TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

I may get beat for this but some one has to say it.

We have found some cars just do not respond to the correct Fuel injector numbers. It may sound stupid and go against every thing every one has ever said BUT it works.

We have had times where we had to lie to the computer about what injectors we have installed. Once we find the numbers the PCM likes the entire damn tune just seems to fall in place.

Here is an example of one car we did. We had stock injectors and tuned to perfection. We added the new injectors and installed the correct numbers for the injectors(38 MSD). The car would not barely run and drivability over all just sucked. Every thing said it was lean. So we started scalling the Injector numbers back. Right around a calculated 34 LPH the car came on line. Once we fine tuned this area the car ran better then it did with Stock injectors and pulled all the way to 7,000 no problems. Drivability was great no issues at all.

I guess the key to this story is Not all injectors will respond the way the stock injectors did to Fuel pressure We have had cars where we had to move the numbers the other way to get them to lean out. It is not always as exact as everyone wants it to be and last I checked GM did not give us the source code and a book to follow

Just remember if all you changed is the injectors and all was well before? You need to adjust the tuning till it is. IF you think the injectors are a problem get them checked. does not cost a ton to get them flowed locally

Enjoy all!

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

The Delphi disc injectors fit the LS1/LS6 fuel rails in such a fashion that there are no issues with leaks. The o-rings seat just fine. http://www.racetronix.com/images/injectors/disc-svo-ev6-a.jpg. The blue plastic color band may be removed for certain applications where lower retainer insertion is preferred. Racetronix supplies grease with all injector sets in order to aid o-ring insertion. It is very important not to nick the o-rings and to make sure the fuel rail and intake bores are 100% clean!

The tuning issues a small handful of people have are a function of their limited tuning experience, hardware and software. Don't blame an injector for your problems when there are literally 1000's in use on LS1 / LS6 vehicles which are running beautifully! Thunder Racing, A&A Corvette, More Performance and many other dealers use the Delphi disc injectors w/o problems! It all comes down to knowing what you are doing! We are willing to help by relaying information if we deem it to be technically sound. Help can also be sought from select Racetronix dealers.

On the topic of fuel pumps... We do NOT manufacture the pumps. Walbro does. Walbro no longer offers a warranty exchange program. All pumps must be sent into Walbro via a vendor for inspection and if they deem the pump to have failed due to manufacture's defect they will replace it. This position stems from Walbro's tests where 98% of all pumps sent back proved not to be defective. Of the 2% that were most had failed due to being run dry, contamination or improper application. Racetronix must concur with their findings as most pumps inspected here helped to back up Walbro's findings. Very few end users have the proper training and / or equipment to properly test a fuel system. We will work with customers to help isolate their fuel pump problems but please keep in mind we get 100's of e-mails per day from people looking for support. Most of these people have limited technical training and diagnostic tools and by our position have no business installing a fuel system which is a very hazardous procedure.

Our #1 problem now is with f-body customers who chose not to remove and flush their fuel tanks and end up contaminating their pumps. This leads to pump motor failure, checkvalve sticking etc. Oddly enough these customers are 100% adamant that the were shipped a defective pump. FYI all Walbro pumps used in our F98 and F99 systems are tested for current, pressure and volume at the factory. That is why residual solvent can be found in the pumps when removed from the box.

BooBsRGR8

A little defensive there buddy????

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

Jack - did you get my e-mail in response to the fuel pump?

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

so to get the injectors to run right i have to put false numbers, telling the computer that they flow less or more? i just dont see how other injectors can function fine with the RIGHT numbers in there and these cant, it jsut doesnt make sense. this is why i dont understand. ok well there might be many people with them working and vendors too, but noone wants to help. Racetronix, i TRIED to email your vendors for some help and didnt get anything back from them. i tried to post like 5 different times for help hoping someone would help but noone could help, just say that they have the problems too.

and for the fuel pump, i did every step you all recommended and did all the recommended trouble shooting also. i have all the equiptment to do so. yet im still getting no help. i made sure everything was spotless before the install, and i made sure the filter was new and lines were cleaned. trust me, the last thing i want to do is take that tank down again. i just wish there was some better trouble shooting, if i could take the pump down and check for the check valve somehow if it functions right, i dont want to have my car down another day. so if you have any pointers on how to check it better or whatever you can do to help, please do so because noone wants to help and noone seems to know anything. even people at racetronix i email and your vendors. so please help, you can email me if you want at budchevy358@yahoo.com

thanks

zo6vetteman2003

iTrader: (1)

Post deleted by zo6vetteman2003
Thanks Jack for taking time to help everyone out.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

also, look closer at my picture, it looks nothing like the one you posted up of your injector that is next to the gm one mine looks like the one next to the ford one. why is there a difference in size like that, and does that matter how much it seats in the rail??

