Automotive News, Media & Press - GM Loses $3.25 Billion During First Quarter of 2008

GM posts $3.25 billion quarterly loss

Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:56pm EDT

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) on Wednesday posted better-than-expected results on strong overseas sales, despite a costly supplier strike, waning demand for its most profitable vehicles and charges related to struggling former subsidiaries.

GM, whose shares rose nearly 4 percent in pre-market trading, also took a $1.45-billion charge for its remaining investment in finance company GMAC and a $731-million charge for its exposure to the bankruptcy of auto parts supplier and former subsidiary Delphi Corp.

Weighed down by those charges, GM posted a net loss of $3.25 billion, or $5.74 per share, compared with a profit of $62 million, or 11 cents a share a year-earlier.

Revenue declined to $42.7 billion from $43.4 billion.

Excluding one-time items, GM reported a first-quarter loss of $350 million, or a 62 cents per share, a narrower loss than Wall Street had expected.

On average, analysts had expected GM to post a loss of $1.67 per share before items on revenue of $40.6 billion, according to Reuters Estimates.

GM Chief Financial Officer Ray Young said analysts may have underestimated the strength of GM's sales from emerging markets and the progress it made in cutting costs in North America.

"The headline numbers don't look that great, but when you actually peel back the numbers ... I feel the first quarter is very encouraging," Young told reporters.

Analysts had a mixed reaction to GM's results, including its negative cash flow of $3.8 billion in the quarter.

"Rationalizations abound, but we are left wondering: where is the bottom in North America?" Calyon Securities Mark Warnsman said in a note. "For a company in turnaround, cash flow is the ultimate test -- a test on which GM is failing to achieve a passing grade."

But JP Morgan analyst Himanshu Patel said the GM results were "not as bad as feared."

Some analysts noted that GM shares had been due for a bounce at the first sign of good news, due to a buildup in short positions during a 15 percent slide in the share price since the start of the year. Holders of short positions hope to buy back borrowed shares at a lower price, sometimes leading to a rebound in prices.

RECOVERY SEEN LESS 'ROBUST'

GM Chief Financial Officer Ray Young said GM was still forecasting a second-half recovery in U.S. auto sales but now believed the industry turnaround would be weaker than it had expected at the start of the year.

"We still believe there is going to be a second-half recovery, but probably not as robust as what we had thought at the beginning of the year," he said.

Lehman Brothers analyst Brian Johnson said he was encouraged by GM's "recognition" of a tougher sales climate in North America and its recent decision to cut planned truck production by 138,000 vehicles in 2008.

"These cuts will improve GM and hence industry capacity utilization, helping to improve pricing dynamics," he said.

GM earned $392 million before taxes and items on its auto operations with earnings from Europe, Latin America and Asia combining to outstrip a $611 million loss in North America.

In its home market, GM has been pressured by a two-month United Auto Workers strike against Detroit-based American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc(AXL.N: Quote, Profile, Research), a major supplier to GM.

GM said the strike had cost 100,000 units of production and depressed first-quarter results by about $800 million.

The automaker has shut down or partly idled about 30 plants because of that strike, which has mainly affected production of slower-selling large SUVs and pickup trucks.

But the strike has also allowed GM to run down inventory sharply and to resist pressure from dealers to offer stepped-up sales incentives. GM's dealer stock hit a 25-year low for April at about 840,000 vehicles at month end.

"We're trying to manage our overall level of incentive activity, period," said GM President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson.

Henderson said GM had not anticipated the spike in oil prices to $120 per barrel or the resulting rapid defection by American consumers away from more expensive trucks.

"I think we missed that. I think a lot of people did and therefore the change in market mix has happened a lot faster than we thought," Henderson said.

GM has also struggled with the legacy of its troubled former subsidiaries: Delphi and GMAC.

GMAC posted a first-quarter loss of $589 million and warned that it might not be profitable again until 2009 because of falling home prices and tight credit markets.

GM wrote down the value of its investment in GMAC after concluding that the U.S. mortgage market was unlikely to recover in the near term. GM kept a 49-percent stake in GMAC after selling the rest to private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LPCBS.UL in 2006.

GM's global vehicle sales fell nearly 1 percent to 2.25 million vehicles in the first quarter, falling far behind rival Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T: Quote, Profile, Research), which sold 2.41 million vehicles.

GM and Toyota had been roughly even in 2007 for the top spot among the world's automakers in sales volume.

(Reporting by Kevin Krolicki; Editing by Derek Caney)

http://www.reuters.com/resources/images/logo_reutersmedia.gif (http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUSN3042306820080430?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0)

Yet the stock price is up almost $2.50 a share right now, go figure. :)

ON THE TABLE #443

April 30, 2008

http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/arrowdown.gif http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/arrowdown.gif http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/arrowdown.gifGM. The car company that is well on its way to getting its product house in order and the one that's allegedly the best-positioned of all the domestic automakers to emerge from The Darkness, and the company that is thriving everywhere around the world except right here in its home country, hung a net loss of $3.25 billion on the board during the first quarter. Even though the majority of the loss was due to one-time charges relating to its share in the souring GMAC investment (just under $300 million), the American Axle strike ($800 million), and its ongoing problems with Delphi ($731 million), the results stink. Beyond the various charges, the company lost $42 million during the first quarter on total revenue of $42.7 billion. It did deliver a $1 billion dollar gain before taxes in operations around the world, but most disturbing is the fact that GM lost $812 million (before taxes) on revenue of $24.5 billion in its North American vehicle operations. GM can spin this all they want, but it's a heaping, steaming giant bowl of Not Good.

http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/arrowdown.gif http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/arrowdown.gif http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/arrowdown.gifGM. Publisher's Note: This company continues to dance around the fact that its North American vehicle operations are simply out of touch with the reality of what's going on in this market. With too many models, too many divisions and too many dealers, GM will continue to lose money hand over fist in North America, and it's simply unacceptable at this point. Where is the leadership? Where is the vision? Where is the outrage? When is somebody down at the RenCen going to stand up and say "This ain't working!" What the hell is the so-called board of directors doing and why do they continue to rubber stamp what's going on in GM's North American operations, quarter after quarter after quarter? It's one thing to keep re-aligning GM's divisions here in an attempt to streamline the operating structure because that all sounds good on paper, but unless and until they start cutting divisions, cutting the model overlaps among the divisions and cutting their dealers dramatically, this company will continue to do piss-poorly in the U.S. market. GM resolutely believes that things are going to get better in North America, and that's fine, a little optimism never hurt anyone. But this is ridiculous. Nothing fundamentally has changed that will eventually improve this situation. And I mean n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Dealers are still clamoring for more products so that they can do what, sell against other GM divisions in their local markets? Frickin' brilliant. All the great products in the world aren't going to matter one bit if GM can't do what needs to be done in their home market. At this point what's going on in the North American market lands squarely in the lap of Rick Wagoner. Fix it, Rick, because this situation is getting flat-out embarrassing. If not, then a regime change will be in the offing long before you're ready to retire. - PMD

http://www.autoextremist.com/storage/header.jpg (http://www.autoextremist.com/on-the-table1/)

It is pretty bad when people don't support their country's automakers. And yeah in the past they didn't build such great cars, but hopefully now that GM is trying to right itself others can take notice of this as well.
-Joel

General Motors Death Watch 175: Phone Calls From the Dead

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/04/radi.jpg

By Robert Farago
April 30, 2008
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/

Dean Radin believes some people are psychic. No surprise there; investigating psychic phenomena is what Radin does for a living. And yet, when author Mary Roach asked the electrical engineer if there's a middle ground between believing that the dead contact the living through electromechanical devices and viewing the whole thing a hoax, Radin said "The middle ground between genuinely true and outright faking is unconscious delusion." Welcome to GM's world.

I have no doubt that GM CEO Rick Wagoner and his acolytes will face this quarter's $3.25b loss with equanimity. Why not? During the last four years, they've glibly provided every imaginable excuse for GM's inability to book a profit; from "restructuring" costs, to labor buyouts, to the housing crisis and gas prices and beyond. The "turnaround is on course" is burned into their collective unconscious. They murmur reassuring words– to themselves and the outside world– and get back to the business of losing money.

In reality, there was a time when GM had the financial clout to make a $3.25b quarterly loss look like a right cross to a WWE wrestler's chin. But whether or not Wagoner et al admit it, the automaker's $23.9b supply of cash, marketable securities and other available funds– and that's worldwide folks, not North America– simply isn't enough to see the automaker through the current crisis, or the crisis to come.

The key point: GM needs to be analyzed for its cash flow, not earnings. This quarter, GM’s direct operating cash flow was negative $3.9b including special items. Total cash flow after non-operating items: negative $3.4b. Speaking to financial analysts, COO Fritz Henderson' tried to compare GM's current cash levels vs. last year's first financial quarter. But that’s irrelevant. All that matters is cash generated vs. cash spent over the last three months. And that’s decidedly negative.

In fact, GM was only saved from a total C11 meltdown in recent years by asset sales (well north of $10b, maybe as much as $20b). There's no escaping it: GM's business is going up in flames. You can feel the burn at the sharp end.

Henderson said GM NA's dealer inventory in April is around 840k units, the lowest level since 1983. But Fritz also said dealer stocks of full-size pickup trucks– GM's former cash cow– are still "higher than we'd like." Uh, GM has stopped making pickups (thanks to a strike by American Axle workers). And Toyota is about to pile discounts of the hood of its superabundance of Tundras. And Ford is about to launch the new F-150.

But it ain't just lost pickup profits plaguing GM. SUV sales have also cratered. In March, GM's truck and SUV sales (combined) dropped 22 percent. Worse still: falling SUV/pickup residuals trap existing GM owners in their current rigs. They can't be turned into repeat buyers to soak-up truck production– should it ever restart in any meaningful fashion.

Meanwhile, GM has no credible small cars to take up the slack. In a market where B-Class cars are flying off the lot, GM's products come complete with rebates. The automaker has no known programs to develop profitable vehicles in this segment except the Volt– which is (sticking with reality) a non-starter. For traditional domestic car buyers, a resurgent Ford looks set to steal whatever's left of GM's lunch.

In the financial realm, there's blood all over the carpet. Thanks to bad loans, bad management and a bad economy, GM's former financial powerhouse– car and mortgage lender GMAC– is heading for disaster. In terms of that beleaguered cash pile, GM has announced that it will advance up to $650m to its bankrupt former division Delphi in 2008. At the same time, GM's credit ratings are falling. Will the company lose access to its existing credit facilities?

As always, Wagoner and GM's camp followers cling to whatever good news they can pull from the wreckage. Today's Bloomberg headline on GM's Q1 loss sets the standard for self-denial: "GM Has Smaller Loss Than Estimated on Overseas Sales." In other words, overseas markets will keep GM afloat. Only, as discussed here many times and explained above, it won't. As TTAC commentator lprocter1982 points out, "GM's international profits, combined, don't equal even a third of their total loss."

To use the vernacular, stick a fork in GM. It's done. It's all over bar the lawsuits, recriminations, government bail-outs and unfurled golden parachutes. In fact, if GM's management accepted the full reality of the company's situation, they'd file for Chapter 11 now, while the automaker still has enough cash to reinvent itself, before Chapter 7 dissolution.

Of course, that would mean the end of Rick Wagoner's administration, his $14.4m annual compensation package and the sharp exit of his fantastically well-paid people (e.g. Car Czar Bob Lutz). Could the GM Empire finally be destroyed by unbridled personal greed? In truth, it's a done deal.

It is pretty bad when people don't support their country's automakers.:werd:to that. :nono:

Of course the general population DOES support their own in Japan (and Germany, and Italy, and Sweden etc.) but when an honest/loyal American tries it they get called a racist. :eyes:

Im no business expert, but if a company loses money of this magnitude at a constant rate, I dont think it can stay in business for much longer. People need to start supporting our American companies.

Im no business expert, but if a company loses money of this magnitude at a constant rate, I dont think it can stay in business for much longer. People need to start supporting our American companies.Nah, no need to support it at all. If GM (or Ford) goes under it won't affect anyone who isn't directly employed by them, right?
And those that ARE employed by GM can just go work for Toyota or Honda instead after they close their doors correct?

Oh wait, those company's are the epitome of production efficiency and robotic technology so sorry GM/Ford employees, looks like Japan MAY NOT be putting food on your tables (as so many of the Economics Professors on this board claim will happen) afterall. :nono:

If GM goes under, EVERYONE pays.

Nah, no need to support it at all. If GM (or Ford) goes under it won't affect anyone who isn't directly employed by them, right?
And those that ARE employed by GM can just go work for Toyota or Honda instead after they close their doors correct?

Oh wait, those company's are the epitome of production efficiency and robotic technology so sorry GM/Ford employees, looks like Japan MAY NOT be putting food on your tables (as so many of the Economics Professors on this board claim will happen) afterall. :nono:

If GM goes under, EVERYONE pays.

Exactly.

But some people, including those here, seem to LOVE this sort of bad news and seek it out as much as possible to plaster it here in our faces. :bang:

People need to start supporting our American companies.

I'll start supporting GM by buying one of their new cars when they start building cars that will last and perform fuel-efficiency-wise like the Hondas and other makes out there. Until they do, I just can't afford the maintenance and fuel costs.

It's not a matter of me saying, "Oh hey, maybe I'll buy a Honda today because screw these American companies", it's me saying, "Why the hell am I going to make the second biggest purchase of my life based strictly on where the item was built even though I can get a better value, quality, and performance by buying a different option?"

Sorry, but I don't have the $20,000-30,000 just sitting around to make stupid decisions like that which will screw me 100,000 miles down the road instead of 250,000. This isn't a $20 purchase we're talking about here.

Exactly.

But some people, including those here, seem to LOVE this sort of bad news and seek it out as much as possible to plaster it here in our faces. :bang:Not only that, they almost seem to gloat about it.
Almost makes ya wonder how these same people feel about losses/defeats in battle/war among our fine military.
"Totally separate issues" they might say? Maybe.
But if one is cheering the demise of the legendary, historical American icon that is General Motors then who's to say they're not also gloating, applauding the same among our servicemen as well. That's bordering on what is known as treason by the way. :nono:
I love ALL that is American, :usa: I don't pick and choose.

I'll start supporting GM by buying one of their new cars when they start building cars that will last and perform fuel-efficiency-wise like the Hondas and other makes out there.They do.
And have been for quite a few years now.
Malibu, Cobalt, G6, Solstice/Sky, Corvette, CTS, Silverado/Sierra, entire Saturn line, Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Escalade, STS, Park Avenue etc. etc.

Problem is, people are SO QUICK to remember and recall GM's (or Ford's, or Chrysler's) dark times but they so conveniently forget and dismiss that period when Japan (Toyota (remember the Toyopet? :lol:), Datsun, all of them) was building those rusting, oil burning, pieces of crap back in the day.
Why is that?

They do.
And have been for quite a few years now.
Malibu, Cobalt, G6, Solstice/Sky, Corvette, CTS, Silverado/Sierra, entire Saturn line, Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Escalade, STS, Park Avenue etc. etc.

Problem is, people are SO QUICK to remember and recall GM's (or Ford's, or Chrysler's) dark times but they so conveniently forget and dismiss that period when Japan (Toyota (remember the Toyopet? :lol:), Datsun, all of them) was building those rusting, oil burning, pieces of crap back in the day.
Why is that?

