chucky2

First, I'd just like to say Hi! from over at BobIsTheOilGuy Forums, which is where I started originally searching out this problem:

What type of fluid can reliably be put in a T-56 transmission?

I've searched through every thread here at LS1.com (try doing a search for "Redline OR Synchromesh OR Dexron OR Dextron" and you'll see what I've looked at) and I can summarize what I've read in the following:

Some people say that running synthetic fluid in the T-56 will make the blocker rings fail in 98-00, but not 01-on...

Some people say that running synthetic doesn't hurt at all...

Some people have been running Redline D4 ATF with seemingly no problems, even though the D4 ATF is a synthetic (but is recommend where Dexron III is called for)....

Others run Mobil-1 ATF with mixed results....

Some run (and it pains me to say this) Honda ATF-Z1 and have liked it....

Others run GM Synchromesh PN# 12345349 (rumored to be semi-synthetic) and like it....

And others run the cheapest Dexron III found at their local auto store and are OK with it.

The thing is, GM isn't going to take the time or effort (meaning $$$) to actually give a straight answer after testing some popular non-OE fluids, so they'll just keep saying run Dexron III or the Synchromesh...

and no company is actually going to bash their own products, so asking Redline if the D4 ATF is OK to use doesn't do much use (even though Dave their was very helpful and quick to respond)...

Couple this with the fact that as long as things aren't worse after someone puts anything else than regular dino Dexron III in that person probably isn't going to complain/or they'll swear that it's better to justify their purchase...

I've broken down the question I'd like to ask that should end this debate (is anyone still reading at this point :

Who here has actually had a blocker ring fail in their T-56, regardless of what oil or year the F-body is/was?

If these synthetics or non-Dexron III fluids are so bad for the blocker rings, then there should definitely be people posting here that they've had them fail.

Please remember that driving like a nut and nuking the synchros on your own and then blaming it on the oil doesn't count, lets "keep it real."

Thanks for reading this (long) post of mine!

Chuck

P.S. I've started a thread exactly like this one over at LS1.com. Since I started it before this one, there already are a few responses there.

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

I don't know what you'd classify as blocker ring "failure".

That would be kind of like saying "brake pad failure" to stop the car, but on a much smaller scale. Essentially, the blocker rings are small clutches, that grab hold of the gear, and attempt to keep it synchronized with the shafts. A "failure" would occur when either their pad material wore thin, or they were glazed over.

There is an obvious difference between the earlier and later blocker ring pads. The earlier ones look harder, and have slots. The later ones look more 'fibrous', with no slots. You can't buy the earlier ones any more (I don't think they're being made any more). Supposedly the newer are better anyway.

Now, if you dump your fluid and see a bunch of black crap in there, then yeah, that's probably wear on the blocker rings. But will you spot it as a failure, or just wear?

Tough one to call. Me, my trans has synchromesh and DexronIII in it right now. That GM stuff, at 10 bux a quart, is almost too spendy for me... I noticed Penzoil has a synchromesh fluid for $5/qt, so I may try it next time. But then again, next time a tranny goes in, it won't have but the 5-6 blocker rings in it.

Andrew

chucky2

NOTE: I tried to post this last night, but I think the phone company was having problems. I couldn't connect to either of the two ISP's I have access to, and everything is fine tonight. Who knows?

Camaroholic- Thanks for the reply!

I'd classify failure as any fluid induced degredation of the blocker ring(s), not due to "spirited" driving, low or high fluid levels, or something else breaking in the transmission and tearing one up.

Simply put, it is plain that the fluid caused the blocker ring(s) to go bad.

From the way so many refer to the "paper things" or "paper lined", or "organic" in 98-00 F-body's and how synthetic is bad for them and to never run a synthetic or "it's bad, don't do it", I thought for sure someone here would have had them fail after saying screw it, I'll run the synthetic anyways...

Interesting point...and the answer is I just don't know. If the dino fill that was in from the factory hasn't been replaced for a few 10,000 miles, then even if there was 0 wear on the blocker rings, it could still run out black, just from shearing alone.

I've never done this (well, when we changed it to the B&M stuff, but I don't remember what color the old fluid was. The B&M was blue, so if/when we drain it out (it's still up to him if he wants to do this or not), we'll see what color its turned to.

