Got to go autocrossing yesterday

[jdroelle001]

I posted this on my v6 board but I wanted to post it here cause there were about 4 ls1 camaro's at the even in Fostoria Ohio yesterday.

It was a blast, most fun I've ever had in my life. I was put in the ESP class due to my mods. I had a ton of trouble getting traction cause my crappy goodyear all season radials, and im sure my open 3.08 rear doesnt help. I did pretty good though, and my last run I pushed it a little too hard and practically drifted the entire course (which may have been the funnest run lol).

My times were as follows, 1st run to 5th run, respectively

54.xxx
52.849
51.268
51.174
51.509

Average times were high 40's low 50's so I'm happy. I kept getting loose out of the turns, I just couldnt get any grip. I was manually shifting my automatic through 1st and 2nd cause my first run I just left it in 2nd and it took too long to downshift.

One guy from my group still has to upload pics for us and I hope to have some better ones from the track soon (its a permanent track).

[NJSPDER]

Glad to hear you had fun. Just be careful, it's addictive

[jdroelle001]

Originally Posted by NJSPDER

Glad to hear you had fun. Just be careful, it's addictive

Your not kidding, I'm already addicted. Unfortunately this is the last even of the season for my region...

[NJSPDER]

That's not unfortunate, that is great luck. Now you have time to collect advice and find ways to improve your car. You also have time to do a little reading. There are a variety of books about performance driving, go get a few.

One nice thing about the 3800 cars is that the front to rear weight is almost exactly the same as the LS1 cars. So most of your chassis upgrades are already very very well researched and developed.

-Tim

[MrEddie]

I'm likely going to head out for a try this Sunday. I also have the stock Goodyear 16 inch wheels I'll be using - it sounds like they aren't the best option but oh well. Would you recommend increasing the psi (how high is safe?) to try and reduce sidewall flex? Thanks!

[NJSPDER]

Optimal pressure is something you will have to look at the tie to determine.

Go out with them 5 psi or so high than you normally run them. After your first run, look at the shoulder of the tires. You want the tire to be able to get all the way over on the tread blocks, but not down the sidewall. If the scrub marks are still up on top of the tread blocks, lower the pressure, if the scrub marks go down onto the sidewall you will want ot increase the pressure.

I used to keep white shoe polish with me and put a few dots on the side of the tread blocks of each tire and freshen between runs. It makes it much easier to see how the tire is working, especially after a few runs.

Also, be sure to look at each tire and consider it on it's own. Depending on course configuration, surface texture, transitions, and driving style, each corner may come up with it's own unique result.

The biggest thing to do is just have fun. You aren't going to set a world record your first time out, so enjoy it and see what you can learn from it. See if more experienced guys have an advice and ask around if there is an instructor that will do a ride along and point things out to you.

Good luck.

-Tim

[MrEddie]

Thanks for the tire tips! I also have a daily driver Mazda 3 manual, so I'm probably going to try that car next month if I'm hooked. I wish you could study the course prior to Sunday, but I guess that would give away some competitive advantage (only old courses are posted).

[Sam Strano]

That's part of what makes autox harder than say, drag racing. You have to learn the course *that day*, and make the most of your course walks. A true test of a driver's experience and ability (which gets better with experience, I promise).

Autocross is the hardest form of competitive driving. Not to say that drag racing or being a road course are easy, but in each case there is not nearly as much going on, and where you are going is a lot more obvious and you don't need a lot of brain power to think about it. Autox is much more mental. Road courses are faster in terms of speed, but an autox is like a roller-coaster, you don't need to go 150 to feel like you are hauling ass or to put the car on, or over the limit.

[mitchntx]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

That's part of what makes autox harder than say, drag racing. You have to learn the course *that day*, and make the most of your course walks. A true test of a driver's experience and ability (which gets better with experience, I promise).

Autocross is the hardest form of competitive driving. Not to say that drag racing or being a road course are easy, but in each case there is not nearly as much going on, and where you are going is a lot more obvious and you don't need a lot of brain power to think about it. Autox is much more mental. Road courses are faster in terms of speed, but an autox is like a roller-coaster, you don't need to go 150 to feel like you are hauling ass or to put the car on, or over the limit.

Sam, I acknowledge that. A new course each day and limited time to learn it is a huge part of the being competitive in AX.

But when wheel to wheel racing, you have a dozen or so other cars, all working to occupy the same space at the same time. Not only is the driver attempting to keep track of his own car, he has to know exactly where the 2 or 3 cars are that are around him.

It would be like all of a sudden and without warning adding a couple cones to a turn just as you enter it.

And car setup is a challenge. It's not so difficult to set up a chassis to be fast on line. But having a car that is also fast off line is what will win races.

Both AX and W2W have their respective challenges. But I don't think one is harder than the other.

[Sam Strano]

Track days and wheel to wheel racing aren't the same thing. I certainly acknowledge it takes a lot of mental awareness when you have others trying to pass you. But track days where you have to point folks by, etc. is not road-racing.

And I'm sure you'll agree that it's a lot harder to see your way around an autocross than a track simply due to the fact you have all pavement and the course is defined by pylons vs. having a road laid out. No?

Different disciplines, for sure. Very similar in the fact both are about speed, having a balanced car, and having fun. Road-racing is very hard. Lapping days, not so much.

[NJSPDER]

Autocross and track day concentration are very very different to me.

