econ 101 "geniuses" we get on here every once and a while to stir up all kinds of $h!t. But that's OK.
He's right, SOME Americans profit from having foreign companies on our soil. But somehow I don't think that all of the "fat, lazy Americans" (the Nippon Minister of Trade's words, NOT mine) will all of a sudden give up cars and driving if they had to buy ONLY domestic product, and NO foreign product. In which case A LOT, maybe even MOST Americans will profit, or at least be able to have jobs if they want one.
I want to hear "pisses" defense of foreign governments' imbalanced trade policies which continue as we speak, even though they have already collectively destroyed our whole manufacturing base.

Post #52 second paragraph sir

Post #999 of KISS MY ASS :shakinass . Look in the history books, circa 1992. I don't see ANY German involvement in the conception of the Viper. :gtfo:

Post #999 of KISS MY ASS :shakinass . Look in the history books, circa 1992. I don't see ANY German involvement in the conception of the Viper. :gtfo:



Nice ass you got there!

The Viper is all-american, guy. Designed, made, and tested right here in the USA. No German ever had a hand in its life.

Second of all, Cerberus owns them now and they are American.

And for that matter, Mexicans and Canadians are technically Americans...North and Central .....


No but the French company Oreca, designed and built the GTS-R.

No but the French company Oreca, designed and built the GTS-R.

Yes they did, and that was legendary! Man that was a while ago...

And Zakspeed is German.

However, they did not build or design the GTS or RT/10, the production versions. IIRC Shelby had a hand in the Viper pot when it was being developed, as well as Lamborghini, who crafted the original V-10 out of the Dodge Magnum V10.

You know what? I'm thinking this guy is actually worth not banning. I say keep him.

I'll put my Dodge Turbo Deisel up against any of them.

Yes they did, and that was legendary! Man that was a while ago...

And Zakspeed is German.

However, they did not build or design the GTS or RT/10, the production versions. IIRC Shelby had a hand in the Viper pot when it was being developed, as well as Lamborghini, who crafted the original V-10 out of the Dodge Magnum V10.

You know what? I'm thinking this guy is actually worth not banning. I say keep him.



:chug: :drive:

That video was funny. Here's my question, who the hell drives 28 mph over "speed bumps" for extended periods of time? If you notice, the energy didn't cause the beds to vibrate until the trucks were well into their runs. My point being, 99.9% of the time, people slow down when driving over obstructions such as that. Now, if this video was made to prove the F150 handles better in say - downtown Baghdad or Kabul - then great, the F150 is better. Or, maybe someone has to drive 10 miles over a washboard dirt road to get to town everyday. Fantastic, but the rest of us who live where they pave roads, would never have to deal with what was shown on the video.

Its impossible to say who makes the "best" truck. Its all subjective. If you want showroom performance, currently its the 5.7L Tundra. If you want to drive 30 mph over speed bumps, then its the F150. For some, the styling of the Ram is what they want. The new Silverado is a tremendous improvement over the previous generation, and offers a lot of benefits.

I believe the reason the Tundra flexed so much is because it is not a fully boxed frame. They did this to reduce weight, and quite frankly, didn't need a boxed frame to achieve their goals for the truck (towing and performance).

Tests likes this are great for marketing - just like the Tundra video showing its 0-60 runs unloaded and loaded. They don't say in the video the Tundra was in 4wd Hi when it did the 0-60 run. And they also don't tell viewers they did the runs against base V8's offered by their competitors (i.e. the 4.6 Ford, 4.7 Ram, and 4.8 Chevy). Hell, the Tundra should pull a load faster in the video because it has almost 1 liter more engine and 100 more horsepower than the "standard" V8's offered by the Big 3. Again, great for marketing, but highly bias.

A better test would involve a series of scenarios. How about mpg at 65 mph, towing capacity, resale value, standard options, maintenance schedules (I had a 2004 Hemi and it loved the dealer lol), ground clearance, leg room, torque curves, etc. A combination of tests proves the worth of a vehicle, rather than one specific test geared towards its particular strength.

I had a 2004 F150 FX4, and can say this, it had a fantastic interior, but that's where it ended. It couldn't get out of its own way, wasn't constructed with the best materials, and the extra long bolts on the bed didn't do anything for me.

That video was funny. Here's my question, who the hell drives 28 mph over "speed bumps" for extended periods of time? If you notice, the energy didn't cause the beds to vibrate until the trucks were well into their runs. My point being, 99.9% of the time, people slow down when driving over obstructions such as that. Now, if this video was made to prove the F150 handles better in say - downtown Baghdad or Kabul - then great, the F150 is better. Or, maybe someone has to drive 10 miles over a washboard dirt road to get to town everyday. Fantastic, but the rest of us who live where they pave roads, would never have to deal with what was shown on the video.

Its impossible to say who makes the "best" truck. Its all subjective. If you want showroom performance, currently its the 5.7L Tundra. If you want to drive 30 mph over speed bumps, then its the F150. For some, the styling of the Ram is what they want. The new Silverado is a tremendous improvement over the previous generation, and offers a lot of benefits.

I believe the reason the Tundra flexed so much is because it is not a fully boxed frame. They did this to reduce weight, and quite frankly, didn't need a boxed frame to achieve their goals for the truck (towing and performance).

Tests likes this are great for marketing - just like the Tundra video showing its 0-60 runs unloaded and loaded. They don't say in the video the Tundra was in 4wd Hi when it did the 0-60 run. And they also don't tell viewers they did the runs against base V8's offered by their competitors (i.e. the 4.6 Ford, 4.7 Ram, and 4.8 Chevy). Hell, the Tundra should pull a load faster in the video because it has almost 1 liter more engine and 100 more horsepower than the "standard" V8's offered by the Big 3. Again, great for marketing, but highly bias.

A better test would involve a series of scenarios. How about mpg at 65 mph, towing capacity, resale value, standard options, maintenance schedules (I had a 2004 Hemi and it loved the dealer lol), ground clearance, leg room, torque curves, etc. A combination of tests proves the worth of a vehicle, rather than one specific test geared towards its particular strength.