Half of those cars you mention haven't been around long enough to tell whether or not they will hold up to the same kind of mileage with the same maintenance as the Civics and Camrys, etc.

How many Cobalt or Malibu or Solstice or STS or Corvette owners do you know that have 250,000 miles on the car and haven't replaced the engine? Or even have that kind of mileage WITH an engine swap for that matter?.

And SUVs don't really count since my argument was good gas mileage (and with gas prices how they are, you're out of your friggin mind if you think I would even consider buying an SUV or truck, nevermind the fact that I never would have in the first place because of the horrible gas mileage).

If you have to buy an SUV or truck, an American vehicle may or may not be the best way to go, but for a normal sized car as a daily driver, the "turnaround" that everyone talks about with these newer American cars hasn't been going on long enough to tell if they will actually hold up like the competition.

Hopefully five years down the road I'll be able to change my mind on the subject as I would LOVE it if GM and Ford could put the imports to shame in the daily driver category. I am VERY optimistic about the Ford Fusion, for one (purchased and driven a few for my company from the first year through the current and no recalls, no issues, and an all around great car from what I've seen and experienced so far).

Half of those cars you mention haven't been around long enough to tell whether or not they will hold up to the same kind of mileage with the same maintenance as the Civics and Camrys, etc.

How many Cobalt or Malibu or Solstice or STS or Corvette owners do you know that have 250,000 miles on the car and haven't replaced the engine? Or even have that kind of mileage WITH an engine swap for that matter?.

And SUVs don't really count since my argument was good gas mileage (and with gas prices how they are, you're out of your friggin mind if you think I would even consider buying an SUV or truck, nevermind the fact that I never would have in the first place because of the horrible gas mileage).

If you have to buy an SUV or truck, an American vehicle may or may not be the best way to go, but for a normal sized car as a daily driver, the "turnaround" that everyone talks about with these newer American cars hasn't been going on long enough to tell if they will actually hold up like the competition.

Hopefully five years down the road I'll be able to change my mind on the subject as I would LOVE it if GM and Ford could put the imports to shame in the daily driver category. I am VERY optimistic about the Ford Fusion, for one (purchased and driven a few for my company from the first year through the current and no recalls, no issues, and an all around great car from what I've seen and experienced so far).

I had 184,000 miles on my 1984 Trans Am. Total amount of work, outside of normal maintenance was a $15 control module that died. It got wrecked and I had to get rid of it.

I rolled over 100,000 miles in my 1971 Olds 98 Royale Convertible. (and I even ran it dry of oil once and never harmed it in any way that I could tell) I sold it to move on to other cars and regret it to this day.

I had 90,000 on my 1988 GTA before I wrecked it and got rid of it - never had ANY problems with it.

148,000 miles on my 1990 Grand Prix SE. Tires, brake caliper, 1 axle-shaft, anda battery. Was totaled when a Ford Explorer rear-ended me.

156,000 miles on my 1991 Grand Prix SE. Battery, Alternator, Belt, and tires. Sold it to buy a 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T.

R/T has 36,000+ miles on it, zero trouble.

My '02 WS6 has 11,020 miles on it. Obviously no problems at all.

Other than the R/T and WS6, every car I bought was USED, with all the potential problems that entails, and yet, I never seemed to go wrong, or have expensive CRCs, and all of them were medium to high mileage, and note that 2 of them were from the "worst" perior (the 80s), and 2 were from the tail end of that period ('90 and '91).

You drank the Kool Aid and beleive the hype.

I had 184,000 miles on my 1984 Trans Am. Total amount of work, outside of normal maintenance was a $15 control module that died. It got wrecked and I had to get rid of it.

I rolled over 100,000 miles in my 1971 Olds 98 Royale Convertible. (and I even ran it dry of oil once and never harmed it in any way that I could tell) I sold it to move on to other cars and regret it to this day.

I had 90,000 on my 1988 GTA before I wrecked it and got rid of it - never had ANY problems with it.

148,000 miles on my 1990 Grand Prix SE. Tires, brake caliper, 1 axle-shaft, anda battery. Was totaled when a Ford Explorer rear-ended me.

156,000 miles on my 1991 Grand Prix SE. Battery, Alternator, Belt, and tires. Sold it to buy a 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T.

R/T has 36,000+ miles on it, zero trouble.

My '02 WS6 has 11,020 miles on it. Obviously no problems at all.

Other than the R/T and WS6, every car I bought was USED, with all the potential problems that entails, and yet, I never seemed to go wrong, or have expensive CRCs, and all of them were medium to high mileage, and note that 2 of them were from the "worst" perior (the 80s), and 2 were from the tail end of that period ('90 and '91).

You drank the Kool Aid and beleive the hype.My experiences with the 14 or so new and used domestic nameplate vehicles (mostly GM and Ford but even one Plymouth) that I've owned over the years echo yours almost exactly, :nod: dead on reliable. :usa:

[QUOTE=TriShield;9274785]General Motors Death Watch 175: Phone Calls From the Dead

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/04/radi.jpg

By Robert Farago
April 30, 2008
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/
QUOTE]

Don't believe it. When I was at GM, it was much more grim then now. The products were less exciting and the trucks were the only thing that sparked any interest. Now there are cars that I would consider buying new. GMs full size trucks have best in class gas mileage and have more power then ever. If you want to make one fast, throw in a LS7 or slap on a turbo and buy HP tuner. The LSx motors have been more successful than anyone would have thought. Ford blew it when they went with their mod motor when they could have improved the 5.0 and 351, and the Import people don't have a clue saying that push rod motors are dinosaurs even though the OHC motors were invented at approximately the same time! All of this talk about foreign companies supplying us with more jobs than any of the big three is spin. The Foreign automakers will never employ us in great #s because their loyalty is with their people, not us.

There are some people that post on here that seem to thrive on knocking GM and it's demise in spite of GM providing more jobs to Americans then all of the import OEMs combined. My hats off to GM Powertrain and the designers that continue to bust their buts on future products. GM is a top heavy company and could use some trimming for sure, but they have the Engineering capability that is deeper than most of you know.
In the end I will continue to support the companies that provide us with our jobs and more specifically support GM on their products that have good reviews (And GM does have their fair share of products that have good reviews).

I'll start supporting GM by buying one of their new cars when they start building cars that will last and perform fuel-efficiency-wise like the Hondas and other makes out there. Until they do, I just can't afford the maintenance and fuel costs.

It's not a matter of me saying, "Oh hey, maybe I'll buy a Honda today because screw these American companies", it's me saying, "Why the hell am I going to make the second biggest purchase of my life based strictly on where the item was built even though I can get a better value, quality, and performance by buying a different option?"

Sorry, but I don't have the $20,000-30,000 just sitting around to make stupid decisions like that which will screw me 100,000 miles down the road instead of 250,000. This isn't a $20 purchase we're talking about here.

You hit the nail on the head.

It's not that people aren't supporting American companies, it's that companies like GM have been building a gigantic amount of complete crap that has alienated people from all of their brands and they will never go back.

The problem isn't consumers. It's General Motors, and the General's current leadership is completely running the company into the ground just like the Daimler-Benz did to Chrysler.

Guys, you don't need a better example of how badly run GM is than the F-bodies. The Camaro and Firebird both defined their brands and were legendary and unique cars only GM could deliver and what did they do? They let them whither without updates and canned them in order to devote resources to trucks and SUVs.

Years later Wagoner, Lutz, et all "canned" Zeta and making distinct RWD American cars for trucks once again. They devoted resources to accelerating the release of the GMT900 trucks and SUVs, products that are not selling at all.

GM abandoned all of you, abandoned making fullsize American cars (They ceded this market to Ford and later Chrysler picked up the slack with completely new and hot offerings) and didn't devote the same type of resources they did in cars like the new CTS to a compact and subcompact car which people are flocking to in droves.

To add insult to injury they gave Ford the entire muscle car market and the Mustang has flourished. GM's mishandling of it's own cars and putting gas-guzzling, terribly performing, woefully out of touch trucks first has now resulted in them playing catch-up to the Mustang and the Japanese. On both counts GM is going to be way too late to both parties.

The Camaro is taking forever to make and by the time it gets here fuel will be $4+ per gallon. Meanwhile Ford and Chrysler have the muscle and fullsize RWD American car market to themselves and the Japanese sell thousands of compact and subcompact cars to a public that wants them.

GM is going to be toast at this rate.

Guys, you don't need a better example of how badly run GM is than the F-bodies. The Camaro and Firebird both defined their brands and were legendary and unique cars only GM could deliver and what did they do? They let them whither without updates and canned them in order to devote resources to trucks and SUVs.

Years later Wagoner, Lutz, et all "canned" Zeta and making distinct RWD American cars for trucks once again. They devoted resources to accelerating the release of the GMT900 trucks and SUVs, products that are not selling at all.

GM abandoned all of you, abandoned making fullsize American cars (They ceded this market to Ford and later Chrysler picked up the slack with completely new and hot offerings) and didn't devote the same type of resources they did in cars like the new CTS to a compact and subcompact car which people are flocking to in droves.

To add insult to injury they gave Ford the entire muscle car market and the Mustang has flourished. GM's mishandling of it's own cars and putting gas-guzzling, terribly performing, woefully out of touch trucks first has now resulted in them playing catch-up to the Mustang and the Japanese. On both counts GM is going to be way too late to both parties.

The Camaro is taking forever to make and by the time it gets here fuel will be $4+ per gallon. Meanwhile Ford and Chrysler have the muscle and fullsize RWD American car market to themselves and the Japanese sell thousands of compact and subcompact cars to a public that wants them.

GM is going to be toast at this rate.

Agreed.

The day of the GAS GUZZLER is OVER

It's not that people aren't supporting American companies, it's that companies like GM have been building a gigantic amount of complete crap that has alienated people from all of their brands and they will never go back.Yet they ran back to the imports when they improved over the crap they used to send here (in case anyone is either too young or too much in denial, Japan DID used to send GIGANTIC amounts of complete crap over here), why is that? :confused:
So it's ok to have been burned by Toyota or Honda in the '60s/early '70s and go back but it's perfectly logical to NEVER go back to GM or Ford now when they too have made HUGE strides in building great vehicles?:huh:

Gotta love people with selective memories LOL.

How many Cobalt or Malibu or Solstice or STS or Corvette owners do you know that have 250,000 miles on the car and haven't replaced the engine? Or even have that kind of mileage WITH an engine swap for that matter?.


Sorry, but I've seen more imports with blown motors than anything. They arent all their made up to be, even now days.

I'm going to agree with the imports being more cracked up to everything than they are... My wife currently has an 06 Honda Civic with about 20K miles on it. I'm sorry but I'm definately not impressed whatsoever with the quality of the car. Everyone says the F-body interiors are cheap... go look at a honda lol they've got the cheapest looking junk in there. It's got a nice stereo system but other than that I'm thoroughly not impressed whatsoever with japanese cars...especially with what you have to pay for one.

You want to know what is wrong with GM today, go look at their small car offerings.

Chevy Aveo- extremely cheap korean made car, but I can go buy a kia for the same price with a better warranty 24/34mpg, not very impressive

Chevy Cobalt/rebadged Pontiac that looks like the cobalt-bland, cheap inside, Honda Civic is way more stylish, can't compare to the build quality of a Corolla, Civic, Sentra, etc.

Saturn Astra- actually a really nice, rebadged Opel. Designed in europe, good handling, looks nice, well built. Will never turn a profit since its made in Europe and the Euro is currently worth~ $1.50 dollars

Pontiac Vibe-nice car, even though its a Toyota Matrix


Toyota has 8 different small cars that get good mpg(I counted the Camry Hybrid too). GM is not competitive in the small car market.

I'm just your regular old jagoff who knew back in 2003 when we invaded Iraq, that the price of gas was bound to increase. This sign wasn't even a gamble, it was a damn sure bet that cheap gas was a thing of the past. These same idiots in the GM board room are selling more cars to the Chinese, thus increasing world demand. So why didn't GM develop some decent small cars?

I'm really want to see GM suceed. I think they have some of the best stylist and engineers in the business. Its too bad that the top management is a bunch of fucking incompetent morons.

Chevy Aveo- extremely cheap korean made car, but I can go buy a kia for the same price with a better warranty 24/34mpg, not very impressive

You don't get any "more" for you money from a Kia, but from the chevy, you at least support an American company. Given that there is no more cost to do so, this is just a BS excuse to support asian economies over our own (even if it's a Daewoo, it's still sold through GM, Kias are not).


Chevy Cobalt/rebadged Pontiac that looks like the cobalt-bland, cheap inside, Honda Civic is way more stylish, can't compare to the build quality of a Corolla, Civic, Sentra, etc.

The G5 kicks the snot out of the Cobalt (aesthetically). That's always the case when Pontiac re-works a chevy design. It's actually a nice car. And the new Cobalt SS is supposed to be a real rip-roarer for a FWD car.


Saturn Astra- actually a really nice, rebadged Opel. Designed in europe, good handling, looks nice, well built. Will never turn a profit since its made in Europe and the Euro is currently worth~ $1.50 dollars

Enough with this "rebadged" shit. :eyes: Would you prefer they spent untold millions on making totally new vehicles when they don't have to? It's not like Opels are over here anywhere else. You say you want them to succeed, but yet you persist in deriding them for making smart moves (consolodating and re-using existing platforms to increase production efficiency and lower costs).


Pontiac Vibe-nice car, even though its a Toyota Matrix

No, it's not. They are BOTH NUMMI cars, build to GM's spec, not Toyotas. So if anything, in that regard, you have it backwards.

Guys, you don't need a better example of how badly run GM is than the F-bodies. The Camaro and Firebird both defined their brands and were legendary and unique cars only GM could deliver and what did they do? They let them whither without updates and canned them in order to devote resources to trucks and SUVs.

Years later Wagoner, Lutz, et all "canned" Zeta and making distinct RWD American cars for trucks once again. They devoted resources to accelerating the release of the GMT900 trucks and SUVs, products that are not selling at all.

GM abandoned all of you, abandoned making fullsize American cars (They ceded this market to Ford and later Chrysler picked up the slack with completely new and hot offerings) and didn't devote the same type of resources they did in cars like the new CTS to a compact and subcompact car which people are flocking to in droves.

To add insult to injury they gave Ford the entire muscle car market and the Mustang has flourished. GM's mishandling of it's own cars and putting gas-guzzling, terribly performing, woefully out of touch trucks first has now resulted in them playing catch-up to the Mustang and the Japanese. On both counts GM is going to be way too late to both parties.

The Camaro is taking forever to make and by the time it gets here fuel will be $4+ per gallon. Meanwhile Ford and Chrysler have the muscle and fullsize RWD American car market to themselves and the Japanese sell thousands of compact and subcompact cars to a public that wants them.

GM is going to be toast at this rate.

I'm wondering why you continue to post? You obviously don't like GM or its vehicles from the tone of your post. One negative comment after the next. You continually state that they are going down the tubes and point out GMs lackings, rarely ever a positive note. If I had your view I would join a board that shared you enthusiasm for what ever your favorite car brand is. It's obviously not GM.

I for one have been very pleased with my LSx equipped vehicles and I'm happy to see the improvements in the mid size cars. If they improved the small cars a bit more I think it would help GM's stability going into the future.

