AFR 205s, Futral F13 cam, Fast 90/90, M6 Where's the HP & Tq? graph here
03-07-2008, 07:47 PM
#1
AFR 205s, Futral F13 cam, Fast 90/90, M6 Where's the HP & Tq? graph here Hey guys, thanks for looking.
Here's the story:
This car previously had in the first pull (red pull) some TEA stg.1 heads milled to allow for about 11:1 (or something equiv to cleaned up milled factory castings), the same F13 cam, LTs, ORY, open cutout, ls6 intake, 12-bolt rear. He had hoped for more off of this setup.
Fast forward a few and he bolts on some AFR 205s after having them milled .018, Fast 90 lightly ported intake / Fast 90 TB, and an aluminum driveshaft.
All the car would make was 5 more RWHP and actually lost tq down low. Every cylinder is firing (as seen in the smooth graph too) and the tune seemed to matter little. Tried every AFR along the way from 12.6 to 13.2 and timing from 26 all the way to 30 deg and it made within 1-2hp of this each time.
The car has 57K miles on it, target AFR (red line) is at 12.5, I forgot to move it around before printing
Here's the story:
This car previously had in the first pull (red pull) some TEA stg.1 heads milled to allow for about 11:1 (or something equiv to cleaned up milled factory castings), the same F13 cam, LTs, ORY, open cutout, ls6 intake, 12-bolt rear. He had hoped for more off of this setup.
Fast forward a few and he bolts on some AFR 205s after having them milled .018, Fast 90 lightly ported intake / Fast 90 TB, and an aluminum driveshaft.
All the car would make was 5 more RWHP and actually lost tq down low. Every cylinder is firing (as seen in the smooth graph too) and the tune seemed to matter little. Tried every AFR along the way from 12.6 to 13.2 and timing from 26 all the way to 30 deg and it made within 1-2hp of this each time.
The car has 57K miles on it, target AFR (red line) is at 12.5, I forgot to move it around before printing
03-07-2008, 08:23 PM
#2
Hey Steve, no input for ya, but a lil story. We installed Lts and a 3 inch y on a 06 GTO, and gained zero HP and zero TQ!!!!
Sometimes we just get weird ones. Doesnt make it any easier on us, or you, or anyone in this biz.
On yours maybe the TEAs were that good? Hard to believe but possible.
Sometimes we just get weird ones. Doesnt make it any easier on us, or you, or anyone in this biz.
On yours maybe the TEAs were that good? Hard to believe but possible.
03-07-2008, 08:50 PM
#3
Well, not sure but I have a 224/230 Comp XE-R, 11.2:1, AFR 205's, Mamo FAST 90/NW 90 with a PY3400 Yank and a 3.70 9" and it made 402/367 unlocked. I think one reason my torque was a bit low is because of the 1 7/8" tubes I have on it for the bigger supercharged engine I plan to install later.
Seems many others get around 430RWHP with this combo. My car went 113.5mph in the 1/4, so thing are in line. I hope to eclipse 116 with a different stall(SS4000) in the spring. My 60's were only 1.81-1.82 and it was wasn't from spinning.
I tried the A/F in the same areas along with timing changes similar to what you listed. The changes is HP were minimal and no matter what I tried that was all it would do.
Other mods are a catted Y, Magnaflow cat back, SLP air box/stk MAF. If you figure it out let me know what you did. Good luck!
Seems many others get around 430RWHP with this combo. My car went 113.5mph in the 1/4, so thing are in line. I hope to eclipse 116 with a different stall(SS4000) in the spring. My 60's were only 1.81-1.82 and it was wasn't from spinning.
I tried the A/F in the same areas along with timing changes similar to what you listed. The changes is HP were minimal and no matter what I tried that was all it would do.
Other mods are a catted Y, Magnaflow cat back, SLP air box/stk MAF. If you figure it out let me know what you did. Good luck!