Both require proper car placement and a strong mental focus. The difference I see is the consequence of mistakes. Even if you are doing a time attack on a road course, you blow a corner, you have time to recover. In an autocross, you get lost in the sea of cones, it is over and you better hope you have another run to get it right.

Door to door racing is similar to autocross to me in regards to consequences for mistakes. If you botch a corner a little bit, especially early in a race when everyone is packed up, it costs a ton.

I see it all as the same basic skill groups, that is why so many cone chasers have success on tracks and vice versa. The application does not in any way limit the skill group.

-Tim

[mitchntx]

Agreed, Sam.

You used the word "competitive" and I default to W2W ...

[Sam Strano]

Time trialing is competitive, which makes it harder than just a lapping day. But road-racing is another step again more involved due to traffic.

[mitchntx]

Originally Posted by NJSPDER

I see it all as the same basic skill groups, that is why so many cone chasers have success on tracks and vice versa. The application does not in any way limit the skill group.

-Tim

The only data point I can add is ...

I instruct for a group called Texas Driving Experience. It's not a school, it's an experience ... meaning that it's a thrill ride or thrill drive.

The group has a stable of yellow C5 ZO6s and corporate groups rent the cars, Texas Motor Speedway and drivers to ferry passengers around the track in a mock race.

The group of instructors is mostly made up of older guys like me and almost all come from an AX background.

I have been chastised for "getting too close" on numerous occasions. And the sad thing is, I didn't think it was all that close. But these guys would freak a little, especially going through the high banked turns at 130 or 140.

While the skill-set might be very similar, the mind-set is wider gap.

[Sam Strano]

When you wheel to wheel race you do get used to it, like anything else. I'm sure those that sky-dive and have for years don't think it's a big deal anymore, but a newbie sure would.

Road racing requires a level of thinking that time trialing doesn't becaue you have to expect someone to try and late brake you, or you them. You also need a level of trust with the other person because they can wreck you (and we've all seen it).

I'd love to do it, but money, time and the fact I'm a control freak and see a lot of stupid stunts means it's not for me. I do track days, and they are fun, but cannot replace the pure mental game or the rush I get from beating around an autox course @ 100% with no fear of someone else taking me out, or having a brake rotor explode and end up dead (which happened to an instructor in an S2000 just about a month ago on the track).

To each his own and I hope I'm not discounting road-racing. Some very good friends of mine road-race at very high levels these days. Just horses for courses.

[00_STANG_KILLER]

Anyone know how i can get involved in auto x around Bentonville ARkansas?

[NJSPDER]

http://www.scca.com/divisions.aspx?div=mw

You will also want to look into the BMW and Porsche clubs, they usually run a lot of Solo/AutoX events

[zdonner]

Sounds like the civil version of the "AutoX is harder than RR" argument to me. lol

I have no bias, but I would rather have a larger course to drive on than a parking lot. To each his own, at least it's longer than 10 seconds.

[mitchntx]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

I'd love to do it, but money, time and the fact I'm a control freak and see a lot of stupid stunts means it's not for me.

I guess you've been looking in the wrong series.

<knocks on wood>
I've been racing the same 96 TA since 05, had almost zero contact (none that required and paint or body work), have an annual racing budget of $5K (which includes travel, tires, brakes and fuel), competing in 20+ races per year over 6 weekends.

I've had to replace a starter, an alternator, belt, hoses and a power steering pump. I had to have my trans rebuilt after I let a guy drive the car who kept finding reverse while searching for 5th.

Part of maturing as a W2W racer is learning that losing a single corner doesn't mean you'll lose the race. Racing is like a game of chess where you study your opponent looking for opportunities and then capitalizing on his weaknesses. It's also, studying yourself, knowing one's own weaknesses and altering driving style to minimize the risk.

That mental part of racing is the most fascinating to me. It's not the speed or the finesse, it's the joust of one driver against another. If I win the race, great. If not, I had a hard fought battle none-the-less.

I never got that feeling being on track against the clock. If you blow 1 turn, it's over.

Don't get me wrong ... there are guys who are willing to spend it all in a single turn competing for almost nothing but internet bragging rights. You just have to learn who they are and play them differently.

I've been fortunate enough to bring home the Championship trophy 2 years running. For me, that's not important and it's why you never see me bragging about it. Some one has to win and it's just been my turn. The important thing has been the relationships I've built over the last few years.

I had a competitor lose a clutch disc late Saturday afternoon, the last race of the season. While the old clutch was being removed, I had called my wife and she shuttled the replacement clutch to the track which was over 100 miles away. It was my clutch I had as a spare and, while he offered, I never accepted any kind of payment for it or the transport. If the roles were reversed, he'd have done the same thing for me. FWIW ... he out ran me on Sunday.

That's the kind of thing that, for me at least, sets what I do apart from drag racing and my limited experience AXing. I found them both rather "clique-ish", meaning if you consistently ran in the top 5, you got the primo jobs, got straight answers to questions and were given a lot of lee-way that others just weren't granted.

My experience ...

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by 00_STANG_KILLER

Anyone know how i can get involved in auto x around Bentonville ARkansas?

Contact your local regions that's where you start:

Arkansas Region SCCA: http://www.arscca.org/
Kansas City Region SCCA (since I think you are in the NW corner of AR): http://www.kcrscca.org/