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Optimal quench?

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Old 01-03-2005, 04:26 AM
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Default Optimal quench?

Ok, lots of discussion on how to determine quench height, but what to shoot for, what is optimal? My heads are AFR 205s milled .024 (62cc), cam is 224/228 114+1. I haven't measured my piston/deck height yet, but have seen anywhere from .005-.010. Cometic makes gaskets in .040 and .045. Below is my quench with both gaskets.

With .045 gasket, if piston is ____ quench will be _____:

.005-.040
.006-.039
.007-.038
.008-.037
.009-.036
.010-.035

With .040 gasket, if piston is ____ quench will be _____:

.005-.035
.006-.034
.007-.033
.008-.032
.009-.031
.010-.030

Isn't optimal quench .035-.040? In that case, wouldn't I be best served with a .045 gasket in any case listed above? Unless my pistons are out of the hole exactly .005 (which I doubt, most have been described as .007-.010). Realisticaly, would there even be a power difference between a quench height of .035 -vs- .040?

Thanks, Shawn
Old 01-03-2005, 06:26 AM
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Need out of hole piston measurement to make a call. Anything else is speculation.

Also once you have all the measurements, just contact AFR and ask them, they also carry other cometic gaskets with different than standard thicknesses. Ideally .038>.040 is the target to reach.

Also keep i mind that you have to use compressed gasket thickness to calculate quench and not uncompressed.
Old 01-03-2005, 03:49 PM
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Good responce Predator-z,proper quench is major key to great power and a less detonation prone set-up even with a high CR.I think this is how Tony did so well with his set-up with the AFR 205's along with degreeing his cam.Some my not realize that milling a head doesn't affect your quench measurment.I thought it was neat that you 2 guys have almost the same number of posts!!
Old 01-03-2005, 04:09 PM
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If you want to get tight on the street-run .030" but anything tighter than that and the piston will kiss the head at high rpm. Most engine builders shoot for .038-.040 like said earlier.
Old 01-03-2005, 04:35 PM
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Yea,how much does a rod stretch when its hot and how much does the cylinder grow when hot?
Old 01-03-2005, 05:03 PM
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I thought we had pretty much covered this in the other posts, but for a proper safe margin, use the .045's. I've never seen a LS-1 piston .005 out. They've all been .007-.010".
Old 01-03-2005, 11:07 PM
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These aluminum blocks grow like a honeymoon ***** when they warm up,I think we may be able to run the squish a little tighter on them.
Old 01-04-2005, 08:52 AM
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.035" is a MINIMUM quench, even with good rods. I run a .040" with billet rods turning over 8000 rpm.
Old 01-04-2005, 09:49 AM
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I was under the impression that .033" was a pretty good number as AFR sells custom .040" Cometics that will yield that (when the piston height is taken into account). In fact Tony uses these on his car which puts out plenty of power.

Here is some info on bolt stretch from ARP:

"If there is a permanent increase of .001" in length, or if there is deformation, the bolt should be replaced. A sample chart is on the following pages." Recommended bolt stretch is in the way of .0006".

I was not able to find anything about connecting rod stretch, though it appears that aluminum (the most elastic material and much more stretchy than the stock LS1 rods) may stretch up to .01".

So it looks like in a worst case scenario- if you over-stretch a rod bolt, and happen to be using an aluminum connecting rod, you will need a safety margin of .011".

With those numbers in mind, running about .030" quench should not pose any interference problems and you'll see a nice mechanical octane increase as well as a small bump in compression.

Feel free to correct any oversights.

Ben
Old 01-04-2005, 10:02 AM
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I found this a while back. Has some good info:

http://speedomotive.com/Building%20Tips.htm

Excessive cylinder pressure will encourage engine destroying detonation with no piston immune to its effects. The goal of performance engine builders should be to build their products with as much detonation resistance as possible. An important first step is to set the assembled quench distance to .035". The quench distance is the compressed thickness of the head gasket plus the deck height, (the distance your piston is down in the bore). If your piston height, (not dome height), is above the block deck, subtract the overage from the gasket thickness to get a true assembled quench distance. The quench area is the flat part of the piston that would contact a similar flat area on the cylinder head if you had .000" assembled quench height. In a running engine, the .035" quench decreases to a close collision between the piston and cylinder head. The shock wave from the close collision drives air at high velocity through the combustion chamber. This movement tends to cool hot spots, average the chamber temperature, reduce detonation and increase power. Take note, on the exhaust cycle, some cooling of the piston occurs due to the closeness to the water cooled head.

