Understood, however because the LSx aftermarket is being actively researched and revamped I just don't see the LTx platform catching up.
Why is that? You can bolt a SB2 head on a LTblock, or ANY GEN1 head.... that levels the field Once you do that the money also levels out.
Hell YEARS ago MINDGAME built a six speed 383 or 396 dont remember with old school 15* GM heads, LT4 intake with custom built spacers. Car made 570 to the tires if memory serves on pumpgas and ran 9.80's all motor. It was a streetcar he drove to work on nice days.
__________________ 94 Z, Cahall 4L60E, solid roller 383 LT1, 3600lbs. 10.58@126, 1.43 60ft, pumpgas and radials. ALL MOTOR STREETCAR!
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 11-06-2009 at 03:03 PM..
Why is that? You can bolt a SB2 head on a LTblock, or ANY GEN1 head.... that levels the field Once you do that the money also levels out.
Doesn't matter. The market isn't there and most everyone is turning to an easier platform to make great N/A power and not have to stray and turn hybrid. Much like the traditional SBC, in a matter of time the LSx croud will breed the LT1 crowd out of existence.
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
Doesn't matter. The market isn't there and most everyone is turning to an easier platform to make great N/A power and not have to stray and turn hybrid. Much like the traditional SBC, in a matter of time the LSx croud will breed the LT1 crowd out of existence.
Wha???
The standard SBC was
bred out of existance now?? The SBC isn't going anywhere, and is still more common the LSX's.
Personally in an aggressive build like we are talking about I would rather run an SBC then LSX!
__________________ >>>Lotsa LTX Goodies for sale cheap!!!<<< 93 Med Pat Red Z28: 11.72 NA Stock Shortblock, Soon to be one *NASTY* All motor, GTP Ported AFR 220 headed, LE cammed, 23* hydraulic roller 383...eventually >.< 07 ZX6R Ninja: Bottom 10's w/ only gearing+exhaust...
\/\/\/-Stock 10-bolt F T W-\/\/\/
Apparently from the Street Racing section everyone and their mothers Honda beats crotch rockets now lol.
This is turning into the same old argument. Yes the aftermarket for the LSX is growing very fast. But the small block Chevrolet market is still extremely strong and has been around for a long time. I really don't understand why you guys can't accept that an LT1 is a SBC with reverse cooling. It does not take a lot of cubes to make HP with an LTX. I have said it 100 times on here, if you guys would do the same type of mods that the LSX guys are doing, things would be a lot closer. Instead this is the Hot Cam/AI/LE/305/TB section. It is extremely rare that you see anything of a "High Tech" nature in here.
True, Alan and Dave were pretty awesome to learn from....Bert, not so much.
Mike, you must be mellowing as you age. That was by far the closest thing to a compliment I've heard from you about B. It made me laugh hard enough to post.
You might want to edit it to something a little more vitirolic to preserve your image.
Jon
__________________ "Being able to "think outside the box" presupposes you were able to think in it." --Bob Lutz "You can't rape Mother Nature."--Tom Ankeny "Doin' what they say can't be done."--Bo Darville "Who gives a cluck?"--Stroker Ace
The standard SBC was
bred out of existance now?? The SBC isn't going anywhere, and is still more common the LSX's.
I reckon it depends on how you look at it. I am posting in a standpoint of those in the same demographic as myself- those between their 20's and 40's who are avid interweb posters who frequent the track when they can. How many of those people do you see who own a Chevrolet vehicle modding traditional SBC's compared to the LTx or LSx platform?
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
How many of those people do you see who own a Chevrolet vehicle modding traditional SBC's compared to the LTx or LSx platform?
I would say that of those that go to the track in this area it is 80% or more that run GM products with the SBC over other GM platforms. In the over 40's group it leans even more to the SBC.
I lived in the DFW area and went to Ennis and HRP on a regular basis starting in the early 90's. Before the LT1 came out the only car running around that fit the demographic were 5.0's on any given Friday night and there weren't a whole lot of them. Staging lanes were pretty empty. By the time the mid 90's rolled around Friday nights were packed, the interweb/mailing lists were coming out and street and track racing were booming. It's the same way when I moved to VA. The VA and MD tracks were overloaded with f-bodys except after I moved here it was all about the LS1. I never see LT1's around here that are anything more than bolt-ons or less.
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
Is a LSX block with an 11 degree ETP head a "hybrid"? Its still called an LS1 as far as I know. At least we still use the factory block. Is a LS1 with LS2 heads or whatever a "hybrid"?
What MAKES us a GEN2 LT1 is reverse cooling. You cant change that no matter what head you put on top of the GEN2 block.
I would MUCH rather have a quick LT1 than a LS1, every swingin dick has got a quick LS motor, not many LT1's that are quick, takes a little thought and knowledge to make one quick. LS platform pull out the credit card and order up some power. And still there arent many in the 10's all motor with a real street driven car.....why is that?
__________________ 94 Z, Cahall 4L60E, solid roller 383 LT1, 3600lbs. 10.58@126, 1.43 60ft, pumpgas and radials. ALL MOTOR STREETCAR!
