Automotive News, Media & Press - Cars like chevy volt going to save are performance cars.

I just wanted to see what you guys think about this chevy volt. I drive about 40 miles a day back and forth to work and barly go more than 60 anytime other than vacation. If everyone buaght a chevy volt and also had a v8 gas guzler the avg mpg would be over the cappa.

I plan on buy two volts and plugin mine in at work so my elictric bill at home dont go up either other than the wifes car being pluged in at home.
On avg i drive everyday maybe 60miles a day in a car that gets 25mpg, about 21500 mile a year (850 gals of gas) almost 3k in gas a year with prices of gas at 3.50 a gal. and this is just one of my cars

If i buy this car it would pay its self off within a few years and save me money in the long run. more money for my trans am.:D

whats everyone else think of this. will these kind of cars save are performance cars.

I think it's a good idea, but :

How much will they cost?
How will heavy traffic affect battery life?
What is the expected charge time?

they say its suppost to go 40 mile on electric then the turbo engine is suppost to recharge the battery the motor is suppost to get 50mpg.
charging time is alittle over 6 hours. over night or at work.

heavy traffic and pricing is what i would like to know to.
is it going to take away from the mile on electic if you are setting in traffic or not?

And i'm thinking if the price is even 30k i'll buy one. you are still saving and you will probably get the gm 5 year 100k warrenty so if a battery goes out before then you can replace it.

I think i'll buy one even if the price is high. just a way i can help gm out and to keep selling performance cars and also help myself out with not paying for damn gas.

I'll still drive the ta about 2-4k a year like i always do but i'll save alot of money with a volt compared to the grand prix i have now.

I wouldn't mind driving one of those, they look pretty cool. GM needs to hurry up and get it on the showroom floor before anyone eles does. If they get the first electric car out there, sales will be huge.

While electric cars are intriquing on the surface. What happens when the batteries need replacing? The enviromental impact of producing and disposing of the batteries that are strong enough and take a "fast" charge is probably worse than the emissions of a gasoline powered car. Heavy metal batteries are hazardous waste and that can't be good for the enviroment. I am not convinced that electric cars are the answer to fossil fuel cars. E85 and hydrogen are steps toward the right direction, all though right now hydrogen is produced by production facilities that use fossil fuels. The technology needs to be pursued but right now the answer doesn't exist they are just tie overs and ways for enviromentalists to say they are helping the enviroment because the downsides are rarely discussed. JMO.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pd-RhoTogHA

They can be recycled just like any other battery, you are aware of that right?

They break them down and separate the metal and plastic, then melt them down and separate the different components. Then they send them off to be made into fresh batteries.

Don't go all Cpt. Planet unless you state all the facts.

While electric cars are intriquing on the surface. What happens when the batteries need replacing? The enviromental impact of producing and disposing of the batteries that are strong enough and take a "fast" charge is probably worse than the emissions of a gasoline powered car. Heavy metal batteries are hazardous waste and that can't be good for the enviroment. I am not convinced that electric cars are the answer to fossil fuel cars. E85 and hydrogen are steps toward the right direction, all though right now hydrogen is produced by production facilities that use fossil fuels. The technology needs to be pursued but right now the answer doesn't exist they are just tie overs and ways for enviromentalists to say they are helping the enviroment because the downsides are rarely discussed. JMO.

Yes but you are forgetting how long the service life of the car is.

It is the same arguement as turning the engine off at a light doesn't save you fuel.

I argee that they ARE NOT a perfect product. But in time they could be a lot better. They aren't unfeasible. Further, I don't think an entire scientific community would persue something that is obviously flawed.

The new wave is calling for more efficient power plants and we can't generate power as well as the newest power plants can. The days of 30% efficiency will end. New gas and combined cycle coal plants are 60% easy. Even more is possible with further heat extension using multiple turbines. Yes, the biggest issue with full electric cars is storage. That is why the Volt is a good idea until there is a better battery tech. The Volt's engine is highly optimized for running in a narrow RPM range making it more efficient. In time, it will be proved or disproved. Just don't burn the bridge, yet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pd-RhoTogHA

They can be recycled just like any other battery, you are aware of that right?

They break them down and separate the metal and plastic, then melt them down and separate the different components. Then they send them off to be made into fresh batteries.

Don't go all Cpt. Planet unless you state all the facts.

Yes I am very aware they can be recycled and that should be done. The batteries in these cars are not as easily recycled as a lead acid battery. These are heavy metals that are nearly or are radioactive. Its not as easy to recycle them and there are still very big enviromental impacts in their production and recycling. I didn't make my post to bash the technology or be a green guy. I stated pretty clearly that fossil fuel will not be replaced by these cars in the foreseeable future. That would make me anti Cpt. Planet according to most. I just find it funny that all the green people think these cars are the answer when they are not...Yet.


Yes but you are forgetting how long the service life of the car is.

It is the same arguement as turning the engine off at a light doesn't save you fuel.

I argee that they ARE NOT a perfect product. But in time they could be a lot better. They aren't unfeasible. Further, I don't think an entire scientific community would persue something that is obviously flawed.

The new wave is calling for more efficient power plants and we can't generate power as well as the newest power plants can. The days of 30% efficiency will end. New gas and combined cycle coal plants are 60% easy. Even more is possible with further heat extension using multiple turbines. Yes, the biggest issue with full electric cars is storage. That is why the Volt is a good idea until there is a better battery tech. The Volt's engine is highly optimized for running in a narrow RPM range making it more efficient. In time, it will be proved or disproved. Just don't burn the bridge, yet.

That is pretty much what I am saying I just didn't go into full rant mode. I agree that something needs to be done. I agree that fossil fuels are a limited resource and a VIABLE solution needs to be found and they are working towards it. I have read and seen some amazing technology being studied. I am merely stating that as it stands right now. These cars are not the answer. The batteries they use are more harmful than the burning of fossil fuels. They merely reduce the use of fuels. The answer will have to eliminate the use of them IMO. How is that done I don't think that can be answered right now but the answer also has to produce a vehicle that performs better or at least as well as a gas burner. The power plants are making HUGE advancments in cleanliness and efficiency. No doubt. Science is working toward the answer but the green freaks do not understand the real answer takes time and right now they are ramming these things down peoples throats and are not talking about the down side to it. Thats all I meant by my post.