I had a 2004 F150 FX4, and can say this, it had a fantastic interior, but that's where it ended. It couldn't get out of its own way, wasn't constructed with the best materials, and the extra long bolts on the bed didn't do anything for me.

+1 you hit the nail on the head!

Personally, I'd put the wimpy 4.7L Tundra up against 4.8L Silverado and laugh all the way to the bank as the Toyota fell so far behind it wouldn't be funny!

That video was funny. Here's my question, who the hell drives 28 mph over "speed bumps" for extended periods of time? If you notice, the energy didn't cause the beds to vibrate until the trucks were well into their runs. My point being, 99.9% of the time, people slow down when driving over obstructions such as that. Now, if this video was made to prove the F150 handles better in say - downtown Baghdad or Kabul - then great, the F150 is better. Or, maybe someone has to drive 10 miles over a washboard dirt road to get to town everyday. Fantastic, but the rest of us who live where they pave roads, would never have to deal with what was shown on the video.

Its impossible to say who makes the "best" truck. Its all subjective. If you want showroom performance, currently its the 5.7L Tundra. If you want to drive 30 mph over speed bumps, then its the F150. For some, the styling of the Ram is what they want. The new Silverado is a tremendous improvement over the previous generation, and offers a lot of benefits.

I believe the reason the Tundra flexed so much is because it is not a fully boxed frame. They did this to reduce weight, and quite frankly, didn't need a boxed frame to achieve their goals for the truck (towing and performance).

Tests likes this are great for marketing - just like the Tundra video showing its 0-60 runs unloaded and loaded. They don't say in the video the Tundra was in 4wd Hi when it did the 0-60 run. And they also don't tell viewers they did the runs against base V8's offered by their competitors (i.e. the 4.6 Ford, 4.7 Ram, and 4.8 Chevy). Hell, the Tundra should pull a load faster in the video because it has almost 1 liter more engine and 100 more horsepower than the "standard" V8's offered by the Big 3. Again, great for marketing, but highly bias.

A better test would involve a series of scenarios. How about mpg at 65 mph, towing capacity, resale value, standard options, maintenance schedules (I had a 2004 Hemi and it loved the dealer lol), ground clearance, leg room, torque curves, etc. A combination of tests proves the worth of a vehicle, rather than one specific test geared towards its particular strength.

I had a 2004 F150 FX4, and can say this, it had a fantastic interior, but that's where it ended. It couldn't get out of its own way, wasn't constructed with the best materials, and the extra long bolts on the bed didn't do anything for me.


Thank you for bringing this thread back on topic.

Like you said the Tundra is a great truck for the kind of guy that just wants slight utility with the suburban lifestyle feel. As a work truck I would never buy one due to many of the roads I would be traveling on it with it. For towing heavy loads such as car trailers I would NEVER touch a Tundra but it would be great for a jetski or lawnmower. Thats fine and that is the most heavy duty the average person does.

As someone that has lived in the heartland even if I put my product loyalities behind me I still see huge advantages to the domestic truck lineup.

1. Who got paid for the design work. Sheetmetal, PCM, wiring, ect. That is alot of jobs. Forgien companies DON'T contract the majority of the design work inside the US.
2. Better durability and heavier duty.
3. More assurance that the metalurgy and casting were done properly.
4. Assurance that it will be overbuilt as a company totally in America has less protection from lawsuits. You can't even sue corps in China if Asian made vehicles get parts from there and they do. There is a Jap-Chineese trade relationship with respect to automotive parts and Chineese QC sucks.
5. Better assurance that parts were made in accordance to good enviromental practices and someone would blow the whistle if they saw a problem. [If you laugh at this one you have never been to E. Europe. Think it isn't a problem? Then, you are just ignorant of how bad things can be because America is so clean in comparison. Should stay that way.]

What about the Toyota commercial of the truck going up and down the incline? :jest:

There are more things to consider when watching that video...

The frame on the new 05+ F150 is strong as hell... this comming from a Chevy guy. The entire truck is a gigantic improvement over the last generation that made national headlines for horrible crash test results. Its also a hell of a lot heavier than the last generation. I think this is why we no longer have the Lightning, they would have to make a hell of a lot more power to equal the older fly weights performance.

Could this added weight and very rigid chassis have givin the F150 an advantage over the others in this test? I would say it has a huge advantage in this test, the more weight you have the more resistant it will be to bouncing around. I have pulled the frames on two different 05+ F150 trucks though and I have to admit they were structurally stronger than any other truck I have pulled by a good amount. In my oppinion the new tundra is a structurally weak built continuation of the previous models with some improvement in the chassis/driveline.

I agree, this test only proves that the F150 is more stable over rough terrain at higher speeds, its no indication of a superior truck to anything else on the road.

I am impressed with the new F150 but after working on the past F150 trucks it doesnt take much to be impressed.

I work on all makes models every day, I also cut these cars/trucks appart and piece them together every day. I see things in the way these trucks are built that 99% of you never see. With that said I wouldnt buy anything but GMC or Chevy when it comes to the truck line.

I work on all makes models every day, I also cut these cars/trucks appart and piece them together every day. I see things in the way these trucks are built that 99% of you never see. With that said I wouldnt buy anything but GMC or Chevy when it comes to the truck line.

While you are in the process of taking the trucks apart can you take some frame thickness measurements? In addition to the Ford being boxed I wouldn't be surprised if they had the thickest.

What about the Toyota commercial of the truck going up and down the incline? :jest:


GM actually asked Toyota to tone down and take out several of their wordings and stretches of truth in this series of commericials. Considering Toyota actually did this to avoid lawsuits from GM and other corporations I would say someone is a liar here!!


I think the benchmark says more than that. If I was towing a heavy trailer and the trailer started to yaw back and forth would the Toyota's frame be deflected, too? If I tried to stop fast how much would it effect the frame? I believe deflection in the frame rails would change the geometry of the vehicle and add unknown safety risks. It could be possible.

