Generation IV Internal Engine - TFS 235cc vs Stage 3 LS6 on stroker graph inside

This is a 13.1 comp stage 3 LS6 head vs 11.8 comp TFS 235cc head on a 414 stroker motor compare graphs. All I did was head swap and ported the FAST. Cam is a RPM 6 244/248...612/615..112LSA. Run 125 is final #, Run 58 is LS6 with timing and run 75 is with LS6 but had to take timing out due to det. Run 120 and 122 were final but RPM got more today.The most my car made with LS6 was 537rwhp and 490rwtq but the graph is choppy from 3500 to 5000 rpm's. If you notice we only pulled run125 up to 6000rpm and 120 and 122 to 6400-6500rpm that is because it flattens from 6000 to 6500 rpm and does not drop so I shift at 6200rpm. So what do yall think? Final #'s 545rwhp 506rwtq. As for the spike at the end the run we did after this run we took it to 6500rpm and made 543rwhp 508rwtq with out the spike,


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So the rumors about the motor being freshened up at the latest round are not true then correct? Just want to make sure that everyone knows the full truth here whatever it may be. Still seems to me there is a restriction somewhere if you are only pulling 6500 RPMs. What springs are on it? Why have a stroker motor and not turn it more then stock cubic inches turn? Take advantage of the bore and put another 1000 rpms with it and a better cam. A reverse grind would be sweet in that setup since you cant catch enough air into it without going with an exotic intake setup. Take the exhaust duration down some and pick up the intake side, grind it on a XFI lobe and cut it on a 113 straight up and degree the cam for best power curves. no advance ground in to it. Restrictions on intake or exhaust limit your RPMs like a rev limiter. I know the car has duals on it and a decent header now so it aint the exhaust side of things.

I'm no head porting genius by any means but its my understanding the 235 Trickflow heads were made to shine with a minimal 4.125 bore found in 427 cubic inch and larger LS Motors. What is the bore size of this 414 motor (I would imagine less than 4.125)?. Also, the bump up in compression to 13:1 to 1 is a significant difference vs. the 11:8 to 1 compression set-up with the TFS 235 heads so I would not think that we are not comparing apples to apples to here!

comparison is worthless :confused:

I'm no head porting genius by any means but its my understanding the 235 Trickflow heads were made to shine with a minimal 4.125 bore found in 427 cubic inch and larger LS Motors. What is the bore size of this 414 motor (I would imagine less than 4.125)?. Also, the bump up in compression to 13:1 to 1 is a significant difference vs. the 11:8 to 1 compression set-up with the TFS 235 heads so I would not think that we are not comparing apples to apples to here!
What do you mean? 13.1 old set up so I drop the comp and still make more power with 2 * of timing more then the old set up is good. Both set ups are with pump gas.

So the rumors about the motor being freshened up at the latest round are not true then correct? Just want to make sure that everyone knows the full truth here whatever it may be. Still seems to me there is a restriction somewhere if you are only pulling 6500 RPMs. What springs are on it? Why have a stroker motor and not turn it more then stock cubic inches turn? Take advantage of the bore and put another 1000 rpms with it and a better cam. A reverse grind would be sweet in that setup since you cant catch enough air into it without going with an exotic intake setup. Take the exhaust duration down some and pick up the intake side, grind it on a XFI lobe and cut it on a 113 straight up and degree the cam for best power curves. no advance ground in to it. Restrictions on intake or exhaust limit your RPMs like a rev limiter. I know the car has duals on it and a decent header now so it aint the exhaust side of things.
The car made 536rwhp and I took it to my boys at RPM and they messed with it some more and got more.

comparison is worthless :confused:

How do you figure? He drops over a full point in compression and still gains power...how is that worthless? Just proves the TFS head is a solid performer.

Marty

I picked up a lot under the curve with the TFS. Compare both set up when they both made 530 I still picked up 30+rwhp thru the whole curve

I picked up a lot under the curve with the TFS. Compare both set up when they both made 530 I still picked up 30+rwhp thru the whole curve

With running less compression with the TFS 235s and making this sig. extra HP under the curve shows the Trick Flow heads kick some serious ass (which we already knew but great to reinforce, etc.).

What is the bore size on this 414 LS motor?

With running less compression with the TFS 235s and making this sig. extra HP under the curve shows the Trick Flow heads kick some serious ass (which we already knew but great to reinforce, etc.).

What is the bore size on this 414 LS motor?
It is a 4.060 bore.

Unless it's the same in every aspect it's not a Apples for Apples test. Sure, it looks like you have a winner but you even said that you ported the intake too...

In back to back testing I like to see "everything" remain the same except for the "one" part you are comparing and testing... Multiple changes or unequal specs. throws off the data... That can not be denied. Again, it "looks" promising and thanks for sharing the data, but it's not a true comparison... Sorry.

