Car and Driver 2010 GTO or Firebird

[easy_rider]

Interesting discussion with some people at GM on which one will come back.

Car and Driver 2010 GTO or Firebird

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/...rd-or-gto.html

[landstuhltaylor]

as much as i love my trans am, it makes much more sense to bring back the GTO. the firebird is too similar to the camaro, while the gto can be made to be something very different and cater to a different audience.

[PlanB]

Originally Posted by landstuhltaylor

as much as i love my trans am, it makes much more sense to bring back the GTO. the firebird is too similar to the camaro, while the gto can be made to be something very different and cater to a different audience.

While I understand what your saying, it would make more sense to GM. Re-badging cuts cost. Plus the GTO failed and left a bad taste in the publics mouth. just my $.02.

[Formula350]

He[Lutz] has asserted that the days of product sharing and badge engineering are more or less over and has stated emphatically that no carbon copy of the Camaro will make it into any other GM-brand showroom.

Well that can be taken both ways, good or bad. Good that it could leave the Firebird to look nothing like the Camaro, but bad, that it could not ever come back.

It's sad that Lutz though the Monaro was a good resurrection of the GTO. I like the Monaro, don't get me wrong, but it should've just been named something else me thinks.

If it were up to Hopson, which would he choose? “Personally, some form of a GTO would be most appealing. Firebird and Camaro would be expected to be extraordinarily similar, and we could do more with GTO.” Wonderful PR-speak, but we see it as good advice for product planning, too.

Which is a good point. Why not make the Firebird similar, like it has been in the past, and then do whatever you want with the GTO. If we don't like the GTO, at least we have the Firebird to still fall back on, and even retro, it can't look too bad.

My advice? Make a G8 Coupe "GTO" Package and give us our Firebird. A G8 Coupe would look sweet, and it could still have a GXP with the GTO being more of a performance variant instead of luxury. Like the T/A and the Formula.

[bandit79]

Originally Posted by Formula350

My advice? Make a G8 Coupe "GTO" Package and give us our Firebird. A G8 Coupe would look sweet, and it could still have a GXP with the GTO being more of a performance variant instead of luxury. Like the T/A and the Formula.

I like that idea! I would bet that is what they are going to do, except the whole come out with the Firebird part

[DrkPhynx]

"Carbon copy"? "extrordinarily similar"? What are these people smoking?

camaros are ugly, boring, econoboxes. There's a REASON movies and TV shows always use the Trans Am and not the camaro. Plus camaros have a nasty rep and stigma too and everyone driving will inherit.

I can't beleive someone in GM is saying that the market "expects" the Firebird to be like the camaro and that they'd have more freedom with the GTO name. THAT is why GM is falling behind. Absolutely unbeleivable that someone with that sort of salary and power can be so damn stupid.

This is all lutz's doing. Trying to screw Pontiac again. He supposedly was given a boot upstairs to stop his damnable meddling, but it seems it hasn't worked. Deploy his golden parachute, NOW!

Make the Pontiac Zeta Coupe anything you want, but call it what people have loved for 35 years - Firebird. Make it adroit and agile, seating 4 with usable cargo space and name it after a car that was a great handler, with room for 4 and good cargo space - Firebird.

Nobody wanted the GTO in the 70s. Nobody wanted it in the 2000's. Don't bring it back AGAIN for no reason. Nobody wants it.

Even the head of Pontiac's "Sporty Car Division" in the 80s, who was recently interviewed regarding his creation of the GTA, knows that if Pontiac is to be a true brand within GM, it MUST have the Firebird.

And he had wanted to put the GNX engine in all GTAs and chase the import buyer market, leaving the camaro to the mullet heads. This makes perfect sense. We don't need a turbo V6, but we do need to continue the direction the GTA was going in - upscale, sleek (in fact, almost elegant), cool as hell, fully appointed, and one hell of a performer, PLUS usable rear seats and lots of cargo room.

(FWIW - I'm 6'2", 225lbs and I fit in my 2002 T/A's back seats - BEHIND my driver's seat in it's pushed back position, with the seatback pulled back to it's normal position and the door closed. Yes, those back seats ARE usable)

The LT1 continued the direction of the GTA stylistically, but the LS1 went backwards a bit, being MUCH more aggressive and mean (and I love it, don't get me wrong), but if they went back to a sleeker, more futuristic look, it would solve all their problems.

Sounds like chevy once again is pulling strings and throwing tantrums trying to keep the better version of the F-Body dead. (just like they always made excuses about how the Corvette engine would never work in the F-Body until GM said "do it", then suddenly it was no issue at all, feckers.....)

