Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Although many of you could care less, I’ve been wanting to try this for years: Make 100 rwhp over stock, but be completely stock sounding and acting to myself and the general public. That meant no lopey idling cams, no tinny sounding headers, no loud cat-backs, no crappy gas mileage and 100% emissions compliance. I wanted to have my cake and eat it too. I was going to use a lot of smarts and a lot of money to do it.

Geoff and Angie from Thunder Racing had the answer, their CheaTR (cheater) package. By utilizing AFR 205 heads with 60cc chambers and a specially ground cam designed to run well with stock exhaust, the package met all goals: Bone stock idle, bone stock exhaust sounds, bone stock NVH, bone stock fuel economy, emissions compliance, but 395 rwhp and 376 rwtq. The cam specs out at 214/230 .600/.578 117LSA. Basically, it mimicks how GM grinds their cams to run with stock exhaust. Think of it as a LS6 cam on steroids. It’s even pretty close to the new LS7 cam (211/230).

Bone stock, my car dynoed around 300 rwhp. Since I purchased the car last year, I’ve added an MTI lid, ported throttle body, LS6 intake, ASP UD pulley, 160 degree stat, SLP Dual/Dual catback, and HP Tuners tweaks. As delivered to Thunder Racing, my TA made 335 rwhp and 339 rwtq. Getting additional ponies with no downsides wasn’t going to be easy.

Click here for the before/after dyno sheet: http://www.guerragroup.com/2000TA_dyno1

As you can see from the dyno sheet, the power pulls strong to 6800 rpm. Ever see a 214 cam with choked-up exhaust pull that well? We also tried a pull with 100 hp jets in the newly installed NX MAF kit. We got 494 rwhp through completely closed exhaust. Too bad the clutch slipped, LOL.

Click here for the nitrous dyno sheet: http://www.guerragroup.com/2000TA_dyno4

Special thanks go to Shane and Stu at Thunder Racing for their expert care in the installation. Anybody with a C5/C6, GTO or Cadillac CTS-V should take an especially hard look at the package from Thunder Racing as it adds serious horsepower without compromising one bit of stockness.

pdd

iTrader: (3)

wow. great job on the stealth

ArcticFormula

Sweet numbers! I kind of went a similar route: out of box 205 AFRs, 222-222 .581 .581 xer 115lsa, and vig 2800. 376rwhp - 361rwtq
Have stock manifolds and a GMMG catback.
I'm considering QTP longtubes maybe next January. Anyway congrats on the setup, the car should haul ***!

blkZ28spt

That is badass. While a ***** out heads/cam setup can make 50-65 rwhp over that I have to say that I would love to have your setup on a car that looks like mine. Z28 with sport package ground effects and all badges removed....

ss rally red

iTrader: (8)

That is basically maximizing all the parameters of a bone stock motor and I am glad someone did it!! It's not my cup of tea but It's great to see someone go this route and have great results!! Congrats and props to you!!!!

blkZ28spt

I just saw that it made 494/510 on a 100 shot. That's bitchin.

fasteddyss

iTrader: (1)

Fantastic!!!

I am glad to see someone do this. I had thought of going that route myself, skipping headers and going with stock exhaust, a cam and ??

I suppose the main difference is cost? Headers vs nice heads?

I got great power out of my headers but fine tuning the fit on the y-pipe and loss of ground clearance makes me think about it again.

Great job!!!

Jared H

iTrader: (1)

Any idea how well that cam would work on stock heads?

Thx

jrp

iTrader: (16)

bad *** Patrick . anymore info your willing to give on the cam specs? advertised and .200 duration, icl, ect.

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

those numbers are badass. to have the same behavior as stock must be really nice for a change. my Spec3 and 9" w/full spool just doesn't really behave all that well sometimes......

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, I have been waiting on your results. Could you please answer a few questions for me

How well did this combo idle with the factory tune? Any surging at a quick stop or hot start surging with stock tune?