If they can keep it looking somewhat like the concept I could see myself driving one of those since it would be the coolest looking econo-car that I have seen imo. I just wonder how much my electric bill would increase if I had to charge that thing constantly... not sure if it would be worth it and gas isn't exactly killing my bank account.

I do not care if they cannot be recycled. I care if we are not paying ppl that hate us to fill our cars up.

W

I hope so, shoot hopefully it'd save the economy...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/04/23/gas.prices/index.html

While electric cars are intriquing on the surface. What happens when the batteries need replacing? The enviromental impact of producing and disposing of the batteries that are strong enough and take a "fast" charge is probably worse than the emissions of a gasoline powered car. Heavy metal batteries are hazardous waste and that can't be good for the enviroment. I am not convinced that electric cars are the answer to fossil fuel cars. E85 and hydrogen are steps toward the right direction, all though right now hydrogen is produced by production facilities that use fossil fuels. The technology needs to be pursued but right now the answer doesn't exist they are just tie overs and ways for enviromentalists to say they are helping the enviroment because the downsides are rarely discussed. JMO.

From what i've read even with it's faults it's still better than the impact gas engine's are having on the environment. We need options anyway, just look at gas price's, do you want those CEO's to have us by the balls the rest of your life? Until they can replace the combustion engine, we need all the different options we can get before the economy really collapses due to gas price's, which effects everything including the price of food.

Another thing is thee vehicles can produce a tremendous amount of instant torque :)

W

If they can keep it looking somewhat like the concept I could see myself driving one of those since it would be the coolest looking econo-car that I have seen imo. I just wonder how much my electric bill would increase if I had to charge that thing constantly... not sure if it would be worth it and gas isn't exactly killing my bank account.

It wouldn't cost as much as gasoline. Considering that the range isn't an issue. And you remember to charge off peak. And you can afford the car. It least it isn't foreign oil. BUT YES it does have issues. The power grid could support 70% of commuters if they changed over tomorrow and charged off peak. On peak is a different story.

Plus with your utility bill they can't turn off the service quickly because you need it to survive. You have to not pay for awhile. For me, I would rather pay my bills at the end of the month and not worry about it till later. Plus, going to the gas station is extra time out of my life.

I love my ICE and I love being able to drive 1200 miles continuously without having a long recharge. It would be nice if we could do something. I have seen people drive electric like golf carts around some retirement areas in the summer. If only we could have a system that would allow golf cart like vehicles in the metro areas only or something.

I hope so, shoot hopefully it'd save the economy...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/04/23/gas.prices/index.html
I was going to say something about that. Did you read the one about the people going from Apache Junction to Mexico to save on fuel??

I was like what the heck!?! That's a 300 mile round trip!


That is pretty much what I am saying I just didn't go into full rant mode. I agree that something needs to be done.

I am not as against your position as you would like to think. Without someone to debate with you are just a crazy guy talking to yourself, aren't you? JK. Anyways...

The problem is -
What happens when everybody in your town plugs the car in at night + everything else electrical powered??? Blackout anyone? You take the money you saved from pumping gas and give it to the electrical companies....Sucks I know....

Awesome. Let's not evaluate the long-term impact, such as how these unique batteries are going to be disposed of...let's just go ahead and make the things.

Are ppl aware that the middle east is not in the top four providers of crude oil to the US? The top four are Canada, USA, Mexico, and Venezuela. Inasmuch as Chavez hates us, I suppose the notion of buying oil from those who hate us is correct. Thing is, Chavez desperately needs the business to prop up his regime. Quick and easy solution to that would be to drill for more oil (which we have found in massive abundance but are forbidden to go after) in and around the USA.


Nobody is considering the extra load on the already heavily loaded power grid that would be caused by electric cars. I agree that a power plant would be cleaner and more efficient than gas powered cars (I'm all for nuclear power plants) but a large number of electric cars in big cities is going to require a massive revamping of the power grid. A meek argument could be made on the lower usage at night allowing cars to be charged...but what about during the hot workday? Ready for rolling blackouts?

From what i've read even with it's faults it's still better than the impact gas engine's are having on the environment. We need options anyway, just look at gas price's, do you want those CEO's to have us by the balls the rest of your life? Until they can replace the combustion engine, we need all the different options we can get before the economy really collapses due to gas price's, which effects everything including the price of food.

You assume that it's pure profit going to greedy buisnessmen. You therefore think that changing what we buy will change that? You're still buying stuff from buisnesses. Electricity is cheap now because it doesn't drive all of our vehicles - if demand were to switch wholesale you would see price spikes that are very similar.

Supposedly something like 43% of the cost of a gallon of gas at the pump is taxes. If you're such an eco-mentalist, then you must be a democrap, talk to the jackass party controlling congress and thell them to drop that taxation. They are actually rumored to be considering an ADDITIONAL $0.50 per gallon tax increase to "encourage" us to drive less. Sure, we'll just stop going to work, brilliat. Jackasses. :bang:

That tax will follow anything we use for "fuel", and that includes electricity if gasoline falls out of favor.

And "impact" on the environment? lol Yeah, and I'm the pope. Electricity comes from coal. It could be cleaner and come from nuclear (and cheaper as a result), but the jackass party (liberals) won't allow it. So all that's happening is a centralization of the burning. Not to mention that modern cars with computer controlled fuel injection and timing (and even intake events in limited fashion) are EXTREMELY clean burning. Want to go cleaner? Use HCCI or just cut right to the chase and use diesel, the compression and efficiencies diesel offers are just staggering. Plus they can burn a lot more fuel types. Or we could use alcohol - yeast is being developed that can use switch grass, and presumably any plant life, not just corn. That means your lawn clippings could be used, so we aren't impacting farmland as heavily, and gaining a lot more raw material at the same time.


Electrics (and hybrids) are for pussies and idiots. [the Prius get 45mpg on a real world driving test, a VW Lupo Diesel, with the same driver, on the same course under the same conditions, driven the same way got 70mpg. Wanna "save the planet"? Get a diesel]

I wouldn't mind driving one of those, they look pretty cool. GM needs to hurry up and get it on the showroom floor before anyone eles does. If they get the first electric car out there, sales will be huge.