03-07-2008, 08:57 PM
#4
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Not saying this is the problem,but i saw one that the pushrods were too long and as the lifters pumped up at higher speeds the valves wouldnt completely shut killing off cyl pressure and killing power,seen the same thing happen with sbc's when the valves were adjusted too tight
03-07-2008, 09:05 PM
#5
You guys forgot that shop rag in the airbox....
Something is up....the FAST alone should have made more power upstairs.
I worry about "lightly ported" because Ive seen improperly ported FAST manifolds make less than untouched intakes but making an assumption the intake isnt the cause, if it were mine I would do a leak down on all eight holes, then assuming they were reasonably close I would do a cranking compression check to verify cylinder pressure was inline with that static CR and camshaft.
Assuming leakdown less than 10% and cylinder pressure in the 180-200 PSI range then things start to get interesting in your search for the missing power. I'll have to think on that one while you guys check the preliminaries first (leakdown and CCR)
Tony
PS....Feel free to drop me a line at AFR if you need some input. My number is (661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Something is up....the FAST alone should have made more power upstairs.
I worry about "lightly ported" because Ive seen improperly ported FAST manifolds make less than untouched intakes but making an assumption the intake isnt the cause, if it were mine I would do a leak down on all eight holes, then assuming they were reasonably close I would do a cranking compression check to verify cylinder pressure was inline with that static CR and camshaft.
Assuming leakdown less than 10% and cylinder pressure in the 180-200 PSI range then things start to get interesting in your search for the missing power. I'll have to think on that one while you guys check the preliminaries first (leakdown and CCR)
Tony
PS....Feel free to drop me a line at AFR if you need some input. My number is (661)257-8124 Ext. 109
03-07-2008, 09:21 PM
#6
Not saying this is the problem,but i saw one that the pushrods were too long and as the lifters pumped up at higher speeds the valves wouldnt completely shut killing off cyl pressure and killing power,seen the same thing happen with sbc's when the valves were adjusted too tight
I don't know what locking the converter would be worth, but the 113.5 mph tells the story.
I will look at the cranking compression, this is something I did not do. It will be a few weeks until I get it out for the spring. My engine only has 3800 original miles on it so I would assume its good unless my valves are leaking. Also, degreed the cam in at 113
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03-07-2008, 11:51 PM
#9
Yeah compression and leakdown are on the schedule already.
No, but they only had about 500-1K miles on them. They were a part of a setup with a D1sc (yes they are smalll chambers) where the owner almost immeadiately wanted a bigger forged motor and bigger blower since he wanted to push the bottom end past what is "safe". They were checked and cleaned up a machine shop and milled.
It's crazy to look at the overlay of the two entirely different setups...
No, but they only had about 500-1K miles on them. They were a part of a setup with a D1sc (yes they are smalll chambers) where the owner almost immeadiately wanted a bigger forged motor and bigger blower since he wanted to push the bottom end past what is "safe". They were checked and cleaned up a machine shop and milled.
It's crazy to look at the overlay of the two entirely different setups...
03-07-2008, 11:52 PM
#10
The intake should be fine, it just amounted to smoothing the sides of the intake runners. Tony I beleive he spoke to you via PM and was very cautious as a result and did very little. Thanks for the offer of the phone support, I guess it's a holding pattern waiting on leakdown and compression.
03-08-2008, 11:45 AM
#11
No problem....
If you guys get nowhere on the leakdown and CCR check I would be more than happy to look over the heads as well as the intake manifold for that matter. I would just ask you cleaned them up as best you could before you sent them. Obviously that means some downtime and time spent breaking down the set-up but if your up for it I have no problem helping out.
Just an FYI and something to consider as a last resort....
Tony
If you guys get nowhere on the leakdown and CCR check I would be more than happy to look over the heads as well as the intake manifold for that matter. I would just ask you cleaned them up as best you could before you sent them. Obviously that means some downtime and time spent breaking down the set-up but if your up for it I have no problem helping out.
Just an FYI and something to consider as a last resort....
Tony
03-08-2008, 01:07 PM
#12
No problem....
