DEI was contracted to build just the motors of the phase 3 cars. The phase 3 cars has in affect the same engine that the C5R racing Vettes do.. GMMG contracted them to build the motors. You should know that GM likes to subcontract out there engine builds now to save cost, hence why some 01 and 02 Camaros got the LS6 block due to a surplus in LS6's being produced by the contractors. The exception to this for sure I know is the LS9 which is hand built and assembled in shop..
I would take this ZL1 over the ZR1, I love the fact it looks like a normal 4th gen on the outside, but is pure race blood on the inside... This car is the ultimate sleeper, I mean 600hp on a DD car....Given, your right I probably wouldn't drive it much but still, it was tuned for a daily driver and its Naturally aspirated....be very amusing to see a Procharger put on it, but with that compression, you probably would never want to push more then 5 or 6 psi...
And I forget the rear end type they put on these, but I believe the 4.56 was a special option even on these cars. I thought I remember them having a 4.11 gear or a 4.10 or something like that.
And to the poser who said, "legit" ...whats not legit about this, these came like this, and ARE factory cars..... This is a legit factory muscle
car....and yes..I really do like Camaro's I keep telling you guys this.. lol
**edit 4.10 gears like I thought, http://mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0109-77554" it also mentions DEI but not as the builder of the phase 3 427's on that engine....**
edit 2 also the 427 has electric cutouts, and adjustable springs, and some have reported it to have upwards of 700hp despite being rated at 600........
so you ask me, would I pay 90k for a production vehicle with close to 700hp on the dyno and every mod on it that I want to do, with a car that has 1000 miles on it total.....the answer is yes...you bet your ass...
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
I hate to break it to you, but the only thing that motor has in common with a c5r motor is the block. Now if it had c5r heads, c5r intake manifold, then it would be a different story.
FYI, this is what a c5r motor looked like...and Kateck built those.
Also, that 600hp was crank, which is a respectible 500 or so at the wheels. Respectible, but not incredible.
And DEI (the Nascar team) had absolutely nothing to do with the car. GMMG built the Intimidator SS for Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet (his personal Chevy dealership) which was some bolt ons plus the typical black, red, white theme of his #3 race car, hence the title, Intimidator SS.
And just because some guy on the viper forum says he knows of some dynoing 700hp, that doesn't mean shit. I call BS on an ls6 headed, Weiand aluminum intake, 427 making much more than 525 at the wheels.
I hate to break it to you, but the only thing that motor has in common with a c5r motor is the block. Now if it had c5r heads, c5r intake manifold, then it would be a different story.
FYI, this is what a c5r motor looked like...and Kateck built those.
Also, that 600hp was crank, which is a respectible 500 or so at the wheels. Respectible, but not incredible.
Im looking for dyno results, people have claimed closer to 700 RWHP....
Also I can't seem to find my backup on the DEI, I found one site that said "tuned by DEI" but that was it, I was following these cars when they came out though, and the DEI built engine came from a magazine article, I just wish I could remember the magazine.
And ya, obviously its not the exact engine, that C5R engine itself I doubt would be suitable for any type of street car, but how many street Vettes do you see getting the C5R blocks stock????
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
Sorry, there's nothing really 'special' about having a c5r block these days. The block isn't going to give you any more power than an ls7 block these days. And I've never read or heard about DEI having anything to do with these cars. GMMG was the supplier to certain chevy dealers like Berger, Earnhardt etc.
And DEI (the Nascar team) had absolutely nothing to do with the car. GMMG built the Intimidator SS for Dale Earnhardt Chevrolet (his personal Chevy dealership) which was some bolt ons plus the typical black, red, white theme of his #3 race car, hence the title, Intimidator SS.
And just because some guy on the viper forum says he knows of some dynoing 700hp, that doesn't mean shit. I call BS on an ls6 headed, Weiand aluminum intake, 427 making much more than 525 at the wheels.
Ok so our ls1's are rated for 325hp, and in stock trim they are putting down 300-310...so how the hell would you LOSE 100 rwhp on this car??? that dosn't make sense, also they are CUSTOM ls6 heads, and the block itself is a factor here as well as the cam/crank and every other mod on this car, compression is 12/1... I can easily see it getting every bit of 600hp.