You don't get any "more" for you money from a Kia, but from the chevy, you at least support an American company. Given that there is no more cost to do so, this is just a BS excuse to support asian economies over our own (even if it's a Daewoo, it's still sold through GM, Kias are not).

The G5 kicks the snot out of the Cobalt (aesthetically). That's always the case when Pontiac re-works a chevy design. It's actually a nice car. And the new Cobalt SS is supposed to be a real rip-roarer for a FWD car.


Enough with this "rebadged" shit. :eyes: Would you prefer they spent untold millions on making totally new vehicles when they don't have to? It's not like Opels are over here anywhere else. You say you want them to succeed, but yet you persist in deriding them for making smart moves (consolodating and re-using existing platforms to increase production efficiency and lower costs).


No, it's not. They are BOTH NUMMI cars, build to GM's spec, not Toyotas. So if anything, in that regard, you have it backwards.

The Kia does get better mpg and has a better warranty. If I were in the market for that type of car, I'd buy whatever I could get the best deal on, provided both cars drove similarly.

Both the G5 and Cobalt look like a warmed over Cavilier. If I'm going to buy something insufferly boring, I'd rather spend a little more and get a Corolla. That car actually gets the details right and feels like a high quality piece. The cobalt SS has always been like a Neon S-r-t-4, awesome motor stuck in a crappy car.

The astra is a nice car, but a bad business decision with current exchange rates. If they made it in this country, GM would actually make a pretty nice profit. 0


As far as the Vibe, you are 100%, totally wrong. It is based on the Toyota corolla platform. Uses a Toyota engine, toyota trans, toyota suspension, toyota steering wheel, toyota switchgear, toyota key, toyota key fob, toyota plastic bits on the inside, toyota brakes, etc. About the only thing GM did was change the styling.


I love GM, but they are definetly lacking in the small car market right now. Also, all these great products they make abroad should be made in this country due to the weak dollar.

You want to know what is wrong with GM today, go look at their small car offerings.

Chevy Aveo- extremely cheap korean made car, but I can go buy a kia for the same price with a better warranty 24/34mpg, not very impressive

Chevy Cobalt/rebadged Pontiac that looks like the cobalt-bland, cheap inside, Honda Civic is way more stylish, can't compare to the build quality of a Corolla, Civic, Sentra, etc.


A 5-speed Aveo LS is rated at 24/34 with msrp at $12,170. A 5-speed Rio Lx is rated at 27/32 with msrp at $12,815. Kia warranty? Looks good on paper, until you hear how they 'honor' it. Do a google search for bad kia warranty, here is some i found- http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/170946/things_to_avoid_at_all_cost_the_kia.html?cat=27
http://www.my3cents.com/search.cgi?criteria=Kia+Motors
http://www.carreview.com/cat/automobiles/minivans/kia/PRD_292498_1530crx.aspx
http://members.tripod.com/aiki_joe/i_hate_kia/index2.html

As far as a cobalt, it looks just like a civic or a corolla, bland and cheap. Thats more in the eye of the beholder, personally I think the shifter location in the honda is downright retarded. As far as mpg, the cobalt is rated just under a base civic, but gets spanked by a corolla. Build quality? My fiancee has a 04 corolla le, build quality is shit. That thing has more wind noise and rattles at 50k than my 95z28 does at 150k (with prothane motor/tranny mounts and blown shocks). They put the steering wheel on off center from the factory and would not warranty it. The paint has orange peel, from the factory, guess what, no warranty. The speakers blew out after two years, and she doesnt even turn the radio up that loud.

The Kia does get better mpg and has a better warranty. If I were in the market for that type of car, I'd buy whatever I could get the best deal on, provided both cars drove similarly.

The better deal is the one that supports American companies. It's not like the Aveo falls apart in a tenth of the time that the Kia does.


Both the G5 and Cobalt look like a warmed over Cavilier. If I'm going to buy something insufferly boring, I'd rather spend a little more and get a Corolla. That car actually gets the details right and feels like a high quality piece. The cobalt SS has always been like a Neon S-r-t-4, awesome motor stuck in a crappy car.

That's brilliant. Toyota (in their OWN plants) is the anti-quality. And there again, it's not supporting the US.


As far as the Vibe, you are 100%, totally wrong. It is based on the Toyota corolla platform. Uses a Toyota engine, toyota trans, toyota suspension, toyota steering wheel, toyota switchgear, toyota key, toyota key fob, toyota plastic bits on the inside, toyota brakes, etc. About the only thing GM did was change the styling.

No, I'm not. Of course I can't find it now, but at the 2009 Vibe launch there was a Q&A and people inside the program pointed out that 1, this car comes from the NUMMI plant and is not a "toyota", it's a true joint venture. 2, while it does use toyota hardware, the performance and designs specs WERE laid out by GM. Toyota just put a "matrix" front end on it and sold it in their dealerships as well.

I'm not a Vibe fanboi - I hate crossovers, and 4-doors, and would not buy one, but it's not a pre-exiting solo toyota design that GM swapped front ends on, like people love to think.

I'm wondering why you continue to post? You obviously don't like GM or its vehicles from the tone of your post. One negative comment after the next. You continually state that they are going down the tubes and point out GMs lackings, rarely ever a positive note. If I had your view I would join a board that shared you enthusiasm for what ever your favorite car brand is. It's obviously not GM.

I for one have been very pleased with my LSx equipped vehicles and I'm happy to see the improvements in the mid size cars. If they improved the small cars a bit more I think it would help GM's stability going into the future.

There's a big difference between not liking GM and not liking how GM is run.

I primarily love muscle cars and my favorites are from GM. But it doesn't take a genius to see that the company is a complete morass and how they've completely sunk their own ship.

As GM fans people shouldn't be blindly cheerleading every moronic thing they do to shoot themselves in the face. You should be critical of their management their product plans and if you're a shareholder demand action that actually works.

I for one have been very pleased with my LSx equipped vehicles and I'm happy to see the improvements in the mid size cars.Me too. :drive:




The better deal is the one that supports American companies.:werd:x 100

There's a big difference between not liking GM and not liking how GM is run.

I primarily love muscle cars and my favorites are from GM. But it doesn't take a genius to see that the company is a complete morass and how they've completely sunk their own ship.

As GM fans people shouldn't be blindly cheerleading every moronic thing they do to shoot themselves in the face. You should be critical of their management their product plans and if you're a shareholder demand action that actually works.

Couldn't have said it better myself

There's a big difference between not liking GM and not liking how GM is run.

As GM fans people shouldn't be blindly cheerleading every moronic thing they do to shoot themselves in the face. You should be critical of their management their product plans and if you're a shareholder demand action that actually works.

I am very critical of the management and agree they could trim the hell out of their organization, top to bottom and improve the product at the same time. I also commend them when they have a good product, which are better than 10 years ago. I have also worked for one of the Japanese OEMs and have seen the lack of capabilities their. I can honestly say that only Toyota and to a lesser extent Honda are a threat to the US manufacturers. Anyone of the others would go under at any given time if they weren't supported by their governments.
Like most OEMs, they seem to have a hard time knowing what the market wants. That’s pretty much the same across the board; identifying your core competence and then growing it. Not that easy in the automotive industry.

The Astra is a nice car, but a bad business decision with current exchange rates. If they made it in this country, GM would actually make a pretty nice profit.
I love GM, but they are definetly lacking in the small car market right now. Also, all these great products they make abroad should be made in this country due to the weak dollar.

I may not agree with you on much, but I DO agree with the above.

The question still remains; would the costs of the tooling (itself, NOT the R&D for it), along with the TOTAL costs of the plant(s) to build them here, offset/override the losses from the exchange rate deficit (which yes, sadly will probably only keep getting worse)???
This is an honest, straightforward question, NO sarcasm/facetiousness involved, put out there for intelligent discussion ONLY.

The Domestic auto industry is beaten up by the press. Every Monday each sales associate, at our dealership, is beaten up. Military School and the Milatary were my two worst experiences. The car business is #3. In the car business you can sell 100 cars and be the hero of the dealership one month. Beginning of the next month you're a stupid lazy zero again.

That's a bunch of money GM has lost. I often posted about car sales and profits being down, locally and nationally. I recently figured out you can't have any threads closed if you don't make any new threads. GM was off 16.2 for April from April 2007. Trailblazer sales off 73% in April. Costs money to bring new products to the table. Creative accounting some people make fortunes from it.:D I think that is what GM is doing!!

:secret2: Jakes Dad

I may not agree with you on much, but I DO agree with the above.

The question still remains; would the costs of the tooling (itself, NOT the R&D for it), along with the TOTAL costs of the plant(s) to build them here, offset/override the losses from the exchange rate deficit (which yes, sadly will probably only keep getting worse)???
This is an honest, straightforward question, NO sarcasm/facetiousness involved, put out there for intelligent discussion ONLY.

GM has shuttered a lot of plants, and laid a lot of people that could've been bulding astras, monaros, commodores, statesmen, and utes. Along with a whole slew of b-segment subcompacts.

I think GM really missed the boat back in 1996-97. They could've built rebodied commodoes in north america with the ls1 v8, in a modern chassis, with all the good big sedan traits like a huge trunk, lots of space, big back seat, nice aussie designed interior, and maybe some badass american style like the G8. IMO the G8 could've been made 10 years ago.

I had 184,000 miles on my 1984 Trans Am. Total amount of work, outside of normal maintenance was a $15 control module that died. It got wrecked and I had to get rid of it.

I rolled over 100,000 miles in my 1971 Olds 98 Royale Convertible. (and I even ran it dry of oil once and never harmed it in any way that I could tell) I sold it to move on to other cars and regret it to this day.

I had 90,000 on my 1988 GTA before I wrecked it and got rid of it - never had ANY problems with it.

148,000 miles on my 1990 Grand Prix SE. Tires, brake caliper, 1 axle-shaft, anda battery. Was totaled when a Ford Explorer rear-ended me.

156,000 miles on my 1991 Grand Prix SE. Battery, Alternator, Belt, and tires. Sold it to buy a 2003 Dodge Dakota R/T.

R/T has 36,000+ miles on it, zero trouble.

My '02 WS6 has 11,020 miles on it. Obviously no problems at all.

Other than the R/T and WS6, every car I bought was USED, with all the potential problems that entails, and yet, I never seemed to go wrong, or have expensive CRCs, and all of them were medium to high mileage, and note that 2 of them were from the "worst" perior (the 80s), and 2 were from the tail end of that period ('90 and '91).

You drank the Kool Aid and beleive the hype.

And if the cars you listed were Hondas and Toyotas, the numbers presented would all be in the 250,000 mile range instead of the 150,000 mile range. None of your numbers are impressive in any way.

And if the cars you listed were Hondas and Toyotas, the numbers presented would all be in the 250,000 mile range instead of the 150,000 mile range. None of your numbers are impressive in any way.

My camaro has 220k miles on it with no end in sight. its had its ass beat almost every day of its existence, and has had its fair shots of nitrous. runs like a champ. the corvette, and cts v, which are in that list of cars, obviously shares a similar powerplant. i have no doubt a corvette can go 220k without an engine swap. i would bet alot of new gm vehicles would not have that problem. i work at a chevy dealership and i see alot of what comes in for service. very rare to have major major engine problems even at 150k, unless it was abuses. just saying what i see.

And if the cars you listed were Hondas and Toyotas, the numbers presented would all be in the 250,000 mile rangeOr would they be?:huh:

Wow, that is one seriously broad and generalized statement. :confused:

The bean counters at GM leave their offices in New York and go to a warm sandy area and have a meeting. One item is discussed. How many units are going to build next year? 12 million becomes the official number

Next year comes and for the year GM builds 10.2 million units. In the accounting world thats a vehicle loss of 1.8 million units. How much could GM have made if they had sold 12 million? The value of 1.8 millions units not built X the profit for each vehicle becomes a loss.

:secret2: Jakes Dad

Or would they be?:huh:

Wow, that is one seriously broad and generalized statement. :confused:

No shit.....I found those numbers impressive enough.

:werd:to that. :nono:

Of course the general population DOES support their own in Japan (and Germany, and Italy, and Sweden etc.) but when an honest/loyal American tries it they get called a racist. :eyes:

What do you base that information on? I find it quite hard to believe that since I've lived in Europe extensively over the years and see all brands in all countries regardless.

What do you base that information on? I find it quite hard to believe that since I've lived in Europe extensively over the years and see all brands in all countries regardless.

That may be so.

But even if it is, I think his point was that the ones in those countries who DO buy from their own would NEVER be considered/labeled racist for buying from their OWN country's companies.
Unlike here, where you are instantly labeled such (and worse, like "hardcore redneck", nazi, mulletboy, etc.) by the import fanboyzz/global economy 'professores'/ricetards for only buying from domestic companies and refusing to buy from the import nameplates.

I see no reason in supporting a company that has it's base in America yet builds cars in Canada, Mexico and the Far east for import into the US. As well as most of it's compact and economy models using parts and designs from foreign companies such as Toyota! I don't understand people who say support GM...just because it's American. That would only make us blind and ignorant consumers!
I'll buy whatever product I deem is the best value for my money and needs. If I'm to buy my daughter a car it's gonna be a Volvo or similar because my daughter's life is more important than buying her a cobalt because it's a GM car. I love my current GM vehicle and past ones but GM screwed themselves into the ground in the 80's and 90's and I'm not gonna take pity on them if they make a half ass effort to right themselves now.
They have finally produced a competitive car with the new Malibu and their truck line is still top notch but the bread and butter of the car industry isn't corvette's and Camaro's it is the economy and family sedans and GM is still trying to right a sinking ship.

That may be so.

But even if it is, I think his point was that the ones in those countries who DO buy from their own would NEVER be considered/labeled racist for buying from their OWN country's companies.
Unlike here, where you are instantly labeled such by the import fanboyzz/global economy 'professores'/ricetards for only buying from domestic companies and refusing to buy from the import nameplates.

Anyone who labels any individual based on the vehicle they drive without prior knowledge of that person is an ignorant tool. Honestly if Joe-ricer comes up to me and tells me I'm a racist for driving a GM truck I'll smile at give him a :thumb: up and head on my way. People's arbitrary opinion of me based on no prior knowledge of me does not affect me. It makes them look like an idiot and that's fine by me. And to assume that there aren't ignorant moron's in Europe is ignorant in itself. I have many friends in Europe who are loyal to Renault for no obvious reason which is totally fine by me and they have problems with people who drive Peugeot's or foreign brands as well. It's the same there as it is here with Ford and Chevy. When it all comes down to it any sensible person who isn't seriously retarded will admit that most rivalries are for just friendly in nature.

When it all comes down to it any sensible person who isn't seriously retarded will admit that most rivalries are for just friendly in nature.

That's nice, we are all just good global buddies. When people who work at an American assembly plant or sub-component manufacturers are losing jobs in great numbers it's a serious problem for our economic well being and our future. Our economic future vs Globalism? In my opinion, Our future wins every time. Of course, I know it's a balancing act, but equal trade is good for relationships between countries. And likewise, Unequal trade is undesirable.