AGREED!

IF they do, it could possibly lure most of the 'greenies' and lichen kissers out of their 'duhs & TOYZ, thus also improving OUR economy/trade deficit as well.
They would have NO MORE excuses for ONLY supporting Japan's economy! :usa:

Are ppl aware that the middle east is not in the top four providers of crude oil to the US?

No, they are not. And the demoncrats do their damndest to keep it that way too.

The problem is -
What happens when everybody in your town plugs the car in at night + everything else electrical powered??? Blackout anyone? You take the money you saved from pumping gas and give it to the electrical companies....Sucks I know....

I don't think it'll cost that much, aspecially with the price of gas as well as oil increasing so rapidly with no end in site. If you really wanna save, get solar panels installed on your roof...that would be a perfect mix, lol, aspecially on those hot days that people are always using their a/c on.

There's a lot of things people can do to save money, keep the money in the U.S and not given to foreign oil ceo's that will sponsor terrorists with it, and it would boost the economy, the electric cars would practically pay for itself and with more money in your pocket you can get recreational vehicle's like dirt bike's or snow mobile's on top of your muscle car hobby.

AGREED!

IF they do, it could possibly lure most of the 'greenies' and lichen kissers out of their 'duhs & TOYZ, thus also improving OUR economy/trade deficit as well.
They would have NO MORE excuses for ONLY supporting Japan's economy! :usa:

Unfortunately, they would, they would just rely on the hackneyed BS about build quality and claims of their japanese cars being "more american" than domestics. They are not keen on facing reality, they will find a way to bend facts and truths to their will. They always do.

bla bla bla then you must be a democrap, bla bla bla jackass party bla bla bla brilliat. Jackasses. :bang: blablabla , and I'm the pope. bla bla bla but the jackass party (liberals) bla bla bla bla bla la Electrics (and hybrids) are for pussies and idiots. bla bla bla





...rednecks :eyes:

...rednecks :eyes:

lol! I called that one. That's all you guys can ever respond with. Speaks volumes about you. :thumb:

lol! I called that one. That's all you guys can ever respond with. Speaks volumes about you. :thumb:

Bush and his party eliminated the middle class within 7 years...that speaks volumes...

Bush and his party eliminated the middle class within 7 years...that speaks volumes...

:jest:

And the hits just keep on comin'. You people truly amaze me. (and scare me because you actually vote, we should require a psych and general knowledge test before allowing people to vote)

Ya knowm the funniest thing is, I don't feel "eliminated". Guess that just goes with existing. :jest:

Gas guzzlers are a big hit in China
Newly affluent want larger SUVs to fill with state-regulated $2.90 gas

Gas costs 5.34 yuan (76 cents) a liter or 20.5 yuan ($2.90) a gallon. State oil companies are barred from passing on rising crude costs to consumers, instead covering their losses out of profits from their drilling units.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24242758/

:jest:

And the hits just keep on comin'. You people truly amaze me. (and scare me because you actually vote, we should require a psych and general knowledge test before allowing people to vote)

Ya knowm the funniest thing is, I don't feel "eliminated". Guess that just goes with existing. :jest:
I am not even going to touch that one.

:jest:

And the hits just keep on comin'. You people truly amaze me. (and scare me because you actually vote, we should require a psych and general knowledge test before allowing people to vote)

Ya knowm the funniest thing is, I don't feel "eliminated". Guess that just goes with existing. :jest:

Yeah I can tell, you sound like you have it great and could care less. How are you liking todays gas price's? How do you purpose we resolve it, if we even should in your opinion?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24242758/

Yeap, they are going to surpass us soon as the biggest gas guzzler's, lol. More and more people who had bike's want cars now. Gas price's are not going down and the price of oil they say being 200+ a barrel isn't out of the question.

Yeah I can tell, you sound like you have it great and could care less. How are you liking todays gas price's? How do you purpose we resolve it, if we even should in your opinion?

Sorry, you mean "couldn't care less". ;)

The gas prices suck. That's why congress needs to eliminate the taxes on it. But we know that won't happen because it's controlled by dems and dems LOVE taxes, so they can enforce their anti-American socialist programs and force us to support the lazy (nevermind that it's NOT a gov'ts responsibility to do so).

Outside of that - diesel, HCCI+AFM, cam-less valve-trains, less safety regulation (to combat weight creep), alcohol, and other biofuels. This notion of ONE fuel is ludacris, and it's why we are in the situation we are in. Increase efficiencies via tech (HCCI+AFM and lower weight), while at the same time splitting up demand into at a MINUMUM, gasoline+diesel+alcohol. Just picture gasoline having 1/3rd the demand it currently does. And the fuel options could be split up even more so too.

Alternately, we COULD actually go and steal the oil, like you lunatic barking moonbats so desperately want to beleive that we do. Put guns in thier faces and tell them we want it for $25 a barrell (being generous).

But along with that, something needs to be done with the comodities market as well. Speculators have done a lot of damage to the price of oil ever since the dot com crash (which happened under bubba, btw). IIRC, with certain comodities you have to actually be able to house and store what you buy, but not so with oil. Speculators should have to house and store their crude for a period of time, and be forced to have proper facilities with which to do so. It might not cure that problem, but should make a pretty serious dent.

Let the dems tack on their 50¢ per gallon tax and really watch everything go into the shitter - well except for the lazy fucks living off of the gov'ts theft of OUR money for socialist programs it has no right to create or operate.

Sorry, you mean "couldn't care less". ;)

The gas prices suck. That's why congress needs to eliminate the taxes on it.

Wow, ok, I'm done here.

edit:



Alternately, we COULD actually go and steal the oil, like you lunatic barking moonbats so desperately want to beleive that we do. Put guns in thier faces and tell them we want it for $25 a barrell (being generous).



Just wanted to quote that one bit before I go...durr, or hey, we could just keep borrowing more money from China. That goes along with your first point.

well except for the lazy fucks living off of the gov'ts theft of OUR money for socialist programs it has no right to create or operate.

The word redneck was a serious understatement...