Is a LSX block with an 11 degree ETP head a "hybrid"? Its still called an LS1 as far as I know. At least we still use the factory block. Is a LS1 with LS2 heads or whatever a "hybrid"?
What MAKES us a GEN2 LT1 is reverse cooling. You cant change that no matter what head you put on top of the GEN2 block.
I would MUCH rather have a quick LT1 than a LS1, every swingin dick has got a quick LS motor, not many LT1's that are quick, takes a little thought and knowledge to make one quick. LS platform pull out the credit card and order up some power. And still there arent many in the 10's all motor with a real street driven car.....why is that?
i dont know what part of the nation you live, but here in the lone star, there is plenty of typical street driven 10sec. n/a ls cars.
and with a clutch
Is a LSX block with an 11 degree ETP head a "hybrid"? Its still called an LS1 as far as I know. At least we still use the factory block. Is a LS1 with LS2 heads or whatever a "hybrid"?
Then LT4 heads on a LT1 block would be considered hybrid if you want to go that way. I have no idea about the 11* heads. What isn't a stock casting can be considered hybrid.
Quote:
What MAKES us a GEN2 LT1 is reverse cooling. You cant change that no matter what head you put on top of the GEN2 block.
I would MUCH rather have a quick LT1 than a LS1, every swingin dick has got a quick LS motor, not many LT1's that are quick, takes a little thought and knowledge to make one quick. LS platform pull out the credit card and order up some power. And still there arent many in the 10's all motor with a real street driven car.....why is that?
You would, but many don't want to hassle it and for the money one can go much further with heads/cam N/A LSx shit that you can with LTx. There's no reason to argue this since it is proven at the track time and time again.
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
You would, but many don't want to hassle it and for the money one can go much further with heads/cam N/A LSx shit that you can with LTx. There's no reason to argue this since it is proven at the track time and time again.
Very true, that almost all of us can agree on . It is just that as one person talks to another, it goes from being more difficult to keep up(which it is)to being impossible for any LTX to ever have any chance against an LSX with shorties and a lid . Just gets a bit tiring to see people told that they need all these mods to keep up with basically stock LS cars, when it is just not true.
Once you go into the more serious builds beyond the ported stocker/hotcam club and into aftermarket heads, single planes, etc the limitation IMO is the PCM...not the opti, reverse cooling, or other things that make an LTX. How many of those fast LSXs are spinning to near 8,000 rpms, while most LTXs hang out in the lowly 6500 range? Like Gizmo has said many times before, the REAL way to make power and run quick times with a smallblock are some killer heads and to spin the piss out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS RRR
You mean this sentence?
So are the top LS1's in the world running what.. 7's? Low 8's? If that's the case 4 to 5 tenths in 7 to 8 second cars is a HUGE gap.
BTW, I meant this sentence .
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawZ
so for anyone thinking the LS is that much better the gap is not as big as you might think. For the average guy with average bolt ons yeah.... but for serious builds the LTx motor is not that bad. It's just an SBC with reverse cooling...
__________________ >>>Lotsa LTX Goodies for sale cheap!!!<<< 93 Med Pat Red Z28: 11.72 NA Stock Shortblock, Soon to be one *NASTY* All motor, GTP Ported AFR 220 headed, LE cammed, 23* hydraulic roller 383...eventually >.< 07 ZX6R Ninja: Bottom 10's w/ only gearing+exhaust...
\/\/\/-Stock 10-bolt F T W-\/\/\/
Apparently from the Street Racing section everyone and their mothers Honda beats crotch rockets now lol.
I've pulled back on contributing to advanced technical discussions both here and on camaroz28.com. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy engine theory with the best of them and that is the main reason why I went to school for mechanical engineering. But, as many have said already, alot of technical discussion here on the boards turns into drama/bashing. We all have our inclinations towards certain vendors products, but these good technical discussions in the past end up almost always taking the turn to OPINION/BIAS.
Here is the scenario: A thread is started about how to build a 500rwhp LT1 stroker. The thread has 35 different people posting their opinion.....of which only 5-10 of them actually own (or have owned) a LT1 stroker. Now probably half of those people actually built/spec'd the motor themselves, and half of that half actually have a motor that really peforms like the thread topic (500rwhp) was asking for. So, in my opinion, you have 2-3 people in these threads that actually have the credentials to answer the questions asked. For the other 30+ people that have posted an opinion, their pride gets hurt by information from others that they believe is wrong, and it turns into teen-dramafest. Now we have hundreds of people reading these threads and it just propagates from there
The LSx engine is technically superior to the LT1....no doubt. But, a well thought out LT1 buildup can perform very well too. Some of us here know what an LT1 is capable of, but I disagree that (although we've seen great results) it's "easy" to just throw a set of SB2.2 or GM 615 heads on a LT1 and make killer power. I've spent a good amount of time talking to Mindgame and a couple others that have done these types of conversions, and it's just not feasible for MOST LT1 guys (both financially and from the machining end).