Anyone who labels any individual based on the vehicle they drive without prior knowledge of that person is an ignorant tool. Honestly if Joe-ricer comes up to me and tells me I'm a racist for driving a GM truck I'll smile at give him a :thumb: up and head on my way. People's arbitrary opinion of me based on no prior knowledge of me does not affect me. It makes them look like an idiot and that's fine by me. And to assume that there aren't ignorant moron's in Europe is ignorant in itself. I have many friends in Europe who are loyal to Renault for no obvious reason which is totally fine by me and they have problems with people who drive Peugeot's or foreign brands as well. It's the same there as it is here with Ford and Chevy. When it all comes down to it any sensible person who isn't seriously retarded will admit that most rivalries are for just friendly in nature.

Not arguing, but Ferrari and Lamborghini directly come to mind as the opposite of friendly rivalries. Then there is BMW and Mercedes, Ford and Chevy, Toyota and Nissan, Mitsubishi and Subaru, Noble and TVR...

Rivalries have always been good for the consumer. However, blind loyalty, as stated before, is ignorant. One should never count out another brand just because it is another brand. Lots of people do this, but that doesn't make it a very progressive, healthy state of mind.


And yes, I too agree that unequal trade is bullshi#.

That's nice, we are all just good global buddies. When people who work at an American assembly plant or sub-component manufacturers are losing jobs in great numbers it's a serious problem for our economic well being and our future. Our economic future vs Globalism? In my opinion, Our future wins every time. Of course, I know it's a balancing act, but equal trade is good for relationships between countries. And likewise, Unequal trade is undesirable.

Your absolutely right, It is a big problem for our economy but why is it that American auto manufacturers are losing jobs in great numbers and closing plants yet Toyota, Mercedes, Nissan, etc...all have plants in the US and they are doing well? It isn't the name brands that people are leaning towards it's the product. American profited highly from Globalism when we had the upper hand in research and technology and now that other countries can compete with our products we're all of a sudden against it? My GMC Sierra was built in Mexico in February of 2005...how is that supporting our economy? If you want to support our economy buy a Toyota truck or a Mercedes SUV or Nissan Armada or some of the smaller cars they build here in the US.
Equal trade between countries regardless of product quality sounds like the basis of NAFTA. U.S. Workers are still reeling from that.
GM has the best line of trucks in the world, and they have the ability and the resources to do the same with their cars, but until they do Toyota and others will continue to out sell them.

I see no reason in supporting a company that has it's base in America yet builds cars in Canada, Mexico and the Far east for import into the US. As well as most of it's compact and economy models using parts and designs from foreign companies such as Toyota! I don't understand people who say support GM...just because it's American. That would only make us blind and ignorant consumers!
I'll buy whatever product I deem is the best value for my money and needs. If I'm to buy my daughter a car it's gonna be a Volvo or similar because my daughter's life is more important than buying her a cobalt because it's a GM car. I love my current GM vehicle and past ones but GM screwed themselves into the ground in the 80's and 90's and I'm not gonna take pity on them if they make a half ass effort to right themselves now.
They have finally produced a competitive car with the new Malibu and their truck line is still top notch but the bread and butter of the car industry isn't corvette's and Camaro's it is the economy and family sedans and GM is still trying to right a sinking ship.

:eyes:

Do you not read these forums much, or are you just dense?

GM employs more AMERICANS than all the Japaense companies combined. Anyone who actually can sit there, with a striaght face, and say "but they build cars in Canada, so it's not supporting America afterall" is about as blind and ignorant as they come (referencing your next post).

Furthermore, to claim that buying an American car would be purely for the sake of supporting a company, and in direct opposition to getting value for dollar is verging on retardation. GM cars have NEVER been as bad as anyone has ever wanted to believe. It takes a special kind of moron to run a car into the ground, but clearly, there's a lot of them out there.

How many Volvos have rolled over at 100mph and had the driver be ok and actually post the pics on a forum? A 4th Gen (LS1) Trans Am did just that. And the car looked ok too. I've been in a bad wreck in my '84, and a buddy of mine t-boned a lexus at 60mph (when the lexus ran a red light) in his '88 GTA. These are very safe cars. Not to say Volvo isn't, but you ARE saying that GM cars aren't. You believe what the commercials, and media, tell you, and then come in here all high and mighty like you're actually more rational. (Are you a democrat by any chance?) :bang:

:eyes:

Do you not read these forums much, or are you just dense?

GM employs more AMERICANS than all the Japaense companies combined. Anyone who actually can sit there, with a striaght face, and say "but they build cars in Canada, so it's not supporting America afterall" is about as blind and ignorant as they come (referencing your next post).

Furthermore, to claim that buying an American car would be purely for the sake of supporting a company, and in direct opposition to getting value for dollar is verging on retardation. GM cars have NEVER been as bad as anyone has ever wanted to believe. It takes a special kind of moron to run a car into the ground, but clearly, there's a lot of them out there.

How many Volvos have rolled over at 100mph and had the driver be ok and actually post the pics on a forum? A 4th Gen (LS1) Trans Am did just that. And the car looked ok too. I've been in a bad wreck in my '84, and a buddy of mine t-boned a lexus at 60mph (when the lexus ran a red light) in his '88 GTA. These are very safe cars. Not to say Volvo isn't, but you ARE saying that GM cars aren't. You believe what the commercials, and media, tell you, and then come in here all high and mighty like you're actually more rational. (Are you a democrat by any chance?) :bang:

:eyes: To pretty much...everything you said.
My perspective of things is based on what I see with my own eyes, I lived 8 years in Europe and spend on average 6 months a year overseas in different countries and just recently returned from 4 months in Japan, Singapore, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq and can tell you that if I were to believe the American media, consumer targeted commercials and corporate propaganda I would be sitting here saying buy American cars because they support American jobs. I've served my country and have seen our footprint on foreign soil and understand enough to make my own educated opinions.
The whole auto industry is global, every company has plants everywhere. I've been to BMW and Mercedes dealerships in Malaysia, as well as heavy industry Japanese plants that build their product in India. It's an industry wide trend to move plants internationally because of the cost of labor. GM is only following suit.
I love GM but just because I love a company doesn't mean I'm not gonna question it's product and compare it's value to a product of equal standing.

That may be so.

But even if it is, I think his point was that the ones in those countries who DO buy from their own would NEVER be considered/labeled racist for buying from their OWN country's companies.
Unlike here, where you are instantly labeled such (and worse, like "hardcore redneck", nazi, mulletboy, etc.) by the import fanboyzz/global economy 'professores'/ricetards for only buying from domestic companies and refusing to buy from the import nameplates.

I've always thought rednecks where labeled rednecks for being racist and prejudice. So in the car world, I always thought being labelled a redneck meant your against any import car, or car that doesn't have a v8 in it, and will term anyone that owns one a ricer or fanboyzz. I don't even think it applies to just imports, neon s-r-t-4's are domestics and are hated on just the same. I don't think people will label any domestic car driver a redneck, only those that label any import car or 4 cylinder car owner a ricer (even v6's or inline 6's or turbo v6's or anything awd), it seems anyone that owns anything thats not a rwd v8 made by GM is considered a ricer or fanboy, and in turn those that have that mentality are considered rednecks. Can't be one sided and expect to be able to label anyone a ricer without getting labelled yourself.

I've always thought rednecks where labeled rednecks for being racist and prejudice. So in the car world, I always thought being labelled a redneck meant your against any import car, or car that doesn't have a v8 in it, and will term anyone that owns one a ricer or fanboyzz.

Yes, you're right. Racist and prejudiced against other human beings who are not exactly like them racially, NOT inanimate objects they happen to dislike.
So in your "car world" maybe you can say someone is a redneck if they dislike a brand because they hate the actual human beings who designed/engineered/built those import brands simply because they are racist towards the people themselves.
But NOT for any other reason (nationalism, trade, economics, whether correct or incorrect according to the said Econ 101 'professores' on here).

What exactly do you mean by "against any import car"??
Does that mean if someone simply refuses by choice to buy/own one (new OR used), they MUST BE a racist hardcore redneck according to your infinite wisdom (EVEN if they concur that there ARE fast, well built import nameplates)?? :confused:

I will never buy/own an import nameplated car.
But I have NO PROBLEM at all with buying/owning a domestic nameplated 4 cylinder car.

:eyes: To pretty much...everything you said.
My perspective of things is based on what I see with my own eyes, I lived 8 years in Europe and spend on average 6 months a year overseas in different countries and just recently returned from 4 months in Japan, Singapore, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq and can tell you that if I were to believe the American media, consumer targeted commercials and corporate propaganda I would be sitting here saying buy American cars because they support American jobs. I've served my country and have seen our footprint on foreign soil and understand enough to make my own educated opinions.
The whole auto industry is global, every company has plants everywhere. I've been to BMW and Mercedes dealerships in Malaysia, as well as heavy industry Japanese plants that build their product in India. It's an industry wide trend to move plants internationally because of the cost of labor. GM is only following suit.
I love GM but just because I love a company doesn't mean I'm not gonna question it's product and compare it's value to a product of equal standing.

I see. So you ARE dense.

The "media" shows almost nothing but praise for all import brands. The car mags, always give a leg up to the imports and start the domestics off at a severe disadvantage of predjudice. On TV, nearly everything you see is commercials for Toyota trucks (lying out their ASSes), Honduh, Mazda, and now Mitsubishi. And when it comes to recalls, Domestics get front page coverage, imports get maybe a mention buried deep somewhere, IF even that. In fact, when the Vibe/Matrix had a recall, NO mention was made of the Matrix, ONLY the Vibe, yet it was for BOTH.

So right off the bat you are completely full of crap (well, you have been all along, but referring just to this post now...). And you then proceed to try to position yourself as high and mighty, but in the end only ended up showing your ass because you're STILL completely wrong in all your comments about this subject.

Who supports America?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8657909&postcount=36

Toyota directly employed around 34,675 people in the United States, invested USD $15.5 billion, produced 1.2 million vehicles using US and foreign auto parts, sold 2.54 million vehicles, and donated USD $340 million to nonprofits. It has in total 10 plants, USD $2.9 billion per year payroll, purchased USD $28 billion in parts and supplies from 30 states. It created around 386,000 jobs in the United States as result of Toyota's spending and demand from suppliers. It celebrated its 50th year anniversary in the United States in 2007
GM directly employs over 284,000 people in the United States, and supports over 11 million jobs through suppliers, produced 2.9 million vehicles in the US in 2007, sold 3.8 Million vehicles in the US in 2007, donates thousands of vehicles and tens of millions of dollars to US emergency disasters and US charitable organizations, operates 50 plants in the US, and is now celebrating its 100th Anniversary.


Also, looks like GM buils more cars here than you thought, huh?


So, what about quality then? Surely the "educated" would not buy worthless American crap and waste their money, right? Instead they will be able to blindly support foriegn companies and get a better deal, right?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8540000&postcount=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjTbiYo3x0
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_tundra.htm

JD Powers 2007 Dependability study -


Most Dependable Midsize Multi-Activity Vehicle
Awardee(s): Oldsmobile Bravada

Most Dependable Van
Awardee(s): Oldsmobile Silhouette

Most Dependable Midsize Car
Awardee(s): Buick Century

Most Dependable Large Car
Awardee(s): Ford Crown Victoria

Most Dependable Midsize Sporty Car in a Tie
Awardee(s): Ford Mustang, Chevrolet SSR

2007 Initial Quality Study -


Highest Ranked Entry Premium Car in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Lincoln MKZ

Highest Ranked Midsize Sporty Car in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Ford Mustang

Highest Ranked Midsize Car in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Mercury Milan

Highest Ranked Van in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Chevrolet Express

Silver Plant Quality Award, North/South America
Awardee(s): General Motors Corporation - Oshawa #2, Ontario

Highest Ranked Large Car in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Pontiac Grand Prix

Highest Ranked Large Pickup in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Chevrolet Silverado Classic HD

Highest Ranked Large Premium Multi-Activity Vehicle in Initial Quality
Awardee(s): Lincoln Mark LT

Platinum Plant Quality Award, Worldwide
Awardee(s): Ford Motor Company - Wixom, MI

Look a few pages back and look at my list of "crap" GM vehicles, from the "worst" period of their history and see how they just, somehow, managed to not fall apart. Despite many owners (in some cases), and a fair amount of abuse.


And we've already talked about safety as well (in case you missed it).

So ultimately, US cars are quality, you are NOT getting less bang for the buck, less quality, or less safety by buying one, and, no matter how badly you want to believe the hype you are parroting, you would also be supporting American companies, American employees, and the American economy, which in the end is essentially supporting yourself and getting an even BETTER deal out of the purchase.

If you want to have your head in the sand (or up your ass) that's fine, but don't come in here all high and mighty spewing crap we all KNOW to be FALSE.

PWNED!!!!!!
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/mrbustamove2003/pwned.jpg

Yes, you're right. Racist and prejudiced against other human beings who are not exactly like them racially, NOT inanimate objects they happen to dislike.
So in your "car world" maybe you can say someone is a redneck if they dislike a brand because they hate the actual human beings who designed/engineered/built those import brands simply because they are racist towards the people themselves.
But NOT for any other reason (nationalism, trade, economics, whether correct or incorrect according to the said Econ 101 'professores' on here).

What exactly do you mean by "against any import car"??
Does that mean if someone simply refuses by choice to buy/own one (new OR used), they MUST BE a racist hardcore redneck according to your infinite wisdom (EVEN if they concur that there ARE fast, well built import nameplates)?? :confused:

I will never buy/own an import nameplated car.
But I have NO PROBLEM at all with buying/owning a domestic nameplated 4 cylinder car.

Whoa your going pretty far with this. I don't think people call others rednecks in the "car world" because they simply don't like a certain car. I have friends who don't like imports and would take a domestic over an import anyday, they have pretty badass ride's too, but they don't go around calling everyone with another car that's not a rwd v8 a ricer or fanboy. So your last paragraph, by my infinite hardcore widsom...I disagree with...

This is just my opinion, but I think people call someone a redneck or see them as one in the car world when that person is calling everyone else a ricer. If he doesn't like imports who care's, but if he's gonna dish out the name calling don't expect them to not throw it right back at em. You call someone a ricer, he calls you a redneck, fair is fair. As some wise little kid once said, "you started it!"


Can't believe your making such a big deal out of this, lol, I simply said if your gonna call any car owner that happens to not own a GM rwd v8 a ricer or fanboy, then he'll prob call you a redneck, you hate on him, he/she'll hate on you. You can't get butthurt being called a redneck when your out calling everyone else a ricer or fanboy that happens to disagree with you on something (you as in the general you).

PWNED!!!!!!


Nice, it's the Peanut gallery...

Whoa your going pretty far with this. I don't think people call others rednecks in the "car world" because they simply don't like a certain car. I have friends who don't like imports and would take a domestic over an import anyday, they have pretty badass ride's too, but they don't go around calling everyone with another car that's not a rwd v8 a ricer or fanboy. So your last paragraph, by my infinite hardcore widsom...I disagree with...

This is just my opinion, but I think people call someone a redneck or see them as one in the car world when that person is calling everyone else a ricer. If he doesn't like imports who care's, but if he's gonna dish out the name calling don't expect them to not throw it right back at em. You call someone a ricer, he calls you a redneck, fair is fair. As some wise little kid once said, "you started it!"


Can't believe your making such a big deal out of this, lol, I simply said if your gonna call any car owner that happens to not own a GM rwd v8 a ricer or fanboy, then he'll prob call you a redneck, you hate on him, he/she'll hate on you. You can't get butthurt being called a redneck when your out calling everyone else a ricer or fanboy that happens to disagree with you on something (you as in the general you).