+1 you hit the nail on the head!

Personally, I'd put the wimpy 4.7L Tundra up against 4.8L Silverado and laugh all the way to the bank as the Toyota fell so far behind it wouldn't be funny!

Better yet put it up against the 2500 HD 6.0L!!!!!!!!

Better yet put it up against the 2500 HD 6.0L!!!!!!!!

Shit, the new Powerstroke TT or Cummins would eat a Tundra's lunch too!

Why are we comparing deisels to gas?

While you are in the process of taking the trucks apart can you take some frame thickness measurements? In addition to the Ford being boxed I wouldn't be surprised if they had the thickest.

My guess would be Ford, Chevy and Dodge are all pretty close with the frame thickness. I wouldn't be surprised if Ford's was a little bit thicker - but it also the heaviest of the three.

Thank you for bringing this thread back on topic.

Like you said the Tundra is a great truck for the kind of guy that just wants slight utility with the suburban lifestyle feel. As a work truck I would never buy one due to many of the roads I would be traveling on it with it. For towing heavy loads such as car trailers I would NEVER touch a Tundra but it would be great for a jetski or lawnmower. Thats fine and that is the most heavy duty the average person does.

As someone that has lived in the heartland even if I put my product loyalities behind me I still see huge advantages to the domestic truck lineup.

1. Who got paid for the design work. Sheetmetal, PCM, wiring, ect. That is alot of jobs. Forgien companies DON'T contract the majority of the design work inside the US.
2. Better durability and heavier duty.
3. More assurance that the metalurgy and casting were done properly.
4. Assurance that it will be overbuilt as a company totally in America has less protection from lawsuits. You can't even sue corps in China if Asian made vehicles get parts from there and they do. There is a Jap-Chineese trade relationship with respect to automotive parts and Chineese QC sucks.
5. Better assurance that parts were made in accordance to good enviromental practices and someone would blow the whistle if they saw a problem. [If you laugh at this one you have never been to E. Europe. Think it isn't a problem? Then, you are just ignorant of how bad things can be because America is so clean in comparison. Should stay that way.]

I test drove two 5.7 Tundras not long ago, and know what suprised me the most? On the driver's side window - on EVERY truck - they have a big yellow sign that says, "designed and built in America." They are trying to sell the "American influence" on this truck big time. Whether it works or not is yet to be seen.

I will give Toyota credit, their current Tundra is a vast improvement over their previous model. AND, I think it kicks the crap out of the Titan - in performance, options, and value. I would rate the 5.7L Iforce as the most powerful (both statistically and in the real world) than any gasser currently but in a Ford, Dodge or GM truck. It does have a ton of torque and gets up to 60 mph very quick. Its roomy and has a big bed.

But where they really missed the boat was on styling. In person, the thing is hideous. The body lines don't flow well, there are huge blindspots on the fenders, and its hard to see behind the truck.

All in all, its not a bad truck by any means, but it is more of an "evolution" than a "revolution" when it comes to trucks.

With that being said, my next truck will either be a Silverado or Ram (haven't decided on a 1500 or 2500 diesel yet).

I would rate the 5.7L Iforce as the most powerful (both statistically and in the real world) than any gasser currently but in a Ford, Dodge or GM truck.
What about the Gm 6.2l(403hp/417tq)? They will be available across the line next year supposedly, only in Denalis(truck and SUV) and Escalades currently. Also the Ford V10(tremendous torque), although it is not a V8.

What about the Gm 6.2l(403hp/417tq)? They will be available across the line next year supposedly, only in Denalis(truck and SUV) and Escalades currently. Also the Ford V10(tremendous torque), although it is not a V8.


We cant compare, something thats not out yet.

We cant compare, something thats not out yet.
It is out, read what I wrote. It is available on the Sierra Denali 1/2 ton pickup and also has a 6 speed auto- and is very similar in price if not cheaper when equally optioned. Price out a Tundra 4x4 limited 5.7 Vs a Denali 4x4, both are about $42k before extra options and the Denali comes better equipped.

They can very easily be compared, so educate yourself before you comment.

It is out, read what I wrote. It is available on the Sierra Denali 1/2 ton pickup and also has a 6 speed auto- and is very similar in price if not cheaper when equally optioned. Price out a Tundra 4x4 limited 5.7 Vs a Denali 4x4, both are about $42k before extra options and the Denali comes better equipped.

They can very easily be compared, so educate yourself before you comment.

Damn, someone on there period lol. You said will be available throughout the lineup, by next year. So I am guessing, it wasnt out yet. O well.


"""They will be available across the line next year supposedly"'''

What about the Gm 6.2l(403hp/417tq)? They will be available across the line next year supposedly, only in Denalis(truck and SUV) and Escalades currently. Also the Ford V10(tremendous torque), although it is not a V8.

Read what I posted.

What about the Gm 6.2l(403hp/417tq)? They will be available across the line next year supposedly, only in Denalis(truck and SUV) and Escalades currently. Also the Ford V10(tremendous torque), although it is not a V8.

I agree, but the 6.2 isn't available in a Silverado yet, so there was no way I could test drive it.

Also, not sure if you've driven an F250 with a V10, but its a dog (quickness wise). It gets a load moving, but it is far from a performance motor.

The Hemi trucks are also getting a bump in displacement and power, but until they hit the lot, nobody knows how they perform.

Currently, the fastest stock truck on the market model vs model (i.e. regular cab vs regular cab or extended cab vs extended cab) is the Tundra. I've seen completely stock new 4x4 extended cab Tundras run 14.8 in the 1/4 mile. That's over a half second quicker than a similar model from Ford, GM, Dodge or Nissan.

Once GM and Dodge add their 6 speed transmissions and more powerful motors, I wouldn't be surprised if they surpass the Tundra in performance.

