Comparison of Trick Flow 220 As-Cast and 215 heads please
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seems about right
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From: Western Burbs of Detroit
I have a question though, you say 8-10 rwhp difference, with the CNC'd 215's making more power. Is that only at peak or over the entire RPM range ??? I'd be most curious to see how the 2 graphs look overlayed, provided it was the same car, same dyno with only difference being the heads. There should be some spots (I'm guessing down low due to port velocity) that make a good bit more hp/tq then the slightly larger as cast 220's.
Whats your experience Ron ?
When the "as cast" heads were released it was feared that they would obsolete the 215 heads, but the reality is everyone wants a fully CNC ported head.
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
When the "as cast" heads were released it was feared that they would obsolete the 215 heads, but the reality is everyone wants a fully CNC ported head.
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 77
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From: Toronto, Canada
That info was from him VVV 
Will be a nice combo with the VRX3 camshaft, cannot wait to get the car back together and on the dyno!
Thanks Ron.
Having the As Cast heads shaved down for 61cc. Will let everyone know the numbers when done
Greg
Thanks Ron.
Having the As Cast heads shaved down for 61cc. Will let everyone know the numbers when done
Greg
Last edited by racebyu; Aug 17, 2009 at 08:44 PM.
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From: Western Burbs of Detroit
Thanks man, but I don't believe my name is worthy of being mentioned with those 2 names. They are the ones in the know, I can only speak from my one experience with tfs 215's. While Ron and Brian have all the vast experience. Therefore I defer to them. Thanks for the mention though. Very kind of you. I'm glad my afr 205 to tfs 215 swap was so helpful to those that followed it. Along with the header and cam swaps.
Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 77
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From: Toronto, Canada
Had the car finally on the dyno today and it turned out very well with the Trickflow "As Cast" heads.
Here is what is on the car at this time"
Honker Intake
LS1 Maf
LS1 ported TB
Old FAST intake (Self ported)
Trickflow "As Cast" heads cut down to 61cc
Comp 850-16's
FAST 36lbs.
7.5 pushrods
VRX3 226/228 114lsa
Kooks 1 3/4 headers
Kooks Cat'd Xover
Corsa Exhaust
3:73 rear
Max Power: 435.09 Max Torque: 397.21
With the Nitto NT05's it might hook up a bit at the track, with a good pair of slicks I dont know how low I could get in the 1/4?
The LS1 Maf and LS1 TB is hurting me a bit for sure but is a blast to drive so far!
Thanks goes out to Ron at Vengeance for all the help and great tech info.
Gotta love those Trickflows.......
Later,
Greg
Here is what is on the car at this time"
Honker Intake
LS1 Maf
LS1 ported TB
Old FAST intake (Self ported)
Trickflow "As Cast" heads cut down to 61cc
Comp 850-16's
FAST 36lbs.
7.5 pushrods
VRX3 226/228 114lsa
Kooks 1 3/4 headers
Kooks Cat'd Xover
Corsa Exhaust
3:73 rear
Max Power: 435.09 Max Torque: 397.21
With the Nitto NT05's it might hook up a bit at the track, with a good pair of slicks I dont know how low I could get in the 1/4?
The LS1 Maf and LS1 TB is hurting me a bit for sure but is a blast to drive so far!
Thanks goes out to Ron at Vengeance for all the help and great tech info.
Gotta love those Trickflows.......
Later,
Greg
I have a set of as cast 220's for 4inch bore on my 408. also with a vengeance VRX7 cam. i dont have any numbers yet, i'm still working out some tuning bugs at this time. the car pulls very hard from 2500 rpm. it is a full weight f-body with a six speed. as soon as my tuning issues are fixed thanks to mike at vengeance i will have some numbers. i know this is a comparison between 215's and 220's. just thought i would chime it about my 220's.
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From: Gateway International Raceway
I have a set of as cast 220's for 4inch bore on my 408. also with a vengeance VRX7 cam. i dont have any numbers yet, i'm still working out some tuning bugs at this time. the car pulls very hard from 2500 rpm. it is a full weight f-body with a six speed. as soon as my tuning issues are fixed thanks to mike at vengeance i will have some numbers. i know this is a comparison between 215's and 220's. just thought i would chime it about my 220's.
When the "as cast" heads were released it was feared that they would obsolete the 215 heads, but the reality is everyone wants a fully CNC ported head.
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
The actual port volume of the TFS 215 is around 219cc, the 220cc as cast intake port is the 215 intake port increased in size digitally by 1cc, so it is effectively exactly the same port. The power difference between the 2 should be in the 10-15 hp range at the crank. The CNC bowl blend program was revamped a couple of months ago which might help the as cast head make more power.
The LS1 heads have the exact same CNC chamber as the 215 heads, the LS2 heads have the exact same chamber as the 225 heads. I like the chamber design of the 215 (LS1) heads better than the 225 (LS2), so I would by the LS1 heads. We have a new CNC program that opens the LS1 chambers up to 4.0" bore like "allngn c5" heads so later on when you get a 4.0" bore engine you can send the heads back and get that program, some hand porting and you'll be good to go.
The only thing I would do to the LS1 heads out of the box is hand blend the CNC bowl blend into the intake and exhaust port short turns, and shape the exhaust port valve guide boss, don't touch the intake seat, not even with a sand roll, you will lose airflow. We have been shocked at how few head porters have worked on these heads, but they are not going to pick up huge cfm like on other as cast heads. Just a few hours of simple hand work is all that is needed to bring these heads up to TFS 215 power levels. Good luck!
In this CNC program youre talking about here... are you only open the chambers out for bigger bore, or are you switching out valves too?
like in allign c5 ´s car? what was done there?
kv Baering
Iceland
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Well I bought the 215 TFS heads and 238 242 cam It will be a few months befor the car is put back together and ran on the dyno....but definitly will post the results, I had to go ahead and get them even if its only 10hp gain! I bought the whole kit though heads cam and rocker arms and etc. $3100 dollars for all cant wait to see what she puts out
On The Tree
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 182
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From: akron ohio
I heard from a very good source that in the hands of the right porter the as cast can be made to out do the cnc versions of the head. He also mentions that he was surprised that no one is playing with the as cast head.
Brian Tooley,would the Trick Flow as cast 220cc heads make more power on my 370 ci 6.0L over my TSP LS6 2.5 heads? I understand i can work the Trick Flow heads down the road for more power but would it be worth it and im locked on power with the heads i have now.