OK, for the most part I agree with the above, and yes, my "infinite wisdom" crack was a little harsh and uncalled for.
I just thought you meant "hardcore redneck" in the generally accepted sense (bigoted, racist, right wing, etc.).
Anyone who seriously calls me this IS a fool/dumbazz/idiot, etc. given that I am NOT; right wing, racist, etc. and DO go out with Asian girls.
I actually prefer them to caucasian girls/women.
I try not to call people on here 'ricers' or such unless they have that; "ALL domestics HAVE TO BE; pure shit, slow, unreliable, etc. and ALL imports MUST BE; blindingly fast, perfect, infallible, etc." attitude.
I will call a lot of you Import Defense League members since a lot of you (as you've said, 'general' you) ONLY seem to be on this site for this purpose (in ONLY the SRK/Auto News/Racer's Lounge forums), and contribute nothing to the overall site (or other forums) other than "educating" us supposedly dumbass, rednecked, etc. domestic owners on the magnificent superiority of import nameplates (yup, sarcasm fully intended).
But even this is done most of the time in the 'give it and take it' tone of your above post. ;)

Import Defense League members ;)



lol, I'll drink to that :chug: I like all sortsa cars, just seems the 4 bangers or v6's or inline 6's (well not so much inline 6's), be it imports or domestics, seem to get bashed on more often around here, if v8's that I liked got bashed, I'd defend em too.


I've praised certain posts on here, like info on the new challenger and camaro, etc, or the zr1 which I think is one sick puppy all around! But those posts are overlooked because we all agree on em, so it's easier to miss those and assume some of us are just here to defend imports.

Dear DrkPhynx

Your right, I do see the light now! I must be Dense!
You ask me if I believe in what the media tells me and I clearly tell you that NO I don't. So you then proceed to bash the media that in your opinion love imports and hate domestics (that is your opinion and not something I can argue against) and then you rely on the media to prove a point that agrees with you. OK your right I am dense. Let's take a closer look at the media then.
I'll quote myself so there isn't an misunderstanding since you seem to enjoy misdirecting anything I say and embellishing things I don't...

They have finally produced a competitive car with the new Malibu and their truck line is still top notch...

...GM has the best line of trucks in the world, and they have the ability and the resources to do the same with their cars, but until they do Toyota and others will continue to out sell them.

I've already acknowledged that GM can produce cars that are equal to the competition and have never said that every car that GM makes is crap, however I'm gonna post the link to JD power so people can look at the COMPLETE lists rather than just the blurbs you decided to print since I don't have the time to scroll through each list and copy all the cars that have received 5 stars which FAR out number American vehicles.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-category

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-category

Look through all the lists and it's clear that for every car that an American company has received 5 stars for there's another 2 or 3 imports that also have received five stars. Look at the bottom of the lists and you'll notice more American cars that imports.
THAT is my point and THAT is what I have been saying all along.

But...hell how bout we use another independent study, how bout Consumer Reports...sure why not!

Best in class SUV's, Wagon's and Trucks
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-in-class/suvs-wagons-pickups/suvswagonsandpickups.htm

Best in Class Fuel efficient
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-in-class/fuel-efficient-vehicles/fuelefficientvehicles.htm

Best in Class family friendly
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-in-class/family-friendly-vehicles/familyfriendlyvehicles.htm

Best in Class Safety
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-in-class/safety/bestinclasssafety.htm

Best in Class owner satisfaction
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-in-class/owner-satisfaction/ownersatisfaction.htm

In every class up and down their list there was only one GM vehicle and that was the Chevy Silverado, unless you count foreign companies that GM has bought up...which you can if you'd like.

Point is I do my own research, do my own test drives and make my own opinions on what vehicles I buy, I did that when I bought my first car, I did that when I bought my truck and I'll do that when I buy my next car. And I don't need you preaching Old Glory into my Ear when I've been to the Middle East and other war zones for this country.

I've made it clear that I'm not an import lover and GM hater and that most media, biased or not, is still written by an individual or group of individuals with an opinion...something that I too have. Apparently that's a bad thing in your eyes which makes me dense...good to know, I'll try to improve on that.

This is a GM performance based forum and GM had one of the best line's of performance vehicles until they discontinued most of them but their drivetrain's are still top notch, and their after market far out does the competitors. Having that said it's obvious that people on these boards are gonna be pro X brand because they own one. But just because American power plants are IN MY OPINION the best out there does not mean that every damn vehicle made in this country is the best there is.

And thank you for posting these links...



So, what about quality then? Surely the "educated" would not buy worthless American crap and waste their money, right? Instead they will be able to blindly support foriegn companies and get a better deal, right?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8540000&postcount=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjTbiYo3x0
http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_tundra.htm



I guess your the guy who can't read so I'll quote myself...AGAIN because you apparently can't read!
They have finally produced a competitive car with the new Malibu and their truck line is still top notch...

...GM has the best line of trucks in the world, and they have the ability and the resources to do the same with their cars, but until they do Toyota and others will continue to out sell them.

It takes a real genius like yourself to try and prove me wrong with links to things that prove me right... I'll let that sink in because your slow. I think I will go bury my head in the sand so I won't have to deal with idiots like you.
Are we done yet?

PWNED!!!!!!
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/mrbustamove2003/pwned.jpg

I'm still here buttercup!

Just curious...do any of you actually work in the automotive industry or are you
merely outsiders looking in and speculating, bench racing, etc?

unit;

I have worked in the auto industry, but not presently.

Let's just say I have first hand insight into THE Japanese auto manufacturer attitudes/objectives.

Basically, despite them saying otherwise, they will NOT be happy until they put not only GM, but ALL of the other domestic first, and then ALL of the foreign manufacturers out of business.
YES, I have heard this stated first hand verbatim!!!

Now a monopoly is what all of you globalists/Econ 101ers want/admire??? :confused:
If so, have fun paying $75K for your shitbox Corolla!! :lol:
(This is addressed to said globalits/Econ 101ers NOT you unit!)

unit;

I have worked in the auto industry, but not presently.

Let's just say I have first hand insight into THE Japanese auto manufacturer attitudes/objectives.

That's cool...what level position did you hold? I'm assuming a high level
executive of some type within the auto industry? Outside of that, opinions
are just that...opinions.

Dear DrkPhynx

Your right, I do see the light now! I must be Dense!

The irony is that you say that sarcastically. lol


You ask me if I believe in what the media tells me and I clearly tell you that NO I don't. So you then proceed to bash the media that in your opinion love imports and hate domestics (that is your opinion and not something I can argue against)

lol, you know, the way you twist words and try to change your argument, if you're not actually a democrat, then you're about 3 steps away from becoming one, and they would welcome you with open arms. lol

Since you decided to make this get nasty, I'll play along. Read this a few times, sound it out and go as slow as you need to. Don't be afraid to ask an adult for help either, it's ok, honest.

You stated that the media panders to the US automakers (and indeed, all US industry). I proved that (and you) wrong, before moving on. Nice try at spinning it and trying to change your argument after the fact though.


and then you rely on the media to prove a point that agrees with you. OK your right I am dense. Let's take a closer look at the media then.

So now we see a classic Bubba "what does "is" mean?". I know you won't get that, basically it's you trying to twist definitions to get yourself out of a jam. "The Media" is an overarching term, that means it covers all avenues of information distribution. Pulling out a few independent studies and reports does not mean using "the media". However, even if it did, it just further illustrates the truth shown IN those reports, given their anti-US bias (overall) in the first place. Doesn't take a whole lot of deductive reasoning to figure that out. Not that it would stop you, even if you could figure it out, you'd blindly push on anyway.


you seem to enjoy misdirecting anything I say

"Anything"? Really? We've been talking/debating on the forums for a years now then, have we? Interesting.

Clearly we see that you don't grasp or utilize the language very well since you can't seem to clearly define what it is you actually mean when you say something. Or perhaps, even more to the point, you leave it intentionally vague so you can cry foul later when someone calls you on your bullshit.


I've already acknowledged that GM can produce cars that are equal to the competition and have never said that every car that GM makes is crap, however I'm gonna post the link to JD power so people can look at the COMPLETE lists rather than just the blurbs you decided to print since I don't have the time to scroll through each list and copy all the cars that have received 5 stars which FAR out number American vehicles.

The number of foreign automakers FAR outnumbers the number of domestics too. Statistics aren't a strong point for you either, are they? (rhetorical question, obviously they are not)

Let's take a look at this for a moment, just for the sake of other people watching you dance -

I see no reason in supporting a company that has it's base in America yet builds cars in Canada, Mexico and the Far east for import into the US.

So here you state that buying GM is not inherently supporting an American company, or the American economy - essentially saying that GM is not "truly" American because it has foriegn factories, and that products from those factories are also not "truly" American. And just to cut you off at the pass, spare us the bullshit games of trying to say that isn't what you meant or isn't what you said. It IS what you said, and if it's not what you meant, then you suck at English. Just that simple.

So I proceeded to blast you on that bit of Bullshit.

You also then said -
I don't understand people who say support GM...just because it's American. That would only make us blind and ignorant consumers!
I'll buy whatever product I deem is the best value for my money and needs.

So there are other cars that "suit your needs" where a GM product (or Ford, or Chrysler) does NOT. And thus we go to quality. What does one need from any car? Dependability? Performance? Power? Safety? Pick any 3 really (because power is referring to towing or hauling, while performace is referring to sports car performance). Well, the FACT (which you aren't really familiar with or apparently interested in) is that GM (and Ford, and Chrysler) cover ALL those bases for roughly the same dollar amount as anything from Japan Inc. So.... buying a Japanese car is either for blind obediance to the Zaibatsus, OR a matter of aesthetic preference (AND a lack of patriotic pride).

SINCE you did not say "I buy cars that suit my aesthetic taste", but instead claimed "needs", you clearly don't know much about the quality, or 'bang for the buck' of GM vehicles. You reveal yourself to be a mindless follower of the pro-Japan, Inc. hype. I know you hate being called on that, and I know you'll come back here very pissed off, but the rest of us see this. Sorry.


Look through all the lists and it's clear that for every car that an American company has received 5 stars for there's another 2 or 3 imports that also have received five stars. Look at the bottom of the lists and you'll notice more American cars that imports.
THAT is my point and THAT is what I have been saying all along.

Yep..... And you're WRONG, and have been WRONG all along. lol See the above. (as well as previous posts here and in other threads in this topic, it's far too tedius to hand-hold you and walk you through everything)


Point is I do my own research, do my own test drives and make my own opinions on what vehicles I buy, I did that when I bought my first car, I did that when I bought my truck and I'll do that when I buy my next car.

And you clearly do a piss poor job of it, AND don't give a shit about letting the US economy tank in the process.


And I don't need you preaching Old Glory into my Ear when I've been to the Middle East and other war zones for this country.

Here we go again. That doesn't mean shit. Sorry. It might if you actually knew what you were talking about OR felt AND displayed any sort of connection and loyalty to the growth and prosperity of the nation. There are troops who support Micheal Moore, their "veteran" status does not automatically confer creedance to what they say in, well, frankly ANY field, nor indicate patriotism.


I've made it clear that I'm not an import lover and GM hater and that most media, biased or not, is still written by an individual or group of individuals with an opinion...something that I too have. Apparently that's a bad thing in your eyes which makes me dense...good to know, I'll try to improve on that.

Do you know what this is about? Seriously? I can't tell if you just don't know, or are simply being argumentative for its' own sake.

I'll try to spell it out for you (which seems like a potentially daunting task) - You came into a thread which was started by someone dancing happily over bad news for GM, which proceeded to stir a lot of us up, and your second post leads with the comment - "I see no reason in supporting a company that has it's base in America yet builds cars in Canada, Mexico and the Far east for import into the US."

THAT is what this is about. THAT is why, if we assume you were being honest with your opinion there, you don't have much loyalty to national growth, or thereby patriotism overall. THAT is where you showed that you don't understand where the money goes when you buy a car, nor the importance of it. THAT is what caused the response. Do you see now?


Having that said it's obvious that people on these boards are gonna be pro X brand because they own one.

Classic liberal comment - advocating "diversity" for it's own sake over all else, and a mind so open the brain has fallen out. Ever think that perhaps people own brand X because they like it, and have been rewarded with quality and enjoyment over the years and THAT is why they are "loyal"? We know you never thought that it might be because they are patriotic and actually know that buying from Domestics keeps the money here - you showed you didn't know that it did (keep the money here) in your leading comment in your second post.


But just because American power plants are IN MY OPINION the best out there does not mean that every damn vehicle made in this country is the best there is.

No. It does not. What's your point? Buying a M-B or BMW or Ferrari or Lamborghini STILL sends my money overseas and helps a foriegn economy. And it DOES NOT help me get something that I CAN'T get here. Quality, power, price, performance, saftey, fuel economy, they can all be had from domestics. All on par with any competition, and where they lose out, it's not by enough to justify NOT helping MY economy and MY nation. But I know you don't get or care about that.


Are we done yet?

It would be nice if you were. But you're not. You'll be back once again. In fact, if you don't, it'll ONLY be to try to prove me wrong in this statement. But I'm betting your emotions will get the better of you and you'll be back here screaming in no time. Wonder just how long I'll have to wait. :D

Lol, that actually made me laugh!
But you've proven yourself well, congratulation...I concede that I am wrong.
:usa:

Although I do have a witty comment to make about almost every stupid thing you said, the more I read the more I lost interest , I do want to say one thing and they can Ban me for it if they like.
the following statement...


...There are troops who support Micheal Moore, their "veteran" status does not automatically confer creedance to what they say in, well, frankly ANY field, nor indicate patriotism.


That comment alone classifies you as a Bastard in my book. This country was founded on freedom in all aspects of life especially in speech. I actually enjoyed our banter prior to this post and have since lost all respect for you and there is no way in my book that you are a Patriot. Every soldier that is fighting for our freedom is patriotic no matter if he is liberal, democrat or republican. That is what we are founded on as a country and that is what I and my fellow brothers are fighting for. Go fuck yourself.
I don't care if I get banned but my duty to my country I value more.

When the discussions/debates break off into involving the military/U.S. armed forces it can get a little more complex and sensitive.
My gratitude and pride towards ANYONE serving this great nation and defending my freedoms and liberties is undeniable and unconditional.
Some will also add that any person serving our nation and putting their lives in harm's way is clearly entitled to buy/drive any vehicle they want, be it domestic nameplate or imported one, without having to endure the criticism, ridicule or even accusations of unpatriotism (shame on ANYONE who dares call a loyal member of our armed forces unpatriotic :disgust:) of anyone around them and I do try and respect that.

But then I think to myself, "why" would they want to buy/drive a vehicle produced by a 'non U.S.' domestic manufacturer when they care enough about the U.S. to possibly give their lives for it?
Some will say it's totally unrelated. That may be true.
Some will ALSO say that if you were a civilian living among the general population in the U.S. back in the '40s and '50s and you were seen/heard by 99% of our armed forces defending your desire and/or right to own a Japanese vehicle as feverishly/stubbornly as people do today, the sh|tstorm that would've reigned down on you would've been unbearable LOL. :usa:
Were they wrong to feel that way then?
I'm not that old but I do remember a time when a veteran would sooner walk then drive a vehicle made by anyone but a U.S. manufacturer.