I drove a Denali 4x4 pickup with the 6.2 and it was damn fast for a truck, it left the line hard and kept pulling. You should drive one for comparisons sake since you have driven the Tundra.

American trucks win. For that matter, so do cars, and whatever else, but I won't start another domestic vs import argument. :)

The 6.2 isn't available in the Chevys, it's a GMC thing, go drive a Denali. Also, the Duramax/Allison is a BEAST, it'll run down and put bus lengths on any Tundra, comparably equipped :judge:. (Comparing gassers to diesels, I don't care. Toyota made unfair comparisons. This is, in some ways, more fair than theirs -- our top-of-the-line to theirs :jest: )

GM actually asked Toyota to tone down and take out several of their wordings and stretches of truth in this series of commericials. Considering Toyota actually did this to avoid lawsuits from GM and other corporations I would say someone is a liar here!!


Where'd you hear that? I have family in GM and I asked them to keep me posted for when GM quit putting up with the BS, and I haven't heard anything. If they did, that's GREAT.


Now sue the bastards anyways, put it in the limelight. :jest: :chug:

I drove a Denali 4x4 pickup with the 6.2 and it was damn fast for a truck, it left the line hard and kept pulling. You should drive one for comparisons sake since you have driven the Tundra.

I'm sure the 6.2 does pull hard, and its something I will test drive. If I was to buy a truck for performance, I'd want a 2wd regular cab, and to date, GM isn't putting the 6.2 in a regular cab truck; whereas Toyota does put the 5.7 in a regular cab.

I will be curious to see how equal models perform.

The 6.2 isn't available in the Chevys, it's a GMC thing, go drive a Denali. Also, the Duramax/Allison is a BEAST, it'll run down and put bus lengths on any Tundra, comparably equipped :judge:. (Comparing gassers to diesels, I don't care. Toyota made unfair comparisons. This is, in some ways, more fair than theirs -- our top-of-the-line to theirs :jest: )

While I agree with you, the comparison is not even remotely close. There is no way to compare a 3/4 ton diesel to a half ton gasser.

A stock 3/4 ton 4wd Duramax does not run 14.8 1/4 mile times (4wd extended cab Tundra). The best I've seen from a 2007 Duramax is mid to low 15 seconds - which is fast for its class. I hate Toyota as much as the next guy, but if one vehicle runs a 14.8 and the other a 15.2, the Tundra is putting bus lengths on the Duramax (assuming 1/10th equals one car length, we are at 6 car lengths in this hypothetical race). Add a programmer to the diesel (any diesel for that matter) and you can get high 13's - but we are talking stock form here.

Yes, a 3/4 ton diesel will tow more. That's common knowledge. Whether its Duramax, Cummins or Powerstroke it will always tow more than a half ton. Why? Torque. Frame strength. Beefy driveline components.

Again, there is no logical way to compare a 3/4 ton diesel to a 1/2 ton gasser.

That Crap Toyota runs that 1/4 with a 4.30 gear.
The New 6.2 Denali will go 14.60-14.80 on a 3.42 gear. Toyota sucks. Granted the GM benefits form a larger motor, but they cost the same.
My buddy Chris has an 07 fully loaded Denali extended cab and with 312 miles and temp tags he went 14.66 at 95.23 bone stock. Toyota does not make the fastest truck on the market, the make the crapiest.

That Crap Toyota runs that 1/4 with a 4.30 gear.
The New 6.2 Denali will go 14.60-14.80 on a 3.42 gear. Toyota sucks. Granted the GM benefits form a larger motor, but they cost the same.
My buddy Chris has an 07 fully loaded Denali extended cab and with 312 miles and temp tags he went 14.66 at 95.23 bone stock. Toyota does not make the fastest truck on the market, the make the crapiest.

Unfortunately, Denali's are NOT roaming the streets in packs and selling like hot cakes. So, its not very common to run across one. Just like finding an SRT10 is difficult.

If you think how the Tundra performance-wise is crap, you need to wake up. I don't give a shit who makes the truck, competition is good for all of us. Ask yourself this, without the Tundra, I highly doubt Ford, GM and Chrysler would be offering 400+ horsepower trucks with 6 speed autos that tow 10,000+ lbs.

And for the record, a RCSB Tundra runs the 1/4 mile faster than 14.6-14.8. So, IT is the fastest n/a mass produced stock half ton on the market :judge:

Unfortunately, Denali's are NOT roaming the streets in packs and selling like hot cakes. So, its not very common to run across one. Just like finding an SRT10 is difficult.

If you think how the Tundra performance-wise is crap, you need to wake up. I don't give a shit who makes the truck, competition is good for all of us. Ask yourself this, without the Tundra, I highly doubt Ford, GM and Chrysler would be offering 400+ horsepower trucks with 6 speed autos that tow 10,000+ lbs.

And for the record, a RCSB Tundra runs the 1/4 mile faster than 14.6-14.8. So, IT is the fastest n/a mass produced stock half ton on the market :judge:

You can put a rocket on a terd but it doesn't mean I'm gonna drive one!
I used to be a Toyota fan then I realized they suck. Where is Toyota's 400HP Luxury truck? Oh thats right they don't have one! Let me put 4.30 gears in my Seirra Denali then we'll see what's up. :judge:

You can put a rocket on a terd but it doesn't mean I'm gonna drive one!
I used to be a Toyota fan then I realized they suck. Where is Toyota's 400HP Luxury truck? Oh thats right they don't have one! Let me put 4.30 gears in my Seirra Denali then we'll see what's up. :judge:


So basically you need to modify your vehicle, to keep up with a stock Tundra.

Toyota doesnt need a luxury truck, they have Lexus for that. Your problem is, you see things totally different market wise. Why would Toyota need a luxury vehicle? Who would they be competing with?

And for the record, a RCSB Tundra runs the 1/4 mile faster than 14.6-14.8. So, IT is the fastest n/a mass produced stock half ton on the market :judge:
Proof?