Im also looking for 1/4 mile runs to verify all this, I havn't found one that would be considered legit enough though but I have found some running low 10's already claiming they are stock, although I saw slicks........
Also still looking for something that backs up my DEI claims. Of course I could still be wrong in this, but I have read this before, or perhaps like the other site I read said, they were just tuned at DEI...
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
Sorry, there's nothing really 'special' about having a c5r block these days. The block isn't going to give you any more power than an ls7 block these days. And I've never read or heard about DEI having anything to do with these cars. GMMG was the supplier to certain chevy dealers like Berger, Earnhardt etc.
What is special, is that this engine block was used way before the LS7 block.... Yes agreed, the LS7 or even LS9 would be a "better" engine, but....this car is in its "stock" trim for 2002 before they made those engines, and with only 1000 miles...
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
I know they used the c5r block because it was a GM part to get them their 4.125" bore they needed for a 427. I didn't say it wasn't a cool thing, but to act like the block gave them more power, or the 'special' ls6 heads is incorrect.
Unless it was a solid roller, one off 427, I don't see it making 600rwhp back in 2002 especially with what amounted to an LS6 intake manifold.
I know they used the c5r block because it was a GM part to get them their 4.125" bore they needed for a 427. I didn't say it wasn't a cool thing, but to act like the block gave them more power, or the 'special' ls6 heads is incorrect.
Unless it was a solid roller, one off 427, I don't see it making 600rwhp back in 2002 especially with what amounted to an LS6 intake manifold.
The ls6 heads were modified and ported. And why wouldn't more CI allow more hp that the C5R block gave them??
heres a build on one with the 4.56 gear similar to the one on the auction...
what kind of horsepower would you see from out ls1's if these were the mods......??? what would you expect from a 427 CI engine that's 81 CI larger??? again with a 12/1 compression.... I'm still not seeing how its hard to believe.... This cars sticker price was like $95,255 for all the factory installed mods...
It doesn't even give you full specs on pistons, or the cam in this car, both "apparently" unique to this build..
and notice its calls it by name gmmg phase III cnc ported ls6 head..... Umm....that says to me its special if they took the time to name the head....
'02 Chevy Camaro, GMMG ZL1 Supercar
ENGINE
Type: Gen III small-block, Phase III with GM C5R Race Case
Displacement: 427ci/7.0L
Oiling: Stock
Crankshaft: Callies forged 4340, 4.00-inch stroke, ATI damper
Connecting Rods: Callies billet 4340, 6.125-inch, ARP fasteners
Pistons: JE custom forgings
Cylinder Heads: GMMG Phase III CNC-ported LS6, 2.055/1.600 valves, titanium retainers, Cometic composite head gaskets
Camshaft: Exclusive GMMG Phase III custom hydraulic roller
Induction: Weiand aluminum LS1 intake modified by Wilson Manifolds, high-flow MAF housing, carbon-fiber airbox lid
Ignition: Stock LS6
Exhaust: 17/8-inch-tube GMMG headers, 3-inch Y-pipe, 4-inch collector, electric cutout with dash switch, GMMC chambered after-cat exhaust
DRIVETRAIN
Transmission: Stock Camaro six-speed, Hurst shifter, white Hurst shifter
ball
Rearend: Stock with 4.56:1 gears
CHASSIS
Front Suspension: Eibach 1.5-inch lowering springs, Penske PS-7540SA Series double-adjustable shocks, GMMG swaybar, GMMG upper and lower control arms
Rear Suspension: Eibach 1.5-inch lowering springs, Penske PS-7540SA Series double-adjustable shocks, GMMG swaybar, GMMG lower control arms and Panhard bar
Steering: Stock
Brakes: Corvette ZO6 front and rear calipers with ZO6 pads and slotted rotors
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
You could buy a clean 4th gen and build a sick engine for it for much less than $90k. Who cares if it is rare, at the end of the day you still have a camaro.
Listen, the ls7 in the c6 z06 puts down roughly 430-450 rwhp in stock form. Add in a decent sized cam, headers, programing and you're right around 530 rwhp, sometimes more depending on the size of the cam. Now, the ls7 heads are better than any set of ported cnc ls6 heads circa 2002, and the ls7 intake is leaps and bounds better than the intake manifold on the gmmg car. It's not rocket science. Do some reading in the dyno or gen 4 ls motor section and see what typical 427 motors are making today, with better heads and intakes.
and notice its calls it by name gmmg phase III cnc ported ls6 head..... Umm....that says to me its special if they took the time to name the head....