So, you've mixed some Synchromesh and dino Dexron III. Can I ask why, just to experiment or for a specific reason?

What have the results been?

I think $40 every 15,000-20,000 or so (hell, probably can go much longer even) isn't really too much to pay when you think about extending the life of the T-56. If the added benefit is improved shift feel, then it's even more beneficial.

Sorry, I'm not a gearhead....Are you saying the only blocker ring your going to have installed is the 5-6 one? What is the benefit of that?

Thanks again for the reply. We've got 25+ views here can't remember exactly how many), so there's definitely some interest!

Come on people, I know there are a good number of people on this Forum running synthetic in your T-56:

What have been your results?

Thanks again!

Chuck

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

LOL my tranny comes out every other month it seems. I'm always draining / refilling it. I ended up with a quart of the $10 stuff on the floor last time. I didn't want to drop more $$ in it, so I put a quart of the cheap stuff in. Problem solved.

My car is a work in progress, always something going on, especially tranny related.

I rebuilt my trans in December (again). But I have a second tranny that is getting pro-shifted. Pro shifting removes the blocker rings. They weld a large toothed ring in place of the little nubby slider engagement teeth. Allows for fast shifts, but it's not very streetable (from what I've heard). 1st is not pro-shifted, but it gets no blocker ring. 2nd thu 4th are pro shifted, and 5th and 6th are normal.

Should allow me to shift very quickly at the track. My trannies have always seemed notchy, even after rebuilding and using synchromesh. Pro shifting is the last step before I shelve all of it and throw an auto in the car.

-Andrew

Bugsquawsher

iTrader: (1)

I have rebuilt 10 or so trannies in the last year.
Each person ran some different Brand of fluid.
None of the blocker rings had failed. IE the friction surface fallin off.
They were worn out from all the abuse the Austin guys put on thier car.
You should be good with just about anything.
I personally run the Mobile one.
No problem with my O1
Tom

chucky2

Thanks for the replies!

Camaroholic- LOL! I had a feeling it was something like that, but coming from over at BITOG where some people like to mix their own brews of oil, I just had to make sure.

Thanks for clearing up the whole leaving out the blocker ring stuff...it's really interesting to see what can be done with a design to make it perform different for different applications.

Would you mind posting what type of fluid they recommend for this Pro transmission? It seems like it is for strictly abusive situations , so it'll be interesting on what the shop recommends, i.e. something heavier to withstand the abuse (like Redline MTL) or something lighter and just changed more frequently.

Bugsquawsher- Thanks for the info!

Can you remember if any of them specifically ran a synthetic fluid, and if so, which one?

Also, what do you recommend they use after you rebuild them?

Thanks again for all the feedback!

Chuck

chucky2

Just wanted to update this thread to reflect an update at the thread over at LS1.com.

Thanks!

Chuck

Bugsquawsher

iTrader: (1)

Bugsquawsher- Thanks for the info!

Can you remember if any of them specifically ran a synthetic fluid, and if so, which one?

Also, what do you recommend they use after you rebuild them?

Thanks again for all the feedback!

Chuck[/QUOTE]


I pretty much leave it up to the Owner.
I put Mobile one in my car.
So I guess I recommend it.
I guess My tranny has about 17000 miles on mobile one since the rebuild.
About 2 weeks ago I put in some ZMAX.
it took it a coulpe of days of driving , But the tranny actually does shift smoother.Especially the cold morning stiffness I see some people complain about.
Mine wasnt' that bad in cold weather But you could definately tell it was cold.
Now its the same no matter the temp.
So this is not a " I heard somewhere" I am actually using this stuff
Oh and I build trannies too on the side
Tom

chucky2

Bugsquawsher- Thanks for the update!

Since you have an '01, you've got the Carbon blocker rings, which means you should be safe.

Can you remember if any of them specifically ran synthetic, or they just didn't say.

When you rebuilt, you probably used the carbon blocker rings, so it wasn't an issue after the rebuild...I'm wondering if you know if any of them were running the synthetic before, in their stock T-56?

Never heard of ZMAX, what is it and what is it marketed to do?

Thanks again!