[Formula350]

To save a long quote, you're right Drk. The Firebird was always, in my mind at least heh, the Cadillac of F-Bodies. Bad reference, but it's got nice looks and luxuriousness in a sense, but it still is a muscle car at heart. After seeing the interiors of the 4thgen Camaros, I'm so happy I'm a Firebird person lol The Camaro is just so... blah :\

[DrkPhynx]

Originally Posted by Formula350

To save a long quote, you're right Drk. The Firebird was always, in my mind at least heh, the Cadillac of F-Bodies. Bad reference, but it's got nice looks and luxuriousness in a sense, but it still is a muscle car at heart. After seeing the interiors of the 4thgen Camaros, I'm so happy I'm a Firebird person lol The Camaro is just so... blah :\

Exactly. And that's WITH them stealing the Trans Am's steering wheel stereo controls (which go back to the GTA), at that. (to say nothing of the camaro Ram Air hoods appearing after Pontiac's)

Several years ago I owned a 1988 GTA, hardtop, black with tan interior and analog guages. It had a manual seat, but power lumbar support, a VATS key (one of the first after the Corvette), a stereo by Blaupunkt with the controls on the steering wheel, and a full instrument cluster, all in addition to the cloisonne badging, the embroidering on the inside, and overall good design.

I was also working in a garage at the time and I pulled in a customer's 1988 IROC-Z for an oil change. I had my car on a lift in another bay, also for an oil change. I took advantage of the opportunity for a side by side of the top of the line models for each side.

The camaro was ugly, plain and boring. It had a top button shifter instead of the T-Handle that even my 1984 T/A had. It had 2 giant guages in the center of the dash filled with idiot lights (and that's it). A crappy stereo, no controls on the wheel, no VATS key, no power lumbar support in the driver's seat.... nothing. It was an econo-box.

That doesn't mean it didn't perform and handle, and that isn't my point. For people who like that sort of thing, that's fine. And chevy is supposed to be the "everyman" brand anyway, and are at the bottom of the GM heirarchy in terms of market level, so it makes sense.

My point is that the Trans Am is definitely more upscale and of a higher class, nevermind having ALWAYS been better looking and often better performing.

IROCs were good for chasing Mustangs and playing in the bang for the buck realm. GTAs were the gentlemen's sports cars. More sophistication to go with the higher price. All the performance, but used by people who wanted more than a camaro, yet still need rear seats and cargo space (and thus, can't get a Corvette). You could *almost* liken it to an American Aston Martin in a way (power, performance, and sophistication, for the man who needs to kick ass in a suit, like James Bond ).

With the right rims and the flat hood, the LS1 T/A could almost get there, visually. But it's still quite aggressive. JasonWW did a great photo-chop of his car with the lower holes filled in and a flat hood, sitting low. Looked awesome. Totally reigned in the "I'm going to eat your face!" look of the WS6. Still not as sleek as the flat hooded LT1s, but certainly way cool.

But you know what, even if they went hyper aggressive again, that's cool too. Pontiac does it better than anybody. Continue the LS1 styling exercise and keep the "I'm coming over there to kick your ass" look, but also keep the amenities. In fact, go *further*. Add more sound deadening and tune the ride better (along the lines of a BMW), install a better sound system, use better leather, etc, etc. We know it's not going to sell in the #s of the camaro, so don't shoot for that. Make it the low volume car it's supposed to be. Price it against Evos and STis (mid to high 30's), just give it that level of sophistication. (it could compete apearance-wise in that market in terms of aggressiveness as we know Pontiac can do that, but offer a RWD, American, 2-door option to people with that kind of budget, interested in that kind of appearance and flash. Most Evo/STi people I know don't like 4-doors, but look past it for the styling and sophistication and performance of those cars, and the Import/Domestic quality perception gap is slowly changing as well, so it's actually quite a feasible idea).

Sorry for another long post, I got carried away again. lol

[wabmorgan]

Originally Posted by DrkPhynx

The LT1 continued the direction of the GTA stylistically, but the LS1 went backwards a bit, being MUCH more aggressive and mean (and I love it, don't get me wrong), but if they went back to a sleeker, more futuristic look, it would solve all their problems.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think GM is missing the fact that Firebird/T/A owners like a futuristic looking sports car.

2nd gens sales were flat when then 3rd gens came on line. And 3rd gens were flat when the 4th gens came on line. And for the 3rd and 4th gens... both brought very significant sales increases when they were released.

The 88' Banshee prototype was very popular at car shows and got very favorable reviews for the public.

Even GM stated that the 4th gens were a "blending of the 3gen Firebird and Banshee prototype."

This should tell GM that Firebird owners want a
slick futuristic looking sports car!!!!!

As far as not allowing rebadging.... I don't necessary disagree with that. Personally, I would love to see the Firebird return as a larger car then the Camaro, maybe a g8 variant.... and something that would have the super slick futuristic styling we are wanting!!!!!!!!