You guys need to look at what he has now. Nobody said he was trying to compare apples to apples. Who gives a fuck , he has a motor w/ less compression making more power. He can ride around on pump gas and still kick the old set up's ass. Thats all i need to see and I say congrats and it makes me want the TFS head even more now. On a side note, i would like to see what kind of power that head would make at 13.1 also but thats not the direction he wanted to go. Good luck with your new power. :-)

That's excellent power under the curve in what appears to be a very streetable package. I'd like to see the pulls to 7000rpm as your dyno pulls are ending at peak power. How your motor pulls past peak is very important to know.

That's excellent power under the curve in what appears to be a very streetable package. I'd like to see the pulls to 7000rpm as your dyno pulls are ending at peak power. How your motor pulls past peak is very important to know.Him nor the shop understand that rpm = mph. If its still pulling and especially flat, stay in it!

Unless it's the same in every aspect it's not a Apples for Apples test. Sure, it looks like you have a winner but you even said that you ported the intake too...

In back to back testing I like to see "everything" remain the same except for the "one" part you are comparing and testing... Multiple changes or unequal specs. throws off the data... That can not be denied. Again, it "looks" promising and thanks for sharing the data, but it's not a true comparison... Sorry.
Ok. The dyno graph making 532rwhp is without the ported intake. So now compare. Heads vs heads I still picked good power

I wanna see a pull to 8k :)

I want to see him pull it to 7500... he has the valvetrain to support the RPM... on the ported fast dyno.... it wasnt falling over... why stop less than 6500??? Pull that bitch harder... i am sure you have more power in more rpm? :bomb: :bomb:

Good information. Thanks!!

damn, awesome heads!!!

Ok. The dyno graph making 532rwhp is without the ported intake. So now compare. Heads vs heads I still picked good power


Yes you did. I believe I said it looked good and I even thanked you for posting the data. Hell, you "probably" would have a bigger spread between the two heads with the compression was at 13:1 for both... BUT that too is only speculation. But with that said, the TFS heads look great on paper and in the real world as this test shows... Congrats! But quite frankly, I would have been shocked if that head didn't out perform a ported factory head... Don't you agree?

And just so you know I'm not a TFS basher, I just got a set of these heads and will be doing some testing of my own. And yes, I expect good things from these heads.

If I peak out at 6000-6100rpms. Does that mean my FAST is choking it up?

How do you figure? He drops over a full point in compression and still gains power...how is that worthless? Just proves the TFS head is a solid performer.

MartyBecause he ported the intake when switching to TFS. Duh. Not a straight heads comparison

What springs are on it? Why have a stroker motor and not turn it more then stock cubic inches turn? Take advantage of the bore and put another 1000 rpms with it and a better cam. A reverse grind would be sweet in that setup since you cant catch enough air into it without going with an exotic intake setup. Take the exhaust duration down some and pick up the intake side, grind it on a XFI lobe and cut it on a 113 straight up and degree the cam for best power curves. no advance ground in to it. Restrictions on intake or exhaust limit your RPMs like a rev limiter. I know the car has duals on it and a decent header now so it aint the exhaust side of things.

The springs are the Max Pressure, one step above the Extremes, open pressure is around 450 lbs, so it's not the springs.

I agree with you on changing the cam, the TFS 235 heads have a tremendous exhaust port and I would venture to say is overscavenging at the higher RPM's. We have changed only the exhaust side of a head before to one that is larger and flows more and made less HP and dropped power sooner. The exhaust port on the TFS 235 is probably better sized to 427+ cu in engines. You do need more intake duration, and going single pattern or even reverse should help, and I would even go out to 114 LSA to help minimize the overscavenging, and like WOTFMAN said, advance really isn't needed.

If I peak out at 6000-6100rpms. Does that mean my FAST is choking it up?


possibly... also means the cam is running out of steam.

The springs are the Max Pressure, one step above the Extremes, open pressure is around 450 lbs, so it's not the springs.

I agree with you on changing the cam, the TFS 235 heads have a tremendous exhaust port and I would venture to say is overscavenging at the higher RPM's. We have changed only the exhaust side of a head before to one that is larger and flows more and made less HP and dropped power sooner. The exhaust port on the TFS 235 is probably better sized to 427+ cu in engines. You do need more intake duration, and going single pattern or even reverse should help, and I would even go out to 114 LSA to help minimize the overscavenging, and like WOTFMAN said, advance really isn't needed.
So what size cam is needed? Do think the TFS 225 would of been better for my set up?

So what size cam is needed? Do think the TFS 225 would of been better for my set up?

No.... difference is negligible. also the larger ports might be better for the sauce!

Cam...... good question. To optimize the setup you need to take it to a cam doctor and get a cam matched to those cathedral heads and composite intake.

I wanna see a pull to 8k :)
You'll see that soon with your own stuff boy!

If I peak out at 6000-6100rpms. Does that mean my FAST is choking it up?