Chuck

Bugsquawsher

iTrader: (1)

I Think everyone down here uses some sort of synthetic.
I have never seen the friction material missing on any of them.

Zmax is one of them Oil Additives.
Heres the site, www.zmax.com
Tom

chucky2

Bugsquawsher- Thanks for the reply back again!

I hate to keep bugging you, but you don't recall the years of the T-56's you worked on do you?

Were any of them 98-00 T-56's, or were they all 01 and up ones?

It is just amazing that so so many take it as faith that synthetic will "kill" a 98-00 T-56, yet not really any people here claiming that their blocker rings failed with use of a synthetic.

Am pretty far into being convinced this is an Urban Legend among the F-Body T-56 community, unless people start posting contrary to the fact.

Also, searched a little on BOTIG on ZMax...

Z-Max Hoax

Z-Max

Metal conditioners?

Your cold weather shifting may have improved, but at what cost?

Might want to think about changing that fluid out......

(of course, you've got the tools and knowhow to rebuild if it breaks, so your a good guinea pig!)

Thanks again!

Chuck

Bugsquawsher

iTrader: (1)

If you go to Zmax's site
They actually address the lawsuit.

95 Formula

iTrader: (2)

I just put mine back in the car like that. Drove it alittle on the street and just waiting for the weather to clear up to take it to the track. Driving on the street would take some getting use too. But make a WOT shift and you feel NOTHING between the gears. Its smooth as butter.

chucky2

Thanks everyone for the continued interest!

Bugsquawsher- I don't know man, with the explanation they have their in regards to the FCC, it really sounds like what they have is some sort of cleaner that is thinner than the oil (i.e. if you add this to your crankcase, your oil will be thinned out) it is being added to.

Thinner oil = more horsepower
Cleaner (whatever type it is) = cleaner running engine

One that that would be interesting would be to mix ZMAX thouroughly with an oil that has a known VOA over at BITOG and send in a VOA of that, just to see how much it's thinned out (if any).

With the wording in their explanation of the FTC litigation, I'm really not so sure I'd trust it still.

You could add kerosene to your oil and it would have the same effect...doesn't mean it's good.

Actually, since you mentioned it shifter easier, that may be exactly what is happening: Thinned the trans fluid out (in your case Mobil-1) and it makes it shift easier.

Like I said before...At least if it does do harm to your trans, you (unlike most people) have the know-how and tools to be able to fix it.

95 Formula- I understant (I think) about what you guys are doing (and why), but won't this be detrimental to the life you your T-56?

Or, is this something you guys conciously decide to do in the quest for speed?

Thanks again for the replies!

Chuck

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

I ran it in my '00 C5, Amsoil ATF, full synthetic. It shifted MUCH smoother, less notchy and had no ill effects for at least 10K miles until I sold the car.

Brains

iTrader: (7)

I've had the best luck with CHEAP O'Reilly Dexron III ATF ... I've ran a couple "premium" oils, but the blockers spin up fastest with the cheap fluid.

chucky2

Thanks for the comments!

CANNIBAL- Thanks for the feedback!

What is a C5, is that a 5-spd manual?

Brains- Thank you also for the feedback!

The O'Riely's is no doubt rebadged Dexron III ATF from some major manufacturer, too bad we didn't have a VOA on it to compare to the dino Synchromesh's.

Do you remember which "premium" oils you tried?

Also, did you experience blocker ring failure with them?

Thanks again for the continued interest, we're really starting to get enough feedback where we can get some kind of consensus on the effects of synthetic fluid in the T-56, especially on the blocker rings.

Thanks again!

Chuck

95 Formula

iTrader: (2)

Its a conscious decision in the quest for speed. It would take some getting use to on the street but I could see driving it on a regular basis. Took it to the track this weekend and it performed flawlessly.

Bugsquawsher

iTrader: (1)

A C5 is a Vette

chucky2

Thanks for the continued interest guys!

So a C5 is a Vette...does this indicate the revision, like the new revision with the integrated headlights will be the C6, or am I ?

Are you saying the C5 has a T-56 in it also, or does it have a different trans?

Also, if it does, did it have carbon or paper lined blocker rings?

Thanks again!

Chuck