Automotive News, Media & Press - More Lutz B.S.?

Just saw a Pontiac commercial about the G6 having better EPA ratings than Camry and more power??(Solara maybe??) And how the G5 has more power than a Scion Tc. A badge engineered Cobalt. Thought that Pontiac was going after BMW. :eyes: :gay: Everywere I look in G.M.'s family I still see badge engineering across the board. Colbalt=G5, Solstice=Sky, The new Acadia=Outlook=Enclave hell, their pricing is stepping on each others toes. Now Chevy is getting one too.
http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/13850/spied-2009-chevrolet-traverse.html
Trailblazer=Envoy=Rainier=Saab 9-7x(the Saab is getting a 6.0L too)
http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/13653/2008-saab-9-7x-aero.html

Why all the double talk Lutz? Why can Saturn of all companies get a under-the-skin-twin for the Solstice but won't confirm a Pontiac version of the Camaro? The last GTO left a bitter taste in the mouth of many Poncho fans.
It was rushed to market and half baked. A fine car, just not worthy of the hallowed GTO name. And the buying public agrees you can still by a new 06 as G.M. rolls out 08's. Check it out!
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?num_records=&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=new&distance=0&address=15627&marketZipError=false&style_flag=1&make=PONT&model=GTO&make2=&start_year=2005&end_year=2008&min_price=&max_price=&transmission=&engine=&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=&color=&keywords_display=&sort_type=priceDESC&body_code=0&certified=&advanced=&default_sort=priceDESC&awsp=false&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=
I want a Firebird. A new one. But, I want one done right. Not just a badge. Is that so wrong?

Damn right.
:cheers:

If Lutz wants Pontiac to get real he will have something to compete with the 3 and 5 series...that means totally new cars...for the 3 series competition at least...and the body styling has to be different. Big nostrils does not a BMW competitor make.

W

Most people that work at GM aren't that smart.
Just my 2 cents.

Very good point.... man I really wish he read this stuff and posted on here. I would love to see his reply to that!

your not going to get a response from the ivory tower

I find it odd that he talks about wanting to make Pontiac the competition for BMW, but it looks like Cadillac is doing that. They are making the RWD sedans with the options and power. The new CTS I think even has 306 HP with the V6, this is even 3 more than they pump out of the 5.3 in the Grand Prix GXP.

The G8 is a step in the right direction, kind of, but now I see it being crossed to the Chevy line and being dubbed the new Impala. Instead of just abusing the Holden plants in Aussie, why not just directly import the cars here instead of rebadging them as a Pontiac.

They need to start with something from the ground up, go to the roots of 30 years ago and make it all about performance, build a new REAL GTO, but instead of just being a drag race demon make it something that can lap the 3 series around a race track at the same time.

Unless there is some serious change in the future, I don't think Pontiac is going to be around much longer. :(

Exactly, Caddy is the BMW competitor, not Pontiac. Pontiac however is still the Performance division. The trouble is that Putz...err "Lutz" is going out of his way to intentionally try to harm it as much as he possibly can (like undermining the best thing to happen to them in ages - the Solstice, by giving one to F@^$ing SATURN for god's sake) at every opportunity.

The G5 makes sense. And as always, we see that any time Pontiac and chevy both work on the same platform, Pontiac ALWAYS makes it look better. Significantly.

The G6's rock and cover all the bases - Sedan, Coupe, and hard top 'vert. As the widened GXP.R they were mean as hell. If only they were AWD (like the concept) or RWD it would be so much better, but even as it stands it's a great replacement for the Grand Am and Prix.

G8's cover the sedan perforamance market that isn't into luxury.

The Vibe should be AWD (I've heard it is, but it doesn't show that on the website). It's got the potential to play with the Evos and WRXs if AWD and turboed, and could also go after the Scion Xb, Xa and general "cross-over" market.

What's missing is the Trans Am. But I think Lutz knows this and that's why he's so against it.


BTW, in reference to the OP, the Solstice is not a badge engineered Sky. You have that backwards.