Unfortunately, Denali's are NOT roaming the streets in packs and selling like hot cakes.
Tundra's arent selling like hotcakes either. Better than the previous version but not near the numbers they hoped. I see the same 3 sitting at my local dealer since they were released. Im sure they are selling some but not well enough to get rid of the ones parked in front.

So basically you need to modify your vehicle, to keep up with a stock Tundra.

Toyota doesnt need a luxury truck, they have Lexus for that. Your problem is, you see things totally different market wise. Why would Toyota need a luxury vehicle? Who would they be competing with?
His Denali is equally priced with a top line Tundra- which isnt nearly as nice. A Tundra Limited is direct competition for a Denali- Similar price, layout, capabilities, etc.

Show me times for a stock crew cab Tundra that will beat the ones he posted. Also the Denali will get better gas mileage.

His Denali is equally priced with a top line Tundra- which isnt nearly as nice. A Tundra Limited is direct competition for a Denali- Similar price, layout, capabilities, etc.

Show me times for a stock crew cab Tundra that will beat the ones he posted. Also the Denali will get better gas mileage.

Don't forget to mention the aftermarket is way better for GM than Toyota. Also, GM knows how to make a cam shaft without it snapping like a toothpick.

Don't forget to mention the aftermarket is way better for GM than Toyota. Also, GM knows how to make a cam shaft without it snapping like a toothpick.


OMG jumping on the bandwagon arent we! There were less than 10 cases of that actually happening. Yes 10! Are should I say, Toyota knows how to make a roof(C6 Z06) without flying off.



Becuase the Tundra is similary priced, doesnt mean, its in direct competition. A Z06 is the price of a Lotus Exige S, but they're not in comparison.


http://www.pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2007070389166



As the subject says, Tundra sales were up 137% in June, can't wait to see what kind of sales volume the Tundra hits when they hit full production!

Don't forget to mention the aftermarket is way better for GM than Toyota.

+1
The aftermarket including GM Performance Parts has an incredible amount of parts available for the LSx platform. Arguably, Ford would be the only manufacturer that has a similar amount of support. Take your GM 1/2 ton 4.8 and plug in a 6.0, 6.2 or LS7 for that matter. Cranks, rods cams, blocks, heads, etc, If your doing mods it's the only real choice to build a fast truck. If you want a Foreign brand, stock unloaded 1/2 ton truck that accelerates over X-distance faster than the competition, than the Tundra may be for you. If you are planning on building the fastest accelerating truck that you can build, the GM half ton is the only way to go. If you look at the fastest trucks in the truck site, you will see this is the case.

OMG jumping on the bandwagon arent we! There were less than 10 cases of that actually happening. Yes 10! Are should I say, Toyota knows how to make a roof(C6 Z06) without flying off.



Becuase the Tundra is similary priced, doesnt mean, its in direct competition. A Z06 is the price of a Lotus Exige S, but they're not in comparison.


http://www.pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2007070389166



As the subject says, Tundra sales were up 137% in June, can't wait to see what kind of sales volume the Tundra hits when they hit full production!
So you are saying that 2 very similarly priced 1/2 ton, crew cab, 4wd pickup trucks with similar trim levels are not competition?

Also, for a new model that has gotten the press this one has to only be up 42% on the year (when Toyota was hoping to double their market share) is not the result they were hoping for. They had a great month to get them to that 42%, but lets see what they do for the whole year.

So you are saying that 2 very similarly priced 1/2 ton, crew cab, 4wd pickup trucks with similar trim levels are not competition?

Also, for a new model that has gotten the press this one has to only be up 42% on the year (when Toyota was hoping to double their market share) is not the result they were hoping for. They had a great month to get them to that 42%, but lets see what they do for the whole year.
+1. Equally priced half ton trucks. The LSx series of motors being proven performers. How does the Yota 5.7 do over the long haul?

you need to wake up. :
I am awake, I don't recall ever owning a Toyota or hopping on the bandwagon. So I will crap on them daily... :drive: :jest:
I will take my 18 year old GMC and tow a new Tundra around the Parking Lot.
No import nameplates for me.

So you are saying that 2 very similarly priced 1/2 ton, crew cab, 4wd pickup trucks with similar trim levels are not competition?

Also, for a new model that has gotten the press this one has to only be up 42% on the year (when Toyota was hoping to double their market share) is not the result they were hoping for. They had a great month to get them to that 42%, but lets see what they do for the whole year.



The Tundra will not out sale any Domestic truck, thats not Toyotas plan here. Their plan is to cut into the profits, of the big 3 and thats what they're doing. Their goal is to sale 200k-250k trucks a year and at this rate, they will make it.

ford trucks and SUV's catch fire way to much i would never in my life buy one... Ill stick to my loyal GM

The Tundra will not out sale any Domestic truck, thats not Toyotas plan here. Their plan is to cut into the profits, of the big 3 and thats what they're doing. Their goal is to sale 200k-250k trucks a year and at this rate, they will make it.

They can make all the trucks they want, but eventually they're going to have to start selling them :jest: ...

I'm surprised anyone would root for Toyota or anything they've made. Sure, if you drive one and like it, great. Honestly though, rooting for Toyota is like rooting for Imported steel in a country that is struggling with general manufacturing because of unfair foreign competition... oh wait, that's happening in the USA. Jesus guys...

I'm surprised anyone would root for Toyota or anything they've made. Sure, if you drive one and like it, great. Honestly though, rooting for Toyota is like rooting for Imported steel in a country that is struggling with general manufacturing because of unfair foreign competition... oh wait, that's happening in the USA. Jesus guys...

They've been conditioned by propaganda to beleive that everything else is crappy quality, and that they are actually helping the country.

It goes way beyond rationalization and is well within the realm of programming. (brainwashing, conditioning, call it what you will)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+ 10 trillion to the above 2 posts!! :D :thumb: :usa:

They've been conditioned by propaganda to beleive that everything else is crappy quality, and that they are actually helping the country.