That's cool...what level position did you hold? I'm assuming a high level
executive of some type within the auto industry? Outside of that, opinions
are just that...opinions.
No offense Unit.
I don't know why you would have to be an executive to be cognizant of the inner workings in the auto industry? I put in my time as a Test Engineer for 2 OEMs and feel we (the working Engineers) had a better understanding of the product and the market than most Execs had.

When the discussions/debates break off into involving the military/U.S. armed forces it can get a little more complex and sensitive.
My gratitude and pride towards ANYONE serving this great nation and defending my freedoms and liberties is undeniable and unconditional.
Some will also add that any person serving our nation and putting their lives in harm's way is clearly entitled to buy/drive any vehicle they want, be it domestic nameplate or imported one, without having to endure the criticism, ridicule or even accusations of unpatriotism (shame on ANYONE who dares call a loyal member of our armed forces unpatriotic :disgust:) of anyone around them and I do try and respect that.

But then I think to myself, "why" would they want to buy/drive a vehicle produced by a 'non U.S.' domestic manufacturer when they care enough about the U.S. to possibly give their lives for it?
Some will say it's totally unrelated. That may be true.
Some will ALSO say that if you were a civilian living among the general population in the U.S. back in the '40s and '50s and you were seen/heard by 99% of our armed forces defending your desire and/or right to own a Japanese vehicle as feverishly/stubbornly as people do today, the sh|tstorm that would've reigned down on you would've been unbearable LOL. :usa:
Were they wrong to feel that way then?
I'm not that old but I do remember a time when a veteran would sooner walk then drive a vehicle made by anyone but a U.S. manufacturer.

Those days are long, and gone. But i do wish i could spend atleast 1 day in the old days. To see what it was like everyone supporting the nation, and the domestic nameplates. Now its basically "i don't care if the domestic car brands do good, i like my _______ (insert forgein automaker/model) because its better than american cars" mentality. People cry everyday the economy this the economy that, well those same people i bet are driving something not made by an american manufacturer. If they want to help the american economy they should go buy american, and shut the fuck up. The days of supporting your countries cars are long gone (well in america), and will never come back.
-Joel

Those days are long, and gone. But i do wish i could spend atleast 1 day in the old days. To see what it was like everyone supporting the nation, and the domestic nameplates. Now its basically "i don't care if the domestic car brands do good, i like my _______ (insert forgein automaker/model) because its better than american cars" mentality. People cry everyday the economy this the economy that, well those same people i bet are driving something not made by an american manufacturer. If they want to help the american economy they should go buy american, and shut the fuck up. The days of supporting your countries cars are long gone (well in america), and will never come back.
-Joel

I don't know if I totally agree with the old days statement. I really like our modern cars, you can have your cake and eat it to...mileage, comfort, speed handling. The modern six speeds are much nicer than an old clunky Muncie 4 speed, no more pumping the gas pedal. Hell, my 02 GMC 1/2 ton is faster stock then the 70 SS350 Nova thats in an old Car Life magazine I have.

I hear you on your second statement. Most of the younger Engineers I work with wouldn't even consider buying an American car for no good reason (conditioning?). Considering I currently work for a large American aerospace firm, this is rather disconcerting. They take their pay for producing American products and use it to buy a BMW and Lexus. the saving grace is a handfull will only buy American and 90% of the Techs, Admin and support staff only buy American vehicles.

The thing I don't understand with GM

they want to make themself a global platform

So they bring over the opel vectra and by any means possible turn into a boring pile of crap called the malibu, no offense.

The euro opel vectra is well regarded car, but please I wish all they did was swap emblems. Don't touch the interior , wheel/tire pkg, suspension and leave in same euro drivetrains.

GM has someone caught on to this, the G8 is basically unchanged from the VE commodore. too little too late ?

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop-460x338/vectra_gts_040_bw.jpg
http://2008chevroletmalibu.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/2008-malibu-1.jpg

My 85 pontiac trans am has 856,000 miles and it cost me $500 and insurance and maintenance is dirt cheap......and its my daily driver, end of argument!

Those days are long, and gone. But i do wish i could spend atleast 1 day in the old days. To see what it was like everyone supporting the nation, and the domestic nameplates. Now its basically "i don't care if the domestic car brands do good, i like my _______ (insert forgein automaker/model) because its better than american cars" mentality. People cry everyday the economy this the economy that, well those same people i bet are driving something not made by an american manufacturer. If they want to help the american economy they should go buy american, and shut the fuck up. The days of supporting your countries cars are long gone (well in america), and will never come back.Key words right there. :werd:

People often scoff at that type of thinking but then I'm forced to ask them this:
In immediate post WWII ('40s, '50s, early '60s) America everyone that wanted it/needed it had employment, husbands earned enough cake to allow their wives to stay at home and help raise their kids with some guidance/discipline instead of letting them roam the streets getting into trouble like today, crime was more limited/contained and the nation was overall quite prosperous.
And what was probably 98% of the licensed population driving? :usa:
Coincidence? I think not.

The thing I don't understand with GM

they want to make themself a global platform

So they bring over the opel vectra and by any means possible turn into a boring pile of crap called the malibu, no offense.

The euro opel vectra is well regarded car, but please I wish all they did was swap emblems. Don't touch the interior , wheel/tire pkg, suspension and leave in same euro drivetrains.

GM has someone caught on to this, the G8 is basically unchanged from the VE commodore. too little too late ?

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop-460x338/vectra_gts_040_bw.jpg


WOW that looks great

Key words right there. :werd:

People often scoff at that type of thinking but then I'm forced to ask them this:
In immediate post WWII ('40s, '50s, early '60s) America everyone that wanted it/needed it had employment, husbands earned enough cake to allow their wives to stay at home and help raise their kids with some guidance/discipline instead of letting them roam the streets getting into trouble like today, crime was more limited/contained and the nation was overall quite prosperous.
And what was probably 98% of the licensed population driving? :usa:
Coincidence? I think not.

Well the options that Americans had at that time were quite limited as well. Alternatives were German for the most part and no sane american would buy one of those at the time. I mean if Iraq or Saudi made a car you probably wouldn't see any of us buying one.

That comment alone classifies you as a Bastard in my book. This country was founded on freedom in all aspects of life especially in speech. I actually enjoyed our banter prior to this post and have since lost all respect for you and there is no way in my book that you are a Patriot. Every soldier that is fighting for our freedom is patriotic no matter if he is liberal, democrat or republican. That is what we are founded on as a country and that is what I and my fellow brothers are fighting for. Go fuck yourself.
I don't care if I get banned but my duty to my country I value more.

You're looking for a free pass, and you don't deserve one. Nobody does. The only good thing is that your ilk are few and far between, because you'd give the rest a bad name otherwise.

I know you can't understand this, but if you disagree with the principles of The Founders, you are anti-American. Period. Doesn't matter one flying fuck what you got paid to do or where (in the world) you did it. And if you DO agree with The Founders (truly, not in the twisted liberal fantasy way), then you are conservative, patriotic, and would NEVER say the stupid shit you have said, nor seek the free pass based on the job you volunteered to do.

And none of the patriotic vets I know (including officers IN the sandbox right now - and 2 late grandfathers) would disagree.

Liberal = Socialist = Anti-American = unpatriotic (not to mention none-too-bright). Soldier or no. And that's all there is to it.

Well the options that Americans had at that time were quite limited as well. Alternatives were German for the most part and no sane american would buy one of those at the time. I mean if Iraq or Saudi made a car you probably wouldn't see any of us buying one.

Hey brilliance. America's enemy was Japan. The Germans were an also-ran. Someone we had to go after because we got involved and had to help our allies. The REAL enemy, the bitterly despised enemy, was Japan, who cowardly sneak attacked us. (although with the 20/20 hindsight of history we now know that it was not meant to be a true sneak attack but communication got screwed up, but it doesn't matter because at the time, it was regarded as one) And of course as the war progressed the fighting to the death, the brutal treatment of the POWs (Bataan death march, for example) and of all the conquered peoples didn't do much to endear them to us either.

NASA was run by a Von Braun and he took us to the moon, after the US Armed Forces spirited him away to avoid Nuremberg because he was too valuable (and honestly, he only worked for the Nazi's because they told him it was that or prison, he just wanted to build rockets). The Mustang was designed by an ex-Messerschmitt AG employee. Einstein was a German. Oppenheimer was of German decent. No German Americans were put into prison camps.

The reason nobody would own a German car after the war is because they sucked balls.

Those days are long, and gone. But i do wish i could spend atleast 1 day in the old days. To see what it was like everyone supporting the nation, and the domestic nameplates. Now its basically "i don't care if the domestic car brands do good, i like my _______ (insert forgein automaker/model) because its better than american cars" mentality. People cry everyday the economy this the economy that, well those same people i bet are driving something not made by an american manufacturer. If they want to help the american economy they should go buy american, and shut the fuck up. The days of supporting your countries cars are long gone (well in america), and will never come back.
Key words right there. :werd:

People often scoff at that type of thinking but then I'm forced to ask them this:
In immediate post WWII ('40s, '50s, early '60s) America everyone that wanted it/needed it had employment, husbands earned enough cake to allow their wives to stay at home and help raise their kids with some guidance/discipline instead of letting them roam the streets getting into trouble like today, crime was more limited/contained and the nation was overall quite prosperous.
And what was probably 98% of the licensed population driving? :usa:
Coincidence? I think not.

Exactly.

It's also the same people who bitch about oil, gas prices, Bush, and the war - ever notice that they drive like idiots, jack-rabbiting at lights, bunching together, clogging all the lanes, riding brakes down hills, and slamming on their brakes at lights and stop signs? And you know they never check their tire pressure, or air filter, or change their fluids, or keep their vehicles washed and cleaned out, either. :bang:

Although, I'd submit that the real reason for the amount of crime and socialism we have today are linked, and also stem from the hippies. They instituted hand outs, supported and excused the lazy, and proceeded to ruin their children and the school system and lead to the mess we have today. It's utterly disgusting. :barf:

That comment alone classifies you as a Bastard in my book. This country was founded on freedom in all aspects of life especially in speech. I actually enjoyed our banter prior to this post and have since lost all respect for you and there is no way in my book that you are a Patriot. Every soldier that is fighting for our freedom is patriotic no matter if he is liberal, democrat or republican. That is what we are founded on as a country and that is what I and my fellow brothers are fighting for. Go fuck yourself.
I don't care if I get banned but my duty to my country I value more.

Those comments alone make you a dumbass in my opinion, no offence. And yall can ban me for that. Just because you are a soldier and a veteran does not make you any more special or your opinion any more valid than any other American. Don't cry foul when someone calls you on your bullshit socialist point of view and says that you arent patriotic, there are in fact people in the military today who are NOT patriotic.

Yes, every person in this land should be eternally gratefull to the men who have risked and even gave their lives for the sake of this country. But that does not give the right for any soldier or veteran to go around acting like a crybaby when someone disagrees with him, if you are as much of a soldier you make yourself out to be you should start acting like a fucking man.

General rule of thumb is the more someone brags, the less they have really done (most of the time). The more shit they have done and seen, the less they brag, and they dont throw the 'veteran' card in peoples faces to get what they want.

And just to clairify where I'm coming from with all of this, I'm also a veteran (dont know if that contradicts my last point). If you are the soldier you say you are, start acting like one, and stop being a fucking puss. :usa::usa:

My 85 pontiac trans am has 856,000 miles and it cost me $500 and insurance and maintenance is dirt cheap......and its my daily driver, end of argument!

Odometer pic needed here! Million mile F-body. My brother in law has a 84 with 450k, but 856k is fantastic:nod:!!!!!

Well the options that Americans had at that time were quite limited as well. Alternatives were German for the most part and no sane american would buy one of those at the time. I mean if Iraq or Saudi made a car you probably wouldn't see any of us buying one.My point exactly.

So will it suddenly be 'ok' to own/drive an Iraqi or Iranian car 30-40 years from now? :confused:

That's cool...what level position did you hold? I'm assuming a high level
executive of some type within the auto industry? Outside of that, opinions
are just that...opinions.

No unit, not high level.
But like TT632 has stated, I still had plenty of chances to hear, direct and verbatim, what those Japanese national execs said/felt.
Remember, until very recently Japan, Inc./TOY had a nationalist/racial 'glass ceiling' whereby only Nippon nationals could hold any positions higher than mid level management even in THIS country!!
But they weren't 'racist'. :eyes:
In fact, they considered any U.S. based plant, distribution center, office building and the surrounding land to be sovereign Japanese territory, and only conceded to the laws of this land in order to be able to do their (lopsided) business here.
THINK about THAT for a moment.

My point exactly.

So will it suddenly be 'ok' to own/drive an Iraqi or Iranian car 30-40 years from now? :confused:

Iraq won't be producing cars anytime soon but you could always buy a Indian Tata...I mean Jaguar. Wow! that has to be analogous to Yugo buying Mercedes.
Sorry, off topic.

I don't know if I totally agree with the old days statement. I really like our modern cars, you can have your cake and eat it to...mileage, comfort, speed handling. The modern six speeds are much nicer than an old clunky Muncie 4 speed, no more pumping the gas pedal. Hell, my 02 GMC 1/2 ton is faster stock then the 70 SS350 Nova thats in an old Car Life magazine I have.

By no means am i saying cars from the past i greater than the cars of today. Im just saying i wish i could enjoy one day in the past when the american manufacturers ruled. Im only 24, but i can hardly imagine being my age in the late '60s and seeing Camaros/Firebirds, Corvettes, Chevelles, GTOs, etc... running up and down the street. Thats the time American cars were gods, and it must have been one hell of a time to live in for the average car guy/girl.

Either way now in present time people by cars on how they feel people will look at them driving it. Alot of people im sure like the Malibu, but would rather spend double the money on a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, because they feel people will look at them differently. Not even Cadillac is looked at the same way, only by much older people. My grandfather has told me stories on how back in the day if you wanted to be noticed you drove a Cadillac. Now if you drive a Cadillac people probably think its because you couldn't afford one of the over-priced forgein automakes.
-Joel

Hey brilliance. America's enemy was Japan. The Germans were an also-ran. Someone we had to go after because we got involved and had to help our allies. The REAL enemy, the bitterly despised enemy, was Japan, who cowardly sneak attacked us. (although with the 20/20 hindsight of history we now know that it was not meant to be a true sneak attack but communication got screwed up, but it doesn't matter because at the time, it was regarded as one) And of course as the war progressed the fighting to the death, the brutal treatment of the POWs (Bataan death march, for example) and of all the conquered peoples didn't do much to endear them to us either.

NASA was run by a Von Braun and he took us to the moon, after the US Armed Forces spirited him away to avoid Nuremberg because he was too valuable (and honestly, he only worked for the Nazi's because they told him it was that or prison, he just wanted to build rockets). The Mustang was designed by an ex-Messerschmitt AG employee. Einstein was a German. Oppenheimer was of German decent. No German Americans were put into prison camps.

The reason nobody would own a German car after the war is because they sucked balls.

Your an idiot for the first part of that statement, I wasn't aware that the Germans weren't our REAL enemy but a "also-ran...someone we had to go after".
And I guess the Germans treated prisoners in their death camps well. And no Japanese ever helped Americans during the war.
:rolleyes:

Exactly.