Did you have to delete(turn off) the rear O2 exhaust sensors? Any check engine codes?

Is the valvetrain noisier with the shorter duration, .600 lift cam?

amwellls1

Nice numbers congrats

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

The cam would work great with stock heads. Just consider it a ballsier version of the LS6 cam or the LPE GT2-3 cam.
I have all of the cams specs (.006, .050, .200 with associated valve events and centerlines), but I'm not sure if Thunder Racing is ready for other vendors to copy their work just yet. That's is entirely Geoff's call.
We used factory timing tables, factory A/F ratios (with some minor tweaking), stock idle. The biggest change was raising the rev limiter. We were conservative at 6800, but in all honesty, the cam would have easily pulled well past 7000. There was a little shake at dead cold before tuning. Taking some fuel out at low temps fixed that. Hot starts are a breeze. No surging whatsoever. I can lug the cam down to 700-800 rpm in 5th or 6th no problem, just like stock.
I turned off the AIR pump and EGR valve because they cluttered the underhood look. Tuning eliminated the worry about codes.
Surprisingly, the valvetrain noise is hardly different at all. I was really worried about this point, but to my pleasure (and prediction), the lack of headers keeps the valvetrain clatter from being amplified.

jrp

iTrader: (16)

anyway you can PM the info, im curious of the lob profiles and VE's as compared to other TR cam cards i got and spec'd toward a great intake setup and restrictive exhaust.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

One interesting side note was the back-pressure issue of the cat-back. Thinking we might be leaving some hp on the table, we dropped the cat-back after the y pipe (since I don't have a cutout) and we made the SAME power. This proved to me 2 things. ONE, that the SLP Dual Dual is a good flowing catback and TWO, that the choke point of the exhaust must be in the manifolds. In the past, I've gutted the cats on these set-ups before and gotten 0 hp. So even though these '00-02 manifolds are pretty good, they're still a far cry from headers, LOL! But man, do they sound GOOD!!

a98ws6

iTrader: (48)

Nice to see a small cam making great power! A friend of mine has a 02 WS6 with just a GMMG, little T1 cam, and a lid and made 380rwhp! Still had stock manifolds/heads and only around 10K miles!

Spellbound

Congrats on the #'s

I was/have been curious as to how much power you could make and remain smog legal. I wonder how much it would make with lower compression and a smog legal blower??

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

As long as you kept the overlap in check, I would think you could easily exceed 500 rwhp with a similar cam, lower compression and an intercooled blower. Heck, we hit 494 rwhp with little .052 jets. Had I invested in a better clutch and more fuel pump, 550 rwhp would have been a piece of cake.

Brandon Boomhauer

iTrader: (10)

Wow nice #s,
Seems like an easy way to make some $ races too

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

Very nice results with factory manifold. HOLY SMOKES!!!

52172

iTrader: (2)

wow great numbers that must be the highest dyno numbers with the stock manifolds period! My setup is similar except I have JBA shorties and no cats and an slp y pipe, but I only make 20 more rwhp which should be expected I guess. My cam is a 222/224 .581 114 xer lobe comp cam custom grind.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

In the search for more quiet, emissions-legal power, what does everybody think about adding a 90mm LSX intake and TB? Do you think it would give me gains? Keep in mind I have AFR 205 heads and a .600 lift cam that revs easily to 6800 rpm.

