Nail on head EXCEPT for the part about the heads, if you are building a stroker, you gotta buy the parts anyway. The head conversion is no big deal. The ONLY kicker is having headers built.
I'm not saying that you can't put together a "converted" head LTx block combo for a semi-reasonable price. But, it's not going to have SB2.2 or GM 15 degree heads on it. Ask N2ODave or Mindgame how much they had in their top end I know you know the answers to this, but you keep wanting to argue that it costs the same as true LTx parts.
A friend and I built a 410ci LT1 with a set of ProAction heads converted for reverse flow cooling. Even with getting cost on all new parts and buying the heads used, I still had almost $3k in the heads alone. With a converted single plane, shaftmounts, etc..., the bill is over $5500 for the top end. That is well beyond a set of new AFR's or good ported LT1 castings with a standard intake manifold.
Sure, converted heads will make more power.....but it comes at a price. And that price is considerably more than stock "style" LTx stuff.
From my ~6 years hanging around the various LTx forums, that right there explains about 90% of the decline in quality I've seen.
Some of the most knowledgeable people got tired of that crap and stopped contributing. Snowball effect from there.
Here is the deal with that. Six plus years ago how many vendors were on the forums that had components worthy of good results? I can think of only one- Craig Gallant of Gallant Technical Performance. He was the rock star basically throughout the 90's and into the early 2000's. Everyone knew it. AFR work was shit. LG was shit. MTI was shit. There were great local head porters everywhere, but like today, everyone wanted to go with a proven performer and GTP was it. There was never at least two well known shops on the internet that were as popular as there are today.
I've been on car forums and mailing lists since they started and shit talk was rampant everywhere, but most everyone took it in stride because it was all about racing and improving a car by motivation. Most everyone involved in shit talk raced. That's hardly the case anymore.
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
Here is the deal with that. Six plus years ago how many vendors were on the forums that had components worthy of good results? I can think of only one- Craig Gallant of Gallant Technical Performance. He was the rock star basically throughout the 90's and into the early 2000's. Everyone knew it. AFR work was shit. LG was shit. MTI was shit. There were great local head porters everywhere, but like today, everyone wanted to go with a proven performer and GTP was it. There was never at least two well known shops on the internet that were as popular as there are today.
I've been on car forums and mailing lists since they started and shit talk was rampant everywhere, but most everyone took it in stride because it was all about racing and improving a car by motivation. Most everyone involved in shit talk raced. That's hardly the case anymore.
i remember those times, both those shops were the ones i remember, local to my area. except afr and lg. but the other 2 were the big dogs in those times. i had gtp stg.1 lt4 h/i on my car 10yrs ago. good times. before all the internet hype.
even before tech's time.
...but they are significantly easier to work on...
In what way?
Quote:
..and.....are easier to tune.
With the stock computer maybe, but there is still a very large market for aftermarket LTX computers. Just not on the forums. There are well over 100 active LT1 racers running NHRA and IHRA Stock/SS. Almost every one runs 10's N/A.
Here is the scenario: A thread is started about how to build a 500rwhp LT1 stroker. The thread has 35 different people posting their opinion.....of which only 5-10 of them actually own (or have owned) a LT1 stroker. Now probably half of those people actually built/spec'd the motor themselves, and half of that half actually have a motor that really peforms like the thread topic (500rwhp) was asking for. So, in my opinion, you have 2-3 people in these threads that actually have the credentials to answer the questions asked. For the other 30+ people that have posted an opinion, their pride gets hurt by information from others that they believe is wrong, and it turns into teen-dramafest. Now we have hundreds of people reading these threads and it just propagates from there
Add all that to the norm of "under performing" LT1 combos becoming the "standard" for LT1 performance, and uneducated LT1 owners trying to give advanced technical advice to others (with no real experience) and it's no wonder people don't like the LT1.