It's also the same people who bitch about oil, gas prices, Bush, and the war - ever notice that they drive like idiots, jack-rabbiting at lights, bunching together, clogging all the lanes, riding brakes down hills, and slamming on their brakes at lights and stop signs? And you know they never check their tire pressure, or air filter, or change their fluids, or keep their vehicles washed and cleaned out, either. :bang:

Although, I'd submit that the real reason for the amount of crime and socialism we have today are linked, and also stem from the hippies. They instituted hand outs, supported and excused the lazy, and proceeded to ruin their children and the school system and lead to the mess we have today. It's utterly disgusting. :barf:

Generalize much?
I'd like to hear your opinions about blacks, Asians, and Hispanics...please tell us how you truly feel! :thumb:

Those comments alone make you a dumbass in my opinion, no offence. And yall can ban me for that. Just because you are a soldier and a veteran does not make you any more special or your opinion any more valid than any other American. Don't cry foul when someone calls you on your bullshit socialist point of view and says that you arent patriotic, there are in fact people in the military today who are NOT patriotic.

Yes, every person in this land should be eternally gratefull to the men who have risked and even gave their lives for the sake of this country. But that does not give the right for any soldier or veteran to go around acting like a crybaby when someone disagrees with him, if you are as much of a soldier you make yourself out to be you should start acting like a fucking man.

General rule of thumb is the more someone brags, the less they have really done (most of the time). The more shit they have done and seen, the less they brag, and they dont throw the 'veteran' card in peoples faces to get what they want.

And just to clairify where I'm coming from with all of this, I'm also a veteran (dont know if that contradicts my last point). If you are the soldier you say you are, start acting like one, and stop being a fucking puss. :usa::usa:

LOL, that's cute...the reason I brought that up was the same reason you brought up the fact that you yourself are a soldier...to show where your coming from. So stop being a fucking hypocrite. I don't need you to hold my hand on how to abide by the Code of Conduct and I reserve my right to express my opinion on matters directed at me even when called unpatriotic. I find it amusing that I've been called a democrat, socialist and unpatriotic all in the same thread while discussing matters that refer to vehicles and the auto industry. Just for the record I'm a Republican but apparently there's a need by some people on here to label someone to a fucking group because they disagree with them...that's pathetic on your and DrRetard's part.
The point was regardless of political, religious or ethnic origin any soldier serving our country for us IS a patriot. And if I feel a need to defend that regardless of what you determine my manly hood is, than I will.
Back at you Dad :usa: :usa:


My point exactly.

So will it suddenly be 'ok' to own/drive an Iraqi or Iranian car 30-40 years from now? :confused:

No way in really knowing but if history repeats itself we might, we are driving Japanese and German products today. However those two countries were industrial powerhouses back then as they are today, the middle east isn't, so it'd be hard to imagine that they'd develop an automotive industry that can compete...but who can really tell.

By no means am i saying cars from the past i greater than the cars of today. Im just saying i wish i could enjoy one day in the past when the american manufacturers ruled. Im only 24, but i can hardly imagine being my age in the late '60s and seeing Camaros/Firebirds, Corvettes, Chevelles, GTOs, etc... running up and down the street. Thats the time American cars were gods, and it must have been one hell of a time to live in for the average car guy/girl.

Either way now in present time people by cars on how they feel people will look at them driving it. Alot of people im sure like the Malibu, but would rather spend double the money on a BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, because they feel people will look at them differently. Not even Cadillac is looked at the same way, only by much older people. My grandfather has told me stories on how back in the day if you wanted to be noticed you drove a Cadillac. Now if you drive a Cadillac people probably think its because you couldn't afford one of the over-priced forgein automakes.
-Joel

Well I was only ~12 - 16 years old during the height of that era, but yes, I can tell you it was cool as hell to see that whole scene happening for the first time.
And barely an import in sight, of ANY kind, ANYWHERE (EVEN in 'New Kyoto' {Cali :lol:}). Oh noes, today's import fanboiees would be heartbroken/sick with despair!! :D

And yes, I DO remember when Caddy WAS the pinnacle (save for the elitists and their Bentleys/RRs).
Sad that even when they ARE building GREAT product nowadays, the 'fur coat on wheels' status sheeple still refuse to buy them (or even give them a chance). :pissed:

With all of the negativity(Bad news sells) I thought I'd point out a Brighter spot on the Chevrolet front.

Here's a line on the Malibu from Edmunds on a recent ride and drive comparing it against the Camry and Accord. If Chevrolet can do this with the Malibu they can do this with the rest of their line. The Malibu team should be rewarded and used as an example for the other lines!!! On the other hand they could be courted away by competitors!!

"The Honda Accord and the Chevrolet Malibu were much closer to getting my top vote, and I agonized over which would get it. The Malibu was by far the best car to drive from a handling perspective, with the best interior and exterior design of the three. It had plenty of power, the brakes were firm and responsive, but not too "grabby." It really was fun to drive. There was virtually no body roll in a hard corner, and it retained its firm grip. To be fair, it should be noted that the Malibu has a slightly larger tire size than the other two, so that probably contributed to its good cornering. The interior was very attractive, if not a bit retro. I actually own a 2001 Malibu and it is astoundingly clear that GM did its homework on this one. There is no comparison to the old model. This Malibu is entirely new and its fit and finish is just as good, if not better, than Honda or Toyota. If GM can prove that it really has improved quality control in its manufacturing process, if they are using better components and can prove that their cars will be as dependable as Honda's, then based on what I drove on test day, I would pick the Chevy as the winner."

^ Nice find, and its true the new Malibu is nothing like those in the past few years.
-Joel

Your an idiot for the first part of that statement, I wasn't aware that the Germans weren't our REAL enemy but a "also-ran...someone we had to go after".
And I guess the Germans treated prisoners in their death camps well. And no Japanese ever helped Americans during the war.
:rolleyes:

So you're a liar, and still insist on trying to demean people who know more than you. Nice.

So tell me, since you're a history major now (lol), which came first, the G-10 or the G-14, and what were the differences?

You'll take a while to respond to that one while you google it. You're such a fraud.


Generalize much?
I'd like to hear your opinions about blacks, Asians, and Hispanics...please tell us how you truly feel! :thumb:

Simple logic eludes you, I know. So why do you keep coming back here after you already told us all that you were done?


LOL, that's cute...the reason I brought that up was the same reason you brought up the fact that you yourself are a soldier...to show where your coming from. So stop being a fucking hypocrite. I don't need you to hold my hand on how to abide by the Code of Conduct and I reserve my right to express my opinion on matters directed at me even when called unpatriotic. I find it amusing that I've been called a democrat, socialist and unpatriotic all in the same thread while discussing matters that refer to vehicles and the auto industry. Just for the record I'm a Republican but apparently there's a need by some people on here to label someone to a fucking group because they disagree with them...that's pathetic on your and DrRetard's part.
The point was regardless of political, religious or ethnic origin any soldier serving our country for us IS a patriot. And if I feel a need to defend that regardless of what you determine my manly hood is, than I will.
Back at you Dad :usa: :usa:

There's that issue with logic again. He said that only to show how much of a pussy you are being, not to seek any free pass like you are. (and no matter what you claim to be, your statements tell the real story about you)

So you're a liar, and still insist on trying to demean people who know more than you. Nice.
So tell me, since you're a history major now (lol), which came first, the G-10 or the G-14, and what were the differences?
You'll take a while to respond to that one while you google it. You're such a fraud.
Lol, your absolutely, positively the most entertaining moron I've ever come across! I love this, so...let's recap!! First I was a democrat, then a liberal, followed by unpatriotic, a socialist, a liar, and now I'm a history major that's apparently also a fraud because I think that the Germans were actually truly our enemies! (Dohhh...what was I thinking! :bang:) This is FANTASTIC!! You need to teach our children everything you know, and do it before it's too late. I once heard that nobody's born a Bigot, but with your help, we can get to them while they're still young!

PS I'll work on the G-10 and G-14 thing, maybe afterwards I'll find out who we were really fighting against...how exciting!!

Simple logic eludes you, I know. So why do you keep coming back here after you already told us all that you were done?


You ever come to the point when your dealing with someone, where you realize they are such a complete retard that you can't stop but hang around to find out what the next stupid thing they're gonna say is? Well that's where I'm at with you...and it's very VERY entertaining I must admit...I'M HOOKED!!! It's a shame that we ruined this thread in the process. :(
I don't know what makes you so dumb but it really works!! Keep it up!

Back for more... Despite telling us all how you were done, you persist. You just can't let it go. It eats at you every time I respond. Each of your posts gets increasingly shrill, emotional and laden with insults. I wonder how many pages it'll take for you to get bored....

Lol, your absolutely, positively the most entertaining moron I've ever come across! I love this, so...let's recap!! First I was a democrat, then a liberal, followed by unpatriotic, a socialist, a liar, and now I'm a history major that's apparently also a fraud because I think that the Germans were actually truly our enemies! (Dohhh...what was I thinking! :bang:) This is FANTASTIC!! You need to teach our children everything you know, and do it before it's too late. I once heard that nobody's born a Bigot, but with your help, we can get to them while they're still young!

There's that damnable logic trouble rearing it's ugly head again. I'll try to take you by the hand through this -

- You're a liar because you told us all how you were done going 'round and 'round with me over your bullshit, but then you came right back in, and are still here, and will be here for several pages, I'm sure, because you're transparent, you can't let this go, can you?

- If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck, it must be a duck - and you sure quack like a liberal. If you could read for comprehension, you'd see that I said "(the way you twist words and try to change your argument), if you're not actually a democrat, then you're about 3 steps away from becoming one, and they would welcome you with open arms". I know we've already discussed how English syntax isn't your strong point, but try to put in at least a _little_ effort.

- War was declared on Germany, but that is not what you were implying. See the previous point. To break it down for everyone else (since it's another logic problem for you) - you stated that there was no way Americans would drive German cars right after the war.... because we just were at war with them. And that's the trouble - sure we fought in Europe, and it gets all the press these days, but you revealed your total lack of knowledge of history here. The public didn't care about what was going on in Europe, that was their (Europeans) problem. We just spent 2 years in a war we tried to resist and they were right back at each others throats again. But then something changed that.... What do you suppose that might be? An attack perhaps? We went to war because of Japan. And the paranoia of the day showed that THEY were the "hated foe". The Germans were an enemy by default - the enemy of our friends and the friends of our enemy.

Do you know what Einsteins involvement with the war was?

There was a group of American Volunteers in WW1, they were in Europe. Were there any in WW2? If so, where did they go? (and why do you suppose they would have gone _there_?)

We could go from here into - what kicked the Soviet Aerospace industry (and indeed thier technology) into overdrive to reach parity with us (and why it happened)....

[And on a side note, this is classic - I think they were referring to it's Nuremberg times and at other tracks around the world, not necessarily it's acceleration tests. I was kinda like :confused: at first but that's what I assume they were talking about. - http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9320128&postcount=7 ]


You're barking up the wrong tree here. You should probably just let it rest.


PS I'll work on the G-10 and G-14 thing, maybe afterwards I'll find out who we were really fighting against...how exciting!!

Yes, you do that. It never hurts to learn about history. But what you might want to try doing is holding your tongue (or in this case, your fingers) regarding insults about a subject you don't *really* know that much about. Especially _after_ you were forced to admit that due to a challenge.


It's a shame that we ruined this thread in the process. :(

It is a shame that you've done this, but you don't really think that.

Back for more... Despite telling us all how you were done, you persist. You just can't let it go. It eats at you every time I respond. Each of your posts gets increasingly shrill, emotional and laden with insults. I wonder how many pages it'll take for you to get bored....

Yawn...



- You're a liar because you told us all how you were done going 'round and 'round with me over your bullshit, but then you came right back in, and are still here, and will be here for several pages, I'm sure, because you're transparent, you can't let this go, can you?


I guess you didn't get the message huh? You rekindled my interest in the BS that you type. If you were just opinionated it's one thing, but you actually believe your Bull shit, that's intriguing to me!




- War was declared on Germany, but that is not what you were implying. See the previous point. To break it down for everyone else (since it's another logic problem for you) - you stated that there was no way Americans would drive German cars right after the war.... because we just were at war with them. And that's the trouble - sure we fought in Europe, and it gets all the press these days, but you revealed your total lack of knowledge of history here. The public didn't care about what was going on in Europe, that was their (Europeans) problem. We just spent 2 years in a war we tried to resist and they were right back at each others throats again. But then something changed that.... What do you suppose that might be? An attack perhaps? We went to war because of Japan. And the paranoia of the day showed that THEY were the "hated foe". The Germans were an enemy by default - the enemy of our friends and the friends of our enemy.


I sure hope you aren't a History teacher teaching that shit to our kids! For a country that wasn't our problem but rather enemies of our friends, they sure made it a point to sink 674 American ships and kill 4,707 American Merchant Mariners BEFORE Japan ever attacked Pearl harbor! Hell you know what... Operation Pastorius which also happened BEFORE Japan attacked us, was a NAZI operation meant to destroy our waterways, railways and supply lines by landing saboteurs into the US, which they succeeded in doing, but were caught by the FBI prior to them accomplishing their mission. They also send U-boats UP into our rivers and Bay's and sunk ships inside our waters... BEFORE japan attacked us. But you know what, if you really think your gonna convince me that America didn't perceive Germany as a foe, and the public didn't care about the war in Europe, than your an idiot.
Keep the BS coming though.

Back for more... Despite telling us all how you were done, you persist. You just can't let it go. It eats at you every time I respond. Each of your posts gets increasingly shrill, emotional and laden with insults. I wonder how many pages it'll take for you to get bored....
Yawn...

lol Thanks for proving me right, yet again. The question is, just how long will you continue to do it?



I guess you didn't get the message huh? You rekindled my interest in the BS that you type. If you were just opinionated it's one thing, but you actually believe your Bull shit, that's intriguing to me!

Nice try here. But the truth is - "and (you) will be here for several pages, I'm sure, because you're transparent, you can't let this go, can you?"

You can't. You won't. You will reply to this, with more insults and more pointless textual crap. It would simply eat you alive to not do so. So, come on, dance for us. :)



I sure hope you aren't a History teacher teaching that shit to our kids! For a country that wasn't our problem but rather enemies of our friends, they sure made it a point to sink 674 American ships and kill 4,707 American Merchant Mariners BEFORE Japan ever attacked Pearl harbor! Hell you know what... Operation Pastorius which also happened BEFORE Japan attacked us, was a NAZI operation meant to destroy our waterways, railways and supply lines by landing saboteurs into the US, which they succeeded in doing, but were caught by the FBI prior to them accomplishing their mission. They also send U-boats UP into our rivers and Bay's and sunk ships inside our waters... BEFORE japan attacked us. But you know what, if you really think your gonna convince me that America didn't perceive Germany as a foe, and the public didn't care about the war in Europe, than your an idiot.
Keep the BS coming though.

Spending a LOT of time with google, eh? lol Nice, at least it's got you moving in the right direction.

FDR wanted in, but the public did not. They didn't fall for the Lusitania angle this time. The last war, the depression, it was too much, and we just wanted to stay home.