Dude, with comments like those you're credibility is dropping quicker than Obama's approval rating.
I worked @ GMMG part time for a while. I know what the cars have put into them, what they make to the ground, etc...The best of the best parts (at the time) were used, and the 427 ZL1 cars were doing 500-505ish to the ground with the tuning we had available back then. Are they nice cars? Yes. Were the best parts used? Yes. Is it some GM super car worth 90K? Not in my opinion. But then again, 90K is a lot of money to me. To someone who makes that in a month, it may not be as big of a deal.
As it's said in an earlier post. You can buy a $90,000 ZL1, but at the end of the day you still have a 4th Gen Camaro.
looks like a regular camaro to me why dont you just make one for 1/4 the price. flame on !
__________________ Greg, Pennsylvania 1994 pontiac trans am, just rebuilt lt1, . 3.73 gears and new eaton posi.hooker catback and k&n cai race built A4,. msd coil, ac delete, !air! .performance tranny cooler. pacesetter lt's, free mods 95 3.4 camaro- piece of work
And, belive this or not, 3rd and 4th gens are my favorite types of Camaro's and I would take a 4th gen Camaro over any Viper or Lambo, the only Car I would consider a trade for would be a Vette, HOWEVER, I would not trade off my Camaro's to drive a Vette, If I could have only one, it would be a Camaro.....
My favorite car since I have been 6 years old, ...for the last 20 years......has been Camaro...I don't see that changing.
Still gona try to find a dyno result, I find it extremely hard to believe that with the SAME EXACT drive-train as our LS cars, this engine loses 100 hp to the wheels. If that were the case, our engines would have to put out 415 hp to the flywheel......
And seriously? in 7 years we have come so far in cars that 600hp is UNHEARD of for a 2002???? that's a joke right??
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
looks like a regular camaro to me why dont you just make one for 1/4 the price. flame on !
Because then it wouldn't be my dream car. The 2002 ZL1 has been my dream car since 2001 when I first saw it.
Yes I know for 90k you could build a way better 4th gen fbody, but then at the end of the day, its still not a ZL1 regardless of how much you want it to be.
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
Was at a car gathering today and and I was talking about how my car made 350 HP at the rear wheels and this 16 yo dude asks:
Thats awesome! How much power do you make at the front wheels?
This is a ZL1 Camaro.....this wasnt a "TUNER" job its one of the most rarest Camaros in exsistance, and would probably beat any stock zo6 save the brand new ones, and even then, it would be close... it has a C5R engine built by DEI "Dale Earnhardt Inc" and only 69 total ZL1's were produced, and of those, even less Phase III 427's......
If ever there was a Camaro, it would be this one.....factory modded, with everything you would ever want in a daily driver, yet fast as all hell too...
You realize that those cars ARE tuner cars right? They were bought as stock 2002 Camaros and then converted by GMMG. Therefore, just like ALL of the 4th gen special editions, they are "tuner" cars.
There was nothing largely special about the GMMG cars either, except for the widebody cars. The rest were built with off the shelf parts. Nothing extreme was done to them that someone with a large (but not 90k large) wallet couldn't do.
Sadly, these just aren't special cars. They were basically the SS for the people who were quick to part with 50-90k.
__________________ 2004 Chevrolet Colorado I5/A4- Belltech l Volant l HP Tuners
1991 Pontiac Trans Am L98/T56- SLP l Doug's l Flowmaster l Bassani l Corbeau l Spec l TrueForged l Nitto l Pro 5.0
Look, I know you've said this is your dream car, but it's not this magical unicorn that you're making it out to be. Yes, it had the best parts on it at the time, which translated to ~500 rwhp just like Damian said, and he stated that he worked there for a period of time.
Ask the Venegance guys what the ZL1s made at the wheels since they also worked at GMMG, and see what they say.
I have no doubt that a run of the mill 402 ls2, with l92 heads, FAST intake, and mild cam would make more power than the ZL1's with ls6 heads and a 'reworked' ls1 intake made.
Find me a dyno sheet of anyone making 500hp with an ls6 intake NA, I bet you will have a hard time.