It goes way beyond rationalization and is well within the realm of programming. (brainwashing, conditioning, call it what you will)
Very well said, those who drive them and believe they are helping are the ones who need to wake up.

They've been conditioned by propaganda to beleive that everything else is crappy quality, and that they are actually helping the country.

:chug: . A lot of Toyota owners drink the coolaid. Many hard core Toyota owners I have known throughout the years have said they would buy a full size American truck if the need presented itself. Fair statement since our trucks have good reliability like a Corolla or Camry.
What's funny is many of these people are now running out to buy a full size Tundra....... :bang:

The more foriegn products we buy the more we empower people who do not share our way of thinking.

The truck is built in American, by American workers. I dont see the problem here.

The truck is built in American, by American workers. I dont see the problem here.
Then educate yourself.

The profits go overseas to a company and country that frequently engages in unfair trade practices. They undervalue their currency to manipulate exchange rates, impose unfair tariffs to keep imported products from doing well in their country, engage in shady advertising to mislead consumers, the list goes on and on.

The truck is ASSEMBLED here, many of the parts come form The Land of the Rising Sun...

Then educate yourself.

The profits go overseas to a company and country that frequently engages in unfair trade practices. They undervalue their currency to manipulate exchange rates, impose unfair tariffs to keep imported products from doing well in their country, engage in shady advertising to mislead consumers, the list goes on and on.


Ive already had this discussion previously. The profits do not go all overseas! It is idiotic to think that way. You have Toyota, who employ's thousands of thousands of American workers, who depend on this to support their families. You have technician who work at the dealerships, as well as salesman, financing managers, owner etc..... who all benefit from Toyota.

Qoute taken from Wikipedia:


"Toyota directly employs around 38,340 people in North America. It has made around $16.8 billion in direct investments in North America. It has in total produced 14.8 million vehicles, 2.5 million vehicles sales (2005), 39.2 million total vehicles sales, and purchased $26.1 billion worth of "parts, materials and components" as of December 2005 in North America. It has 1,745 North American dealers and has given around $301 million as philanthropy to the United States between 1991 and 2005. [17]"

Unlike almost all American auto-makers who are shutting down plants and laying off workers, Toyota is opening plants all over the country. They are producing jobs in a market that seems almost dead. I think they have every right! If Ford or Chevy were creating even a few jobs I think they would invest millions into making every citizen know it. Just because a company comes from overseas doesn't make it evil or an emeny to the state. Toyota is making our economy grow and producing a product that is realible and exactly what the consumer wants. They should be rewarded for this.

Americans and their politicians should give up these isolationist thoughts. In the growing gobal world this country cannot afford to revert to what it was before WWII. We cannot close our boarders and stop trade or even inhibit it with out nations. If we want our products to be bought overseas we must allow companies like Toyota, Honda, Sony, etc. to flourish within our boarders.

GM still employs 6x the amount of people that Toyota does, and would employ more if they were competing on equal ground.

The most idiotic way to think is that payroll is profits, it is not. They are operating expenses, which is why UAW cuts into Gm PROFITS. Toyota profits do go overseas, there is no doubt about it. And GM would employ more people than Toyota does if they were competing on fair ground.

This will be a little oversimplified, but see if this makes sense. GM and Toyota sell pretty close to the same number of vehicles yet GM employs 6x the number of people in the US. So it stands to reason that GM would employ 6x the number of people that Toyota currently does in the US if they were selling those vehicles. Although that is not the case, they would still employ more people- period.

GM still employs 6x the amount of people that Toyota does, and would employ more if they were competing on equal ground.

The most idiotic way to think is that payroll is profits, it is not. They are operating expenses, which is why UAW cuts into Gm PROFITS. Toyota profits do go overseas, there is no doubt about it. And GM would employ more people than Toyota does if they were competing on fair ground.

This will be a little oversimplified, but see if this makes sense. GM and Toyota sell pretty close to the same number of vehicles yet GM employs 6x the number of people in the US. So it stands to reason that GM would employ 6x the number of people that Toyota currently does in the US if they were selling those vehicles. Although that is not the case, they would still employ more people- period.


The point is not, how many workers GM employs. Its about the extra 40 thousand workers that benefits from Toyota. While GM and Ford are closing plants here(when US workers could benefit) they are building plants in Korea, Asia and other countries world wide( wow, I guess all the money comes here now :eyes:)

Comcast, SBC and other large US based companies are out sourcing India, instead of employing US citizens. But for some odd reason, I dont here you complaining.



"Now Toyota is marshaling its most formidable asset: its phenomenal wealth. It's on track to make a record profit of $13 billion this year, most of that earned in the United States, where it now sells more cars than it does in Japan. As a result of its enormous profits, Toyota has $36 billion of cash on hand and a stock-market value of more than $200 billion. That's 12 times what GM shares are worth. And Toyota drives that money right back into its cars, outspending GM for the past two years. As a result, Toyota will replace 83 percent of its product line by the end of the decade— the most new models of any automaker, according to Merrill Lynch."


200 billion in stock market value!

The point is not, how many workers GM employs. Its about the extra 40 thousand workers that benefits from Toyota.
But that is exactly the point and you are the one thinking of things completely idiotically. Those jobs used to be GM jobs before Toyota/Japan cut into them with unfair trade practices. That 40k would be well over 100k if they were american made cars. Also the techs and salesmen would be there no matter who made the cars. Toyota completely exaggerates the numbers considering they only employ approximately 17k manufacturing employees. They include people who change oil, tires, etc, but those people would have jobs anyways and they are also not directly employed by Toyota even though that is what they would have you believe.

Do you even know why Toyota manufacturers cars here? It is because Clinton threatened them with high tariffs on imported vehicles like they did to US made products in Japan, so they agreed to start producing vehicles here to avoid the taxes. They didnt do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

The person who keeps making completely idiotic statements here is you. You look at things completely one sided and with no information or facts. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself instead of quoting more and more Toyota fan boy facts.