Wow, ok, I'm done here.

Kinda figured you would be.

the volt will look nothing like the concept

Yeap, they are going to surpass us soon as the biggest gas guzzler's, lol. More and more people who had bike's want cars now. Gas price's are not going down and the price of oil they say being 200+ a barrel isn't out of the question.

I will be ordering my stage coach tomorrow. :chug:

I don't think it'll cost that much, aspecially with the price of gas as well as oil increasing so rapidly with no end in site. If you really wanna save, get solar panels installed on your roof...that would be a perfect mix, lol, aspecially on those hot days that people are always using their a/c on.

There's a lot of things people can do to save money, keep the money in the U.S and not given to foreign oil ceo's that will sponsor terrorists with it, and it would boost the economy, the electric cars would practically pay for itself and with more money in your pocket you can get recreational vehicle's like dirt bike's or snow mobile's on top of your muscle car hobby.

I was thinking the same thing about solor panels on the roof of a volt. even if its cloudy out you are still getting 80% of the uv rays and that would be plenty to recharge your batterys. durring the day while at work.
I wonder if gm has thought about this. might be another option on the car they could add. just a thought.

I was thinking the same thing about solor panels on the roof of a volt. even if its cloudy out you are still getting 80% of the uv rays and that would be plenty to recharge your batterys. durring the day while at work.
I wonder if gm has thought about this. might be another option on the car they could add. just a thought.

I think he was implying the roof of your house to supplement (or even replace) your feed from the grid/power company.
BUT, your idea is a good one as well IF it could be implemented into the car's roof for use EVEN while moving, without killing the aerodynamics.

Ok fellas set aside all the political banter, or this thread will get locked. ......

Back on topic, I do think that Solar panels on the roof are a good idea. But would a panel that size be able to charge the cells effectively enough in a given time period? I also dig the on the fly charging idea.

Could they be built to withstand the beating of being a DD?

My job provides a free charging station for electrical vehicles, but for the majority of people that will have to plug it into their own homes....

Will the energry consumed by this vehicle per mile actually cost less than the gas concumed per mile we would put into a regular vehicle? (charge time/energy costs vs. mileage)

I was thinking the same thing about solor panels on the roof of a volt. even if its cloudy out you are still getting 80% of the uv rays and that would be plenty to recharge your batterys. durring the day while at work.
I wonder if gm has thought about this. might be another option on the car they could add. just a thought.

That's a good idea as well. I think they are worried about the market right now and how much they are willing to pay for one of these, but time will tell if they are serious about producing it and getting it out. The EV I think it was called, they weren't serious about at all it seems, and destroyed them the first chance they got, ever see that movie who killed the electric car? Seems electric cars are not as profitable compared to fully loaded suv's that they can charge premium for. I think that's why their main focus at first seemed to be hybrid suv's, lol.

Will the energry consumed by this vehicle actually cost less than the gas we would put into a regular vehicle? (charge time/energy costs vs. mileage)

With the way gas price's are going with no end in site...I'd think so...

I would hope so, but remember that in some places electricity prices SKYROCKET during the summer. To the point where an electrical bill will go from 150-350 to nearly 900+. How much of a drain will this thing be placing on your homes electrical bill if it has to be charged for 8hrs. min. everyday? In some cases more.

I would hope so, but remember that in some places electricity prices SKYROCKET during the summer. To the point where an electrical bill will go from 150-350 to nearly 900+. How much of a drain will this thing be placing on your homes electrical bill if it has to be charged for 8hrs. min. everyday? In some cases more.

This is actually why I've always thought solar panels would solve everything on a house. I think I read that they are 20k, but it can eliminate most of your utility bills. Aspecially in the summer like I said when it's so hot and you run up the bill from using the a/c.

Imagine having no gas bill for your car, and most of your utility bill gone, might be a good investment.

Just to perpetuate the we are damned if we do damned if we don't paradox...

According to ANU it can take up to 4 years for a solar cell to produce the amount of energy which was needed to produce the cell in the first place.

http://solar.anu.edu.au/docs/Sliver%20cells%20060621.ppt
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37322.pdf

I hope their math is off! Either way as stated by Mani earlier any solution to our problem is going to take time and money to implement. I am sure we won't get it right at first either.

^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, sadly I've heard the same thing. :(

There are NO 'free lunches' when it comes to energy, unless someone can defy the laws of physics and create a perpetual motion machine. :lol:

The Volt as it stands right now is a vaporware car. The technology simply doesn't exist for GM to deliver on it's promrises. The cars range on electricity will vary widely depending on conditions, your driving habits and accessory usage. Cost went from under $30k, to $35k, to $48k now. The 2010 release date is now tentative and will likely be pushed back. Things really aren't coming together to make the car a reality, and if it is delivered who is going to pay twice the price of a Prius for one? I sure as Hell wouldn't, I'd get a Corvette for that kind of money.

What would save performance cars is American manufacturers culling about half of their current truck, SUV and crossover gas guzzlers from their product portfolio and people making wiser decisions about their transportation needs. Fun cars are fun and reward us with pleasure, but can the same be said for one person owning a fullsize truck or SUV that doesn't perform at all and isn't used for hauling, towing or moving lots of people?

Fun cars are fun and reward us with pleasure, but can the same be said for one person owning a fullsize truck or SUV that doesn't perform at all and isn't used for hauling, towing or moving lots of people?

OH COURSE, haven't you ever heard of lil man syndrome? It makes all the lil over-compensating men happy. In Simi Valley where i just moved to last week, It is sickening to see how many trucks there are. I left the house for work the other day and i saw literaly 3 trucks to every 1 car. No joke there was a line of at least 10-12 parked along the first street, and every side street i passed was littered with them.

I have NEVER in my life seen so many SUV's and trucks. Going to the mall, store, market, park is even worse. :eek:

On the flip side of that, I work in Santa Monica, and all i see are Prius' and Smart cars, hell even those lil golf cart looking electric cars. :jest:

in the next 10 years they are not really going to change the world, its not about comparing them to our regular cars, its about educating people, making them part of our everyday lives., so then the 4th generation of the car actually makes a difference, saturn had the elcetric cars member those went to crap to but it was not about that, it was bout putting them our there for people to see there is an alternative......gas companies have everybody by the balls right now we can cry and yap all we want but they are going to raise the prices to whatever they want whenever they want, its about scaring those cock suckers into lowering the prices.....the affects that we have over the environment are hard to change, shit a cow farting makes more emission...........