Exactly, Caddy is the BMW competitor, not Pontiac. Pontiac however is still the Performance division. The trouble is that Putz...err "Lutz" is going out of his way to intentionally try to harm it as much as he possibly can (like undermining the best thing to happen to them in ages - the Solstice, by giving one to F@^$ing SATURN for god's sake) at every opportunity.

The G5 makes sense. And as always, we see that any time Pontiac and chevy both work on the same platform, Pontiac ALWAYS makes it look better. Significantly.

The G6's rock and cover all the bases - Sedan, Coupe, and hard top 'vert. As the widened GXP.R they were mean as hell. If only they were AWD (like the concept) or RWD it would be so much better, but even as it stands it's a great replacement for the Grand Am and Prix.

G8's cover the sedan perforamance market that isn't into luxury.

The Vibe should be AWD (I've heard it is, but it doesn't show that on the website). It's got the potential to play with the Evos and WRXs if AWD and turboed, and could also go after the Scion Xb, Xa and general "cross-over" market.

What's missing is the Trans Am. But I think Lutz knows this and that's why he's so against it.


BTW, in reference to the OP, the Solstice is not a badge engineered Sky. You have that backwards.

Don't you mean a Firebird and a new Fiero?

I find it odd that he talks about wanting to make Pontiac the competition for BMW, but it looks like Cadillac is doing that. They are making the RWD sedans with the options and power. The new CTS I think even has 306 HP with the V6, this is even 3 more than they pump out of the 5.3 in the Grand Prix GXP.

The G8 is a step in the right direction, kind of, but now I see it being crossed to the Chevy line and being dubbed the new Impala. Instead of just abusing the Holden plants in Aussie, why not just directly import the cars here instead of rebadging them as a Pontiac.

They need to start with something from the ground up, go to the roots of 30 years ago and make it all about performance, build a new REAL GTO, but instead of just being a drag race demon make it something that can lap the 3 series around a race track at the same time.

Unless there is some serious change in the future, I don't think Pontiac is going to be around much longer. :(

I hear that allllll the time.
All large displacement RWD car development is done in Australia according to corporate organziation. Maybe that is why? I don't believe they would restructure just for that. Don't ask me about Cady though. I don't know if that is a diff case.

BTW, in reference to the OP, the Solstice is not a badge engineered Sky. You have that backwards.

That list was to show how so many products that have come out recently are still just badge engineered. So the Solstice does equal Sky. Not that the Sky spawned the Soltice. That they are the same car. Ever see this before??
http://www.opel.de/shop/cars/gt/index.act

But as the Opel Gt is not marketed here (at least not as a Opel) it isn't really a example of badge engineering in the U.S. Just a way of G.M. getting more mileage out of a exsisting car. Which is understandable. I just don't see the business case for four(4) different Lambda vehicles competing in the same market for almost the exact prices. Why does Buick need one? Chevy can send its customers to GMC or to Saturn. Or kill off Saturn altogether and route the funds to Pontiac. The new Astra 3 door is a better looking car than the Colbalt or G5 IMHO. Throw a Arrowhead on it with some 17" wheels and call it a G3 Gt. The Astra is the only reason Saturn has a reason to be around.
Pontiac SUV's are just stupid as are Pontiac Minivans. The Driving Excitement brand is slowly heading in the right direction as the Torrent is being killed off.
Buick, should stick to 4-door cars. Let GMC have the SUV's. Since the 3 are sold at the same dealerships. G.M. has 2 competing SUV's under one roof
with the Enclave and Acadia. :huh: :eyes:

Did anyone stop to think about any of this before it went to market? :( :disgust:

The G8 is a step in the right direction, kind of, but now I see it being crossed to the Chevy line and being dubbed the new Impala. Instead of just abusing the Holden plants in Aussie, why not just directly import the cars here instead of rebadging them as a Pontiac.

The G8's platform is one of GMs global chassis. The new Impala is supposed to be based off that chassis, and I see no reason not to.
I dont understand, what should they be badged as? A Holden? Probably more than 3/4 of the US has no clue what Holden is.

They need to start with something from the ground up, go to the roots of 30 years ago and make it all about performance, build a new REAL GTO, but instead of just being a drag race demon make it something that can lap the 3 series around a race track at the same time.