If you are building an engine with steel rods, tight bearings, tight pistons, modest RPM and automatic transmission, a .035" quench is the minimum practical to run without engine damage. The closer the piston comes to the cylinder head at operating speed, the more turbulence is generated. Turbulence is the main means of reducing detonation. Unfortunately, the operating quench height varies in an engine as RPM and temperature change. If aluminum rods, loose pistons, (they rock and hit the head), and over 6000 RPM operation is anticipated, a static clearance of .055" could be required. A running quench height in excess of .060" will forfeit the benefits of the quench head design and can cause severe detonation. The suggested .035" static quench height is recommended as a good usable dimension for stock rod engines up to 6500 RPM. Above 6500 RPM rod selection becomes important. Since it is the close collision between the piston and the cylinder head that reduces the prospect of detonation, never add a shim or head gasket to lower compression on a quench head engine. If you have 10:1 with a proper quench and then add an extra .040" gasket to give 9.5:1 and .080" quench, you will create more ping at 9.5:1 than you had at 10:1. The suitable way to lower the compression is to use a dish piston. Dish (reverse combustion chamber), pistons are designed for maximum quench, (sometimes called squish), area. Having part of the combustion chamber in the piston improves the shape of the chamber and flame travel. High performance motors will see some detonation, which leads to preignition. Detonation occurs at five to ten degrees after top-dead-center. Preignition occurs before top-dead-center. Detonation damages your engine with impact loads and excessive heat. The excessive heat part of detonation is what causes preignition. Overheated combustion chamber parts start acting as glow plugs. Preignition induces extremely rapid combustion and welding temperatures melt down is only seconds away!
Old 01-04-2005, 12:37 PM
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I know a fella that was running .026 Q/H. The piston top didn't start to make contact until 70xxrpm. This was with steel rods and tight clearances. I've been revving to 7500 for a while now w/o any sign of contact (.007 above deck/.040 compressed thickness Cometics=.033" Q/H). With one piston @ .008 out, that one cylinder has a .032" Q/H.

I wouldn't go any shorter with Q/H @ 7500. You really need to know where your limiter will be set...
Old 01-04-2005, 12:50 PM
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.035 - .045 for a motor with steel rods.
.045 - .055 for a motor with aluminum rods.
Old 01-04-2005, 03:54 PM
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To add, if someone searches in the future:

With .042 gasket, if piston is ____ quench will be _____:

.005-.037
.006-.036
.007-.035
.008-.034
.009-.033
.010-.032

I read of the .042" gasket here https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/257420-vicni-afr-205-head-only-test-take-2-a.html

but who makes it?
Old 01-04-2005, 06:59 PM
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Cometic can make any size your little heart desires
Old 01-06-2005, 12:09 PM
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If you run a quench area of .030 i will most likely not have enough PtoV (Piston to Valve Clerance). To add your Qunch area all is needed is were your piston is at relative to the deck if its in or out and add your COMPRESSED gasket thickness.
EXAMLPE: .002 in the hole with a .040 gasket will give you .042 of Quench.
Yes you will gain power reason is you will you will create cumbustion chamber turbulance wich will increase efficiency. The more you get the air/fuel charge to mix and swirl the more rapid the combustion process will be.
OH yea KING CRAPBOX stop using Judsons lines anyone who has gone to S.A.M knows that jud is the one who always sais **** like that "to make a bad head look good put it in a small motor" Im not even sure if thats right, whats next your a Big Bore short stroke person "JUST GIVE ME RPM ". Im just messing with you KCB tell Pat Henry Sordia sais whats up. and ill see him at the PRI in Orlando.
Old 01-06-2005, 02:35 PM
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This is interesting stuff. I've built cosworth v6 engines revving to 7k with .025" squish and a zetec with much less but there is less mass in the engine. The cosworths still had light carbon on the piston crown around the squish band so could run tighter clearances. The next 24v cosworth build will be 020". My lsx has been built with under .030" but it's not run yet. I'm confident it will be fine with sharp throttle response. If not, well I've goofed but found my datum point
Old 01-06-2005, 04:25 PM
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Well all combinations are diffrent it all depends on how much lift, steel or allum rods, dome hight or valve notches that any given piston may have. All pistons tend to rock slightly as they transititon through TDC and this rocking motion reduces the piston to head clearance. Smaller diameter pistons with tight piston to wall dont tend to rock as much. Since piston clearance plays such a big part in piston to head clearance, it is possible to run a piston to head clearance much tighter than.040 or so but unless your running NHRA ProStock or Comp Elimminator you should play it safe. but then again it all depends on your combination.
But sure i woud go with the least amount of quench that i can get away with it will let you run some less timing and get some more power by putting less pressure on the piston when its on the compression stroke.
Old 01-06-2005, 04:37 PM
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All these clearences we are using are learned from iron block sbc motors. This aluminum
block grows much more as anyone who has built a solid roller combo knows when they
watch valve lash change when the motor warms up . I think we need to rethink the clearance for this combination.No I am not a SAM student,a Smokey one.
Old 01-06-2005, 04:49 PM
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Does anyone know what type of cast iron is used in older SBCs? And exactly what alloy of aluminum is used in LS1s? If so, we can calculate the difference in thermal expansion. The top of the LS1's rod is 7.936" above the crank centerline, so I think we should calculate the difference in expansion of a 8" long piece of the different metals.
Old 01-06-2005, 06:23 PM
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Keep in mind, though the block is aluminum, the cylinder sleeves aren't...Where the block would expand is where the most heat resides, which is at the top of the block. The sleeves shouldn't permit much (if any) block growth. Any big shop that builds aluminum engines should know how much a block can actually grow. If there was much growth at all, I think we'd see some tighter reccomendations from the builders. I've never been given less than .035".

Also, as the engine is used, carbon builds up on both the piston tops, and chambers (quench areas as well). That can reduce your Q/H a good bit. That's probably the reason GM doesn't opt for the more effecient, tighter quench approach from the factory. With a .052 thick gasket and say .007 above deck (average), that's a .045" Q/H which leaves some room for carbon build-up (cheap gas, rich tune, ect.). Just an assumtion though...


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