Also look into how many millions are spent by Toyota every year lobbying to keep their unfair advantage. They make sure they have politicians in their back pocket which I am sure is part of the reason some of the US made Hybrids dont get the tax breaks that the Japanese made hybrids get.

But that is exactly the point and you are the one thinking of things completely idiotically. Those jobs used to be GM jobs before Toyota/Japan cut into them with unfair trade practices. That 40k would be well over 100k if they were american made cars. Also the techs and salesmen would be there no matter who made the cars. Toyota completely exaggerates the numbers considering they only employ approximately 17k manufacturing employees. They include people who change oil, tires, etc, but those people would have jobs anyways and they are also not directly employed by Toyota even though that is what they would have you believe.

Do you even know why Toyota manufacturers cars here? It is because Clinton threatened them with high tariffs on imported vehicles like they did to US made products in Japan, so they agreed to start producing vehicles here to avoid the taxes. They didnt do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

The person who keeps making completely idiotic statements here is you. You look at things completely one sided and with no information or facts. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself instead of quoting more and more Toyota fan boy facts.


Yep I am a Toyota fan boy, with a 2005 Tahoe in my stable :jest: . Your beyond help. Im not going to debate with you any longer. Basically its pointless to try and convince someone, that Toyota is helping the US economy, while GM is building plants in Korea and China :jest: . Go ahead a buy your Mexican built Silverado .

Also look into how many millions are spent by Toyota every year lobbying to keep their unfair advantage. They make sure they have politicians in their back pocket which I am sure is part of the reason some of the US made Hybrids dont get the tax breaks that the Japanese made hybrids get.


Dude your brainwashed. Really :eyes:

Dude your brainwashed. Really :eyes:

It's clear who is "brainwashed."

Yep I am.

Anyone who sides with Oriental Industry obviously has no idea what terrors and horrible things happen behind the Rice Curtain.

This is how their industry works: Steal American or European Idea, Make it cheap, Hope the children solder the board together correctly, Repackage it, and Print a owners' manual with a really shitty translation.

Since I have been working in industry time and time again I have seen it proved that they steal our shit because we implement hidden non-detrimental flaws into products and yet they magically appear in Oriental products of the same specs even though A: They should have of caught and corrected B: Why was the mistake made in the same place. C: If they did find it and knew what it was why didn't they remove the flaw so they didn't get caught.

I am sure this quite moral philosophy extends to all sectors of their industry.

Just to prove it when I went to school I had two Oriental instructors and both of them stole material of textbooks and had it copywrighted under their own name. I mean for real. I am not making this up for some stupid internet post. One even had the maxim: "Cupy Past[e] Cupy Past[e]."

I am aware that the Oriental Automotive Sector doesn't produce fac simile cars to what GM is currently making. However, I am lead to wonder if you dug inside or went back a couple of years in time what you would find out.
------------------------

Besides supporting their other Pirate Business Sectors, being too dependent on cars which utilize parts produced in what I consider unstabile economies is also another point to observe. That is a real point of weakness should there be political conflict in the future over energy sources. Something to really consider if you read up on those leaking nuke plants from the recent earthquake.

Why give money to other people when you could keep it here? Why make other people rich? I am not saying let's go isolationists, but, why import things we can do ourselves.

A lot of people are squimish about REAL jobs in factories. If I got to make something myself I was proud. I had a factory job right out of high school and I don't regret a second of it. We need more American Industry. Probably be a lot less problems in society if young people had meaningful jobs and instead of being the dork Mac Donalds cashier.

Excuse me for the rant and congrats on your 37th post, pssonu. I am going to go get a soda. :chug: :jest:

Also look into how many millions are spent by Toyota every year lobbying to keep their unfair advantage. They make sure they have politicians in their back pocket which I am sure is part of the reason some of the US made Hybrids dont get the tax breaks that the Japanese made hybrids get.

Not brainwashing at ALL. It's entirely true -- the only reason to think otherwise is if you're brainwashed by import publicity. It's not just the hybrids -- it's the incentives to build plants, tax breaks on cars imported from overseas, etc. All for Jap companies that have 15-20% less of their car made of domestic parts or materials than a comparable American car company. Furthermore, their plants aren't subject to unions, and work harder and longer for less pay and far less benefits.

GM employs more Americans than Toyota, period. Tax breaks mentioned above, however, aren't open to GM in America. But they get them in Canada and Mexico, so why not build there? They don't outsource for the fun of it, if they got the same things as the damn Jap auto companies, they'd probably stay here as well.

You can't say that just because Toyota employs 1/6th of the Americans GM does, they're helping our economy and not sending profits overseas. Let's put it this way -- per dollar earned, GM spends more on American payroll and parts than does Toyota. Even if (note bold, IF) some of Toyota's profits stay here, it doesn't matter. Because more of GM's dollar stays here than does Toyota's. For that reason, it's absurd to argue that Toyota is helping the economy more.


EDIT: The comparison to the Duramax wasn't supposed to be fair, like the Tundra commercials weren't. Now take a duramax/allison and a comparably optioned (same cab, bed, no duallies for the Duramax) Tundra and run them, or :gtfo: . I don't believe for a second the Tundra would win till someone shows me.

Also look into how many millions are spent by Toyota every year lobbying to keep their unfair advantage. They make sure they have politicians in their back pocket which I am sure is part of the reason some of the US made Hybrids dont get the tax breaks that the Japanese made hybrids get.


This, to me at least is THE MAJOR issue in this next presidential campaign/election (or ANY office's election for that matter) !!
I REALLY need to know exactly which one of them (from all parties) accepts the most "payola"/bribes (it cannot be viewed as anything less than this!! :pissed: ) from Japan, Inc., as well as any other foreign trade ministries and/or companies, especially China.

Anyone have ANY clue about how I can get this info??!? (So I can vote against them and help defeat the importONLYfanboyzz who just can't wait for their TOY, Japan Inc. (and others) to take over OUR auto industry.)