Heh, heres the real kicker, the Holden GTO we got COULD do that!

BMW's are expensive luxury cars with a name that brings in a lot of cache.

Pontiac's name is tarnished from building junk and being mismanaged since the mid 70's. Nobody sees a Pontiac as a status symbol, just another average american car. Let Caddy wage war with BMW. Nobody would pay more than about $35000 for a Pontiac.

Here's what GM should do, IMO:

1. Make Chevy the everyman car. This is GM's entry level brand, the cars should be economical, but not a cheap pos. Offer a nice, big, luxurios sedan to fill that niche Buick currently has.

2. Kill Buick and Saturn. Sell Saab. GM has too many similar models that compete with eachother.

3. GMC If you want a crossover/suv/truck that is more stylish and luxurious than a Chevy. Don't sell any work trucks. Charge a premium so it won't compete with Chevy

4. Pontiac This is the brand for driving enthusiasts. All cars should have a reliatively stiff stock suspension, and have a manual trans available with every engine combo. No FWD V6 family cars. AWD or RWD, and maybe a small, $20,000 FWD G5 that doesn't look lame. With optional turbo power.

4. Pontia

They need to give Pontiac the axe, to much badge enginereing. It would helps all for Chevrolet not to have to carry Pontiac so those money's could be put back into Chevy instead of enginering a little bit different style of plastic panel for all cheesy crap Pontiac does. Pontiac lost there personality when they stopped making there own engines (aka 400, 455 etc) and started using small block Chevy's, and the lsx IS a small block Chevy. Chevy has more of a performance heritage than Pontiac anyway.

There hasn't been a brand engine since the 70s. No surpise to see a chevy fanboi calling for Pontiac to be put under. Hate that another division always has better looking more exciting cars than your pride and joy.

Anyway, in reference to similar models - they do not self compete. This is a total fallacy. Think about it - if I buy a G5 that doesn't take sales away from GM, vs buying a cobalt, does it? The chassis is still sold, GM still makes money.

The ONLY time that matters is when you are looking at brand sales. If, for example, you are trying to turn a brand around and then offer the turn around car to another brand with more aggressive styling for roughly the same price point. THAT is a bad idea. (and that's why Putz did it)

Any other time, it's just a matter of helping the mothership. By re-styling a car and giving it different options, they open up a larger potential market for very little cost.

And when you look at any example of a chevy platform being worked on by Pontiac, it's always an improvement. So you have the the people who are obsessesd with bright chevy bages (sorta like bright shiny objects) buying anything from that division, the rest of us can buy the improved version. And it's a win-win, BECAUSE..... we wouldn't ever stoop so low as to buy something from chevy.

There's a reason I have owned 3 Trans Ams, and it's NOT because I live next door to a Pontiac dealer (because I DON'T). It's because I wanted a Trans Am. Strange concept, but there it is. A camaro is NOT a viable replacement. I know I'm not alone. This is the point of putting out different versions of a car, some people won't care for the look and interior and options of one model, but may well like it with a different twist (I am a Dodge fan and don't care much for Plymouth _but_, the (original) Challenger is ugly, but the 'Cuda is bad ass - so it's not even just about brand).

Also, by being the performance division, it actually _makes sense_ for the cars to be shared platforms from other brands as they are the hopped up performance versions.

On top of that, Pontiac is kicking ass right now. Too many cool models. On the one hand (and yes, I'm rambling now lol), I'd like to see all FWD crap dumped, on the other hand it makes sense to cover the entire market from stem to stern with Pontiac options. 4, 6, 8 cylinders, FWD and RWD, 2 and 4 doors, etc. We just need some AWD, and yes, a new Fiero would kick ass too.

O.k. so you advocating brand enginereing. If you want a remade Chevy go get one 'cause that's what your buying. Where would GM be without Pontiac? Probally would'nt notice there gone. Where would GM be without Chevy? Probally out of business. I'm just saying if they concentrated more on less brands we would all be better off. As for Pontiac being the performance division, I have'nt noticed, I thought Chevy was with there SS line kills the Pontiacs because of less frills. Less frills = less weight = more performance. As you would not consider a Camaro I would not consider a TransAm, even though it has a Chevy heart. Brand engines were made into the mid 80's except for the TransAm. It became a Camaro in '82.