BooBsRGR8

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Not an issue with any of the disc injectors.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

The Delphi injector with two slots is a 42# and the injector with the single slot is the 32#. As long as the o-ring is pushed in far enough so that it compresses to provide a seal you are ok. The injector should not be able to come out from the fuel rail or intake bore far enough to break the seal once it is secured. Always clean the bores 100% and lube the o-rings before insertion. Once done run a pressure test and check for leaks.

BooBsRGR8

Now thats a little better

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

It's about putting in the right numbers not false numbers. The disc injectors are very fast compared to most other types of injectors. It is disappointing why people who are having great success with their tune ups do not to post but then if you don't have a problem then you would not be looking for a thread like this. We don't tune cars here. We sell injectors for Audi's all the way though ZR1's so ECM / PCM specific information is not something we deal with here. This is where our dealers who specialize in certain types of vehicle platforms come into play. We encourage them to support the product but since this is really a tuning related issue specific to your motor / injector combo they might not feel obligated to help. DIY tuning is just that.


Apart from following the GM diagnostic procedure to a 'T' there is no other way to properly diagnose the fuel pump in the tank. Even if we were to supply you with these documents it is unlikely that you would have the proper tools and push-lock fittings to test the leakdown problem. We will just add you to the list of people Racetronix has provided replacement pumps to w/o thorough in-vehicle diagnosis.

A RGA will be generated for your fuel pump by Monday. There is nobody in the office to do this today being a holiday weekend.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Todd,

Racetronix is unaware of the intended application when a customer orders injectors so installation instructions would have to cover hundreds of vehicle types.

Our no return / refund policy on electronic / fuel related items is industry standard due to the nature of the product. We can not be taking returns on injectors because a customer can not figure out their DIY tuning. This would be the equivalent of a vendor taking back a used cam because the customer could not figure out the DIY tuning for its degree of profile change relative to stock. The real question is how difficult could it possibly be to tune these injectors given the fact that there are so many people running around with them in their motors. Maybe what is hard for one person may be a walk in the park for another? How is it that people like 22655TD can get things working perfectly and you can't? Injector problem... c'mon!

You openly admit on this forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zo6vetteman2003

I really don't have the software capability to correct it enough.

Perhaps if you had the experience and resources to tune the injectors properly you might have realized some of the benefits a Delphi disc injector has to offer over a Bosch pintle injector?

Do you have the skills and tools to offer this readership a technically sound and objective thread such as "Racetronix Do or Don't?" considering you are at the beginners end of the learning curve?

I have good reason to be agitated and I have made it quite clear way back on this forum that certain types of posts which come at Racetronix in an angular fashion will be met with a firm response at my end. Some vendors will take the soft touch approach no matter how much BS you throw at them. Not here! I and my employees spend much time burning the midnight oil, manufacturing quality products and providing technical support (holiday weekends too). We do not run a shady operation ripping people off and putting out junk. IMO there is NO justification for what some people deem as appropriate conduct when dealing with a vendor such as Racetronix. Courtesy goes both ways Todd.

Perhaps the time you spent posting here and on Z06 forum in an effort to portray Racetronix policy and product in a negative fashion would have been better spent trying to get the Delphi injectors tuned and the people that are in a position to help, working for you? Why not ask 22655TD what he did instead of making more negative posts?

All this aside, if you still wish to use the Delphi 32's I can see what I can do as far as finding an experienced customer or dealer with helpful information. You would still have to gain access to a proper tuning software package. A better option is to get a professional tune done by an experienced tuning & dyno facility such as Thunder Racing, A&A Corvette, etc. This would be the best approach as tuning the proper PCM tables with a WBO2 is paramount to preserving engine life. Don't bother with mail-order tune-ups.

Jack
Racetronix

On a side note, Racetronix will be putting up a vBulletin tech forum to address specific customer / product needs. This forum will allow us to pool knowledge and experience from our entire customer base so that accurate information can be quickly accessed via qualified dealers / clients. The forum is operational and being structured as I type this. I hope to have it online within the next month depending on when we can get our web server connection upgraded.
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WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

i will take the pump out of the tank and test it myself for things if that is possible. i just really want you to understand i am only looking for help here, although it seems like im pointing fingers i really am not trying to, just want some help.

so the reason these injectors are different is because they react faster? see this is the kinda help i needed! that would explain why the computer would need to be told they are a different injector right?? which means the pulse width would have to be narrower since they react faster which means i should try to put them in as bigger injectors? i was told to put my calculated numbers in and leave it, thank you for stating this.