Im Guilty I Have A 2500 Hd With A Lift Kit And 35's.. Tell You The Truth I Havent So Much A Stowed 10lbs With It Yet...

Just Bought It Because It Looked Cool... Now A Year Later Diesel Is 4.15 A Gal And Life Sucks!.. Any More And Ill Be Driving The T\a To Work As A Economy Car

The Only Good Side Is Work Is 7 Miles Away

Just to perpetuate the we are damned if we do damned if we don't paradox...

According to ANU it can take up to 4 years for a solar cell to produce the amount of energy which was needed to produce the cell in the first place.

http://solar.anu.edu.au/docs/Sliver%20cells%20060621.ppt
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37322.pdf

I hope their math is off! Either way as stated by Mani earlier any solution to our problem is going to take time and money to implement. I am sure we won't get it right at first either.

^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, sadly I've heard the same thing. :(

There are NO 'free lunches' when it comes to energy, unless someone can defy the laws of physics and create a perpetual motion machine. :lol:

that's going by what's available TODAY. that doesn't include the panels that are aniticipated to reduce that number (4 years) by 1/2, and even 1/4. but even at 4 years before the panels start to pay off the amount of energy used to create them, it's still definitely worth it to do it if you can afford to.....as stated below (directly quoted from that PDF file in the second link), the panels are expected to last 30 years....that's a pretty good turnaround on clean energy production.

Energy payback estimates for both rooftop and ground-mounted PV systems are roughly the same, depending on the technology and type of framing used. Paybacks for multicrystalline modules are 4 years for systems using recent technology and 2 years for anticipated technology.
For thin-film modules, paybacks are 3 years using recent technology, and just 1 year for anticipated thin-film technology (see Figure 1). With assumed life expectancies of 30 years, and taking into account the fossil-fuel-based energy used in manufacture, 87% to 97% of the energy that PV systems generate won’t be plagued by pollution, greenhouse gases, and depletion of resources.

Based on models and real data, the idea that PV cannot pay back its energy investment is simply a myth. Indeed, researchers Dones and Frischknecht found that PV-systems fabrication and fossil-fuel energy production have similar energy payback periods (including costs for mining, transportation, refining, and construction).

when/if i ever move to a place that will allow it, i am going to seriously look into using solar panels and/or windmills to help reduce my power bill....and if i can get a good enough system set up where i'm producing more power than i use, i can tie it into the grid, and the power company has to pay ME for the power i'm producing for THEM....although, that amount decreases each year, so once it gets to the point where they're not paying me anymore, i'll cut them off......

Wow, ok, I'm done here.


edit:

lol Typical liberal - lies out his has, has no clue what he's talking about, and can only offer emotional slurs such as "redneck" to anyone who is not a mental 5 year old.

^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, sadly I've heard the same thing. :(

There are NO 'free lunches' when it comes to energy, unless someone can defy the laws of physics and create a perpetual motion machine. :lol:

Exactly. People think these "free" electricity technologies are a panacea and it therefore must be some "evil right wing conspiracy" keeping them back. In truth, the output of a photovoltaic isn't that great, it takes a lot of resources (and money) to produce them, and their life span isn't spectacularly long either. Most people can't even use them at all (apartment dwellers, or renters who can't change their home - and those are increasing rapidly in number), and many of those who can, either don't live in a place with enough consistent sun, or don't have enough square footage to account for all the power they use. Couple that with the current (no pun intended, hehe) low prices per KW/hr and it takes FAR too long to re-coup the investment of making the transition.

The people it makes most sense for are those with the money on hand, and a desire to simply make their own juice, like Jay Leno.

didnt see an answer mentioned to a question asked earlier, but electric cars are at a huge advantage over gas powered cars in stop-and-go traffic. the motors can just shut off and turn right back on when you have to go again. that's the same reason the prius gets better city than highway mileage i believe.

i spend $550 on gas a month for the privilege of driving 10 mph up half the freeway to work every day :bang:

Bush and his party eliminated the middle class within 7 years...that speaks volumes...

Wow, that HAS to be one of the top 10 most ignorant & incorrect comments I've ever seen posted on this site.

Good job! :thumb:


Back on topic..... as I've always said, there is only ONE way to truly help this planet, and reduce human impact. Population reduction. Anything else we do will cause some sort of long term impact on the environment.

didnt see an answer mentioned to a question asked earlier, but electric cars are at a huge advantage over gas powered cars in stop-and-go traffic. the motors can just shut off and turn right back on when you have to go again. that's the same reason the prius gets better city than highway mileage i believe.

i spend $550 on gas a month for the privilege of driving 10 mph up half the freeway to work every day :bang:

True. But look at it the other way too - if your vehicle was more efficient overall, and especially in the regime, you would spend less on gas. If you change how you drive, and when (or where) you drive (IF possible, it's not always), you could save even more on gas.

In the recent Eco-Marathon, a diesel entry went 304.5 miles on 1 gallon of fuel. Now obviously, it was custom tailored to that purpose, and clearly it was running at it's optimum speed, not stop and go, however, with an efficiency of that level, you would spend virtually nothing compared to what you do now.

Right now, I have to daily drive my Dakota R/T (5.9 litre Magnum, 4 speed auto, 3.92s stock). It gets crappy mileage and I'm stuck in stop and go traffic as well. I've aired up the tires, and just bought an electric fan for it (waiting on the controller now), and soon will be tuning it, and working on the intake and exhaust, and then looking for lower diff gears (and probably larger rolling diameter wheels and tires) all in the name of better mpg. Even a small gain will pay for itself over the course of a year, so it's more worth it to me than buying a new vehicle.

But in time, the plan is to get a specific runabout, small, light, diesel powered, fully optimised for mpg, and even buying at the pump I'll still spend next to nothing as a result. (there truly is a LOT left in ICE - too much to go jumping ship)

when/if i ever move to a place that will allow it, i am going to seriously look into using solar panels ...