Possibly so....That car needs a reverse grind IMO.. Its got a pretty decent exhaust port that will flow a bunch of air and on top of that you have a very good exhaust setup. Personally It needs a larger intake lobe with a mean .200 duration number and a weaker exhaust lobe. Grind it straight up and the car will pick up. I can cam it for you but you wont be using your tuner to make the power i know what my grinds are capable of doing. the heads we know can make power, but once its cammed correctly its all in the tuning on who gets it all out. He's local to you. There will be no excuses once its cammed and hes got the tune down.

The springs are the Max Pressure, one step above the Extremes, open pressure is around 450 lbs, so it's not the springs.

I agree with you on changing the cam, the TFS 235 heads have a tremendous exhaust port and I would venture to say is overscavenging at the higher RPM's. We have changed only the exhaust side of a head before to one that is larger and flows more and made less HP and dropped power sooner. The exhaust port on the TFS 235 is probably better sized to 427+ cu in engines. You do need more intake duration, and going single pattern or even reverse should help, and I would even go out to 114 LSA to help minimize the overscavenging, and like WOTFMAN said, advance really isn't needed.


Well said Brian. We are on the same page here.

possibly... also means the cam is running out of steam.Its not really the cam that runs out of steam. Its the motors ability to take on air and exhaust it. What you are trying to say is what we have all been telling him all along. the cam is WRONG.

8000 rpm's :eek2:

You guys are crazy :secret2:

What is the ICL of the current cam? Do you have an adjustable cam sprocket so you can advance or retard the cam?

Possibly so....That car needs a reverse grind IMO.. Its got a pretty decent exhaust port that will flow a bunch of air and on top of that you have a very good exhaust setup. Personally It needs a larger intake lobe with a mean .200 duration number and a weaker exhaust lobe. Grind it straight up and the car will pick up. I can cam it for you but you wont be using your tuner to make the power i know what my grinds are capable of doing. the heads we know can make power, but once its cammed correctly its all in the tuning on who gets it all out. He's local to you. There will be no excuses once its cammed and hes got the tune down.

I recommend Chris Marsh on the tune......he seems to take the time with cars from what I hear.

What is the ICL of the current cam? Do you have an adjustable cam sprocket so you can advance or retard the cam?


no... but you are going the right direction... he will likely help those heads by getting the cam degreed to match them. correct the advance and change intake centerline.

What is the ICL of the current cam? Do you have an adjustable cam sprocket so you can advance or retard the cam?
No. How much for one.

Does anybody think its valvetrain issues. I was told so many diff things today. Do this do that try this try that.

I recommend Chris Marsh on the tune......he seems to take the time with cars from what I hear.Go push your favorite tuner. Leave mine alone.

Does anybody think its valvetrain issues. I was told so many diff things today. Do this do that try this try that.

What the longer pushrod those heads require I could see a little bit of valvetrain deflection there. I dont think its the solution to why the car falls dead on its face though at 6100. Tell your tuner to take away fuel up top and see if it picks up. It if it does its doing what the call EGR'ing or lack of better terms reversion. Im not saying it is but it could be a great start to move you forward. Like someone else mentioned, if the car has an adjustable timing set, retard the cam 4 degrees and i bet it picks up some there too.

What the longer pushrod those heads require I could see a little bit of valvetrain deflection there. I dont think its the solution to why the car falls dead on its face though at 6100. Tell your tuner to take away fuel up top and see if it picks up. It if it does its doing what the call EGR'ing or lack of better terms reversion. Im not saying it is but it could be a great start to move you forward. Like someone else mentioned, if the car has an adjustable timing set, retard the cam 4 degrees and i bet it picks up some there too.
How much for the adj timing set?

I've got the Comp adjustable timing set and have had it for probably 30,000 miles. I just put a LS2 chain on it and figure I'm good for another 30,000. The beauty of the Comp sprocket is that it's infinitely variable , not like other sets that are every 2*s, 0,2,4,6 etc. I think I paid like $125 for sprockets and chain. Cheap and reliable. I dont know why more people don't use them, maybe because it's single not double chain.

It made great power congrats!!! I have been meaning to get my fast intake and tb both ported they are showing major restriction and choking my heads. I expect to see gains of 15-20rwhp, but only up top right now my graph flatlines at 6200-7000 stays right around 526rwhp. Your gains show that the heads helped out alot under the curve and well all over the place with the drop in comp.

Thomas

How much for the adj timing set?200ish

Id be a little leary of your current shop if they never degreed it in the first place. If they did, my apologies but because you dont have an adjustable timing set or the stock set bushing'd with degree bushings something tells me they installed it without degreeing and especially since its got advance ground in. Id rather grind a cam straight up and degree it for my power curves im trying to generate then guess and advance it 4 degrees off of the ICL to get it to run down low. Sounds like a bunch of flat rating going on if I had to say so.

Id rather grind a cam straight up and degree it for my power curves im trying to generate then guess and advance it 4 degrees off of the ICL to get it to run down low. Sounds like a bunch of flat rating going on if I had to say so.
Hmmm, LME just completed my motor with a Cam Motion custom grind, where they installed the cam with 4 degree's advance.