GM Powertrain has designed all the recent engines. Sorry to break it to you. Claim whatever lineage you want, but the fact remains there is no such thing as a brand engine being put into production car and there hasn't been for decades.

Less frills? Ever here of Formula? lol No, you wouldn't care, you're blinded by the chevy badge.

Me? I've had Olds, Pontiac, like many Caddys, and am a staunch GM supporter, but yet, never liked 1 single Buick, and only 1 true chevy (the 55-57 shoebox). The GM flagship isn't even truly a chevy (envisioned and desgined by Harley Earl, who was head of all GM design, and arbitrarily handed to chevy, and has pretty much always been designed by a nearly autonomous group. They just slap the badge on and sell it at the dealers).

All that aside, let's see - the 1st Gen Firebirds were faster than camaros (thanks to John Delorean), the 2nd Gen chassis was designed by a Pontiac designer, and chevy adapted it to the camaro, the 3rd Gen Firebirds were among the aerodynamically cleanest cars ever made (which is why Gale Banks specifically chose a GTA, NOT a camaro, to break land speed records with), Hollywood recognized that the 2nd and 3rd Gen Pontiacs had star potential, whereas the camars did not (the Trans Am is just plain better looking), and the GTA... that was all ABOUT frills. Frills are the damn point. Actually, that's part of hte point of Pontiac. It's ABOVE chevy. chevy is the entry level. Pontiac is more luxurious. Even the old GTOs were expensive and luxurious. An attempt was made to no-frills it to compete with Chrysler, but it was canned because it was not truly a Pontiac. The GTA was a true GT car. The T/A followed this throughout the 3rd and 4th Gens (the GTA more or less became the regular T/A). More amenities, more comfort, more usability. Keep your no-frills. That's another reason to steer clear of camaros (as if one could get past that nasty appearance). Funny how as time moved on the camaro stole more and more of the T/As amenities. So much for "no frills" eh? lol

Buick would not be a loss. Pontiac would be. It's making a name in racing, the G8 is going to be in teh face of the false-Charger and 300C, the Soltice is killing the Miata, the Vibe is winning reviewers hearts, it's going strong. It's an important part. I know you can't accept it, but it's true. It started the muscle car movement, and has been the home of performance since the 60s.

The torrent, astek and montanna were all due to the dealers being listened to. Bad idea. Thankfully they are all going away.

Buick really is the only one out of place right now. And that could be absorbed by chevy as the upper level of economy luxury before making the jump to Caddy.

The rest all have a place and are doing well. You just have a stick up your ass about Pontiac and feel the need to come in here slinging mud in an attempt to feel better about yourself. Did it work? Do you really feel it necessary to *start* trouble like this? Or can you just let it go now?

You can't except so you start making stuff up. The gen I smallblock chevy was a 265, that series went to the LT1 in '92/93 (Gen II for you) then came the gen III do you see where I 'm going. Look in the GMPP catalog, ls1's has a sbc beside them (smallbock chevy for you). 1st gen fbody's were dominated by Camaro's. The firebird was a afterthought in 1st gen design. Just as when pontiac wanted a Corvette and had a concept called the chickenHawk or something cheesy like that. Talk about badge engineering. Take a hint Camaro's were faster and far more popular (that's why they sod more) than a Firebird (ever heard of 302's, 396's, 427's L88 and ZL1) Firebirds really had somthing for them. TransAm what joke, it swept that series did'nt it.I tried to keep it cival, but since you can't..... I don't need your dumbass to feel better about anything, you started it and I fineshed it. You can't handle the facts. .......... p.s. ""the vibe is winning peoples hearts"??????/ IT'S A TOYATA YOU DUMBASS. More badge engineering from Pontiac, if they can't make it better they'll make it cheesier,lol.

You're an idiot in denial, and an ass that has to start shit to feel better about himself. Rather sad actually.