52172

iTrader: (2)

I think you would probibly pick up around 10-15 more rwhp with the 90/90 since your car makes power up to 6800. The 90/90 doesn't shine until above 5000 rpms. It must be the 230 exhaust duration that helps your car make power above 5800 with the stock exhaust as my car peaks at 5800 and starts to lose power pretty fast above 5800. By 6400 I am down 10 rwhp or maybe a little more. I wonder if a tune with ls1 edit would help make power above 5800 or or do you think nothing will help, since my cam is a 222/224 any thoughts?

d james

have you thought about porting out the stock manifolds to get a few more ponies? I've read a few guys got 5-9 horses, and there is a company that ports them out and claims 10 rwhp. I myself living in California have very little choice but to run a small cam and port them out, can't wait to see what I can get out of them.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

The most critical item in allowing my motor to pull cleanly to 6800 rpm is the later intake closing point of 43 degrees ABDC. If your cam was ground +4, your intake closing point would be 41 degrees ABDC, making your motor peak about 200 rpm less than mine. Not sure if tuning would help. The motor made best power and torque with stock timing tables and only very small tweaks to the A/F ratios. No doubt the earlier exhaust opening point and longer duration helped my motor run well with logs, I'm just not sure if it would have the same benefit to your much less restrictive exhaust.

PREDATOR-Z

How would that cam do with MACs and True duals (Random cats, Magnaflow X, over axle into 2 (14" Magnaflow muffs)?
Would you say another 10>15 rwhp?

What is the TR reference name or # on that cam?

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

That kind of exhaust would make 15-20 on a stock motor. I think on my motor they'd be worth at least that or more. Probably more like 20-25.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

I've considered trying the Extrude Hone process, but I'm not sure if the gains would be worth the expense. Does anybody know what it costs? BTW, check out the photo and see if you think there's any hidden power in these babies:

bad2000ss

iTrader: (6)

Very impressive numbers for the set up. Thunder Racing should deffinately market this package. Heads, Camshaft, Intake Manifold, Throttle Body, Lid, and a Tune.

I'm sure there are a ton of people in California that would love to make 400rwhp and not have to touch any of the smog equipment.

Hell, I'm out $200 every two years to smog my car and that's the friendly discount rate. God have mercy if I ever get pulled over.

Thunder should call it "Beat the California Smog **** Package" and sell the crap out of them.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

LOL, you're right. To make this package truly stealthy for the California guys or for the street racers, Thunder Racing can flat mill the AFR logo off the passenger side head or sell a decorative plate to cover the AFR logo. Since the AFR 205s are CARB certified, this may not be a problem for the smog police, but the true street racers may find value in the "stock" appearance.

Another_User

Normally, I wouldn't care...but that kicks butt. Good job!

Jeffs99SS

Very cool setup!!! I definately see that combo taking some money at the street races. You'd have everyone looking for a bottle for sure.

tuffluck

iTrader: (4)

that is definitely awesome. on a car with a lid and a cutout that dyno'd 323/335, what would you expect that cam to do?

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Thunder Racing plans on installing the CheaTR cam in a 6 speed F-Body next week that has a lid, pulley and catback. I look forward to seeing the gains.

UMD_Jesse

iTrader: (6)

Have you touched your short block? i.e ARP rod bolts, etc?

My2kz28

iTrader: (1)

holy crap man!@! Makes me wanna do it to my ls1, but i think i blew my disguise with the loudmouth!

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Negative. 100% stock including stock oil pump and timing chain.

d james

this place has CNC ported manifolds and claim 10 rwhp http://www.hinsonsupercars.com/ they don't extrude hone, so I bet that would bring a solid 10rwhp. Its to bad that shorties are so expensive, but home porting isn't. That company said they got there power from the 01-02 manifolds, so if there claim is true, those stockers aren't bad at all.

MNR-0

its about time people started recognising the potential of smaller cams that match the comoponents of the entire car, not installing bad-*** 230+ cams to force power into a total package that works against it. Well done. And this is exactly he kind of stuff that will make big cam hi-stall drivers cry.

No idle issues
Emissions compliant
Cheaper by half
Smooth and responsive
More economical
Killer times at the track (close to 12.0 I believe)

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

That's the great part. If I ever get "froggy", I can turn on the bottle and lay a lot more hurt on if I need to. Now as cool as this NX MAF kit is that I also have, I might convert it to a hidden "dry" kit down the road for total stealth, haha.