From what I've heard, they are about $20,000 (saw it on the Suze Ormen show, lol). It seems to depend how long you plan to live in the house whether it's worth it, but a girl I know told me there is someone with solar panels that the electric company pays HIM monthly because he generate's so much extra power with them. Idk if this is true though but I trust her (and I can't remember if she knows the person or heard it from her teacher). She's a chemist going for her master's degree, not like some kid giving out false stories but I'm just taking her word for it, dunno if it's fact.

From what I've heard, they are about $20,000 (saw it on the Suze Ormen show, lol). It seems to depend how long you plan to live in the house whether it's worth it, but a girl I know told me there is someone with solar panels that the electric company pays HIM monthly because he generate's so much extra power with them. Idk if this is true though but I trust her (and I can't remember if she knows the person or heard it from her teacher). She's a chemist going for her master's degree, not like some kid giving out false stories but I'm just taking her word for it, dunno if it's fact.

It IS true, IF he's generating more than he's consuming and is hooked up to the grid still. It depends on the state though, it's not like that in every state. But many of them will have the power company buy back the excess power from people who generate their own.

Well, it seems everything he's done has been for the upper class, what has he done for the middle class, beside's make it harder to declare bankruptcy. He was warned to act beforehand before the housing bubble crashed correct? but he didn't. He give's huge tax cuts for the rich CEO's, we are in an insane deficit, China practically owns us it seems. What has he done for the middle class?

I'd actually like to know, I've only recently gotten really into politics, so this sort of thing really interests me now, aspecially healthcare, now that I'm not in school full time I can't believe how much healthcare costs.

Start by reading the Constitution and specifically the sections where it spells out the powers of the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive branches.

You are under false impressions of what the powers of the Office of the President of The(se) United States are.

Start by reading the Constitution and specifically the sections where it spells out the powers of the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive branches.

You are under false impressions of what the powers of the Office of the President of The(se) United States are.

I deleted that post cause i didn't want this thread to get locked cause of politics. But I am curious. I like the idea of balance, tax cuts for the poor and middle class, while more tax for the rich. I don't agree with Bush's trickle down theory on the economy. I think more money for the lower to middle class is what helps businesses and make's rich people richer, the more money people have in their pockets the more they're willing to buy products, the more things move along. When the middle class to lower class are hurting, everyone feels it, even the rich CEO's of businesses because their products arn't selling.

To bring it back on topic, better fuel efficient vehicle's will leave more money in people's pockets, and may cause them to want to buy or be able to afford newer vehicle's more often.

From what I've heard, they are about $20,000 (saw it on the Suze Ormen show, lol). It seems to depend how long you plan to live in the house whether it's worth it, but a girl I know told me there is someone with solar panels that the electric company pays HIM monthly because he generate's so much extra power with them. Idk if this is true though but I trust her (and I can't remember if she knows the person or heard it from her teacher). She's a chemist going for her master's degree, not like some kid giving out false stories but I'm just taking her word for it, dunno if it's fact.

ummm. Most states the utility company installs a second meter and just reimburses you for what you produce. But, the laws are such that they never have to pay you more than you spend.

It sucks but that is how it is here.

I deleted that post cause i didn't want this thread to get locked cause of politics. But I am curious. I like the idea of balance, tax cuts for the poor and middle class, while more tax for the rich. I don't agree with Bush's trickle down theory on the economy. I think more money for the lower to middle class is what helps businesses and make's rich people richer, the more money people have in their pockets the more they're willing to buy products, the more things move along. When the middle class to lower class are hurting, everyone feels it, even the rich CEO's of businesses because their products arn't selling.

To bring it back on topic, better fuel efficient vehicle's will leave more money in people's pockets, and may cause them to want to buy or be able to afford newer vehicle's more often.

PM sent. (for the sake of not further derailing the thread)

Very interesting thing about the power co. buying power from a home owner. Wonder what the typical rates are?

Very interesting thing about the power co. buying power from a home owner. Wonder what the typical rates are?

Here is some info. Looks legit to me.

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jul2006/sb20060706_167332.htm

At this point, most states only allow customers to generate enough energy to cover their own needs. Through a process called net metering, an individual or business produces energy during the day, feeds it back into the grid, then gets credited for the amount of energy produced.




http://www.pge.com/b2b/energytransmissionstorage/wholesalegenerators/index.shtml
Wholesale Generator Interconnections

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Here are the procedures for new wholesale generators. This page was last updated April 2007.

New wholesale generators are divided into 3 interconnection procedures depending on the size of the generator and whether it will interconnect with the transmission or distribution system.

Generators over 20 megawatts (mw) interconnecting to the transmission system follow the Large Generator Interconnection Procedures (LGIP).

Generators 20 mw and under interconnecting to the transmission system follow the Small Generator Interconnection Procedures (SGIP) for Transmission.

Generators 20 mw and under interconnecting to the distribution system follow the Small Generator Interconnection Procedures (SGIP) for Distribution.



In Massachusetts and Rhode Island, the initial competitive environment has been even worse than in California. All customers who stay with their existing utility are guaranteed a "standard offer" generation price. The standard offer starts at 2.8¢/kWh, and increases over time. But the wholesale market price in New England has been about 3.5 to 4¢/kWh.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/clean_energy_policies/putting-green-customer-demand-to-work.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Another advantage to plug in hybrids. IGNORING the battery life cycle flaw.

Vehicle-to-grid can be used with such gridable vehicles as Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) or Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV). Since most vehicles are parked an average of 95 percent of the time, their batteries could be used to let electricity flow from the car to the power lines and back, with a value to the utilities of up to $4,000 each per year.[2] However, limitations of battery technology may mean that V2G will not be widely available any time soon.

The concept allows V2G vehicles to provide power to help balance loads by "valley filling" (charging at night when demand is low) and "peak shaving" (sending power back to the grid when demand is high). It can enable utilities new ways to provide regulation services (keeping voltage and frequency stable) and provide spinning reserves (meet sudden demands for power).