Delorean proposed a 2 seat sports car called the Banshee - nothing to do with the Corvettem, except for being shot down because of it. He was told he could take the F-Body and make something out of that if he chose. He had very little time to do anything with it, and wasn't happy about losing his project, so he told GM management he was going to break the engine size rules. Despite the short time, it STILL ended up better looking. Which is no surprise really. And yes, it was faster. Sorry to tell you what you don't want to hear.

However, you were right about one thing, the fugly camaro did dominate in sales. Trouble is, you desperately want that to be a reflection capability, and it's not. The reason it dominated in sales is because of people like you. Easily distracted by bright shiny objects and obsessed with bright chevy badges. You'd by anything from chevy.

You have never had any interest in keeping anything civil. You came in showing us your ass and trying to shit on everything. Now you're trying to put a spin on your pathetic nature and lack of knowledge.

Funny as hell too. See, if you had ANY interest in "keeping it civil", you'd do a little research and find that I've talked about the Matrix being AWD and asking why the Vibe wasn't. But, research is beyond you. You'd prefer to mis-interpret and show what an ass you are. Nevermind that the Vibe brings money to Pontiac and people into the showrooms. Something else that pisses you off. lol How sad. I wish you were local to me, you'd provide endless entertainment. lol

But I'll have to settle for the internet I guess. So.... dance for us fool. I'm bored. :nod:

2. Kill Buick.


You can't kill Buick, they can't keep them on the lots right now and it is the largest selling car in China, which will exceed America's demand for cars in the next few years. It is a bright sport for GM and they know it.

Oh yeah about two years back I called all the GM executives a bunch of Homos on this board, just upset in the direction GM was going.
Scott Settlemire called me out on it...They do read this and will answer if you piss them off. I suppose I deserved it.

I was just mad because my stock was in the drink and I had seen a show where the put an LS6 in an HHR and the product line manager said "Who would have thought that would fit in there and who would want one?"

Didn't the Mid 80's 442 have a Olds307? I could be wrong wouldn't be the first time.

Oh yeah I was going to add, I know nothing about running a business that large.
I will say they are getting better. I do believe that the oldest two Chasiss they now have are the one the Malibu is built on and the Uplander are built on are gone after this year. Which is good those things were outdated.
The Malibu is sharp and they can't keep there Crossovers on the lots.
The G8 is on the Zeta Platform which the Impala and New Camaro will share.
While we as car guys don't like badge engineering (uh remeber the Cimmaron, ok maybe you don't want to, good on your part), my guess is there are a lot of people out there who could care less.
Making similar cars saves GM money and eventually the end user because parts are cheap as hell.

O.k. so you advocating brand enginereing. If you want a remade Chevy go get one 'cause that's what your buying. Where would GM be without Pontiac? Probally would'nt notice there gone. Where would GM be without Chevy? Probally out of business. I'm just saying if they concentrated more on less brands we would all be better off. As for Pontiac being the performance division, I have'nt noticed, I thought Chevy was with there SS line kills the Pontiacs because of less frills. Less frills = less weight = more performance. As you would not consider a Camaro I would not consider a TransAm, even though it has a Chevy heart. Brand engines were made into the mid 80's except for the TransAm. It became a Camaro in '82.

For every year a Pontiac engine was offered in a F-body it would walk the Camaro. When they went away from making their own engines, whos engines did they can first? Pontiacs... and not because it was crap or anything, they were the most costly engines being made and they had to scrap up pennies from somewhere. The engineers back than understood the power was in the heads, get the air in and get the air out, simple as that, imply big valves to help with this. John DeLorean was a big help, he went and propsed the Banshee but the Vette team threw a fit and that was the end of that and he was told to build from the F-body platform. If I remember right, the engine DeLoreon developed for the Banshee was put into the 69 Trans Am's (Ram Air IV engine?) and was a real tire eater.