[DrkPhynx]

You don't get it.

The statement was that they didn't want to do something "too similar" to the camaro - that's the ONLY reason to go a different direction, and IF they did, that would allow them to produce both.

Nowhere in there can be inferred that this demographic only wants a "futurustic look". Bottom line is that the 2nd Gen was the highest selling point for the Trans Am, ever. They weren't exactly sleek or subtle, as it was that period that the Trans Am became the "in your face" car, and that is what people really like.

As for bigger - that's just flat out idiotic. There is no reason or justification to make it bigger. Bigger means heavier, heavier means worse performance (not to mention gas mileage, though that is entirely secondary). The 4th Gen was the perfect size - big enough to put 2 adults in the back seats (if they don't mind leaning toward one another and getting close) comfortably enough for a 15 to 20 minute ride, and tons of cargo space, especially with nobody in back, yet small enough to look good as a coupe, and not be overly hampered by excess weight due to size. (they weighed 3500lbs as it is, every inch of length added is going to be incredibly painful to performance. making it bigger will turn it into a pointless, and as such, worthless, vehicle.)

[HFLDtA]

Yttgtggt

[wabmorgan]

Originally Posted by DrkPhynx

You don't get it.

The statement was that they didn't want to do something "too similar" to the camaro - that's the ONLY reason to go a different direction, and IF they did, that would allow them to produce both.

Nowhere in there can be inferred that this demographic only wants a "futurustic look". Bottom line is that the 2nd Gen was the highest selling point for the Trans Am, ever. They weren't exactly sleek or subtle, as it was that period that the Trans Am became the "in your face" car, and that is what people really like.

As for bigger - that's just flat out idiotic. There is no reason or justification to make it bigger. Bigger means heavier, heavier means worse performance (not to mention gas mileage, though that is entirely secondary). The 4th Gen was the perfect size - big enough to put 2 adults in the back seats (if they don't mind leaning toward one another and getting close) comfortably enough for a 15 to 20 minute ride, and tons of cargo space, especially with nobody in back, yet small enough to look good as a coupe, and not be overly hampered by excess weight due to size. (they weighed 3500lbs as it is, every inch of length added is going to be incredibly painful to performance. making it bigger will turn it into a pointless, and as such, worthless, vehicle.)

I'm not saying that demographic only wants a "futuristic look", however the retro designs have been very controversial.

As for a larger car. I'm not looking for a signigant increase in size. My only complaint with the 4th gen is the rear seats are for kids only!!!! Hell... if you are going to complain about not wanting a silghly longer car.... they might as well go the other direction and throw out the rear seats altogether. They are almost worthless as is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wabmorgan]

Originally Posted by HFLDtA

Whatever they choose, it will look just like the Camaro. Simply because that how GM does business- its cheaper to swap ext. parts/badges. Can anyone else agree?

Sadly.... I agree

The Firebird if it returns will likly be a copy-cat of the Camaro. And I say that dispited the fact I HATE retros.

[corey10632]

Hopefully, the gto if it does come out will be as radically different as they are insinuating. The Camaro and firebird are pony cars whereas the gto was a muscle car hopefully they give it the traits of a muscle car rather than a pony car. Mabey down the road Pontiac can have both a GTO and a Firebird, we just got to hope the Camaro does well.

[DrkPhynx]

Originally Posted by corey10632

The Camaro and firebird are pony cars whereas the gto was a muscle car hopefully they give it the traits of a muscle car rather than a pony car.

Which is why you can't twin those 2. Doesn't work.

Impeach lutz and build the car America liked better then, and now. The car that seats 4 and has lots of cargo room and is a phenomenal performer all around - the Firebird.

[DrkPhynx]

Originally Posted by wabmorgan

Sadly.... I agree

The Firebird if it returns will likly be a copy-cat of the Camaro. And I say that dispited the fact I HATE retros.

Retros are hated only by people who want to be cool and hate on something.

If you like the car and want it back SUPPORT IT. It does not matter one bit if you like the styling or not. If it's in production it can and will change. If nobody can agree and everyone constantly spews negatitivty about every idea.... it won't happen.

I've said it a million times to people - look at the chevy guys, they ALL wanted their car back and they didn't care HOW. And they got it.

Many so-called Pontiac guys around here are an insult to the rest of us. (general statement, but true)

[DrkPhynx]

Originally Posted by wabmorgan

As for a larger car. I'm not looking for a signigant increase in size. My only complaint with the 4th gen is the rear seats are for kids only!!!! Hell... if you are going to complain about not wanting a silghly longer car.... they might as well go the other direction and throw out the rear seats altogether. They are almost worthless as is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm really not surprised to hear that coming from you....