[After a power outage, a Florida man] plugged his Toyota Prius into the backup Uninterruptible power supply [UPS] unit in his house and soon the refrigerator was humming and the lights were back on. “It was running everything in the house except the central air-conditioning”...As long as it has fuel, the Prius can produce at least three kilowatts of continuous power, which is adequate to maintain a home’s basic functions.[3]







Back on topic..... as I've always said, there is only ONE way to truly help this planet, and reduce human impact. Population reduction. Anything else we do will cause some sort of long term impact on the environment.:hail:

So much for keeping the political bullshit on SSU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid

Another advantage to plug in hybrids. IGNORING the battery life cycle flaw.

Vehicle-to-grid can be used with such gridable vehicles as Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) or Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV). Since most vehicles are parked an average of 95 percent of the time, their batteries could be used to let electricity flow from the car to the power lines and back, with a value to the utilities of up to $4,000 each per year.[2] However, limitations of battery technology may mean that V2G will not be widely available any time soon.

The concept allows V2G vehicles to provide power to help balance loads by "valley filling" (charging at night when demand is low) and "peak shaving" (sending power back to the grid when demand is high). It can enable utilities new ways to provide regulation services (keeping voltage and frequency stable) and provide spinning reserves (meet sudden demands for power).

[After a power outage, a Florida man] plugged his Toyota Prius into the backup Uninterruptible power supply [UPS] unit in his house and soon the refrigerator was humming and the lights were back on. “It was running everything in the house except the central air-conditioning”...As long as it has fuel, the Prius can produce at least three kilowatts of continuous power, which is adequate to maintain a home’s basic functions.[3]

That sounds a little like tacking on an extra .50¢ per gallon in tax to "encourage" us all to drive less.

If you are working during the day, you can't be plugged into the house. If you are home during the day, then chances are you are going out at night. However, even ignoring that paradox, if your toy is discharging all day, then any time you go to use it, you have to burn gas, which really defeats the purpose of having a hybrid, let alone a plug in one, in the first place.

On top of all that, you are benefiting the electric company and getting nothing for it.

When you look at the efficiencies left in gasoline, and diesel, as well as the ability to grow and even recycle multiple fuels for next to nothing, it makes NO sense at all to keep pushing for these toys. (let alone turning around and claiming that that is not what's being done, at the same time)

The real problem has been mentioned - population, there's too damn many people. But aside from that, let's look at the traffic problem for a moment.

In Germany, you have to pay out the ass to get a license, and the training is much more stringent. As a result of that and their culture, driving is it's own activity, not the equivalent of sitting in a laz-e-boy. They don't talk on the phone while fiddling with the radio while eating while putting on makeup and steering with their knee.

That might seem irrelevant to the topic, but it's not. If you are in a high traffic non-city area, you will find that these shitheads clog roads, create traffic jams, and exacerbate stop and go situations. Rather than paying attention, driving right and passing left, they wander all over, cluster people up, slow down traffic, and waste fuel.

Then there is the whole jack-rabbit, shit at stop lights and signs. If you don't drive like an asshole, 19 people jump in front of you, then proceed to hold you up as they hit the brakes 40 million times alternating with full throttle.

Ticketing people who create traffic problems, and increasing driver training, along with increasing intial buy in cost will do a HELL of a lot to reduce fuel usage.

Then take that further - I don't know about other areas, but my area has about 100 TIMES more stop signs and stop lights than it needs. A little simple logic applied to traffic flow could rip over half of that shit out and once again, people are stopping, and idling far less, fuel usage drops considerably, and we haven't even touched the vehicles themselves yet.

With just a little more effort than that, many more traffic lights could be eliminated, and that combined with the other driver behavior changes I mentioned would do wonders. And taking it that little bit further with the increases in efficiencies in ICE (as well as alternate fuels), and you practically eliminate any usefulness for electrics.

I think I might have stumbled upon something that could replace the gas engine as the recharger for the Volt. I'm sure it could be retrofitted to the generator, and all it needs is a simple nudge to get going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCANbMBujjQ

As far as increasing efficiency in the road network, that most certainly would help. I currently work for a civil engineering firm that does just that. We design the intersections for peak traffic conditions, rush hour and weekend middays are our most frequent conditions. I don't entirely agree with your suggestion, but I do see the usefulness. Our main goal is to keep cars stopped for a minimum amount of time during peak conditions, while maintaining or improving the safety of the intersection. Usually, traffic lights are a much better solution than either an uncontrolled intersection (no sign or signal) or just sign controlled. Most new intersections detect cars and adjust the timing accordingly, and efficiency is greatly improved over signs and permanently timed lights. Getting rid of lights is rarely an option as volume almost always increases over time. What usually are options, however, are to add detectors to old lights, adjust timing, or even change the lights to blinking yellow/red during certain periods. However, there are some instances where volume exceeds capacity. Plain and simple, those situations suck. Take for example the Schuylkill Expressway (I-76) in Philadelphia. That road is a god-forsaken hell-hole that is always backed up somewhere. There are several choke-points where the traffic flow goes from 4, 5, or 6 lanes down to 2. Add to those choke points short or nonexistent acceleration lanes for most on-ramps, and you have a 24/7 traffic jam in those areas. What's worse is that improving it is near impossible. You have a river on one side and mountains on the other.

Improving the road network would greatly improve vehicle efficiency, and it should be right next to increasing fuel efficiency on the list of improvements. Having a 35mpg highway car isn't going to mean a thing if the highway is always congested.

Depends on the situation. There are places where signs and/or lights of any kind simply don't belong. 2 quick examples, there is one intersection near me that is 4 roads - 1 main road, and 3 that dump into it at separate points, but all right there. Always a bad traffic area in the afternoons. Originally, the main road had no stop signs going N, and only 1 coming S. The other 3 all had them. Well they recently added 2 more signs, one going N, and a second one going S for no apparent reason. The result of this was to completely and totally fuck up the traffic situation. It has now become an absolute nightmare. Add to that a new traffic light just up the road, S-bound on that main road and jams are getting even longer now. (that light itself is a T intersection and the connecting road doesn't need anything more than a stop sign, now that the light is there, it's ANOTHER traffic choke point)

Another example is a + intersection, also near here. For decads it was a 4 way stop. Quick, simple, and efficient. Recently a traffic light was put up. Now the traffic is backed up every day, nearly all day long due to the people trying to turn. Before, it was quick and efficient, now it sucks balls.