When the F-body was first brought into concept there was no Firebird, I think it was like two weeks DeLorean built the car up in with the body changes and their own engine, that would walk the Chevy, good proof of this is the Chevy guys at the factory putting dirt in the bumpers and other parts of the bird to try and weigh it down. Those old pontiacs sure were junk, I guess that is why Yearone decided on the remodel of the 78 Bandit TA they would offer a Pontiac engine in the high end of the car right? Could just shove a LSx engine or a SBC in there like everyone else does. :eyes:


Chevy is the entrance brand level of cars for people, you want something without power locks and power windows, you can look here if KIA doesn't interest you... Even the Monte Carlo's that share the same platform as my GTP don't have heated seats, HUD, or a 3.8 supercharged until 03 or so came around. But everytime I go to the track or the street and there is someone there with their Intimidator SS with a N/A 3.8 they are always somehow conviced because it is a Chevy and a SS it will destroy the blown version of the engine. :gtfo:

GM can't afford completely unique cars for every one of it's brands. They can't afford to close divisions, they can't afford to pay for UAW healthcare and pensions, and they are mortgaged up to their eyeballs just to keep the business running.

So threadstarter, how would YOU propose GM find the money to engineer completely unique cars for each brand? Especially when no other automaker, even Toyota, doesn't do it themselves.

It makes much more fiscal sense to engineer one stellar vehicle, then differentiate it well for each brand like GM did with the Acadia, Enclave and Outlook. Than to engineer 3 completely different vehicles that fill the same market.

For every year a Pontiac engine was offered in a F-body it would walk the Camaro. When they went away from making their own engines, whos engines did they can first? Pontiacs... and not because it was crap or anything, they were the most costly engines being made and they had to scrap up pennies from somewhere. The engineers back than understood the power was in the heads, get the air in and get the air out, simple as that, imply big valves to help with this. John DeLorean was a big help, he went and propsed the Banshee but the Vette team threw a fit and that was the end of that and he was told to build from the F-body platform. If I remember right, the engine DeLoreon developed for the Banshee was put into the 69 Trans Am's (Ram Air IV engine?) and was a real tire eater.

When the F-body was first brought into concept there was no Firebird, I think it was like two weeks DeLorean built the car up in with the body changes and their own engine, that would walk the Chevy, good proof of this is the Chevy guys at the factory putting dirt in the bumpers and other parts of the bird to try and weigh it down. Those old pontiacs sure were junk, I guess that is why Yearone decided on the remodel of the 78 Bandit TA they would offer a Pontiac engine in the high end of the car right? Could just shove a LSx engine or a SBC in there like everyone else does. :eyes:


Chevy is the entrance brand level of cars for people, you want something without power locks and power windows, you can look here if KIA doesn't interest you... Even the Monte Carlo's that share the same platform as my GTP don't have heated seats, HUD, or a 3.8 supercharged until 03 or so came around. But everytime I go to the track or the street and there is someone there with their Intimidator SS with a N/A 3.8 they are always somehow conviced because it is a Chevy and a SS it will destroy the blown version of the engine. :gtfo:

1st of all, the Z/28 and ZL1 would walk all over the 1st and 2nd gen T/A's. 2nd, Poncho engines sound like tractors. Third, the two fastest firebirds ever issued by GM BOTH used a different divisions powerplant. Fourth, the '96 Impala SS would ANNIHILATE a Bonneville SSEi. Do I really need to keep listing reasons?

Yes, Pontiac should be a level above Chevy, but to be honest, Chevy needs to start costing a bit less....It's fighting Saturn for it's slot....

Nothing is going to happen unless peoples perceptions change about the products that GM makes, who cares what part of GM makes it or whos name is on it as long as the General makes it. That is just ridiculous. They need a way to get the Import brainwashed folks into the show room

Not to be a dick but the 95-96 Impala SSs run right about 15.30 to 15.60 bone stock
The SSEi Bonneville of the same time frame runs 15.40 to 15.80. They were failrly evenly matched.
I would pefer the Impala SS as it is rear wheel drive and has a good aftermarket.
Just an observation.

Luts is a Putz....how smart is it to get into competition with BMW when they are talking about taking out the Pontiac line completely? Shows you how big a fool is running GM

So threadstarter, how would YOU propose GM find the money to engineer completely unique cars for each brand? Especially when no other automaker, even Toyota, doesn't do it themselves.