so in my excel file that calculates the flow rate, i should still leave it on the same kind of curve or linear if its linear just tell the computer they are actually bigger injectors to compensate for the quickness??


and the pump, like i said, i really dont want to send it out and go through getting a new one and paying for one and shipping mine out and all that. i want to be SURE just like you all that this is the problem. as i said before i would much rather keep the pump here and beable to use it. if you could just lead me to some kind of testing i can do to test it i would really appreciate it. im not trying to say you guys suck replace it its your fault, im sure most of your customers dont try and rule EVERYTHING out before calling. i emailed about what would make a car not start right and went through the things you guys told me to check out, i looked up how to check them and came across other possible problems. then i waited for the injectors to see if maybe my old ones had a leak. i just want you to understand im not the average ***** that does one thing or "does" one thing and really doesnt. i would really like to fix this without sending it back to you at all. just please see that.

just let me know, and thanks for the replies

Third Gear

iTrader: (3)

Sorry for butting in to this, but what is logic behind flushing out a gas tank when your current pump is functioning fine? (long story short) I cut a gas tank open that was on a 94 LT1 with 70k miles on it and it was perfectly clean. I couldn't see anything. Is the filter not as fine as stock? Is this because of the gerotor design? Dropping the tank would be a PITA, and I'd like to avoid it.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Typically there should be variables in the PCM that allow you to address the electromechanical delay time of the injectors. The opening time of the injector depends on how quickly the coil's magnetic field can be established in order to push / pull open the valve. There is also the mechanical delay which is a function of the spring pressure, fuel pressure and the control valve's mass. Injector closing time is a function of how long it takes for the coil's magnetic field collapse, spring and fuel pressure. Other factors which impact the injector opening and closing time are voltage, temperature and friction / wear. Please contact the supplier of your tuning device / software to ask them how to access this information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

i just want you to understand im not the average ***** that does one thing or "does" one thing and really doesnt. i would really like to fix this without sending it back to you at all. just please see that.

Due to the complexity of the F99 fuel system it is very hard for your average DIY customer to diagnose it accurately. In order to test the pump's checkvalve you must be able to block the fuel outlet port on the module while monitoring the pressure. The supply line must be intercepted before the metal block where it ties into the return line and the feed to the front of the car. You must power the pump for a split second to generate pressure between the pump's outlet and your cap + pressure gauge. You then monitor the pressure to see if it holds. Perhaps you can take a piece of rubber hose and place your pressure gauge on one end and the other on the metal feedline line by disconnecting it from the 3-way block under the car? Make sure you use high pressure push-lock hose and double hose clamps at each end! You can not let the pump run continuously as the pressure will go through the roof before the safety bypass on the pump fully opens. Best have a 100PSI+ pressure gauge to avoid pinning the needle off the end of the scale.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Peering into a gas tank to determine how dirty is it is is like trying to see how dark your coffee is in your black mug in a dimly lit room.

If you really want to know what is in your tank take a bucket and place a white clean cotton towel over the top. Take the gas tank out, slosh it around while holding it upside down and letting all the fuel drain through the towel into the bucket.

Inner tank conditions are a crap shoot. You don't know what has been pumped into the tank or what is rusting in the fuel system.

The filter sock is rated at 30 microns which is a adequate protection for most types of contamination. Rust particles get pretty small and can pass through the filter sock. The gears in the Walbro pumps are more sensitive to debris passing through them when compared to vane pumps as gear clearance is key to performance. The fuel filter typically filters down to a much smaller particle size (<10 microns) than the filter sock in an injected car.

zo6vetteman2003

iTrader: (1)

Post deleted by zo6vetteman2003.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

Thanks, this is the kinda help I was needing. I don't come to this forum to fight or make a bad post, I come to find information. I just wished I could have found some of this out earlier. Would have saved a lot of frustration.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

so do i take the line off of the whole sending unit, the one that is connected to the pump, and put a gauge on the end of it, power it up FAST and then see if pressure is held? i just want to make sure before i go doing things. might be a stupid question but i always said the dumbest question is the one not asked


and on the injectors, there is a pulse width table. sorry im not too keen on electrical terms, im a mechanical engineer major and took a few classes that had to deal with pulse width and duty cycle but its not my expertice. hp tuners havnet been too helpful with this either, i tell ya i have been going nuts the past few weeks wtih all this. but from what i can see is there is the primary pulse width, the minimum and an adder table. i would imagine i would have to chagne the first 2 to a shorter pulse width so they dont inject as much fuel. this way i can tell the computer i have the right injectors and just modify the time they actually are on to inject fuel.


am i right in assuming this or no?