If you guys get nowhere on the leakdown and CCR check I would be more than happy to look over the heads as well as the intake manifold for that matter. I would just ask you cleaned them up as best you could before you sent them. Obviously that means some downtime and time spent breaking down the set-up but if your up for it I have no problem helping out.
Just an FYI and something to consider as a last resort....
Tony
If you guys get nowhere on the leakdown and CCR check I would be more than happy to look over the heads as well as the intake manifold for that matter. I would just ask you cleaned them up as best you could before you sent them. Obviously that means some downtime and time spent breaking down the set-up but if your up for it I have no problem helping out.
Just an FYI and something to consider as a last resort....
Tony
That's more than generous of you Tony, thanks a lot and we will keep this in mind. I will udpate when I have one myself.
-Steve
03-09-2008, 07:16 PM
#14
A leak down test on every hole is actually a more telling tale on an engines ability to seal combustion pressure and make power. If the leakdown is soft coupled with the soft cranking #'s things are starting to make more sense. I would also have you cc the head you removed to verify how small that chamber was. Your new combo may be light on compression which makes sense looking at the comparison graghs you posted.
Tony
03-09-2008, 07:26 PM
#15
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Hey guys, it's my car, I'm running 63cc with .040" cometic head gasket. On the compression test, the water temp was up to 190 and I have an oil temp gauge in the car and oil temp got up to about 150. By time I finished #8 (last one we had to do), the oil temp was down to about 100 and the water temp was about at 120. The oil temp usually runs at 210 with the car fully hot, wouldn't that help the numbers if it were higher?
Last edited by Hardtop00SS; 03-09-2008 at 07:33 PM.
03-09-2008, 08:22 PM
#16
Hey guys, it's my car, I'm running 63cc with .040" cometic head gasket. On the compression test, the water temp was up to 190 and I have an oil temp gauge in the car and oil temp got up to about 150. By time I finished #8 (last one we had to do), the oil temp was down to about 100 and the water temp was about at 120. The oil temp usually runs at 210 with the car fully hot, wouldn't that help the numbers if it were higher?
03-09-2008, 08:29 PM
#17
Hey guys, it's my car, I'm running 63cc with .040" cometic head gasket. On the compression test, the water temp was up to 190 and I have an oil temp gauge in the car and oil temp got up to about 150. By time I finished #8 (last one we had to do), the oil temp was down to about 100 and the water temp was about at 120. The oil temp usually runs at 210 with the car fully hot, wouldn't that help the numbers if it were higher?
The cranking compression test really doesnt have to be warm....its much more forgiving than a leakdown test which is better done when the engine is warm for slightly lower readings. The thing is you can have a cylinder that shows 10 lbs. down on a cranking test have a 40% leakdown in that hole (bad obviously) but wouldnt know it unless you actually did a leak test. Its better to leak all eight cylinders and only check cranking on a couple (versus the other way around) assuming the leak was good across the board and reasonably close. If it were they would all pump very similar cranking pressure which at that point is more related to cam overlap and static CR numbers knowing the leakdown is good (assuming you already checked that).
Perhaps others with an exact or similar set-ups could chime in on their cranking compression numbers but for comparison sake my 383 at around 11 to 1 has 190 lbs, and it has the equivalent of a 235/241 hydraulic on a 114 LSA. My former 346 had slightly more compression @ 11.4 to one (and a smaller 224 cam) so it naturally pumped higher....around 215 PSI.
Tony
03-09-2008, 08:31 PM
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03-09-2008, 09:01 PM
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well I'm going off what I read. Milling .006" equivalates to 1cc taken off the head.
I'm assuming I need to do a leakdown test to confirm that there's no issue with the engine. It will be a few weeks before I get to that though, I'm leaving this thursday to go to Sebring for the races, after that, I'll do it.
I'm assuming I need to do a leakdown test to confirm that there's no issue with the engine. It will be a few weeks before I get to that though, I'm leaving this thursday to go to Sebring for the races, after that, I'll do it.