Another example, going back to my first one -that main road I mentioned is long and winding, it starts going down a hill, and near the bottom there is a connecting road in another T. Forever, that connecting road had a stop sign. Now, the main road has one. The result? Now you can't build or maintain any speed in either direction, forcing you to throw away the advantage gravity gives you, thus wasting more fuel.

Absolutely ALL of these have created problems and done nothing good in any way. I could actually cite even more examples.

It's this shit that I was referring to when I said that half of them could be ripped out, and it's true. Take it a step further and use jug handles, round-abouts, and bridges or tunnels and you can eliminate even more signs and lights and keep people moving.

Like you said, a 35mpg Hwy car is irrelevant if it's stuck idling all the time. (which was just a more elegant way of summing up what I was thinking lol)

In Germany, you have to pay out the ass to get a license, and the training is much more stringent. As a result of that and their culture, driving is it's own activity, not the equivalent of sitting in a laz-e-boy. They don't talk on the phone while fiddling with the radio while eating while putting on makeup and steering with their knee.

That might seem irrelevant to the topic, but it's not. If you are in a high traffic non-city area, you will find that these shitheads clog roads, create traffic jams, and exacerbate stop and go situations. Rather than paying attention, driving right and passing left, they wander all over, cluster people up, slow down traffic, and waste fuel.

Then there is the whole jack-rabbit, shit at stop lights and signs. If you don't drive like an asshole, 19 people jump in front of you, then proceed to hold you up as they hit the brakes 40 million times alternating with full throttle.

Ticketing people who create traffic problems, and increasing driver training, along with increasing intial buy in cost will do a HELL of a lot to reduce fuel usage.

I have lived in Germany for nine years and my wife is German. She paid 2000 dollars in 1990 to get he license and she passed the test the first time. If you fail, several do, it costs even more. Germans do take driving very seriously and they don't, for the most part, eat, drink, talk on a cell phone or anything else while driving. Even with all of that I have sat on a freeway (autobahn) for 3 hours, hell I got out of my car and ate a sandwich and talked to several other motorists. Germany probably has the worst traffic jams in the world. It is due to population and road capacity nothing else. There are autobahns, for those that don't know there are several not just one, that are basically parking lots during peak hours. Germany is a great place to live and when you find an autobahn that is fairly empty setting the cruise control at 155MPH is a great feeling but the traffic in LA has nothing on Germany. As far as the drivers in Germany they follow the rules but that just means they use thier turn signal to cut you off. They also will cut in line and do all of the rude things that happen in the states the difference is they follow the traffic laws and do it intentionally. The one really cool thing is the stoplights go from red to yellow to green kinda like a tree at the track. Also all drivers start moving when the light turns yellow right before the green. Not like here where everyone waits until the car in front of them moves before they even attempt to take off. I miss Germany.

Depends on the situation. There are places where signs and/or lights of any kind simply don't belong. 2 quick examples, there is one intersection near me that is 4 roads - 1 main road, and 3 that dump into it at separate points, but all right there. Always a bad traffic area in the afternoons. Originally, the main road had no stop signs going N, and only 1 coming S. The other 3 all had them. Well they recently added 2 more signs, one going N, and a second one going S for no apparent reason. The result of this was to completely and totally fuck up the traffic situation. It has now become an absolute nightmare. Add to that a new traffic light just up the road, S-bound on that main road and jams are getting even longer now. (that light itself is a T intersection and the connecting road doesn't need anything more than a stop sign, now that the light is there, it's ANOTHER traffic choke point)

Another example is a + intersection, also near here. For decads it was a 4 way stop. Quick, simple, and efficient. Recently a traffic light was put up. Now the traffic is backed up every day, nearly all day long due to the people trying to turn. Before, it was quick and efficient, now it sucks balls.

Another example, going back to my first one -that main road I mentioned is long and winding, it starts going down a hill, and near the bottom there is a connecting road in another T. Forever, that connecting road had a stop sign. Now, the main road has one. The result? Now you can't build or maintain any speed in either direction, forcing you to throw away the advantage gravity gives you, thus wasting more fuel.

Absolutely ALL of these have created problems and done nothing good in any way. I could actually cite even more examples.

It's this shit that I was referring to when I said that half of them could be ripped out, and it's true. Take it a step further and use jug handles, round-abouts, and bridges or tunnels and you can eliminate even more signs and lights and keep people moving.

Like you said, a 35mpg Hwy car is irrelevant if it's stuck idling all the time. (which was just a more elegant way of summing up what I was thinking lol)
Those are beautiful examples of what not to do. The timing on that new light where the 4-way stop used to be is in all likelihood fubar'd. Lights are usually more efficient than signs, when done right. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that that particular light doesn't have any detectors. A better solution probably would have been a traffic circle. No one stops, everyone gets where they're going, and they're cheaper to implement and use since they require no electricity and landscaping is optional.

The idea is to keep the main road flowing since it has more volume, hence why it's a MAIN FUCKING ROAD. Side streets can wait. If it's a T-intersection, a stop sign usually would suffice. I would take all the examples you can find, and complain to the respective municipalities and let them know that they and/or the firm they used fucked up. It's usually an accounting problem and not an engineering problem, though, so keep that in mind. Just request a traffic study at the problem intersections.

That sounds a little like tacking on an extra .50¢ per gallon in tax to "encourage" us all to drive less.

If you are working during the day, you can't be plugged into the house. If you are home during the day, then chances are you are going out at night. However, even ignoring that paradox, if your toy is discharging all day, then any time you go to use it, you have to burn gas, which really defeats the purpose of having a hybrid, let alone a plug in one, in the first place.

On top of all that, you are benefiting the electric company and getting nothing for it.

When you look at the efficiencies left in gasoline, and diesel, as well as the ability to grow and even recycle multiple fuels for next to nothing, it makes NO sense at all to keep pushing for these toys. (let alone turning around and claiming that that is not what's being done, at the same time)

You have an extremely demented view of how that system would actually work in real life according to your response.

I mean really. Do you think people would plan these systems if they were 100% impossible?