Jason
Jason, were you a part of the lt1edit archives? I remember the wealth of knowledge on there up until about the last year it was operating. All the mis-information led the originals to leave. I remember Christian, LJ Stevens, Jordon Musser, Chris B, Ellis, etc. Those were some real good discussions back then. Those guys are still around, I still talk to some of them on occasion.
Jason, were you a part of the lt1edit archives? I remember the wealth of knowledge on there up until about the last year it was operating. All the mis-information led the originals to leave. I remember Christian, LJ Stevens, Jordon Musser, Chris B, Ellis, etc. Those were some real good discussions back then. Those guys are still around, I still talk to some of them on occasion.
Sure was I haven't talke to most of those guys in a while, but I know Ellis is on here. I usually talk to Jordon once/twice a year to say hey. LJ sold his car, and I haven't heard what Christian is up to.
I personally think there is a lot of untapped potential (at least for the dollar) in the LTx platform with the new trick flow heads and the ability to convert to an LS1 pcm.
For instance, i never wanted to go solid roller in the past because of ignition and PCM constraints and therefore i talked myself into a mild build. Now that these new options are out I cant wait to take a stab at making some serious power.
I completely agree with this thread though, i also miss reading some of the old expert's posts. Especially mindgame.
This thread is kind of depressing, I got to page 3 and started contemplating an LSX swap, page 4 and I was searching classifieds for an LQ4 block but then I realized that I have 3k+ into an LT1 stroker build that I haven't even put heads on yet. To change gears now it would mean certain poverty and a probable divorce. Oh well maybe next year, until then I will be chasing oil leaks and reading countless threads about Optispark failures and the heartache they caused, then wondering how the same thread turned into an AI vs LE stalemate.
i think those cars are awsome but just too little tunning for them, oil leaks, optispark, etc...i personally love lt1 i think they have way more character than LS1 as far as the camaro... no doubt if i find a 6 speed teal LT1 like wiked94 ill buy it in a second...that car is so badass.....there is people i think that see it from the economic stand point, if you dump 2 grand into a ls1 car and the same into a lt1 car the ls1 is always going to net more power.....and the people that have lt1 now as mentioned before are diehards that just want to say fuck you to everything that is mainstream and easy.......lol
love lt1 and ls1. like back in the day when all people were on the sbc, but then a few never wanted to get out of the flathead motors knowing that the sbc was easier and faster.......
My biggest regret thusfar has been not knowing how to tune my own damn car, and at this point with the limited LT1 edit knowledge floating around these days it seems, I doubt I will be.
I hope to get my car tuned locally this year, get a spool in there, drop some weight and see about a 10 second pass...
__________________ Javier
355 LT1 - LE2 Heads - LE3 Cam - Moser 9" 4.11's - CPT Pro Race 4L60E - Yank PT4000 - Rest of the bolt-on's
Current best: 11.18 @ 120.33 1.556 60'
My biggest regret thusfar has been not knowing how to tune my own damn car, and at this point with the limited LT1 edit knowledge floating around these days it seems, I doubt I will be.
I hope to get my car tuned locally this year, get a spool in there, drop some weight and see about a 10 second pass...
Jump on the LSX PCM bandwagon, all the cool guys are doing it .
I'm fed up with tuning the LTX PCM, and an extra 1,000 rpm to play with wouldn't hurt either!
__________________ >>>Lotsa LTX Goodies for sale cheap!!!<<< 93 Med Pat Red Z28: 11.72 NA Stock Shortblock, Soon to be one *NASTY* All motor, GTP Ported AFR 220 headed, LE cammed, 23* hydraulic roller 383...eventually >.< 07 ZX6R Ninja: Bottom 10's w/ only gearing+exhaust...
\/\/\/-Stock 10-bolt F T W-\/\/\/
Apparently from the Street Racing section everyone and their mothers Honda beats crotch rockets now lol.
Last I heard (years ago) he was working on an oil rig somewhere in the Gulf as some sort of engineer. Dude is brilliant and for as smart as he is, funny as hell and great to hang out with.