Originally Posted by DrkPhynx

(FWIW - I'm 6'2", 225lbs and I fit in my 2002 T/A's back seats - BEHIND my driver's seat in it's pushed back position, with the seatback pulled back to it's normal position and the door closed. Yes, those back seats ARE usable)

I am NOT a small guy. A long torso, and a heavy frame, which means broad shoulders and hips. There is plenty of foot room, hip room, and shoulder room.

Yes, I had to splay my knees on either side of the seat-back, and I had to either tilt my head, or lean in toward the center. So what? For a half hour trip somewhere it's liveable.

HARDLY for kids only, and FAR from "useless". It's not a luxury sedan, you're not going to take people in the back seat across the country, that's not the point. That's like trying to drive a spike into a railroad tie with a finishing hammer and complaining that the hammer is useless. It's not the hammer's fault you're using it incorrectly.

The average adult male is 5'10", 180lbs. 45lbs is a lot of size when you take into account that I am not fat (it's a heavy/large frame and musculature that makes me 225). And 4" is nothing to sneeze at either, that would mean more knee room and more head room.

2 average adult females will fit even MORE easily.

I was comfortable back there. And would not mind sharing the journey leaning into a cute girl. Hell, that might even be the brilliance of those seats.

[HFLDtA]

Think abHHHHH

[wabmorgan]

I do hate RETROS.... but unlike others.... I hope the bird does return even if it is a retro. (But I won't be buying one if it does return as a retro.)

I buy my cars based upon how I think they look. How I like them. Not based upon a nameplate. The name is really not that important to me.

And maybe my new car.... should be a GTO.... if that means it won't be retro and it would have larger rear seats and if PONY car means smaller. And Muscle car means larger.

Frankly the those rear seats are for kids and I certainly wouldn't want to be back there with a girl. There simply isn't enough room. If you know WHAT I mean. I'm a little bigger than you are(Not fat either.) and I simply say there just isn't enough room. And I've heard more than a few complaints from friends smaller than I that ridden back there. Those 3rd and 4th gen rear seats were also criticized by several automotive mag reviewers.

Of course I don't agree with their thinking either. They actually complained about the rear seats being too small then turned around and complained the car was too large, too much of a boat!!!!!!!!

I guess it is all in what you want to drive. That is one reason I have said the Firebird should not be retro. And the Camaro should. You can market to both that way.

I think GM is doing well in their truck division. I WISH I could see some of that line of designing in their car division.

The only car on the market currently that I like is the vette. (That is if they don't kill it. I WISH they would have kept the pop-up on them... but I can live with out that.) Opps.... there goes that rear seat issue.... right out of the back of the car!!!!!

[DrkPhynx]

Ok, try to follow this.... If I fit in those seats, AND am comfortable, then clearly, they are NOT "only for kids".

It's simple logic and it really is amazing that you have this much of a hard time with it. I mean, the windshield angle and Cd thing I could see, as aerodynamics are much harder concept to grasp (although, that was a pretty basic premise of that concept and as such, not very difficult in it's own right, but nevermind.....), but this... this is like breathing or falling off a log (so to speak).

Something "only for kids" would not allow a larger than average adult to fit in, let alone comfortably, and would also not be strong enough to support them either.

And once again you went off on your own and mis-read what was written. Nothing was said about getting frisky in the back. I wouldn't do that in the FRONT for god's sake.

I took 4 people (counting myself) on a trip that was over an hour long, in my 1984 Trans Am. One of them was about my height, though much more lanky, and he was in the back seat on the way home. In other words dude, to be blunt, you're wrong. Period.

Having said that, an hour or more long trip is not the purpose of those seats. I did that because it was my only car, but nobody minded. Need to take 2 or 3 friends to lunch? Going with a couple of buddies to the movies, or x-mas shopping, or any other similar farily local location? THAT is what those seats are for.

Or pull them out and put amps and such back there. WTF is the problem?

What you want (even if you don't want to admit it), is a 300C or so-called "charger" (it's NOT a Charger, but nevermind.... lol) SRT/8. You get your V8 power, and seat 4 comfortably, and with the bonus of no ungianly entrances or exits into the back.

The fake GTO is smaller than my car ('02 T/A WS6). That was hardly the answer (and it had a crappy trunk thanks to safety regs, not sure of total cargo capacity off hand, but I'd bet my car is equal or better).

The 4th Gen T/A was perfect. A sports car that *could* carry up to 4 in a pinch if you needed to (hell, I generally don't allow ANYONE in my car anyway, why the hell are you trying to play taxi with yours?). It was small enough to allow for amazing performance, amazing looks, and has all the creature comforts. It's an all around vehicle that is pretty much the ideal compromise all around. Any smaller would be too small, and any larger will be too heavy. One will sacrifice utility, and the other will sacrifice performance.