The reason why the LT1 scene has died WAY down over the past few years is not only because LSx engines make more power, but they are significantly easier to work on.....and.....are easier to tune. It's not to say that there are not LSx guys that are geniuses with what they are doing The LSx engine has rocked the performance world. But, Joe Wrencher is going to have a greater chance at building a successful LS1 car than he would with a LT1 car for the reason that it is just easier to work on/tune. That to me is why alot of manufacturers, enthusiasts, and shops have said "bye bye" to the LT1 for good.
Add all that to the norm of "under performing" LT1 combos becoming the "standard" for LT1 performance, and uneducated LT1 owners trying to give advanced technical advice to others (with no real experience) and it's no wonder people don't like the LT1.
Jason
Last edited by JasonShort; 11-07-2009 at 10:53 AM..
i dont know what part of the nation you live, but here in the lone star, there is plenty of typical street driven 10sec. n/a ls cars.
and with a clutch
I am in south Alabama, I can outrun 98% of all LSx based all motor streetcars(the ones I know of) around here. I am not blowing my own horn but almost ALL 10 second all motor LS car around here are gutted and on a trailer.
__________________ 94 Z, Cahall 4L60E, solid roller 383 LT1, 3600lbs. 10.58@126, 1.43 60ft, pumpgas and radials. ALL MOTOR STREETCAR!
I've pulled back on contributing to advanced technical discussions both here and on camaroz28.com. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy engine theory with the best of them and that is the main reason why I went to school for mechanical engineering. But, as many have said already, alot of technical discussion here on the boards turns into drama/bashing. We all have our inclinations towards certain vendors products, but these good technical discussions in the past end up almost always taking the turn to OPINION/BIAS.
Here is the scenario: A thread is started about how to build a 500rwhp LT1 stroker. The thread has 35 different people posting their opinion.....of which only 5-10 of them actually own (or have owned) a LT1 stroker. Now probably half of those people actually built/spec'd the motor themselves, and half of that half actually have a motor that really peforms like the thread topic (500rwhp) was asking for. So, in my opinion, you have 2-3 people in these threads that actually have the credentials to answer the questions asked. For the other 30+ people that have posted an opinion, their pride gets hurt by information from others that they believe is wrong, and it turns into teen-dramafest. Now we have hundreds of people reading these threads and it just propagates from there
The LSx engine is technically superior to the LT1....no doubt. But, a well thought out LT1 buildup can perform very well too. Some of us here know what an LT1 is capable of, but I disagree that (although we've seen great results) it's "easy" to just throw a set of SB2.2 or GM 615 heads on a LT1 and make killer power. I've spent a good amount of time talking to Mindgame and a couple others that have done these types of conversions, and it's just not feasible for MOST LT1 guys (both financially and from the machining end).
The reason why the LT1 scene has died WAY down over the past few years is not only because LSx engines make more power, but they are significantly easier to work on.....and.....are easier to tune. It's not to say that there are not LSx guys that are geniuses with what they are doing The LSx engine has rocked the performance world. But, Joe Wrencher is going to have a greater chance at building a successful LS1 car than he would with a LT1 car for the reason that it is just easier to work on/tune. That to me is why alot of manufacturers, enthusiasts, and shops have said "bye bye" to the LT1 for good.
Add all that to the norm of "under performing" LT1 combos becoming the "standard" for LT1 performance, and uneducated LT1 owners trying to give advanced technical advice to others (with no real experience) and it's no wonder people don't like the LT1.
Jason
Nail on head EXCEPT for the part about the heads, if you are building a stroker, you gotta buy the parts anyway. The head conversion is no big deal. The ONLY kicker is having headers built.
__________________ 94 Z, Cahall 4L60E, solid roller 383 LT1, 3600lbs. 10.58@126, 1.43 60ft, pumpgas and radials. ALL MOTOR STREETCAR!
i dont know what part of the nation you live, but here in the lone star, there is plenty of typical street driven 10sec. n/a ls cars.
and with a clutch
Indeed. Houston and DFW are known to have the fastest f-bodys in the nation. All you have to do is look at the last pump gas drags event to see an example of the leet cocks of the walk.
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
the limitation IMO is the PCM...not the opti, reverse cooling, or other things that make an LTX. .
Agreed! In my situation it was not the rpm limits of the lt1 pcm, but it's limited tuning software options. I want to tune myself and finding good software for the lt1 is non existant. Sure there are companies like speed inc that can tune the piss out of the lt1, but the do it yourself kind of guy is screwed with this platform. The software that is available for the lt1 has very little support, if any... I love the lt1, but the lack of support from the aftermarket companies is what made my final decision in moving up to the ls1. It's like going from vhs to dvd ya know...
__________________
2002 Z28, 1sc, A4, SLP lid, 1.85 rockers, jantzer ptb, hooker LT's w/ ory, cb exhaust, shift kit, 3.73's. times to come...
2000 Buick GS, gutted oe airbox, 3.4 pulley, 3" down pipe w/ stock exhaust, full tune. 13.81@101.2
2003 Silverado LS x-cab, 5.3, Airaid cai, 3.73's.
. Just gets a bit tiring to see people told that they need all these mods to keep up with basically stock LS cars, when it is just not true. 