You didn't bother with ANY of the challenges posed to you though. But that isn't surprising, because this isn't about proving anything or debating, it's about your urge to flame. You simply can NOT resist it, can you? Come on, let this drop and never look back... I dare you. We both know better. ;)

But, to answer your question, I don't think I can convince you of anything. You're not interested in learning, nor debating, thus, there is no hope of ever convincing you of anything. I do however hope that somehow, someway, something of the research you'll end up doing will linger in memory, and maybe, eventually when your emotions come back down, it might actually stick and you'll have learned something from this. In the mean time, I'll sit back and watch. At least I know I'll have something to occupy me for the next week or so.... won't I? ;)

Somebody needs to :lock: this shit up..... it was funny at first, but its going to far.

Nice try here. But the truth is - "and (you) will be here for several pages, I'm sure, because you're transparent, you can't let this go, can you?"
You can't. You won't. You will reply to this, with more insults and more pointless textual crap. It would simply eat you alive to not do so. So, come on, dance for us. :)

Your resorting to Manipulation? :eyes:
I'm not interested...if you can't discuss your points than don't make them.



Spending a LOT of time with Google, eh? lol Nice, at least it's got you moving in the right direction.

FDR wanted in, but the public did not. They didn't fall for the Lusitania angle this time. The last war, the depression, it was too much, and we just wanted to stay home.


No not Google. I went to a military academy, so I do know what and where to look up useful information, and military history was a big part of our education.
and...
America was rotting in it's depression and the best way to get out of a depression is going to war and jump start the economy. So how do you figure that ONLY FDR wanted into the war and all of America did not?



You didn't bother with ANY of the challenges posed to you though. But that isn't surprising, because this isn't about proving anything or debating, it's about your urge to flame. You simply can NOT resist it, can you? Come on, let this drop and never look back... I dare you. We both know better. ;)

But, to answer your question, I don't think I can convince you of anything. You're not interested in learning, nor debating, thus, there is no hope of ever convincing you of anything.

Ok, challenge accepted convince me that America didn't consider Germany an enemy and we went to war reluctantly!

About your "challenges"...really? Please send your kid on a scavenger hunt, not me. I'm not here to prove myself to you, just on here for entertainment. I'm sure your a wealth of knowledge, some useless and some not, however I'd rather you concentrate on proving your point rather than steering the discussion away from it with games.

Your resorting to Manipulation? :eyes:
I'm not interested...if you can't discuss your points than don't make them.

Yep, as I said. We all know what's going on, that's why you're trying to deflect it with this sort of stuff. The truth is that you simply can't let it go. It would kill you. lol :)


America was rotting in it's depression and the best way to get out of a depression is going to war and jump start the economy. So how do you figure that ONLY FDR wanted into the war and all of America did not?

Oh here we go. lol I'm sure there were a handful of people who wanted in, people like Larry Bell and Glenn Curtis, for example (an assumption, because they would profit from it). But not the mass public and not Congress. Why? FDR couldn't get them to declare war. It's been said that he actually manipulated Japan's oil supply to force them to declare war on us to get us into the war. Whether he did or not, if it is true, they probably went further than he probably thought they would.

But either way, as soon as it happened, there was MASS outcry and an almost instantaneous declaration of war.


About your "challenges"...really? Please send your kid on a scavenger hunt, not me. I'm not here to prove myself to you, just on here for entertainment. I'm sure your a wealth of knowledge, some useless and some not, however I'd rather you concentrate on proving your point rather than steering the discussion away from it with games.

lol! :jest: Oh that is rich! You've been all about the games (and shrill emotion) from the outset. It's the only reason you're here. And it's the reason that you can't (and won't) let this drop. You'll be here with one obfuscated emotional "response" after another until this thread gets locked. :)

A few thoughts:

1) I don't support companies out of charity, I support them because they make products that I want to buy that provide value. If that product is made in the U.S, great. If not, oh well.

2) I don't think anyone's a racist because of their car selection.

3) There are several people on this forum that have a quasi emotional relationship with GM that I am not quite sure is mutual.

4) I don't think it's fair to criticize anyone for the car they buy. Cars are usually the 2nd largest purchase in your life, and they are financial liabilities. your choice in car should be selected with more then just raw emotion and patriotism.

5) If GM goes under, it's their own fault. End of story. Many of you do not know the entire story of the decades of ineptitude that has plagued GM and other American car companies.

A few thoughts:

1) I don't support companies out of charity, I support them because they make products that I want to buy that provide value. If that product is made in the U.S, great. If not, oh well.

2) I don't think anyone's a racist because of their car selection.

3) There are several people on this forum that have a quasi emotional relationship with GM that I am not quite sure is mutual.

4) I don't think it's fair to criticize anyone for the car they buy. Cars are usually the 2nd largest purchase in your life, and they are financial liabilities. your choice in car should be selected with more then just raw emotion and patriotism.

5) If GM goes under, it's their own fault. End of story. Many of you do not know the entire story of the decades of ineptitude that has plagued GM and other American car companies.

1) Neither do many of us. Choose the best American made product you can find.

2) I'm sure there are people who choose cars based on the race of the people making them. Sure, the number is low, but I'm sure it happens.

3) I'll admit I am biased toward GM vehicles. I’ve been employed by GM; I have family members that are currently employed by GM or suppliers. I have had stock in GM. When I think of GM I do think of upper-management and unwise decisions, but I also think of the people I know who earn their livelihood from them. I also am not blinded by poor past decisions when I see promising vehicles coming out as of late.

4) Of course it's fair to criticize people for the cars they buy. A ricer is a ricer:lol:.

5) If GM went under, lock stock and barrel, we would be all in a world of hurt. GM's health is a microcosm of America’s health; they support more American jobs than all of the Foreign Automobile manufacturers combined. If we lose any one of the Japanese or German Automobile companies and the consumer diverted their purchase to anyone of the big three, it would have a positive impact on our economy.

A few thoughts:

1) I don't support companies out of charity, I support them because they make products that I want to buy that provide value. If that product is made in the U.S, great. If not, oh well.

2) I don't think anyone's a racist because of their car selection.

3) There are several people on this forum that have a quasi emotional relationship with GM that I am not quite sure is mutual.

4) I don't think it's fair to criticize anyone for the car they buy. Cars are usually the 2nd largest purchase in your life, and they are financial liabilities. your choice in car should be selected with more then just raw emotion and patriotism.

5) If GM goes under, it's their own fault. End of story. Many of you do not know the entire story of the decades of ineptitude that has plagued GM and other American car companies.

:nod: Agreed and well said! :thumb:
:chug:

1) Neither do many of us. Choose the best American made product you can find.

2) I'm sure there are people who choose cars based on the race of the people making them. Sure, the number is low, but I'm sure it happens.



Your contradicting yourself.

Your basically saying to choose the best American product you can find and buy it, even if an import provides better value.
Then you say that there isn't a lot of racism but there is some because some people will buy cars based solely on who makes them.

:confused:

-YOU will only buy a US car solely because it's built by Americans, and yet if a someone buys a Japanese cars solely because it's built in Japan they are a racist? So at what point do we become racists for buying American cars just because they are american?


5) If GM went under, lock stock and barrel, we would be all in a world of hurt. GM's health is a microcosm of America’s health; they support more American jobs than all of the Foreign Automobile manufacturers combined. If we lose any one of the Japanese or German Automobile companies and the consumer diverted their purchase to anyone of the big three, it would have a positive impact on our economy.

No need to worry, GM will never go under, the US government wouldn't let it. Why...for the exact reasons you state.

1) I don't support companies out of charity, I support them because they make products that I want to buy that provide value. If that product is made in the U.S, great. If not, oh well.

4) I don't think it's fair to criticize anyone for the car they buy. Cars are usually the 2nd largest purchase in your life, and they are financial liabilities. your choice in car should be selected with more then just raw emotion and patriotism.

5) If GM goes under, it's their own fault. End of story.So you truly are completely comfortable with GM (or Ford, or Chrysler) going TOTALLY under, closing it's doors forever and chalking it up to "well, they may their bed now they have to lay in it" with no thoughts, concerns, fears about how it will affect your, your children's, your nation's futures?
The U.S. military puts it's life on the line for our freedom/way of life/national security and you won't even give a little charity (as you call it) to pitch in?:huh:

Or are you actually under the belief that the closing of GM's doors will have ZERO affect on any of that? That some of the occupations/livelihoods of people working in even the most remote industries (ie: the small tool and die shop in Georgia that makes a pin that's supplied to a large toolmaker that makes stamping machines for a GM plant in Wisconsin, the diner up the street from said shop, the trucker that delivers raw materials to said shop AND to said diner etc. etc. etc.) are directly or indirectly connected to GM?

You can trivialize/criticize those of us buying out of emotion, patriotism or nationalistic loyalty all you want but if GM closes, YOUR job WILL BE affected by it. End of story.

So at what point do we become racists for buying American cars just because they are american?Never.
The Japanese are doing that RIGHT NOW and yet no one seems to call them racist, so why can't I get the same courtesy as so many have afforded them?
Japanese people living in Japan buy predominantly Japanese nameplate vehicles. I'm simply an American trying to do the same.




No need to worry, GM will never go under, the US government wouldn't let it. Why...for the exact reasons you state.While I may or may not agree with you here, are you willing to test that theory?
I don't rule out the possibility of anything nowadays, relying on something like that is just not a risk I feel any loyal, honest American should be taking.
There was a time when it was believed that middle Eastern type terrorism could NEVER directly touch our shores either. :nono:

Your contradicting yourself.

Your basically saying to choose the best American product you can find and buy it, even if an import provides better value.
Then you say that there isn't a lot of racism but there is some because some people will buy cars based solely on who makes them.

:confused:

-YOU will only buy a US car solely because it's built by Americans, and yet if a someone buys a Japanese cars solely because it's built in Japan they are a racist? So at what point do we become racists for buying American cars just because they are american?



No need to worry, GM will never go under, the US government wouldn't let it. Why...for the exact reasons you state.


Ahh Spoolin-San, you must have had a basic Rhetoric class in your young life:punch:. "The broaden the topic strategy". I am not that naive, you evil Frenchmen:devil:. On the other hand I am the Master and you would be the student, abet a lazy one. Your one and two sentence responses show not a chance against my Wisdom and treachery:mad:. Hint: If you’re going to counter what I write, dissect what I actually say, and respond to it. I have seen you do better and I will respond if you do a good job!

While I may or may not agree with you here, are you willing to test that theory?
I don't rule out the possibility of anything nowadays, relying on something like that is just not a risk I feel any loyal, honest American should be taking.
There was a time when it was believed that middle Eastern type terrorism could NEVER directly touch our shores either. :nono:

I know GM isn't gonna roll over and play dead and your right I would never want to test that theory, but GM does know it as does Ford, that's all I'm saying. We're all seeing the quality of the products GM is putting out right now and it's evident that they are turning things around in a major way which is very exciting!!
To me it's a toss up on right now between the Malibu and Camary regarding quality, value, etc... That shows how much attention GM's committed into turning things around. Five years ago, hell 2 years ago people would laugh if you tried comparing the two! It's an awesome feeling to be able to feel proud of a Chevy family sedan!

Ahh Spoolin-San, you must have had a basic Rhetoric class in your young life:punch:. "The broaden the topic strategy". I am not that naive, you evil Frenchmen:devil:. On the other hand I am the Master and you would be the student, abet a lazy one. Your one and two sentence responses show not a chance against my Wisdom and treachery:mad:. Hint: If you’re going to counter what I write, dissect what I actually say, and respond to it. I have seen you do better and I will respond if you do a good job!

:jest: Well I wasn't trying to broaden the topic but I see what your saying.
I don't wanna test your wisdom and treachery either. :emb:
I was probably looking too much into the statement, and I do agree with your statement as a whole, just as long as what your saying applies both ways.

So you truly are completely comfortable with GM (or Ford, or Chrysler) going TOTALLY under, closing it's doors forever and chalking it up to "well, they may their bed now they have to lay in it" with no thoughts, concerns, fears about how it will affect your, your children's, your nation's futures?
The U.S. military puts it's life on the line for our freedom/way of life/national security and you won't even give a little charity (as you call it) to pitch in?:huh:

First, I think it's a travesty to compare the military to an automobile manufacturer, in an facet, to begin with.

I'm work in risk management and I am well aware of the financial implications that would happen in GM were to go belly up. It's not nearly as large as you might suspect.

Or are you actually under the belief that the closing of GM's doors will have ZERO affect on any of that? That some of the occupations/livelihoods of people working in even the most remote industries (ie: the small tool and die shop in Georgia that makes a pin that's supplied to a large toolmaker that makes stamping machines for a GM plant in Wisconsin, the diner up the street from said shop, the trucker that delivers raw materials to said shop AND to said diner etc. etc. etc.) are directly or indirectly connected to GM?

You're giving a very generalized example of something that happens across the U.S.

Let me ask you this. What company do you work for? If it's of any decent size, I'd wager a small fortune they've bankrupted several of their competitors, sending their employees to the unemployment line.

Also, don't paint GM as this altruistic generous company. Back in their heydey they devoured other companies, sending their employees packing.

You can trivialize/criticize those of us buying out of emotion, patriotism or nationalistic loyalty all you want but if GM closes, YOUR job WILL BE affected by it. End of story.

Actually, my job is plenty secure regardless of how bad GM does. My job is to minimize and diversify risk.

You might want to open a history book and look at what you are recommending. You're essentially supporting the Russian communist philosophy, by supporting the mother country regardless of the product it generates. Take the time to realize where that sent Russia.

What you're asking is for us to disregard the economic system that gave American unrivaled growth and prosperity. Capitalism isn't selective.

GM needs to raise $9 bln over next 2 years: Lehman

Wednesday May 14, 8:50 am ET

(Reuters) - General Motors Corp needs to raise about $9 billion over the next two years to refinance debt, and may seek more for operational cash burn as it faces production headwinds and commodity price increases, Lehman Brothers analyst Brian Johnson said.

GM will need to refinance close to $8.7 billion of debt due between now and January 2010, as well as absorb additional cash burn of close to $11 billion, Johnson said.

"When we last looked in depth at the GM liquidity position in March, GM credit spreads had spiked close to their widest levels of late 2005 and about 1000 basis points wider than their lowest point in 2007," he said in a note to clients.

Johnson said as the overall high yield market improved, GM spreads tightened about 300 basis points while rival Ford Motor Co spreads tightened more than 400 basis points, indicating greater relative comfort with Ford's liquidity position.

Last week, Fitch Ratings said both GM and Ford will continue to face heavy cash drains in 2008 and are likely to burn cash through 2009 unless industry sales rebound.

GM will likely see its liquidity eroded due to operating losses in the North American market and restructuring costs, Fitch said, adding that the company faces the risk of another ratings downgrade this year.

GM, which lost a combined $51 billion over the past three years, acknowledged at its annual Banker meeting that it would likely need to seek additional liquidity if selling conditions do not materially rebound in the second half of 2008, Lehman's Johnson said.

The company also said many of the steps it was taking to reduce risks related to its Residential Capital LLC mortgage unit as well as to auto-parts suppliers Delphi Corp and America Axle & Manufacturing will result in a cash outflow of $1.7 billion this year, Johnson, who maintained his "equal weight" rating and $24 price target on the stock, added.

Shares of the company closed at $20.20 Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/fi/pr/44311.gif (http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/080514/generalmotors_research_lehman.html?.v=1)