YES!! At least someone ^^^ is awake, cognisant, and NOT brainwashed!!!

Every time I am stopped at a light next to an ES series Lexus, I shout out "Nice f'ing CAMRY"!!!!! :rotflmao:

YES!! At least someone ^^^ is awake, cognisant, and NOT brainwashed!!!

Every time I am stopped at a light next to an ES series Lexus, I shout out "Nice f'ing CAMRY"!!!!! :rotflmao:
Or the TSX/Accord.

I think it is a great idea when the cars look different. The Acadia, Outlook and Enclave are all good looking and look very different. Now the G5/Cobalt or Torrent/Equinox are way too much alike. Only having to engineer one chassis and assembly line saves a lot of money and can result in good product.

You keep making excuses for Pontiac. I guesse since your such a Pontiac boy you never noticed how much the Banshee resembled a Vette, the first concept was in the early '70s, blinded but those ugly ass kindney grilles I assume. The Vibe had a awd option, do a little more research. I'm done talking to you. You started the name calling. My moms Impala SS ran 15.0 bonestock to the airfilter.

GM can't afford completely unique cars for every one of it's brands. They can't afford to close divisions, they can't afford to pay for UAW healthcare and pensions, and they are mortgaged up to their eyeballs just to keep the business running.

So threadstarter, how would YOU propose GM find the money to engineer completely unique cars for each brand? Especially when no other automaker, even Toyota, doesn't do it themselves.

It makes much more fiscal sense to engineer one stellar vehicle, then differentiate it well for each brand like GM did with the Acadia, Enclave and Outlook. Than to engineer 3 completely different vehicles that fill the same market.

Well,
1. I would still axe Buick in North America(Acadia,Enclave same showroom :huh: )
2. Using the same platform is one thing. Overlapping the costs and options so much is another. The current crossovers again point to this they are all with in a few thousand of each other in price.
3. Brand engineer for the target audience. Saturn's are small car,conservitive shoppers. The Sky is very "look at me". Make them like Honda fighter. Small fuel efficent and dependable. Like they were supposed to be originally.
Chevy-the everyday car. I wouldn't tweek the line up much at all right now.
I however would not give them the Traverse. Tahoe, Trailblazer, Suburban, Equinox shit thats enough! Caddy is heading in the right direction too. Might axe the Escalade Ext or what ever the truck is. Pontiac-Sports and performance-Hi-po versions of some Chevy's. If they must sell a G5 make it the supercharged version instead of the SS model or offer it in a 2-door only and supercharged. Since the Torrent is axed the SUV Pontiac thing is dead (for the moment) A shift to RWD is expected and I hope it happens.
GMC should only sell well optioned model of the truck and SUV line. Alter the PCM's abit and offer modest (20-30 hp) power increases over the Chevys.
Maybe offer AWD on more models.
4. My original post was directed at the double talk of Lutz. G.M. was to stop or at least slow down the badge engineering. How can you make a case for a Sky AND Solstice but not a Camaro AND Firebird?? :mad: "There will be no new Firebird" Lutz has said this time and time again. Why??
5. Sell Saab.
6. I am not sure what the profit margin is on the Hummer brand but it seems like Hummers are a answer for a question no one asked. "Do soccer moms need a foot of ground clearance and horrible gas mileage to go to the mall and pick up lil Jill's prom dress?" "YES!!" Hardcore offroaders will build their own. And they don't compete with the Wrangler i terms of BASE price. So whats the point of the Hummer brand?

YES!! At least someone ^^^ is awake, cognisant, and NOT brainwashed!!!

Every time I am stopped at a light next to an ES series Lexus, I shout out "Nice f'ing CAMRY"!!!!! :rotflmao:


My point exactly. They are marketed toward different people and at different price points. That is what G.M. needs to do. Or find a way to make them look more different. Honda sold the CRX and del Sol on the Civic platform yet these cars did not share one body panel. And they looked very different from the Civics they were based off. The Monte was kinda different from the Impy . But why kill the 2-door GP? Was it stealing Monte sales? Did it look to similar? The GP is a longer running name why drop the 2-door for the Monte?