__________________ We had a good run, Pops: 4/5/43 - 10/18/09
1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS #597 M6
395.3 SR with bead blasted cam lobes to add x-tra x-tra lifter roller traction. That's what wins races!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack @ CRD
Bret, we have never heard of or dealt with you or "Bauer Racing Engines."
Here is the scenario: A thread is started about how to build a 500rwhp LT1 stroker. The thread has 35 different people posting their opinion.....of which only 5-10 of them actually own (or have owned) a LT1 stroker. Now probably half of those people actually built/spec'd the motor themselves, and half of that half actually have a motor that really peforms like the thread topic (500rwhp) was asking for. So, in my opinion, you have 2-3 people in these threads that actually have the credentials to answer the questions asked. For the other 30+ people that have posted an opinion, their pride gets hurt by information from others that they believe is wrong, and it turns into teen-dramafest. Now we have hundreds of people reading these threads and it just propagates from there
Jason
I think people ignore real results with real cars. Mosts just post what they want to hear and hope for a responce that agrees with them. For instance, some guys want the biggest flowing parts out there, but don't want to rev it fast enough for those parts to actually become required. At 6,000 RPM a 383 at 100% VE (the vast majority of engines never go beyond 85-90%) is 665 CFM. So a big single plane and a 1000 CFM TB are pointless, never the less people all think thats what they need to go fast. That is a very expensive way to operate, and will surely lead to a let down.
__________________ 355 AI 200cc heads, mild SR cam, 6-speed, 12 bolt.
500 rwhp 430 rwtq SAE & 513 rwhp 441 rwtq STD
Bests 10.80 & 128.5 N/A Track Video
Creating the SS Original build video
My biggest regret thusfar has been not knowing how to tune my own damn car, and at this point with the limited LT1 edit knowledge floating around these days it seems, I doubt I will be.
I hope to get my car tuned locally this year, get a spool in there, drop some weight and see about a 10 second pass...
Im in the same boat. I absolutely love tuning and learning all the concepts to it, but when it comes to the software we have to work with I am clueless how to do anything, nor is making the adjustments I want to experiment with an easy task (manually entering a couple hundred new numbers, only on a hunch = not very efficient). I think you would pick up tuning quickly on an LS1 based PCM. Watching my buddy tune with HPTuners made me think about ditching the LT1 platform before, but now that a conversion is possible Ill just be doing that. HPTuners (and efilive) is a lot more visual and therefore gives you a much better feel for what you are doing.
I am in south Alabama, I can outrun 98% of all LSx based all motor streetcars(the ones I know of) around here. I am not blowing my own horn but almost ALL 10 second all motor LS car around here are gutted and on a trailer.
I was gonna say that.. the LS cars that can beat you must be nowhere near streetable or have a stock intake/tb/maf and gm heads on street tires with a 6-speed and 20k miles on the motor that has only been in the car driving for 7 months
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK85
You must not know the golden rule, if you get pulled over and are guilty STFU.
I really don't get why you guys are so closed minded when it comes to aftermarket computers. Almost every really fast LTX out there runs DFI, FAST, etc. Very few run the stock computer. It kills me when you get so excited about all the different band aids that get peddled on this forum. I purchased a new Formula in 1995. The first thing to go was the factory computer for a then new GEN 6 DFI. I have never looked back!
I really don't get why you guys are so closed minded when it comes to aftermarket computers. Almost every really fast LTX out there runs DFI, FAST, etc. Very few run the stock computer. It kills me when you get so excited about all the different band aids that get peddled on this forum. I purchased a new Formula in 1995. The first thing to go was the factory computer for a then new GEN 6 DFI. I have never looked back!
price is probably the main reason for most, but i completely agree id love to have a FAST system. Whatever the case i cant wait to wave goodbye to OBD1.
I know you know the answers to this, but you keep wanting to argue that it costs the same as true LTx parts. 
I haven't talke to most of those guys in a while, but I know Ellis is on here. I usually talk to Jordon once/twice a year to say hey. LJ sold his car, and I haven't heard what Christian is up to.
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