Do you even know why Toyota manufacturers cars here? It is because Clinton threatened them with high tariffs on imported vehicles like they did to US made products in Japan, so they agreed to start producing vehicles here to avoid the taxes. They didnt do it out of the kindness of their hearts.


You could not be more RIGHT!!! :D :thumb: I have been saying this for YEARS now. All of the lemmings/sheeple somehow believe that it is TOY's "benevolence" towards U.S. (remember who has to live and work here) that is the motivation behind their transplants. I find this to be hilarious, but also very sad. I guess they are looking for an absolution/justification for supporting another country's economy over their own.

You could not be more RIGHT!!! :D :thumb: I have been saying this for YEARS now. All of the lemmings/sheeple somehow believe that it is TOY's "benevolence" towards U.S. (remember who has to live and work here) that is the motivation behind their transplants. I find this to be hilarious, but also very sad. I guess they are looking for an absolution/justification for supporting another country's economy over their own.

Basically. You can see how one of them stepped up to prove my point that they are steadfastly convinced that they are actually helping. Facts don't phase them either. It's like dealing with any other sort of religious zealot.

BTW, this is about as unimportant a voting issue as one can think of, so long as the only right that matters to US citizens (the 2nd Amendment) is threatened. And that is as long as the jackass party (socialists) control the ivory tower and the media, they will continue to make helpless victims out of the populace and scare them into hating freedom, independence, and the one and only thing that secures them.

You're right that ever election is a single issue election, but it's not money, it's the right to secure and enforce your rights that's the issue, and at stake.

Basically. You can see how one of them stepped up to prove my point that they are steadfastly convinced that they are actually helping. Facts don't phase them either. It's like dealing with any other sort of religious zealot.

BTW, this is about as unimportant a voting issue as one can think of, so long as the only right that matters to US citizens (the 2nd Amendment) is threatened. And that is as long as the jackass party (socialists) control the ivory tower and the media, they will continue to make helpless victims out of the populace and scare them into hating freedom, independence, and the one and only thing that secures them.

You're right that ever election is a single issue election, but it's not money, it's the right to secure and enforce your rights that's the issue, and at stake.

I see your point, but this might quickly devolve into a verboten (and therefore locked down) political thread if we continue. You're right, it should NEVER be a "single issue" election, as MOST have made/turned the last two presidential elections into, no matter what that said "single issue" may actually be (or which group shouts the loudest about said given issue, i.e.; right wing fundies OR lefty liberals).

Do you even know why Toyota manufacturers cars here? It is because Clinton threatened them with high tariffs on imported vehicles like they did to US made products in Japan, so they agreed to start producing vehicles here to avoid the taxes. They didnt do it out of the kindness of their hearts.




Probably the best quote in this thread. :)

On the original post-
Isn't the z-71 offroad package the stiffest suspension available? And who knows what's under the ford or toyota! That stiff suspension would seemingly transmit a large amount of shock to the frame, causing the jumping seen by the pick up beds in the shots shown. Also, unless the camera angles where to be exactly the same for the entire run of the course it doesn't seem like a good comparison. And 00pewterSS is correct class 8 trucks do not use a fully boxed frame.

Wow at the ignorance of some people.


Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Kia, etc..... employ 1000's of American workers. But yet you seem to think, everything goes back to Japan :jest:

Does it makes since, if a person in China bought a Z06 Vette, the money would be sent back to Mexico? :jest: LOL at some of the ignorance.

Toyotas made in the U.S.
* Chevys made in Mexico.
* Hondas made with American engines.
* Fords made in Canada
If, going by your post, if I buy a Civic the money stays here, right?
And by extention if I buy a G.M. built in say, Canada the Canadians get all the money, right?
Then how exactly, by your reasoning, is a business man in China sending money to Mexico by buying a Z06 when its built in Kentucky? Shouldn't the money end up in the U.S.? Or did we sell Ky to the Mexicans and I never heard about it?

I've got a great idea for a commercial. Take a Tundra and an F-450 and chain them together in a parking lot. Then drag the Tundra all around the parking lot for 30 seconds and maybe run it into a light post at the end. Then get that annoying-ass guy to say, "You want something with a little more meat on its bones". :judge: :jest:

I Just got back from Soutern Cal. New Tundras all over the place. I don't know how they can fit those things in those little parking spots. Considering hot rodding came out of that area of the country it still amazes me how many imports there are. On the other hand, California has some pretty high #'s for imported people too. One thing I can say about AZ is it's Ford and Chevy country.

When Toyota starts building Lexus here, with mostly North American manufactured parts I will consider one. Considering this will never happen, theres not a Toyota/Lexus in my future.

It's funny how the Chinese expect us to build plants in their country if we want to sell products there, and we don't expect the same of our trading partners... Namely Japan, Germany and China.

Whoops, getting off topic......+10000 GM truck, -10000 Foreign owned Toyota.

Let me quote a related article from Automotive Engineering International July 2007 an SAE publications. Not fingerpointing. Just a related article about the evasion of a 25% tax. :eek2: Now, that is a tarrif!


Sprinter assembled once, then again

Sprinter commerical cargo vans for the US market are assembled in Germany, then disassembled, and reassembled at a South Carolina plant. The reason for this unusal production practice involves money.

"I think it's intriguing in that you have a van that's put together and it's ready to go. But based on one thing -- and that's taxes -- you have it disassembled, put on a boat, brought across the ocean and reasembled," South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford.

--Picture/Caption---

-- Parts Omitted--

...South Carolina is benefitting from a $35 million plant investment that will mean the employment of approximately 200 workers when Sprinter assembly reaches its 32,000-vehicle capacity. "For the volume that we sell in the US, it doesn't make sense to install -- twice -- the safety critical tooling which we need to get the whole of the cab together. That is why we decided to assemble and disassemble in Germany and reassemble the major parts here in Ladson," said DaimlerChrysler AG Executive Vice Presidentt Wilfried Porth, who leads the Mercedes-Benz Vans Business Unit.

--Parts Omitted--